The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Free Will

Hi all,
I’m Chuck. I’m new and this is my first post aside from the intro.

After browsing around a bit I notice there is a high level of intelligence here.
I am delighted in that an look forward to having discussions here.

My 1rst topic of “Free Will” was chosen because I have a unique, yet scriptural, outlook on what free will is. My belief is from what I read in the Bible and would like to get some chatter about it.

First off, I would like to give my definition of free will.
Free will to choose between good and evil. Not between an apple or peach. Or to help the poor or the sick.

Next I would like to give my understanding of free will. What is needed to have it. And where did it come from. Who made it.
So I am going to have to give a somewhat long version to insure and hope that I am understood. I speak plainly and simply and would also appreciate replies to do so. Not everyone is highly educated and Jesus spoke simply.

We are made things. Anyone who believes in God would not argue that. So even our minds are made. How we think, how we ration, how we come to any conclusions are directly related to how we were programmed. If one believes that, then he would have to conclude that we are not responsible for how we believe. God made me this way. We had nothing to do with how we would come out. We did not get to choose out hair color, eye color, physical looks or our MIND. We opened our eyes and took our first breath having no clue.

Also it is written that we are temples made to house a Spirit. I am of the understanding that the Spirit controls the actions and the choices in regards to good and evil. I will use Jesus as an example of One that only did good and what He said.

I did not come to do My will, but the will of the Father who sent Me. <that verse says it all but I will elaborate on it anyway. If free will is so important and we must willingly choose to believe as is taught in most Christian based denominations, why would Jesus say that? He is clearly saying He does not do His own will, only the will of the Father. He is not saying He chooses to do the will of the Father. And He is saying He has a will but does not do it. He only does the will of the Father. “I only say what I heard from the Father” “I only do what the Father commands me to do”

So it appears He is conscience and aware of who He is and what is going on. And He explains it pretty simply. Forgive me for not giving references, I assume you are familiar with scripture. If you are not, you can find most of what I quote in the Book of John. It is also written that “Gods Spirit” was with Him always. Except for the brief time when He took all sin on Himself and died. “Father, why has thou forsaken me”

So we have a Man that has Gods Spirit with Him always. Not the Holy Spirit also called the comforter. It is also pretty obvious that God is running the show that the Lord does. As Jesus says multiple times that He only does as commanded by the Father.

Now lets move to another example. A man possessed by an evil spirit or demon. Or for this example we will use the man that had Legion. It is pretty clear, if you are familiar with the story, that the demons controlled the man. As is evident when Jesus called them out and the man no longer had them, He became normal again. So when we look at this man while he had demons, was it his fault? Was he doing his own will. Would he be held accountable for the evil he did? Absolutely not. Something evil took over control of that man. The man was defenseless. Not even able to ask for help.

And the same goes for Jesus. Yet the Spirit that was in control of Him only did Good. But that Spirit was in control. Jesus was not and says so. Being temples also says so.

This subject can go off in many directions so I will end with one last example and look forward to it going off into a full spectrum.
"If a man hears my words and rejects them, I do not judge him. He has “that” which judges him already-The Word will judge “him” on the last day.

It is clear to me what the man has “that” is an evil sprit.
And what the Word will judge is “that” evil Spirit. called “him” I know the "him is not the man, for Jesus just said He does not judge the man. And Jesus is the “Word” so with that knowledge, the ‘him’ here can not be the man but what the man has. And if you know English, that dash clearly shows the next sentence is related to the sentence connected by the dash-. Here’s a pasted copy of the exact way it is written in the NKJV

John 12:47
47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him—the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.

KJV
47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
(In this case the : connects the the last part of the sentence with the next phrase. The way it is written clearly is meant to say, that what the man has will be judged.

So by that, it is also saying: it is not the mans fault he rejects the words. Not to mention that Jesus said plain and simply that He did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. And we all know that men are part of the world and the Creation of the world. Demons and fallen angels and Satan are not.

So that should be enough to get the topic rolling. Thanks for having me.

