The Evangelical Universalist Forum

kolasis Mt25 must be corrective punishment in ancient usage?

Matthew 25:46 “And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian.” (CLNT)

We Universalists often comment re Matthew 25:46 that kolasis refers to corrective punishment or chastening.

To give an idea of the basis for that, the following is from a review of the Ilaria Ramelli tome:

“…in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127).”
journalofanalytictheology.com/ja … 30418a/271

However can the word in ancient usage also refer to purely non corrective vindictive punishment?
Consider the following comment, for example:

“Ramelli and company indulge in a lot of verbal sleight of hand. The word kolazo/ kolasis is used to indicate punishing retribution as well as correction. Thus its use in Wisdom 19:4 where it describes the punishment of drowning the Egyptians in the Red Sea, and in 2 Maccabees 4:38 where it describes the final vengeance due to Andronicus. We see in Ramelli and others like her ideology triumphing over scholarship.”
blogs.ancientfaith.com/nootherf … nion-mean/

There is also the following alleged quote, not mentioned by Ramelli above, to be considered:

“St. Justin Martyr repeatedly used the word aionios as in the Apol. (p. 57), aionion kolasin …all ouchi chiliontaetê periodon, “eonian chastening …but a period, not a thousand years.” Or, as some translate the last clause: “but a period of a thousand years only.” He limits the eonian chastening to a period of a thousand years, rather than to endlessness.”
tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html

Was J.M. not a believer in annihilation? In lists i’ve seen by Ramelli of those who were universalists, J.M. was not included.
What does her book have to say, if anything, about his beliefs?

For additional reading/comments on this subject:

biblehub.com/greek/2851.htm

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2961
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=926
tentmaker.org/forum/arguments-a … r-timoria/

books.google.ca/books?id=D9orAA … ve&f=false

books.google.ca/books?id=-PkSAA … ve&f=false

Yes… IF “unending” i.e., endlessness were the desired meaning then such words the likes of <ἀπεράντοις> aperantois or <ἀκαταλύτου> akatalutou were available, as per for example…

…and so could have been used.

Hi qaz:

Explain what you mean by:

Thanks

Try this…

Well we don’t talk like that… but whatever. “Unto the age” or “into the age” gives that sense of coming into or up to the coming new age… which in the biblical story would be the fullness of the new covenant age that they were coming into that Jesus had inaugurated via the cross/resurrection/ascension.

This is kind of interesting, cause many here on this web site and in the world want/believe in/hope for- a savior who has redeemed them… and yet can’t seem to realize that He truly has came and actually has done that very thing. There always seems to be a need of a penalty or condition involved. The question seems to be how do we change our perspective so we can be assured of the promise?

Do you want to address this?

Yes interesting, because although it is flat out denied (because it is unpalatable to admit) evangelicalism fosters a half-baked redemption… STILL waiting for Jesus to come and finally finish what he began, not realising that IF it isn’t finished YET, as is assumed, then logically speaking their salvation is not yet complete and thus they are NOT yet properly saved (as they understand ‘being saved’) and so look for a future rescue from what they view as a bad, corrupt, evil creation in need of annihilation and a whole new beginning. Little wonder this type of Christendom is little interested in caring for our planet when so many say we’re going to hell in a hand-basket… that at least has been my lived experience and observation.

Yep… even EU seems to want its pound of flesh in terms of a ‘payment/condition’ required by way of ‘the lake of fire’ i.e., Hell Mk II, as a qualifier for Heaven.

Maybe something novel like… believe the texts. :astonished: Again little wonder so many have a limp faith because their hope has been postponed and deferred, or as this says…

The Desire of all nations” came (AD30-70, Hag 2:6-9) and is indeed the “Tree of Life”.

But qaz, what does the bible say?

Also, I am still waiting for your answer.

Thanks

Great references, Origen. Thanks!

A thought that stood out to me today about kolasis in 1 John 4:18, where (in, e.g., Darby Translation) it is translated as “torment”:
There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has torment [kolasis], and he that fears has not been made perfect in love.

But if the proper meaning of kolasis here is “correction,” then
“correction” EQUALS “to be made perfect in love.”

Blessings.

Interesting. So this would be a definite Biblical example of the usage of kolasis being corrective? I see the CLNT translates
it as “chastening” here as well as in Mt.25:46. studybible.info/CLV/1%20John%204

This author looks at a large number of usages of the word around the time of Christ, but notice what he says about 1 John 4:
moments.nbseminary.com/archives/ … -john-418/

Should biblical usage be conclusive re this word? Does the context of Mt.25:46 indicate correction?

