God does not create, commit, or allow evil!

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

The problem there Gabe is that the title was framed as a statement of fact or opinion, as opposed to a question posed to be discussed. It could have been… “Does God create, commit, or allow evil?” — but that may not have served Hermano’s purposes??

jeff · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

Exactly.

Does one imagine the fall to be an accident and now God is scrambling with plan B? Or is there actually a design in the fall? Romans 11:32 is easily understood to reveal that there was a design in the fall with a purpose… creating the opportunity for God to demonstrate mercy. You see before creation and the fall of creation God knew he was merciful and gracious, but he had no opportunity to exercise this character trait. There was no one to forgive. There was no one to help. There was no undeserved sinner to bless. So God ordained the fall for exactly that purpose, to demonstrate grace.

Now for those offended at this thought. the Scriptures also explain the overflow of God’s grace and mercy will super abundantly overwhelm any pain caused by the fall. We do not yet see the grand conclusion of grace. But Christians, by faith, hold on to the promise that God works all things together for good, for those who are called, in the end, all mankind.

So we have a choice. We can moan how terrible it is that Houdini is bound in the chains of his feeble ‘free will’ or we can smile knowing that God will make a way when there seems to be no way. Of course the Houdini example is an excellent example because Houdini died in the effort because he was a mere man with a feeble will, but we know that God will succeed and finally restore all things by his mighty power.

So what will it be, moaning over man’s feeble will or cheering for God’s mighty will? Yet whether we moan or cheer, Christ will be victorious!

Agnostic_Gabe · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

I was on my cell phone for those two posts above. If you ever see several incomplete thoughts, misspellings, you can be sure it is due to my cellphone usage - Ahem, not that I am the greatest writer anyway - far from it. Anyhow, now I am at a PC and I can probably present my objection more fairly without misrepresenting others.

First, I want to layout what I believe is possible, though far fetched. That alone doesn’t make it wrong, but I want to be fair. Second, I’ll present what I think are some objections.

Ok, what I write below is not what I believe, but I do think it is very possible, though unlikely. The below would not make God a failure, but it does have a few holes in it, I believe. Though I think this fairly represents Hermano and Paidon.

Written by Me(Gabe):
**God does NOT allow Evil and is NOT powerless. His ways of stopping evil are not our ways of stopping it. We naturally view his way as powerless, when it is actually power. **

God was not taken my surprise when Adam and Even failed. In fact, it was part of his plan. The Bible says that God subjected all to futility that he may have mercy on all. It says all of creation groans for restoration. Ok, I paraphrased. Yes, I know. Therefore, this is NOT God’s plan B.

God’s nature is such that he is non-violent and does not force others to do things against their will. Because God’s way is never revenge, or retaliation or repaying evil for evil, he literally cannot stop evil by means our fallen minds expect him too (with the use of force) - So, he does not allow it and he is powerless to stop it because that is NOT the way evil is defeating. Hence, he actually is stopping evil, via his passive inability to stop it. For if he intervened, he would sin against himself, because his stopping evil would be going against his nature, something he can’t/won’t do.

Ok, so the above is definitely a possibility. I have always(Ok, not true! When you were an ECTer Gabe, you were never willing to explore other positions!!!) been willing to challenge my beliefs. This does, in fact, challenge them. In fact, is really does very much appear the way Christ is and if Christ is the directly mirror of God, then, well… Aside from some red lettered words, the Bible is somewhat not a good source. I don’t object to this as I don’t worship the Bible, I worship Christ. Still, I have objections and I am sure my objections are nothing new to my opposition.

Objections

a) If God does not ‘force’ others against their will, then how was I born? Why was I forced to play this game? I didn’t ask (God, please don’t snuff my life out! Just using my reasoning!!!) for this. Now, truly, I am glad I am here in America with food, but I would not be glad if I was raised in some poor ghetto to be sent to the slaughters.

b) Why did create something so sensitive that one move and the whole of creation spins out of control. Suffering is magnified and all of creation suffers a great deal because of someone else, or because it was designed that way from the beginning. Why does a cat eat a mouse? Poor thing. They are cute, by the way. Most creatures are beautiful, and I bet all of them are once seen in the proper light. Though, bugs creep my the heck out. Keep those things away from me, especially those ugly weta’s

c) If the fall wasn’t the goal and the natural state of their earth, then why did god create such violence with it? The cat toys with the mouse as it kills it. It is almost evil the way it does it. But, the cat is just doing what it was genetic designed to do. The mouse is cute, but will be gutted and eaten. In fact, the ecosystem of the earth is so finely tuned that to call it a ‘mistake’ due to the fall is almost unfathomable. Do tell how things worked before this ‘fall’ where no mosquitoes were getting eaten? Where do they get their blood to reproduce? Ahah! Perhaps, before the fall there was no such thing as ‘reproduction’ and therefore there was a static, set amount of animals and insects living perfectly harmonious. Ok, I am on board until Adam accidentally stepped on an ant and killed it, or ate the leafy green with a aphid on it