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_uU99eQfKRF8/S--VSXRt21I/AAAAAAAABG4/dRg0wKzcZ-Q/s1600/illusion[3].png

Free will has been discussed before. I think it proves to be a bit more difficult to deal with, for those who are dogmatic evangelical universalists. But not an impossible task. There are other threads dealing with this topic. I hope that there is a way to list them. I remember one that has the topic “free will” and “strange bird”. I think the recent Angry Birds movie triggered that. And this topic has been discussed by philosophers and theologians, throughout the centuries. And it raises some questions for me, based on the current AMC TV hits:

Do Zombies in the Walking Dead have free will?
Does Preacher - who is bounded to Genesis (a hybrid of an Angel and Devil mating), have free will, to chose between good and evil?

https://sophmoet.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/free-will.jpg

I think once I answer these two questions, I can incorporate their insights, into any free will discussion here. :exclamation: :laughing:

And I might wrestle with additional questions. If a human was bit by a werewolf, vampire and zombie, would the forces of determinism, dictate what they turn into - and in which order :question: :laughing:

https://qph.is.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-8332678b5586aa08ec77df2dc288b9e8?convert_to_webp=true

I found a variation of that question intelligently discussed, in If a vampire bites a zombie, would it turn into a zombie or will the zombie turn into a vampire? Isn’t this a variation of the old question: What comes first? The chicken or the egg?

Not sure what that means. In favor or against. ???
Does this scripture sound familiar? “Wager for sin is death” “By one mans sin, all die”

Again, not sure where you stand. And are you sure it is God that is doing the punishing? If the law said, “Thou shalt not consume poison” and a person ate poison, what killed the person? The poison or God?

I never said God forces people to sin. The Bible says he hardens hearts. Would that be the same?

Oddly enough, this actually makes sense, too me.

Question is, are we in control? Do we have a free will or are we just witnesses?

I have no idea what this poster is trying to say other than, “I don’t want to discuss it. Here are some places where it has been discussed.”
And then posted funnies. I wasn’t humored. And my points are not found and discussed in those references.

Sooo, anyone willing to have an intelligent discussion or is this just a comedy show on theology?

Actually, it’s both an “intelligent discussion” and “a comedy show on theology” (and everything else, for that matter).

Don’t let the humor fool you, grasshopper. It will all be explained shortly :exclamation: :laughing:

First, some questions and observations:

If you obtain your positions on free will chiefly from your own spin on Biblical interpretation, it might (actually would, in most cases) put you at odds with various Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant denominational and non-denominational theological positions…Or professional philosophers (usually, professors with PhD philosophy degrees)… Or - for that matter - positions of universalists and non-universalists, on this forum. What do you say to those, who have a different theological stance? Or professional philosophers, who may or may not be Christian? Keep in mind, that professional theologians have different opinions on theological matters (take, for example, infallibility vs Inerrancy. Or reconciling Genesis with evolution, big bang theory and old earth). Or looking to other sources, besides Sola Scriptura. Or even other scriptural canons. Like Eastern Orthodoxy (i.e. with their own canon), with Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And the Roman Catholic Church (i.e. with their own canon), with the Magisterium. What do you say to them all?

Not everyone here is Trinitarianism What do you say to those who believe in Biblical Unitarianism and other non-Trinitarianism positions, yet still claim to be Christian?

Take - for example - your position on demons. Not everyone here believes they are real (I do, by the way). Some here might say they can be explained away by social science experiments on fear. Or by hard science and evolution.

How would you distinguish between a person having an organic disorder (as determined by a GP medical doctor, referred specialists and standard medical tests), a mental illness (as determined by a psychiatrist or equivalent and the DSM manual), and someone possessed by a demon and/or unclean spirit?

[list]It sounds like some form of Theological determinism, in this and your other biblical commentaries. Am I correct? Please read though Determinism and sub-category A Response to Theistic Determinism and Weaknesses of Determinism.

Where do you stand on heredity and environment?[/list:u]

How deep does that rabbit hole run? Do thoughts and feelings influence reality, as those in the Health and Prosperity Gospel…or New Thought Christianity - might claim? Why or why not? Are miracles still present, as the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Pentecostal Christian traditions (even non-Christian traditions, like Sufism) still claim?

