I skimmed through the posts of this thread and if someone already brought this up, I’m so sorry. Mucho apologies. My speed reading is a bit rusty.

But we do have an account of someone coming to know Jesus without a bible in a sense,

That would be Saul, later Paul on the Road to Damascus.

I realize much of the conversation has been directed towards some body that has never heard of Jesus but Saul did not believe in Jesus and I took a pretty good wallop for him to come around. He obviously was knowledgeable about the OT scriptures and did not see Christ in them before that fateful day.

Direct revelation from the source. It is possible.

Something to chew on.

Fascinating stuff by the way!

How did we miss Saul - Paul - very good. It is Christ Himself that we come to…

Hey all- so truly enjoy and appreciate all the sharing on this thread MM your point about Saul/Paul is a very good tidbit to chew on. My main intent for starting this thread was to wrestle with the idea of could Jesus be limited to the Bible as far as knowing/experiencing Him. I like all the ruminations everyone has given, very good for thought. I know somewhere else on here it has been discussed that the canon is not closed because a council deemed it so. After all the council is made up of men. The mention made of the boy at the statue of the buddha illustrates also Gods Spirit at work with no Bible present. Of course, God has been active unendingly ever since the Bible was completed. I see so much fighting over different interpretations of the Bible across the centuries, even going back to the early days of the Church. I just wanted to hear from everyone about ways in which Jesus Himself frees us from this in ways that enhance our experience of Him and freedom to be ourselvesas we seek to follow Him and know Him best we can

To me, Jesus was God in the flesh. So all those who were truly following God in the Spirit should have known who He was when He appeared as a man. The question is, if God showed up today in the form of a man, would we recognize Him?

To me, Jesus was God in the flesh. So all those who were truly following God in the Spirit should have known who He was when He appeared as a man. The question is, if God showed up today in the form of a man, would we recognize Him?

But when Peter recognized who Jesus was, Jesus said that it was his Father in Heaven who revealed that to Peter even though Peter had seen many miracles, it took an intervention from God to open Peter’s eyes.

‘‘ways in which Jesus Himself frees us from this in ways that enhance our experience of Him and freedom to be ourselves as we seek to follow Him and know Him best we can’’ - we do become more ‘ourselves’ as we grow in him. Good statement and good thread - thanks for starting it.

Great point Steve!

Hi Robert,

I’ve been mulling this over… The very early church obviously did not have the NT like we do. But I would say they probably had a very rich oral knowledge / account of Jesus from people who either actually knew the Christ or knew someone who knew him etc etc.

And Paidion, I’m with you on folks idolizing the Bible.

But if we look at it from a timeline perspective, many of the proof texts we use (Romans, Ephesians etc) to witness about Christ and the church, were actually written to those who were already believers. So they believed even before they received what we now use to get our point across about these matters.

Seems to me that hearing the (about the)Word Is the important thing. Phillip heard the eunuch reading from Isaiah, was actually lead to him by the Spirit, and told him about Jesus without a NT.

Amazing how the eunuch was reading just the right passage at the right time.

Hi MM- very true about the rich oral tradition, especially considering that back then many people were alive who had known Jesus and saw Him alive. Very cool about that eunuch too, such incredible timing there I want to add a lil something here about God opening minds and hearts and no one coming to Jesus unless the Father draws him. These ideas smack of calvinism, limited atonement to an elect few. Paul says God wants all men to be saved and of course, as UR proponents we would all agree he has saved all. How do you interpret those passages??? It always struck me strange that, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, then why would God pick a certain few to be elect over all the other sinners simply because He can do what He wants since He is God.

Hi MM,

This is a point I’ve often considered. It’s one of the reasons the letter written to Diognetus by an anonymous Christian around 130 A.D. is so precious.
Diognetus as appears to have been a non-Christian Roman leader at the time the letter was written to him.

CHAPTER 6
6:1 In a word, what the soul is in a body, this the
Christians are in the world.
6:2 The soul is spread through all the members of
the body, and Christians through the divers cities of
the world.
6:3 The soul hath its abode in the body, and yet it
is not of the body. So Christians have their abode in
the world, and yet they are not of the world.
6:4 The soul which is invisible is guarded in the
body which is visible: so Christians are recognised as
being in the world, and yet their religion remaineth
invisible.
6:5 The flesh hateth the soul and wageth war with
it, though it receiveth no wrong, because it is
forbidden to indulge in pleasures; so the world hateth
Christians, though it receiveth no wrong from them,
because they set themselves against its pleasures.
6:6 The soul loveth the flesh which hateth it, and
the members: so Christians love those that hate them.
6:7 The soul is enclosed in the body, and yet itself
holdeth the body together; so Christians are kept in
the world as in a prison-house, and yet they
themselves hold the world together.
6:8 The soul though itself immortal dwelleth in a
mortal tabernacle; so Christians sojourn amidst
perishable things, while they look for the
imperishability which is in the heavens.
6:9 The soul when hardly treated in the matter of
meats and drinks is improved; and so Christians when
punished increase more and more daily.
6:10 So great is the office for which God hath
appointed them, and which it is not lawful for them to
decline.

Lightfoot translation

Thanks Paidion!

John 4:24 " God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 10:25 “The works I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me.”
John 10 :27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.”
John 8:47 “He who is of God hears God’s words.”
John 8:19 “If you had known me , you would have known My Father also.”
John 5:38 'But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe."

Again, I believe that those who knew God’s Spirit and had His love and His word abiding in their hearts and minds would have known Jesus.

Took me a while to address these points.

It is obvious in scripture there is an idea of elect… and also an idea of choice, so we as Christians: and as functional citizens, we need to deal with both of these thoughts.

