As far as I am aware, many Christian Universalists believe that God will still have some work to do with many, if not all of us in the judgement process after death, purifying us with fire and making us to be like Jesus. In this view, we are not necessarily made perfect in an instant, but possibly through an extended process.

If this were the case, I was wondering what Paul may mean that we are changed “in the twinkling of an eye”.
I would appreciate any thoughts.

We are a world in perpetual motion. Our past, present and future take place with every single move that we make in any given second of time. It happens so quickly that we don’t even think about it. If one is sitting in a chair at present and then gets up to go into another room, for example, sitting became the past, the step that one just took is present, and the next step is future, which then happens to become present and past all in the twinkling of an eye. So from the moment one believes, the very next move should be a change in the right direction.

Sorry if my question was not clear. Just in case, I edited my OP to refer to the judgement process after death because I think Paul is referring to the change that takes place after death in this passage. Thanks.

Craig, this is one of the reasons that I am an ultra-universalist. That is, I do not believe that there are any post-mortem sufferings. No purgatory or anything like that.

As a member of the Eastern Orthodox Church, I believe that up until the death of Jesus Christ on the cross, people died and had no awareness after death. “Soul-sleep”, if you will. But upon Christ’s death, He descended into the grave and emptied it, leading all its captives up to Heaven. Ever since then, when a person’s body dies, his spirit goes immediately to Heaven.

Since it required no time at all for Christ to purify all the souls that died starting with Abel and ending with the thief on the cross, it has been a much simpler matter for Him to do the same over the last 1,985 years for each soul immediately after its body died. If the baby-killing Pharaoh and Herod, Jezebel, Ahab, Manasseh, and all the monsters who lived and died before A. D. 30 were changed together in the twinkling of an eye, how much more so Mrs. Peabody next door when her body died last year.

Thanks Geoffrey. I haven’t really looked much into the ultra-universalist view. Most of my thinking has been along the lines of purgatorial universalism - if this is what you call the Universalism of Robin Parry, Thomas Talbott, Jason Pratt and many others on the forum.
I can see how this passage in 1 Cor 15 would fit with your view. Do you know how the purgatorial universalists understand this passage?

Yes, “purgatorial universalism” is a fine term for the universalism that includes post-mortem sufferings.

I would guess that they understand “changed in the twinkling of an eye” to refer solely to the resurrection body we acquire at Christ’s Second Coming. Christ returns and poof! instantly everyone, whether he is a disembodied soul or whether he lives in a mortal body, has a transfigured, immortal body. I believe that, too. My problem would be with imagining sinners inhabiting perfect, transfigured, immortal bodies. “Purgatory” in this view must involve not only those who die before the Second Coming, but also those who have never experienced physical death at the Second Coming. (This, BTW, is also a problem for Roman Catholicism. Dante’s Comedy, for example, explicitly says that Purgatory will end at the Second Coming. But what about those still alive at the Second Coming? Won’t they have to endure a period of purgatorial suffering? If not, why not? Will they instead be instantly purified by God’s grace? If this is the case, why didn’t God do that for everyone?)

But that’s just it… He DID!! Religianity has followed the ways of Judaism in hankered after a works righteousness; it’s just called “confessing and believing”.

Humankind did not have to believe, acknowledge nor confess the first Adam to be assigned in him; likewise humankind did not have to believe, acknowledge nor confess the last Adam to be assigned in him. IF “good works” cannot open heaven to humanity logic likewise dictates “bad works” cannot shut heaven to humanity either.

IF Jesus… “appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself” (and I believe He DID!!) THEN God’s grace HAS affected forever the stance and status of humanity before Him, in a most positive way… THAT’S the gospel; letting folk know this is the privilege of those who grasp it.

Really nice DAVO

From what I understand, these verses are not talking about life after death, but rather the spirit within our physical bodies being raised to incorruption. Verse 53 says this: " For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." In other words we must change our mortal ways and start walking in the spirit of God so that we may live again.

I think the text is rather clear:

Everyone has borne the image of Adam. Everyone has a mortal body; everyone will die (except those children of God who are alive when Christ returns. At that time, when we are raised from death, we will bear the image of Christ (who was raised with an immortal body).

The final stage of the Kingdom of God seems to be referenced here. That stage will come about at the return of Christ. Those who inherit that Kingdom (rule and reign with Him) will not be those with mortal bodies (mere flesh and blood), but with the immortal bodies that they will immediately possess (in the twinkling of an eye) at His coming. Those who have died will be raised imperishable, and those who are alive at His coming will be changed, that is their mortal bodies will be instantly changed to the same kind of immortal bodies that those raised have. The next words describe this:

Paul is not saying that this will happen to everyone who has ever lived or all who are alive when Christ returns. He is speaking about God’s children only. In this passage, Paul does not say what happens to those who are not God’s children.