How do you handle moral dilemmas, like those found here (i.e. 9 Moral Dilemmas That Will Break Your Brain) :question: :

If you look at my signature at the bottom, you find links that have further references to my positions. Particularly:

Anglo-Orthodox + Theosis - which tells which church position I follow
Holy Fool Trainee + Nerdy P-Zombie Wannabe; - Which would explain the cartoons and humor. The Holy Fools path is a valid, historical Christian path
Inclusivist (Positions for the Lost) + Purgatorial Conditionalist - which explains my position on salvation
Theology - where you see in 46 or so pages, my position on theology
Holistic Medicine (i.e. Native Healing) + Wisdom Tradition (i.e. Zen/Yoga) - which explains how I see medicine and other faith traditions

In essence - my position on free will - is this. We are really co-creators of reality. Our thoughts and feelings do influence reality. So we do have the ability to freely choose our destiny - to some degree. So New Thought Christianity and the Health & Prosperity gospel, has some bearing here - within a traditional Christian framework. But this is governed by the rules of morality and ethics. And if you follow this path 100%, then you too can be a channel for the miracles found, in Christ and the apostles (i.e. Talks with a Sufi Shaykh). But most of us - like me - still struggle. But I also side with open theism.

As far as humor and Holy Fools , in Simeon the Holy Fool, we find this:

And to reality and free will, I like this quote:

But I have to warn you, Chuck. I can also get very deep into subjects like theology, philosophy, psychology, science, computer science, literature, foreign language, etc. Or into things like comic books and vaudeville comedy teams (i.e. Three Stooges, Abbot & Costello, Laurel and Hardy, and the Marx Brothers). But my usual method, is to ask questions, in the manner of Socrates. And try initiating historical and contemporary Holy Fools (i.e. Simeon the Holy Fool). :exclamation: :laughing:

But don’t be too hard on folks here, Chuck. Since free will has been discussed so often here, they just don’t feel like Flogging a dead horse

Most early Christians believed in free will, that is, the ability to choose. They denied that events were fated to occur or that God caused people to behave as they do:

**100-165 AD : Justin Martyr **
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestinated that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.” (First Apology ch.43 )

[About the year 180, Florinus had affirmed that God is the author of sin, which notion was immediately attacked by Irenaeus, who published a discourse entitled: “God, not the Author of Sin.” Florinus’ doctrine reappeared in another form later in Manichaeism, and was always considered to be a dangerous heresy by the early fathers of the church.]

**130-200 AD : Irenaeus **
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God…And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice…If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?” (Against Heresies XXXVII )

**150-190 AD : Athenagoras **
“men…have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless)…”(Embassy for Christians XXIV )

150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, book 1, ch.17)

154-222 AD : Bardaisan of Syria
“How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation? —if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him…And how in that case, would man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman…they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures.” (Fragments )

**155-225 AD : Tertullian **
“I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God’s image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature.” (Against Marcion, Book II ch.5 )

**185-254 AD : Origen **
“This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition.” (De Principiis, Preface )

“There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will.” (De Principiis, Book 3, ch.1 )

**250-300 AD : Archelaus **
“There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he chooses.” (Disputation with Manes, secs.32,33 )

260-315 AD : Methodius
“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, discourse 8, chapter 16 )

**312-386 AD : Cyril of Jerusalem **
“The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator by necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature.” (Lecture IV 18 )

**347-407 AD : John Chrysostom **
“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost…it depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help…It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and bring to the end.” (On Hebrews, Homily 12 )

120-180 AD: Tatian
“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (Address to the Greeks, 11)

Died 180 AD: Melito
“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, page 754)

163-182 AD:Theophilus
“If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 27)

130-200 AD:Irenaeus
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37)

150-200 AD:Clement of Alexandria
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

155-225: Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5)

I believe in free will, and I think Paidion has made some very good points. Jesus also says that He gave His life willingly. I would say then that it was His own choice to do so. Chuck, in your post, you mentioned John 12:47. To me, this could mean several things. The Word is God’s truth. If anyone hears the truth but does not believe it, then he has that ( the truth/word) which will judge him. For example,someone tells you not to put your hand in a fire because it is hot, and it will burn you. If you don’t believe this and go and do so regardless of this truth, the consequences of your actions have just informed you that you were wrong. Another example might be that God said “Thou shalt not steal”. If one steals, those who uphold the laws of God have the authority to judge. Or it may be that when we do something wrong, our conscience will eat at us until we confess the truth.