d) How in the stinking world have we NOT managed to destroy this entire world? Every every dictator has been thwarted. To me, this is a sign of God, not luck that mere humans are someone banded together to defeat the evil forces. Besides, technically speaking, if the way God works is the way I suggested above, then all those people who fought in the world were NOT good people, they were just of a different evil sort (evil for evil). This is by far my biggest objection. Because all the ‘good’ men who thwarted the evil men who want to take over the world were just fighting evil with evil and hence, they were evil. So there were no good guys. Now, scripturally I suppose you could argue that evil is a divided Kingdom, therefore, yes, those who fought to stop Hitler were not good men. Wow. Just wow. I can’t behind that. To be fair, just because I can’t behind that does mean it isn’t true. All of us have some degree of evil and good in us. None of us is wholly good, but I see the men who opposed Hitler as heroes. But maybe that is because I don’t understand Christ.

I think I will remain agnostic on these matters. I’ll continue to do and act what I believe is right, and hence, I cannot accept the position that God does not allow evil, because I believe he does. However, there must be a reason for all of this pain and suffering. Maybe pain and suffering isn’t evil, maybe it is a part of growth.

LLC · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

steve7150:

In Genesis 3 when Eve responds to the serpent it appears to me that she already has a bent toward sin before any so called “fall.” But i may be wrong, i may be missing something, so any feedback would be appreciated. BTW i have no dog in the fight because i am willing to accept that even if there are many things i don’t understand, i’m OK just believing God has good reasons for doing what he did.

“And he said to the woman, Has God indeed said , you shall not eat of every tree of the garden?” And the woman said to the serpent “we may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden, but of the tree in the midst of the garden, God has said, you shall not eat it, nor touch it, lest you die.”
Then the serpent said to the woman ," you will surely not die , for God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food , that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of the fruit and ate. Gen 3.2 -3.6

So the key to me is that before Eve ate, she lusted with her flesh, and her eyes, and the pride of life, the three sins of the world that John mentions in the NT. So was it already in her before Satan tempted her and since she came out of Adam, she would have Adam’s DNA. Also God never said that they could not touch the tree.

So was Eve innocent before the serpent tempted her or did she already have a bent to sin? How do you see it?

Steve, I don’t believe Adam and Eve were the first and only two humans on the face of the earth at the time. As Dennis has mentioned, it is a story. This story was not meant to tell us exactly how everything was created. The Bible is basically telling us that God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in it. That’s as far as it goes for me, and I accept that. So to answer you question, Eve was a human being; and as humans,we all have our own minds to think what we want to think.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

Actually, here are a couple of articles - to support your view, LLC.

Were Adam and Eve the first humans?
BBC - Future - Could just two people repopulate Earth?
Did God create other people besides Adam and Eve?
10 Things I Wish Everyone Knew About Adam and Eve

Let me briefly cite the articles:

The first one is a theological perspective, by Rev. Jim Persinger.
The second is a scientific article - by the BBC
The third is a Christian discussion
The fourth one is a theological perspective

Let me quote from the first article:

You can view his scriptural exegesis

Let me briefly quote, from the fourth article:

Eve may not have been Adam’s first wife. There are actually two creation stories in Genesis, although most readers merge them into one. The story we tend to recall starts with the first verse in the Bible — “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” — and then describes a busy six days in which God creates something different each day, with humans last, and Eve being created from Adam’s rib, followed by a day of rest. But that’s not actually what Genesis says.

In the first creation story — the one with six days and a creator named Yahweh — the woman is created in the same way as the man and at the same time, with no hint that she is secondary. This puzzling difference evolved into the story of Lilith, Adam’s first wife who was ejected from Eden for insisting she should be Adam’s equal.

Lilith is a shadowy and evolving part of Jewish mythology, mentioned only once in the Bible. By the Middle Ages, however, she was a persistent demon feared by Jewish women, because she threatened the fragile lives of newborns.

In the second creation story — the one with Eve being created from Adam’s rib and a creator named Elohim — God clearly creates the woman for the man. In the legend of Lilith, Eve was a replacement wife, subservient to Adam and much less demanding

Hermano · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

That is the intro to a podcast discussing Beck’s book (Reviving Old Scratch: Demons and the Devil for Doubters and the Disenchanted), recommended by Richard Murray on Facebook. I like Richard Beck, but I disagree with him about the question of Satan, and evil.

Here was my FB comment to Richard Murray today concerning his promotion of Beck’s podcast (Murray had been unfamiliar with Beck up to this point, but I was already familiar with him):

I certainly enjoy Beck’s humble tone! Also, he is a very engaging speaker.