Paidion, some questions come to mind. I am interested when you would see the “fiery trial” mentioned in 1 Cor 3:12-15 taking place? Do God’s children experience this trial? Is it after the “twinkling of an eye” - do God’s children experience this fiery trial after receiving imperishable bodies? Would you say that “those who suffer loss” when the quality of their work is tested, includes God’s children? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks.

When we read Genesis 1:27, that man was created in the image of God, it means one of two things or both; that man was given a higher intelligence, reasoning, logic, knowledge, spirit of love, compassion etc. or that he was walking in the spirit of God. Likewise, when we say that we are made Christ-like, it means that we are living in the spirit of God, according to His word ( following Jesus). As far as terms such as living in the flesh, bearing the image of the man of dust, and as in Adam, these mean that we are not living in the Spirit but being sinners. To me, these terms don’t change. They still mean the same thing when I read 1 Corinthians 15:51-52.

From what I understand, the sound of a trumpet signifies a cataclysmic event that is about to take place or one that has already taken place. The blowing of a trumpet also serves as a memorial for such an event that has occurred. I would say that this trumpet being spoken of in Corinthians stands for Christ’s death and resurrection, the fall of Jerusalem, the death of the old ways, the heralding in of the new age/new testament, and the rebuilding of the church/ kingdom of God.

Read the passage, Craig.

It doesn’t indicate that people of any kind experience fire. Rather, it says each one’s works will be revealed by fire. Those works represented by gold, silver, and precious stones won’t be affected by the fire. But those works represented by wood, hay, and straw will be burned up (vs 15), and so the person whose works are of that kind will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved.

It doesn’t say that people

In my younger days as a Christian, before I came to understand and believe in UR, I was taught that upon Christ’s return Christians receive a new, spiritual and immortal body and become instantly perfect and sinless. Unbelievers go to hell forever.

Since accepting UR, I have seen some different views expressed about what happens to people at Christ’s return.

1 Everyone will be instantly made perfect.
2 Believers will be instantly made perfect, but unbelievers will have a period of experiencing God’s fire for purification/repentance before this can happen.
3 Everyone will be perfected through a loving, although perhaps at times uncomfortable process (Some may take a very long time).

When I read 1 Cor 15 recently, I thought to myself “what do those in group 3 think about this passage”? It seems to be a problem for that view.
But I thought passages like 1 Cor 3 and Mark 9:42-50 (“everyone will be salted with fire”) could point in the direction of view 3.
Paidion, I agree that 1 Cor 3 is talking about the judgement of people’s works, and that some people whose works were of the wood, hay and straw variety (of which I am sure I have plenty ) will suffer loss, but thankfully still be saved.

I may be wrong here, but as far as I can tell just from this thread, Geoffrey, davo, and maintenance man hold to view 1.
LLC has expressed some preterist views but I am not sure which view, if any, of the three above he holds.
I am also not sure about Paidion.
Geoffrey has kindly offerred a thought about how those in group three might think about 1 Cor 15.
Is there anybody around who actually holds to view 3?

Craig, I don’t really know what one would consider my view to be. When I read the bible, I don’t find much discussion about the afterlife. Maybe that’s just me. I believe the writers of the bible are telling us of the spiritual truths concerning this life on Earth. To me, they are voices of the past that speak to us of the future should we not change our ways. They also reveal to us what our lives will be like should we follow the ways of the Lord. A lot of what is said comes from hindsight ( 20/20 vision). This becomes our foreknowledge should we lay hold of it and learn. But as the saying goes, history repeats itself.
As for the afterlife, we can only speculate. Until we get there, no one can say one way or the other how it’s all going to be. Only God knows what truly lies in the heart and mind of each individual. But I have faith that whatever God does, it will be right and just. Maybe this is part of fearing the Lord.

Much wisdom there, LLC.
I agree that there is much more emphasis in the bible on life here on earth now than the details of our future after death.
The many differences of opinion on the afterlife would confirm what you say about us only speculating. I guess I still like to speculate as well as possible with the little we have. Thanks for your thoughts.