Hi, Chuck. I added this commentary in a prior post:

It sounds like some form of Theological determinism, in this and your other biblical commentaries. Am I correct? Please read though Determinism and sub-category A Response to Theistic Determinism and Weaknesses of Determinism.

If you try to spin a thesis on free will in a Christian setting, you will find it necessary to incorporate the discipline of philosophy - in addition to theology.

And you will find I usually embrace both an “intelligent discussion” and “a comedy show on theology” (or any other discipline brought up). After all, I would not want to dishonor any contemporary and historical philosophers, theologians, scientists or Holy Fools. :laughing:

If I set a bunch of children free into a playground to play, are they free?

They are free to play, but they are not free to leave.
They are free to argue, but they are not free to beat one another up. There are limits to their freedom, and the limits are reduced as they grow older.

Int he parable of the bad steward the landowner sets up a vineyard. He places a watchtower in the center and a wall around it and he allows the steward to enjoy the fruit of the labor and the harvest of the land.

The steward is free to beat the workers, but only for so long. Is that free?

In another parable the landowner sends servants to require a portion of the profit of the land. They beat the servants and send them away empty- eventually slaying the landowners son thinking to steal the estate by default.

Were they free?

Yes, until the landowner came and cut them in pieces.

There is freedom within limits. The limits are released as responsibility grows until the adoption. That is where the child becomes a trusted adult member of the family, free to till, to labor, to reap, to invest, to support the family in a freedom moderated only by the responsibilty to love the family and the strangers and aliens God might send into their midst.

And that is total freedom, when that family member is in union and harmony from the heart with the Head of the House, the Chief Steward, the Lord of the Manor and the Landowner. Those who are truly free are portals to freedom. Fountains of glorious liberty.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body Romans 8

Eaglesway, I don’t think anybody claims that having free will implies that one can do anything he wishes.

  1. Clearly we cannot fly like a bird. We cannot will ourselves to move instantly to Mars, etc.There are things we cannot do because of physical limitations.

  2. If we are sane, we will not hold our hand in a fire. There are things we usually choose not to do because of the natural consequences.

  3. If we want to avoid penalties, we will not drive through a red light or fail to pay our income taxes. There are things we usually choose not to do because of the legal consequences.

None of the above implies that we do not have free will in the usual sense of the term.

If we do not have free will in the usual sense, then we suffer illusion. What we think we are freely choosing has actually been pre-determined or fated. We could not have done otherwise.

The way I define “free will” is as follows:

I have “free will” if, after having chosen to perform action A, it is a fact that I could have chosen not to perform action A.

I believe Paidion does have the correct understanding of Free Will. I like to quote from the first paragraph, of the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy on Free Will. It will give us much to ponder - regarding a definition. And it won’t raise as many eyebrows, if I quoted from Wiki or an online dictionary:

This part of the quote should satisfy Eagle’sways’ concerns:

I find this part of the quote very important:

Can Chuck, or anyone else here - for that matter - suppose we can come up with a consensus, on this forum :question: And that’s not counting all the big name theologians, who have argued about the “particular sort of capacity of rational agents to choose a course of action from among various alternatives” :exclamation: :laughing:

But I’ll also give you the Wiki definition of Free will:

Just so Chuck (or anyone else, for that matter), won’t complain I’m NOT being true, to the Holy Fools tradition. I have included this: :laughing:

From Philosophical zombie:

Note to Chuck: If you want a deterministic view of free will, perhaps the site Breaking the Free Will Illusion might help. Let me quote from his About page: :laughing:

Meanwhile, I’ll try to figure out if P-Zombies have free will or not :question: :laughing:

Suppose Universalism is true. But the purification process just exiles folks and turns them into something subhuman (i.e. P-Zombies). Would they know when their purification time is up? When it’s time to return to God and his kingdom? Or be able to open themselves up to God’s love? Especially if they lose the image of God in themselves :question:

