The world God created clearly is one in which he allows sin, hurt, pain, Evil etc. I am fully convinced that being a Sovereign, Omniscient God he *knew *it would be this way and planned it this way. Therefore I do not think we can blame Adam/Eve. For a Universalist, the pain of all, the tears of all, will be done away with and ALL with eat of the tree of life and be healed. So there is no problem for a Universalist that God Allows all this hurt and pain since in the end all is made right and pain/suffering is not a permant experience. Coming to experience good and evil temporaily (in this life) seems to have some value, but was it Neccessary?

Could God have created a perfect world where we never had to experience sin? or is experiencing sin Neccessary? If so why?

We are to be kings in the next age. Kings make laws and judgments. We will judge the angels. Perhaps we are being trained, being raised up as kings. Who knows what the next ages will bring? Who knows the preparations Yehovah has made?
Adam was the great king of the earth, who gave up his position and authority for his bride, as Christ did for His. Adam’s sacrifice brought death to all but, the true King of all, Yeshua, when He had given up His position, authority and body, conquered death and reversed it, bringing life to all. Adam ate of the fruit of evil, it’s seed producing bad fruit - death. Yeshua is the first fruits from among the dead, bringing life. Ultimately, God did take responsibility for Adam’s sin by dying for Him and us. Though, who would be so bold as to blame Him for Adam’s sin? Yehovah is not to be blamed. It is common for christians to blame God and think Him bad but, think good of themselves (the law is bad argument) but, that is not so. If it were so, we would not dare to speak of such things for fear of swift and terrible judgment.
I also think sorrow and joy, two sides of the same coin. Both come from Yehovah for our good. To purge and purify, to bring joy and thankfulness.
It is hard to speculate on if it is possible to have this world be perfect without experiencing sin. I would say, since this is the way God did it, it is the right way. We are a witness to the angels. It may be that that witness is best in this way. Perhaps, the fiery trials in this world of sin are the best means of purification. Perhaps, being a just God that desires relationship and love with His creation mandates some concept of choice to suffer without Him (in some sense). And, maybe it was His choice all along to unveil the faces of the elect to make them radiant, yet still show mercy in saving all. HHMMMM . . . Obviously, your question, I sit in Awe, is generating more questions. I always love reading this forum, it stretches my mind.

Don’t even start Aaron and me on this one! Arghghghghghgh!

Tom

Thanks for the response Kelly.
I see alot of good results from experiencing sin, as you mentioned. Joy, Thankfulness etc. Witness to the Angels.Having a Relationship based on Love which neccesitates choice etc.

This Question originated from my Fiancee, I am not sure I have an answer for why experiencing sin/evil is neccessary. I dont view Adam’s sin as something that surprised God. I see him as coming up with the plan of us experiencing evil, with all foreknowledge, creating the world, and saying “It is good”. The question I cannot answer is why a perfect world without sin was not his plan. Why have us go dark and then light as opposed to just being born in light. I am still considering the Angels situation however.

Sorry, did i rub a sore spot
If this has already been discussed and you can point me to that thread I would appreciate it!

I believe Roman’s 11:32 speaks to this although I’ve been told I’m wrong.

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

You might find the following threads helpful:

Basically, I believe evil (e.g., sin, pain, death) is temporary and exists to highlight good, and that the contrast it provides will ultimately contribute to the post-mortem happiness of all human beings.

My own view is that the overarching message of scripture seems to make it quite clear that death is necessary for rebirth.

Thanks Aaron appreciate it. I’ll check those threads out.

Mel,
I’m in agreement. I don’t know how one can have mercy without offense. If God’s purpose was to have mercy then we HAVE TO disobey; we have to transgress.

I tend to think to experience paritcular functions of love - mercy/forgiveness, yes disobedience is necessary.

Aaron,

The third link you posted is the one that gets to the question I was trying to ask.

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1842

I’ll read through that one now and see if any answers come forth.

You know, I can’t think of a reason why sin/evil would be necessary, except that, if Yehovah planned it, or even allowed it, it must have been the best way to accomplish His will. Like you, I do see that it is useful to bring a clearer understanding and greater thankfulness for our deliverance from it. But, my reasoning says, we would have been better off without it the whole time. I think a perfect world without sin is His plan but, it is not yet accomplished. I will be pondering this mystery. May He bring answers. May today bring you great joy, I sit in Awe!