And I think he recognized and articulated some of the holes in his own progressive theology quite well. For example, he pointed out that although liberal Christians might prefer the Christus Victor position of the Atonement over the Penal Substitution position, Christus Victor is actually better sustained by a literal Satan than a figurative one—which leaves those same liberals in a wobbly position.

His acknowledgement of his own need to “get in the game” of serving other people, instead of just studying and ruminating, is a good exhortation to me.

Nevertheless, I know that spiritual warfare is NOT primarily about social action. If someone like Mr. Beck believes that there is no literal devil, then that leaves only God or humans as responsible for evil and suffering in this world. And the sure temptation there is then to either 1) demonize God, or 2), demonize people—a conundrum which Beck pays lip service to, but cannot resolve.

And whereas he rightly points out that the missing ingredient in this world is LOVE, he doesn’t really move the conversation forward (in my opinion) as to how to receive or manifest genuine divine love—other than having courteous ecumenical conversations, and fighting for social justice.

Sure, the other side of the coin is that fearful, literalistic fundamentalism has done a great deal of damage to the Church. False religious teachings about the nature of God are a big problem everywhere, and so I am extremely thankful for your ministry, Richard. But Beck is mute on how to read the Bible as a progressive revelation, or about explicating the unipolar goodness of God, or even about the absolute need for the Baptism in the Holy Spirit, and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, (perhaps most relevant for him, ‘the gift of the discerning of spirits’).

All of us desperately need very much more unveiling of JESUS as our intimate personal friend and leader (vs. “Five Keys,” “Seven Steps,” or “Three Principles” type teaching).

“It is finished.” I am all for peeling away layers of rubbish in our lives, in order to see JESUS more clearly, to abide in him, and harmonize with his love song. To do that, I suggest that—in addition to inter-human conversation—thanksgiving and worship and active listening posture us to receive more revelation of him, too.

PS I think you will enjoy Beck’s series on “THE THEOLOGY OF FAËRIE.”

Blessings.

St_Michael · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

God doesn’t directly cause evil He permits Satan and evil agents to destroy. God is essentially light (holiness). The beauty of holiness is humility.

How humble is God?

God is the tree in the forest that
allows itself to die and will not defend itself in front of those
with the ax, not wanting to cause them shame

And God is the earth that will allow itself to
be deformed by man’s tools, but He cries; yes, God cries,
but only in front of His closest ones.

And a beautiful animal is being beaten to death,
but nothing can make God break His silence
to the masses and say,

“Stop, please stop, why are you doing this to Me?”

How humble is God? Kabir wept when I knew.

Kabir

That’s not to say that God doesn’t have wrath. But His wrath is simply removing His mercy from the hearts of evil agents and letting them go their own way. They destroy themselves. Just as it tells us in the N.T. people are handed over to Satan for the destruction of the ego (flesh). The way I see it is that God directly created Satan, Adam and Eve perfect by grace since they didn’t deserve to be created. It was grace that sustained their heart’s. For justifiable reasons only known to Him, God removed His grace from their hearts and they acted according to their own corrupt desires and will. They are therefore responsible for their evil actions.

St_Michael · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

Satan, Adam and Eve sinned because they wanted to. God gave them the freedom to act according to their own corrupt desires and will when He removed His mercy. It was their choice. That’s free will. With God’s mercy on people’s hearts they come to Christ because they want to. This is the essence of true freedom. In the end everybody will get what they most want.

St_Michael · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

Without God’s mercy Satan had no desire for God. That is to say He wanted to rebel. The same for Adam and Eve. With God’s mercy we desire Christ. That is to say we want to come. In heaven all desire for sin is removed. We will still choose what we want. But because all desire for sin is gone we will be like God in that it will be impossible for us to sin. We still choose what we want - love God above all else and each other without sin. Those in hell are separated from God’s mercy. Therefore their hearts harden. They will do what they want ~ Blaspheme and hate God and each other forever. That is to say they have no desire for God and His love.

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

jeff@dgjc.org Said:

Absolutely the second most crazy thing I have heard after Eusebius’s diatribe.

I’m going to smack my wife so she can see how well and how gracious my mercy can be

Gosh, you guys are crazy.

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

[size=150]^^^^got that right Chad^^^^[/size]

anon12438761 · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

davo - You WANT Chad to smack his wife?? That is cold, dude…

More seriously, I agree with the two posts above.

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

I’m of the same opinion, though I don’t discount historicity in the sense that the line between the literal and the legend is more than a little undefined. I view Adam as taken/chosen by God “from the dust of the earth” i.e., humanity, and placed by God as Priest in the garden paradise to serve Him. I see Adam in this sense as proto-Israel, i.e., he is Israel personified… Jesus came as true Israel the last Adam etc.