I agree. I was trying to make the point that we are free to choose actions that have consequences, which we reap if we choose them. Then we are free to repent and cry out to God for mercy. But over all the freedom of men is a canopy of love. God also chooses, draws, elects, and foreknows men. Yet He also rejects and holds them accountable for their actions. He also disciplines them, bridles them and binds them in futility until they learn freedom through repentance. We are not allowed to see through that veil clearly in this age, so we trust and walk in faith, knowing He holds it all together- and at the same time we hear the exhortation to yield our bodies as a living sacrifice, whole and entire, which is and acceptable offering that proves the wisdom of His will. The wise listen. The foolish rebel. They all suffer and God loves them all through it untill he is everything in everyone. Just read Psalm 107

Oh give thanks to the Lord, for He is good,
For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
2 Let the redeemed of the Lord say so,
Whom He has redeemed from the hand of the adversary
3 And gathered from the lands,
From the east and from the west,
From the north and from the south.
4 They wandered in the wilderness in a desert region;
They did not find a way to an inhabited city.
5 They were hungry and thirsty;
Their soul fainted within them.
6 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble;
He delivered them out of their distresses.
7 He led them also by a straight way,
To go to an inhabited city.
8 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
9 For He has satisfied the thirsty soul,
And the hungry soul He has filled with what is good.
10 There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the shadow of death,
Prisoners in misery and chains,
11 Because they had rebelled against the words of God
And spurned the counsel of the Most High.
12 Therefore He humbled their heart with labor;
They stumbled and there was none to help.
13 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble;
He saved them out of their distresses.
14 He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death
And broke their bands apart.
15 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
16 For He has shattered gates of bronze
And cut bars of iron asunder.
17 Fools, because of their rebellious way,
And because of their iniquities, were afflicted.
18 Their soul abhorred all kinds of food,
And they drew near to the gates of death.
19 Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble;
He saved them out of their distresses.
20 He sent His word and healed them,
And delivered them from their destructions.
21 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
22 Let them also offer sacrifices of thanksgiving,
And tell of His works with joyful singing.
23 Those who go down to the sea in ships,
Who do business on great waters;
24 They have seen the works of the Lord,
And His wonders in the deep.
25 For He spoke and raised up a stormy wind,
Which lifted up the waves of the sea.
26 They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depths;
Their soul melted away in their misery.
27 They reeled and staggered like a drunken man,
And were at their wits’ end.
28 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
And He brought them out of their distresses.
29 He caused the storm to be still,
So that the waves of the sea were hushed.
30 Then they were glad because they were quiet,
So He guided them to their desired haven.
31 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
32 Let them extol Him also in the congregation of the people,
And praise Him at the seat of the elders.
33 He changes rivers into a wilderness
And springs of water into a thirsty ground;
34 A fruitful land into a salt waste,
Because of the wickedness of those who dwell in it.
35 He changes a wilderness into a pool of water
And a dry land into springs of water;
36 And there He makes the hungry to dwell,
So that they may establish an inhabited city,
37 And sow fields and plant vineyards,
And gather a fruitful harvest.
38 Also He blesses them and they multiply greatly,
And He does not let their cattle decrease.
39 When they are diminished and bowed down
Through oppression, misery and sorrow,
40 He pours contempt upon princes
And makes them wander in a pathless waste.
41 But He sets the needy securely on high away from affliction,
And makes his families like a flock.
42 The upright see it and are glad;
But all unrighteousness shuts its mouth.
43 Who is wise? Let him give heed to these things,
And consider the lovingkindnesses of the Lord.

It is a very deep mystery we see through a glass darkly. For every facet in the diamond there is another facet, beautiful and brilliant. Thank God for Jesus Christ, in whom are hid all the treasures of the wisdom and knowledge of God. Truly knowing Him brings us into the finished work, that Sabbath rest, that fruitful land- and the balance of understanding.

I believe in ‘free will’. I believe we are in a setting which God has ordained for us, and within that, we are able to make choices. I do not believe the settings are random, but carefully orchestrated by God, who tailor made each one for us. He made us, and He knows what it is we have to learn about Him and about ourselves in this journey, here on earth. I also believe we can say no to God, but can only say yes with help and grace from the Holy Spirit.

I believe the issues of free will comes from a spiritual battle, and the end result is to teach us who we are, who God is, and most importantly to trust God. We need to learn to empty ourselves of our carnal nature, and to allow the Holy Spirit to fill us with truth, wisdom, and love. It is a preparation for the world to come…an important phase of our learning.

