The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What exactly does "dead" mean, scripturàlly?

I’ll try to back off a bit and give others a chance. after this short post. I’m hoping a trin can weigh in on the "“death of the divine” question; to sharpen it up a bit here is a clarification of concerns Re: 2 natures: (Laurie, I think this fits in with your questions? Because if Christ is defined by 2 natures, the death of those 2 natures needs to be understood)

"Is the theory that Jesus has “two natures” more trouble than it’s worth? In this second half of his short book, Alvan Lamson objects to the doctrine of “two natures” in Jesus that it

-implies that Jesus is not an example of faitng?)h and piety for us to imitate
-makes parts of the New Testament impossible for us to understand (Which “nature” is now speaking or acti
-would make it impossible for Jesus to disavow supreme divinity, as anything he says about his inferiority to God can be referred to his human nature
-is unnecessary, as the exegetical problems it is supposed to solve are more easily solved by less extreme and less arbitrary interpretive moves
-misfits the general tenor of the New Testament, which as a whole portrays Jesus as different being than God, who is in various ways less great than God is
-atonement does not require it, and arguments that the sacrifice victim must be of infinite value and have a divine nature are sophistical
-it is neither explicitly taught nor clearly implied by the Bible, and if God had intended to teach it by means of the Bible, it would clearly taught and emphasized there; but, it is not. Thus, it is unlikely to be part of the content of divine revelation. Nor do Jesus’s disciples, in the New Testament, express the astonishment they would have felt upon being shown that he is God himself."

-from Trinities.Org

Thank you, Dave, for explaining that so well.

In chapter 66 of “Donal Grant,” the GMD novel that I am presently rereading:

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Been elsewhere fighting dragons. :slight_smile:

Back now.

Loving the responses. Thank you. So much to contemplate.

Paidon, to my primary question about the nature of “death”. – and specifically what God’s Son experienced…you believe he had no consciousness after the moment his body died.

Why?

And DaveB…

I am a Trin. :slight_smile:. And a fully convinced universalist.

When I see Jesus, I see God.

I see the *only Life who could overcome - even death. ( whatever death for *us means) .

I am not at all sure concerning understanding any 2 nature theology some theologians have presented.

What is scripture though…is that a body was prepared for Him. Virgin birth and all of that holy conception. Unlike ours who were just born from flesh.

Sent from above. A Life–
Sent from above.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/u0SQkPClLiBry/200.webp#6

This is always a DEEP topic of conversation, with my P-Zombie and Zombie friends. They think they are, the life of the party. But personally, I find them as “dead as a door nail”. :laughing:

https://media2.giphy.com/media/LsFpGvpb9OWbe/200.webp#0

Well, I think what happened experientially to my Lord and Savior who tasted death for every man,
Is important for us all to understand; those preaching good news have also to share His death as part of this good news.

Imo, we cannot understand His overcoming death unless we first understand His very being: Life.
And being Life…How He overcame.

A thoughtful meditation on death and Holy Saturday from a certain Joseph Ratzinger:

thecatholicthing.org/2017/0 … -saturday/

Laurie, I have just searched the New Testament, and have found nothing to indicate that Jesus overcame death. However, I found 8 verses that state that God raised Him from the dead. If He were truly dead, how could He raise Himself? But I understand why you might think so, if you have been singing “Easter” hymns. I have never encountered a single hymn that communicates the truth (as stated by Luke and Paul) that it was God who raised Him from the dead. Rather they make statements such as “Up from the grave He arose,” such statements not being found in the New Testament. We do find statements in the King James such as “He is risen from the dead.” But such statements are NOT tantamount to “He has risen from the dead.” Rather the Greek verb in in the PASSIVE voice which indicates that He RECEIVED the action. The ESV correctly translates it as “He was raised from the dead.” The NKJV slavishly follows the King James with “He is risen.” The NASB incorrectly translates it as "He has risen."There is a great deal of difference between “has risen” and “is risen,” Just as there is a great deal of difference between “The dog has eaten,” and "The dog is eaten (by wolves).

Acts 2:24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.
Acts 2:32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses.
Acts 3:15 and you killed the Author of life, whom God raised from the dead. To this we are witnesses.
Acts 4:10 let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.
Acts 10:40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
Acts 13:30 But God raised him from the dead,
Acts 13:37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.
Romans 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 Corinthians 6:14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.

Yep, and here’s a few more to that list…

It could be seen, through the philosophical and theological lenses, you are wearing.

