How biblical is UR?

Dani · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

Hello,
I would like to know how biblical is UR actually?
Recently I wrote to a Pastor through FB about UR.
Here a part of our chat:

ME: is there any scripture passage that says that in the very end (not on judgment day)
there will be people left who did not choose to enter the kingdom of God through Jesus?

22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

… so that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL

1.Corinthian 15,22-28, NIV

Where does hell fit in, in this GOD BEING ALL IN ALL?

PASTOR: Interesting argument, not biblical.
The Bible teaches very clearly there will be a judgement
and the second death is the destination for all that reject the Savior.
Regarding English, if you want a correct Bible translation you should not use the NIV.

So what do you say?

Love and Shalom
Dani

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

Well, Dani, we need to look at the science of statistics to get answers. And we have to ask questions like:

How many people believe in God in the USA
How many people attend church in the US

http://www.pyrczak.com/cartoons/gifs/res.gif

Of course, statistics can’t look into the heart, to see what a person actually feels, etc., unless they are questioned or polled - with the right questions.

There is a CNN article entitled 1 in 4 Americans Don’t Believe in God; Lack of Trust in Local Churches Cited as a Reason Why Adults Are Leaving the Faith
In the website Fast Facts about American Religion, it says this:

Q: How many people go to church each Sunday?
A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend.
As added proof for the accuracy of this smaller percentage of churchgoers, if 20.4% of Americans (approximately 63 million in 2010) attended the nation’s 350,000 congregations weekly then the average attendance would be 180 people per congregation which is almost exactly the figure that numerous research studies have found.

Remember this. You can have a US public library, adult reference librarian, do a search for statistical data on American religion. But the answers are only as good as what the statistical methodology and survey population provides.

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

Hi Randy… I could be wrong but I think Dani’s “US” = universal salvation.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

If that’s true, then they probably don’t have much statistical data on that.

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSNsE-jo_5qfm-HR-fWXcSOdhSk3nK_hFByusyskzo9zhGrHtjy

So, Dani, can you clarify what US stands for - in this thread’s context

maintenanceman · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

You Guys!!!

Cindy_Skillman · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

Funny boys! Dani means Universal Salvation. Look at the context.

Dani, we usually use UR (universal reconciliation) or CU (Christian universalism) or (in Jason’s case) Kath–which also means “universal.” Sometimes you’ll see PUR, which stands for “Purgatorial Universal Reconciliation.” Just telling you this to avoid further confusion.

So . . . UR/CU/US and (imo) PUR have very good Biblical foundations. If you’d like a compilation of (some of) the many scriptures that support universal reconciliation, I recommend Gerry Beauchemin’s free book, “Hope Beyond Hell.” It’s available as a PDF or a hard copy (donations requested for the hard copy but not required) at www.hopebeyondhell.net . It’s available for Kindle at Amazon, also free last time I checked.

The funny thing here is that you gave the pastor some compelling scripture which he ignored. He merely asserts with NO arguments at all, that UR is NOT biblical. Of the two of you, I’d say that YOU and not he made the best argument. He made no argument at all. I can’t argue against what he’s told you, because all he’s told you is basically, “I’m right and you’re wrong. So there!” I’m seriously not impressed with this guy.

davo · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

…I just love all the crazy comics and clips Randy comes up with. His neurons don’t get much of a break, lol.

Dani · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

HAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHA
Sorry, US stands for Universal Salvation
Greetings
Dani

Dani · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

I think I would prefer the term: Messianic Universalism (MU).
Do you think I could go with it?
Greetings

steve7150 · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

PASTOR: Interesting argument, not biblical.
The Bible teaches very clearly there will be a judgement
and the second death is the destination for all that reject the Savior.
Regarding English, if you want a correct Bible translation you should not use the NIV.

Most URs believe in a judgment and a second death or lake of fire but that it has a remedial purpose. There are plenty of verses but my fav is Rev 22.17 where anyone is invited to drink from the water of life. That’s 5 verses from the end of the bible & I take Revelation sequentially so finally God’s will is done on earth as it is in heaven which Jesus prayed for.
BTW the NIV is a thought for thought bible translation not word for word and it’s OK but the NASB is more accurate.

Cindy_Skillman · March 9, 2018, 3:16am

If Dani’s experience is anything like mine, Steve7150, in searching the web for translations, the NIV is just the one that usually comes up first. There are no correct translations imo, no “best” translations. They all have their victories and their failings. Translation is just too complex for any of them to be perfect. Even if we could read the NT in the original Greek with the understanding of a literate Greek of the day who was familiar with Hebrew teachings, we’d still have a lot of interpreting to do. And we might get it wrong. Did Paul even know for SURE what his words fully meant? Probably not–not if he was inspired. He may well have written many things the full import of which he was as yet unaware.

Dani, you can say MU if you like. Only (like Jason with his favorite “Kath”), you’ll need to explain it every time you write it–or else if you don’t, someone is going to comment and say . . . “By the way, what is MU? That’s a new one for me.” Even with our fairly standard abbreviations, we have to do that once in a while.