Craig, thanks for your comment. I think the preacher in Ecclesiastes sums it up pretty well, when he says in verses 12-14 “Of making many books there is no end, and much study is wearisome to the flesh. Let us hear of the whole conclusion to the matter: Fear God and keep His commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every work into judgment, including every secret thing, whether it is good or whether it is evil.”

Davo- what you cite shows the line of demarcation between you and Paidion. This is the single most puzzling issue for me, especially as I embrace UR. UR= universal, which i take to mean ALL!!! However, Paidion cites that the all is actually all who are God’s children, not ALL who have ever lived. Why does the NT say we need to confess faith and belief in Jesus, repenting, if ALl include every single person?? I want to align with you fully Davco, and i totally agree what Jesus DID is WHY we share with everyone who doesn’t get it, but why o why is there a separation between believers and unbelievers like Paidion says??? THis is not just for Davo but he made the most complete assessment for the 2 differing positions

Well in regards to the 1Cor 15 passage I think (for other reasons) Paidion is absolutely right. This is a major flaw (IMO) of the basic universalist’ hermeneutic where given contexts can explain certain “all” texts and yet are ignored for no other reason than positional sake; this as opposed to reasonable exegesis. Having said that… the opposing Calvinistic type mindsets do EXACTLY the same thing but in the other direction; IMO it comes down to trying to be consistent.

In the NT someone ‘confessing and believing’ was indicative of anyone having separated themselves unto service TO the Lord to live on behalf of others (and not everybody was called to this). And accordingly, IF one ‘believed’ Him one would in turn say (‘confess’) and consequently do (the fruit of repentance) those things of their Master. Modern dogmatism has reduced ‘confessing and believing’ to what is required to “get into heaven” i.e., get out of Hell, IOW “Jesus” becomes your ‘get out of jail card’ aka ‘fire insurance’ – totally WRONG!!

Actually my position is somewhat different… I understand this passage to be referring to the final change in the covenantal STANCE of man before God, and this on the corporate level in terms of Israel’s redemption; this as opposed to the standard evangelical notion of a change according to someone’s individual bodily subSTANCE. It was THIS change in a moment “in the twinkling of an eye” that came in Christ’s Parousia of CE. 70.

Having said that, I agree completely that there seems to be way more read into certain texts with regards to “the afterlife” than is actually present, IMO.

Certain Corinthian believers were in a quandary… “But someone will say, “How are the dead being raised up? And with what body are they coming?” (Gk. Text… dead is plural; body is singular; raised is **present tense ** passive––an action as occurring during that time; ‘come’ is **present tense ** middle––an action as occurring during that time in which the ‘raised’ are participating). So the question is NOT, “what kind if bodies (supposed afterlife) will we have in the resurrection” BUT, “what (which) BODY are the ‘dead being’ being raised in?”

“The dead” (vs. 12) = old covenant Israel. They were being raised up out of the body of Moses i.e., the OC mode of existence, into the NC “BODY” of Christ through the gospel… this was historic Israel’s promised covenant renewal, none other than her promised corporate resurrection (Ezek 37:1-14).

It wasn’t the resurrection of Jesus that was being denied (although as Paul notes, THIS IS the implication of their position), it was however the resurrection of a specific class of people called “the dead” that was being denied. Some overly zealous gentiles were assuming that God had finally abandoned and discarded Israel… Paul however was saying “Certainly not!” Rom 3:3-4; 11:1, 11. In fact he went onto say that IF “the dead” (being Israel, of whom was Jesus) were not raised, then surely He likewise was “not risen” and they (the gentiles) remained miserably lost… WHY? BECAUSE “the root” (Israel) supports the grafted in “branches” (gentiles), NOT the other way around… as per Rom 11:18.

Again, the denial of “the resurrection of the dead” by some at Corinth was related to the question of the relevancy of Paul’s gospel in fulfilling God’s promises to historic Israel. Some were being led to believe that Paul’s gospel represented a complete break with historical Israel, but the exact opposite was true… Jesus was “the firstfruits of “the dead” i.e., Israel. Israel was front and centre in YHWH’s redemptive plans.

In Jesus came “the resurrection and the life” ON BEHALF OF “all Israel”. Thus Jesus (and his disciples i.e., the firstfruit saints) made acceptable “the harvest” which led in divine consequence to the reconciliation of the broader world of humanity. I’ve posted this before but I’ll post it again to show this…

Israel being “cast away” by God was NOT a permanent thing (which some gentiles were getting wrong) but ONLY “in part” (Rom 11:25, 31) and a means to an end, i.e., the gentiles very inclusion into the family of God; aka “the mystery” of redemption Gal 3:3, 6.