Well, after searching through those threads, taking everyones input and doing some research, I still don’t have a clear answer. So this one may take a while, or may have an answer that God has not provided yet.

When I read the book of Job I see this person Job in severe pain physically and emotionally. Struck with painful sores and his entire family and flock destroyed. To put it in modern day context it would maybe be like a Tornado victim losing their family, house, job and in the hospital being treated for painful wounds. The person does not lose their faith in God through all this but just asks why . God comes back with a series of questions…which all prove that man has no where near the knowledge or nature of God. Job then places his hand over his mouth realizing how limited his own understanding is.

I think the best we can do on this subject is speculate…with our limited understanding.

And I do believe that for us limited humans experiencing sin does accentuate all that is good and loving and merciful, and at least in my experience the greatest experiences I have had (such as love or forgiveness) were only known after the opposite was experienced.

The question still comes, when in glorified bodies in the new earth in the next age, we will probably be overwhelmed with joy and love but will sin still be possible? My theology seems to indicate No. But if no Sin, then we are basically back to what we were in the Garden of Eden pre-sin, but with knowledge of Good and Evil. So what keeps us from sin? Is it that we have full faith and love in the presence of God? That is hard to imagine, but is that because the only world I know of is one of Sin?

Knowledge of Evil is required to understand the knowledge of Good, one does not have to experience a particular sin for themselves but sin must be perceived in order to gain understanding. When one does not experience or perceive wrong, they do not have knowledge of it and we can see that in our modern parenting and societal values as we are now having ‘entitlement’ generation who knows neither good or evil because they have been sheltered from evil without being wised to it.

Remember that Job is a fictional story, a Hebrew Play, which was incorporated into the Scripture as a very long parable.

The knowledge of Good and Evil.

As Jesus said: "…he who has been forgiven little, loves little”

Interesting. I have never heard that. If you don’t mind, would you share your reasoning with me? I would be interested to hear thoughts on why it would be categorized as a fictional play. Thanks so much, StudentoftheWord.

Peace and blessing,
Kelly

Craig,

Job a fictional play? Can you elaborate? Are you refering to the Babylonian or Egyptian texts that share the same theme of “why the innocent suffer”?

Not only does the Talmud discusses Job. But Most traditional Torah scholarship has not doubted Job’s existence.

He was seen as a real and powerful figure. One Talmudic opinion has it that Job was in fact one of three advisors that Pharaoh consulted, prior to taking action against the increasingly multiplying “Children of Israel” mentioned in the Book of Exodus during the time of Moses’ birth.

It seems The disciples of Jesus were pretty clear that Job was a real person…

James 5:11
As you know, we count as blessed those who have persevered. You have heard of Job’s perseverance and have seen what the Lord finally brought about. The Lord is full of compassion and mercy.

There is also over 30 quotes in the N.T. that are taken from the Book of Job, including N.T writers using the authortative “it is written” when quoting from the Book of Job.

Picking and choosing what books of the bible are inspired is a rather slippery slope is it not?

Or did i miss your point? My apologies if I did. I may have misunderstood what you meant.

Parables are inspired, the book of Enoch is parables and is referred to by the disciples. There is no person named Wisdom, yet Proverbs personifies her, and she is referred to as a ‘person’. There is no picking or choosing what is inspired, it is understanding the purpose of it being provided in the Scriptures. There are plenty of evidence that shows that what is written is based on true events, but not necessarily everything that was written is non-fictional because it’s point was never on history, but the moral story.

In any case, I don’t go teaching anymore, it is up to people do their own research and find their conclusions.

My studies run along the same lines as Steve’s on Job. I had never heard anywhere that it was a play or a parable. I have also read Enoch. I do not see it as a parable either.
I agree, Craig, that wisdom is personified in Proverbs but, that seems to me, quite different than Job, or even Enoch. Also, there is a possibility that even Jesus’ parables were factual stories. There is no way of knowing but, I rather think that Jesus could and maybe even would use a true story to teach others. Who knows, He may have even been addressing someone specific at the moment He spoke. This is purely projection on my part but, I think when it’s all said and done, we will see that everything is fulfilled and, in ways we could never have imagined.

It’s fine.