I believe we cannot fully understand how it works, because we look at it from the side of the tapestry that is jumbled and twisted. When we see the other side of the tapestry, from our heavenly view, it will become a glorious picture.

I also believe the choices we are given are for us to choose those things that bring glory to God. God has a plan for each of our lives and to learn and know what it is, we need to know God, and to walk with Him, just like Noah did. He will be ‘a lamp for my feet, a light on my path’. Learning to trust Him is just so very, very important.

Sort of like a video game, He will lead us through the darkness of the jungle, into the marvelous light.

But, what I think we will discover is that the journey is not like Indiana Jones, as one might suspect, but more like Dorothy, in the Wizard of Oz. We always had the answer …it was in our grasp…but we don’t always see it…it is to ask our Almighty God, to take us home, and trust, with the trust of a child, that He will.

D.

Horse walks into a bar …
Bartender says, “You come in here a lot, are you an alcoholic”

Horse says, “I dont think I am”
And Poof! the horse disappears …

(Robin)
What?

(Sophie)
It’s a philosophical joke …

(Robin)
ummmmm …Ahhhhh! Da cart before the horse!

Dandelion, I agree that life is a learning experience. However, in saying that the settings are not random but carefully orchestrated by God, to me this sounds like we are just a bunch of lab rats. It sort of reminds me of the movie, The Truman Show. I think that the choices we make, whether good or bad, come with a set of responsibilities. Are we willing to accept the responsibilities of such choices? People seem to think that the “Garden of Eden” comes about through no effort at all. Choosing God’s way of life also involves a lot of work and responsibility. Many try to avoid this and are deceived into thinking that there is an easier way. The burdens of our sinful choices turn out to be much heavier than expected and produce no fruit in the end. On the other hand, God’s way of life promises enjoyment of the fruits of all of our labor. The choice is ours to make.

This (i.e. the settings are not random but carefully orchestrated by God,) does raise more questions than answers, as LLC has pointed out. Suppose I was born as a child of:

Donald Trump
Kim Jong - the leader of North Korea
Someone born into poverty, as a member of the untouchable class in India

Can you suggest ways, Dandelion, that any of these scenarios would be constructive?

In the first one, I could become a spoiled rich kid. So I can grow up learning how to get rich - at the expense of others.
In the second, I would have no access to religious instruction - unless it was clandestine. But I would be trained to rule a country - at the expense of the peoples’ liberties, lives and human rights.
In the last one, I might commit suicide, be forced to become a Hindu, or believe that I can never rise out - of the Untouchable class setting.

I know my comparison makes it sound like I think the road is carefree and without consequences, but that was not my intent. Rather, I wanted to convey that if we give our lives over to God, and follow His path, the way is much simpler and less treacherous. I well know that this life is not always easy, in this earthly sense, and I have lived very difficult consequences of some of my choices. I know when I did not follow the Spirit, even though I did not always recognize Him, my gut knew when something was wrong. When I insisted on my own ways, then I stumbled and fell. Thank God He was always there to help me get back up again.

I think the settings are orchestrated by Him. Where we are born; to whom; what neighborhood we grow up in; if we have a music talent or a gift for teaching and so on. We do not get to choose many things about our lives. That is the way it is. We have a journey to walk, a road to navigate…within that, there are many choices to make. We must keep looking to the light on the path. Noah was blameless we are told…He walked with the Lord. That is our mission, should we decide to accept it…to walk with the Lord.

This is what I want written on my gravestone:

2 Timothy 4:7

**I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.
**

But,it is not I who had the strength, but God who carried me, if I allow Him to. When I am weak, then He is strong.

D.

Dandelion said

I tend to agree with this. :smiley:

Don’t worry. Religianity is there to tell you what your road is, and to ensure you stay in it as they see it, and to make sure you dont “think” and “feel” your way off of it. :laughing:

Dandelion, I don’t think that God chooses the settings for us. What would be God’s purpose for placing a child in an abusive home where he is beaten everyday by his parent? As Randy poses the question, is there a constructive purpose for such scenarios? Is he to learn a lesson of some sort? This sounds like a cruel God. Or would it be that the child is paying for some sin that he has committed in a past life, as some people would believe?