Matthew 1:21 (NIV)
21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus,[a] because he will save his people from their sins.”

Re aionion somewhere recently i read a suggested translation of “lasting”. At first glance it looks promising,
though i guess i am getting used to eonian.

Also saw this article that i thought was excellent & made a strong case:
tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

This one, too, quite impressive:
hopebeyondhell.net/articles/ … /eternity/

Now am reading a free online version of (portions of) the book by Ilaria Ramelli. Here’s a bit from it:

“And in Princ. 2,3,5 the end of all aeons is affirmed, coinciding with apokatastasis,
“when all will no more be in an aeon, but God will be ‘All in all’”. In 3,1 Origen
already envisaged “a stage in which there will be no aeon any more”, just as in
Comm. in lo. 13,3: after “aionios life”, which will be in the next aeon, in Christ,
apokatastasis: then all will be in the Father and God will be “all in all”. Similarly
in Sel. in Ps. 60, after the sojourn in the aeons there comes the dwelling, not only
in the Son, but also in the Father, indeed in the Holy Trinity, which is the eventual
apokatastasis.” [p.10]

“In Comm in Is. 1,85 Eusebius also uses 1Cor15:24-28 in describing apokatastasis…
when God will be “all in all” at the end of all aeons.” [p.13]

On p.14 Origen’s view of an end of all aeons mentioned again re Acts 3:20-21.

Page 15…Origen & Nyssas favorite passage re UR…1 Cor 15:28.

Ok qaz I’ll bite… what’s your suggestion?

Hi qaz

you said:

What I maintain is that the quality is the ESSENSE of Christ. He came to show that without the Father we could not: 1 breath, 2 see, 3 hear, 4 know where the wind comes from… etc. We could NOT EXIST :astonished:

You also said:

I would say that the first and foremost trait of someone who claims to be a believer in Christ would be forgiveness. The Gospel of Matthew is where we need to be. Chapters 5 through 7. I think Christ tells us how to live on this earth in this life. If we heed His commands, things will work out IN HIS WAY. And I also will hang my hat on the verse that says EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW! There is going to be submission either in this life or when you meet Him in eternity! :open_mouth:

Look forward to your response! :smiley:

qaz, as to the question I was interested in, you said:

That is an interesting statement and I would be interested in what you meant by it. :smiley:

I’m pretty sure he is saying that God is described as being “aionios,” and in Matt 25, the life of the sheep as well as the “punishment” of the goats are described with the same word.

jn 17:3 this is life eonian…knowing Christ Jesus…not endless life with the angels in heaven
I suppose our Lord could have put all doubt re questions of duration out of question by saying
that, but He didn’t.

luke 18:
29 Now He said to them, “Verily, I am saying to you that there is no one who leaves house, or wife, or brothers,
or parents, or children on account of the kingdom of God,
30 who may not by all means be getting back manyfold in this era, and in the coming eon, life eonian.”
concordant.org/version/literal-n … e/03-luke/

I wonder what the disciples thought of the duration of life aionion in the coming age upon hearing those
words. Were they aware of aion/ion being used of limited time periods in ancient writings and the
common spoken language of the people?

Jesus later said that he had many things to tell them but they could not bear it. After his resurrection
he inspired Paul and John to write re not only the age to come, but multiple ages. even an end of the ages.
Much later Origen spoke the same and of what is after zoe aionion.

Even if for various sound reasons aionion[lit.eonian] life should be interpreted as eternal life
in the NT, does it follow that it always should be interpreted as such in the Scriptures when
applied to other things, such as how long Jonah was inside of a sea creature?

Life aionion is a topic well worth discussing & thinking about.

evangelicaluniversalist.com/foru … =16&t=2918

kingdomandglory.com/eon2/eon3.htm

theheraldofgodsgrace.org/Byn … nTimes.htm

tentmaker.org/articles/compa … _aion.html

martinzender.com/Zenderature … l_life.htm

The following online book makes many comments re aion & aionion & life aionion that some might be interested in,
though the author, as far as i can tell from reading a few pages, favors endless annihilation:

The Geography of Hell in the Teaching of Jesus: Gehena, Hades, the Abyss …
By Kim Papaioannou

books.google.ca/books?id=-otNAw … of&f=false

He remarks that in Mk.10:30 (cf Lk.18:30) Jesus links directly the concepts of eonian life
and the “eon to come”. See p.46-7. Yet Paul & John speak of multiple future ages. Does
this, then, limit the duration of “life eonian”? Not in his perspective, it seems.