Reminds me today, of my weekly, Sunil Bali motivational email. Like how different shops look at things: :laughing:

It has been said, that the man Jesus dies but the eternal son dose not at Christ’s crucifixion…when Stephen is stoned in
Acts 7 :59 he calls on the lord Jesus Christ to receive [HIS] spirit. When Christ dies he cries out Father into your hands I commit [MY] spirit Luke 23:46… God is spirit and (IF) the son is of the same eternal spirit as The God, then what spirit is Christ/ the son of God placing in to God the Fathers hands at death ? for the father and son are of the same Eternal/ immortal spirit and nothing ever changes because the son cannot die. I fail to see how Christ was put to death in the flesh and [made] alive in the spirit, when he has always been alive in the spirit as a form of God who is spirit. Hmmmm confusing stuff ! … Maybe …just maybe, Christ actually did die in it’s entirety [ie] conscious of nothing, Until his glorious resurrection, being brought back from the DEAD!! brought back to life by his father and God. Anything less than total death, is no death at all.

Just my opinion.

I think the answer depends on one’s anthropology. Biblical anthropology indicates ‘man’ to be a body, a soul, and a spirit.
Body only = corpse.
Soul - ‘us’, our consciousness, mind, feelings
Spirit - that function of our soul that can relate to God.

‘Spirit’ is dead without God making it alive. Very clear teaching of Paul. This is another reason why I cannot get all excited over full preterist teaching - nothing in scripture that I can find states that Christ’s work make everyone ‘alive to God’ right now - mankind still needs the ongoing ministrations of the Lord through his Spirit - iow, mankind is ‘dead to God’ spiritually until the new birth.

Blimey Dave you took my like back as quick as you gave it :wink: … just kidding.

Do you believe there is any existence of man / women after death, out side of the
resurrection Hope ?

? I didn’t take a ‘like’ away, Benjamin. I like ‘likes’ :slight_smile:
I don’t have any particular insight into the question. I tend to think that the ‘paradise’ Jesus promised to the thief on the cross meant that THAT day the thief would be in paradise.
As for after death existence - no, I don’t think it is something inherent in us that allows us to continue on. We must be resurrected, just like Jesus.
What do you think?

I’m not trying to insult your intelligence
With my post. I know a man of your learning has heard all this before. This is what I think.

Greek/Pneuma/ spirit :-Meaning,

1/. [a] breath of nostrils or mouth.
[b] the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc.
[c] the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
[d] the soul.

2/. [a] a spirit higher than man but lower thanGod [ie] an angel
[b] used of demons, or evil spirits, who
were conceived as inhabiting the bodies
of men.
[c] the spiritual nature of Christ, higher
than the highest angels,the divine nature of Christ.

The way I see it, is we have two choices as to what spirit/ pneuma Stephen gives up via the above definitions. Either Stephen possess the breath of life, which brings to life mans affection, emotion, desire, etc Or Stephen was some form of spirit like that of an angel etc… enveloped in flesh. personally I’m going to go with the Genesis account of mans creation.

Genesis 2:7 (NIV)
7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man [became] a living being.

Adam received the breath of life into his nostrils and Adam [became] a living soul.
Mankind’s breath, oxygenates the blood
That circulates the body giving life to the all tissue and organs [ie] the whole body/soul/ being etc …And the life of the soul is [in] the blood [not] a self existent spirit being,like that of an angel wrapped in flesh.

Hebrew/Neshamah/ breath:- Meaning.
Outline of Biblical Usage

  1. breath, spirit
  2. breath [of God]
  3. breath [of man]
  4. every breathing thing/ including animals
  5. spirit [of man]

Stephen saw the glory of heaven, then he
he [FELL ASLEEP.] Sleep is a metaphor for death through out the bible [ie] Jhon 11:11-14. :—— I think we must be resurrected Like Christ. At the resurrection, I believe we will be flesh and bone, with out blood coursing through out veins for life. We to will die and be made alive in the spirit.

Just my thoughts.

You cannot insult my intelligence - it’s not that large a target lol - don’t worry about that. I was actually wanting to know your thoughts since I don’t have much clarity on the ‘after’ life. It’s still a mystery to me on many fronts.

Pretty much mine also…:slight_smile:

Neither do I, I just try to bop through Gods instruction manual as best as I can. As they say, “it will all come out in the wash sooner or later”

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My belief is that when a person dies, he really dies. That is, he no longer exists. And unless there is a future resurrection when he is made alive again, he will remain dead.

I believe this to be the case with Jesus also. But the Father raised Him to life again on the 3rd day after His death.

It isn’t merely a matter of raising bodies and implanting their “souls” back into their raised bodies.
Rather, it’s a matter of raising the whole person, just as he was before his death.

By the way, the Greek word that is translated as “soul” in many versions, actually means “self.”

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