Like Adam, Israel was given the command/s of God and Paradise, i.e., the land of promise, but through disobedience (covenant unfaithfulness) was exiled, banished from His presence.

Adam’s story is the microcosmic story of Israel… Israel’s story is the macrocosmic version of the Adam story. Both have the Promise of restoration (covenantal resurrection) which ALL found fulfillment in the person of Jesus… True Israel & Last Adam.

Unlike Moses (**Num 20:10, 12; Psa 106:32-33; **Ex 7:1; 4:16]) Jesus did not find equality with God something to be grasped (Phil 2:6; Jn 14:9).

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

Given now she’s the X-factor… be my guest http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/Emoticons/rotflmao.gif

St_Michael · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

I don’t believe God smacks people but this is what is known as a categorical error. God is in a category all by Himself. He cannot be compared to creation or His creatures. There are ways we are like God and ways we are not. God is self-sufficient ~ we are not, God is infinite in wisdom and knowledge ~ we are not; just to name a couple. He sees all of reality past present and future. Grace is unmerited favor and never owed by God to a rebel God hater who doesn’t want to have anything to do with Him. God owes us nothing. Not even an explanation as to why. Logical explanations are infinite in number anyway. Especially when we are dealing with a Being who is infinite in wisdom and knowledge. We are finite and He is infinite. The finite cannot fully grasp the infinite. Indeed, the secret things belong to the Lord:

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever ~~ Deut. 29:29

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways ~~ Romans:11-33

I simply try to follow in the footsteps of Jesus and trust God and do mercy and justice:

He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? ~~ Micah 6:8

God’s secret or sovereign will is His business alone. As God He has rights and prerogatives that His creatures don’t. He will have mercy on whom He pleases and whom He pleases He hardens by withholding mercy. His mercy endures forever for His children.

LLC · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

Randy, thanks for the info. Although it is debated by some, I do believe the Bible presents different accounts of creation. However, to me, there are actually three creation accounts. As qaz has mentioned, I think the author of the second version saw a truth of life and wrote it down in story form. I agree with Davo that there probably is some history behind it. One such possibility is that of a culture clash. The ancient Hebrews were a nomadic people, shepherds and farmers, whose way of life centered around family, clans and tribes. It was also hard work compared to the city life that may have been present in the area at the time. The power structures of these two lifestyles are very different. Whatever the case, it just seems odd to me to suggest that God did not restore Adam and Eve after the fall, when there are plenty of verses that say otherwise.

steve7150 · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

God gave them the freedom to act according to their own corrupt desires

Where did Adam & Eve’s desires come from?

steve7150 · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

Steve, I don’t believe Adam and Eve were the first and only two humans on the face of the earth at the time. As Dennis has mentioned, it is a story. This story was not meant to tell us exactly how everything was created. The Bible is basically telling us that God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in it. That’s as far as it goes for me, and I accept that. So to answer you question, Eve was a human being; and as humans,we all have our own minds to think what we want to think.

OK but to me the main issue is not whether the story or account is literal or figurative but about these desires that erupted in Eve upon Satan’s temptations, were they already in her. It seems to me that they were in her and if so did she have the practical ability to resist. So then Adam could have refused too and it is because of him that sin came into the world, but he and Eve had the same DNA markers i believe.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

steve7150:

Steve, I don’t believe Adam and Eve were the first and only two humans on the face of the earth at the time. As Dennis has mentioned, it is a story. This story was not meant to tell us exactly how everything was created. The Bible is basically telling us that God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is in it. That’s as far as it goes for me, and I accept that. So to answer you question, Eve was a human being; and as humans,we all have our own minds to think what we want to think.

OK but to me the main issue is not whether the story or account is literal or figurative but about these desires that erupted in Eve upon Satan’s temptations, were they already in her. It seems to me that they were in her and if so did she have the practical ability to resist. So then Adam could have refused too and it is because of him that sin came into the world, but he and Eve had the same DNA markers i believe.

Let’s push this question, back to its logical starting point. I came across this article at:

Where Did Satan’s First Desire for Evil Come from?

So please read the article and see if you can answer the title question.

steve7150 · March 9, 2018, 3:30am

LLC wrote:
I don’t believe Adam and Eve were the first and only two humans on the face of the earth at the time. As Dennis has mentioned, it is a story. This story was not meant to tell us exactly how everything was created.

I’m of the same opinion, though I don’t discount historicity in the sense that the line between the literal and the legend is more than a little undefined. I view Adam as taken/chosen by God “from the dust of the earth” i.e., humanity, and placed by God as Priest in the garden paradise to serve Him. I see Adam in this sense as proto-Israel, i.e., he is Israel personified… Jesus came as true Israel the last Adam etc.

One thing to also consider is that it seems that Jesus accepted the creation story as literal since he referred to Adam and Abel as if they were literal people.