The elect… (the first fruit) may very well be the calling of the church. And so it is. If we know we have all fallen short we alert others to the understanding that Christ came to alleviate the deformities of all. What a Glorious message!

And to those who the elect is ministering to, thank God to those who come to know Christ.

I haven’t actually followed the thread lately. On the elect… I recon the elect are those who are saved before the first death. Or in others words saved during this life on earth. This would fit well with the first fruits concept.
The non-elect will stumble, but won’t fall - “So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means!” (Romans 11:11)

Hi LLC, MM & Daniel- So cool to read all your last posts. LLC- I think there those who did not recognize Jesus though, like the ones on the road to Emmaus. I need to think more on the verses you mentioned though, and their full context. Is the knowing mental,emotional or both?? Have you thought about posting the thread on a moral dilemma you mentioned before??

MM- I think the elect are those in Christ You are right election is mentioned in a few places in scripture. I think it does not jibe with calvinist interpretation though.

Daniel- glad you came back to the thread and appreciate your thoughts. Hope to hear more

Robert, I would say that it may take some time before one fully comes to recognize God, depending on how long and how well we know Him, and what we have been taught. But say for example, you have been talking to someone on the phone (or computer) for many years. You have never met this person face to face. But should this person come to visit you, would you not eventually come to recognize him?

PS Still thinking about the post on moral dilemmas, but got a little sidetracked.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and** seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus**. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10** For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.**(Eph 2)

In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth,** so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures**.(James 1:18)

For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.(Heb 2:10)

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that** the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of Go**d. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body…

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29** For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren**; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.(Rom 8)

Therefore** if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have com**e. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation(2 Cor 5)

Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called the sons of God.

Then the remnant of Jacob Will be among many peoples Like dew from the Lord, Like showers on vegetation Which do not wait for man Or delay for the sons of men(Micah 5:7).

I see election within the concept of the first fruits. I think it so beautiful- the whole thing. All those who are in Christ and remain fatihful are being brought into glory, in the same way he was- through sufferings(trials, tribs, persecutions), joining in the ministry of reconciliation now and in ages to come the restoration of all things, setting the creation free from futility. A priesthood(every high priest is taken from among men to serve them in things pertaining to God) and a brotherhood.

“He who overcomes will inherit all things and sit with me on my Father’s throne.”

He who sits on the throne says, “Behold I am making all things new”

Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, all things become new.

The first to be subjected become the servants of creation leading to further subjection- the gathering together of all things into one in Christ(anakephalaomai)… The inheritance of the children of God.

In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things [m]in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.(Eph 1:9-11)

These things are all clearly connected together once we see them, suffering, transformation, election, glory, service. Jesus did not come to judge the world but to save it. Would that Christians felt the same way LOL

I think Romans 8 is about this, the first fruits of newness(in the glorious liberty of the children of God) setting the whole creation free from its subjection to futility and into subjection to Christ in freedom and love.

It also connects up well with Romans 1… Since the beginning God has made His eternal power and divine nature clearly evident through the things He has made… and Romas 2…Those who did not have the law will be judged without law and those who had the law will be judged under the law… the law of God being a guide and a tool for those who serve, not an axe for beheading the ignorant. Clearly those who did not have the law but kept it by nature show the law written on their hearts and their conscience will excuse them in the Day as God judges mens secrets by Jesus Christ.

I think that those who by nature kept the law even tho they did not have it in hand, testified that they knew Him, tho perhaps not mentally- but in the secret place of the heart.

I wonder if they will be more elect than the elect

Psalm 24

1The earth is the LORD’S, and all it contains,
The world, and those who dwell in it.
2For He has founded it upon the seas
And established it upon the rivers.

  3Who may ascend into the hill of the LORD?
        And who may stand in His holy place?

  4He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
        Who has not lifted up his soul to falsehood
        And has not sworn deceitfully.

  5He shall receive a blessing from the LORD
        And righteousness from the God of his salvation.

  6This is the generation of those who seek Him,
        Who seek Your face—even Jacob. 

Selah.
7Lift up your heads, O gates,
And be lifted up, O ancient doors,
That the King of glory may come in!

  8Who is the King of glory?
        The LORD strong and mighty,
        The LORD mighty in battle.

  9Lift up your heads, O gates,
        And lift them up, O ancient doors,
        That the King of glory may come in!

  10Who is this King of glory?
        The LORD of hosts,
        He is the King of glory.

Eaglesway- thank you for all that exposition!!! Love your points you make and your humor One question, since it is by Gods grace in Jesus anything is accomplished for us or by us, what is the meaning behind sayong to all who persevere or all who obey or any of those verses where our actions and efforts are referred to??/ Those who kept the Law still failed in some respects. I agree completely with your signature hell is a myth. Within a UR perspective how do we understand these calls for our actions?? Are these to be expressions of the faith we have only??

I believe we operate on a need to know basis and are not given the over-all view of God’s perspective in our own lives. Whatever we are called to we must strive for and work towards, learning to be good stewards of the grace of God, and trusting the grace of God to enable us and for forgiveness where we fail. I believe all the exhortations of scripture ought to be heeded and I do believe we have the power to choose- I just don’t claim to know where the line is between our will and His sovereign choice. To me that is what faith is for- it is a mystery and meant to remain one. But God is no taskmaster and freedom includes the freedom to be oneself and choose ones own joys and dreams- but to serve Him in it as we are learning to choose His ways in our doings, and when the occasion arises, to be interupted by His will should He speak from on high.

I do think it is a error to relieve myself of responsiblility by laying it all on His sovereign control, and yet it is also an error to take credit for anything His grace has wrought in me, so in my view it comes down to trust.

I like it!