I don’t understand the statements, " It’s all about faith." and " Works aren’t as important because they’re not what saves us."
James says “faith without works is dead.” I’m thinking that the works may even be more important than faith. For if we have no faith, and therefore do not act, then nothing gets done. On the other hand, if we have faith and do not act, still nothing gets done. I would say that the best thing would be to have faith because this is what drives us to act. But, if we act even though we don’t have faith at least something gets done. Better yet, if the results of our actions produce something good then we’d believe and tell others. Also, the evidence would be there for people to see, and this might lead them to believe and act as well. It is said that an act of kindness covers a multitude of sins. To me, the works are of utmost importance.

I once heard a preacher say “we are not saved by works, but for works”. I think there is some truth in that.

One of the Bible verses I try to live by is Micah 6: 8

“He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but
to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” (ESV)

I like the active “do justice” that the ESV has.

Regards,

Mike

LLC

I think the ideal of what God desires is works of love and kindness that spring from faith.
Paul describes this in Gal 5:6 saying “the only thing that counts is faith working through love”.
He also describes it in Rom 1:5 and Rom 16:26 as the "obedience of faith”.
James describes it in James 2:22 as "faith and actions working together”.
The old hymn expresses it well,
“Trust and obey
For there’s no other way
To be happy in Jesus
But to trust and obey”.

Blessings
Craig

Actually, it was James who said that in James 2:26.

But what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10 was “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

Without Him we can do nothing (John 15:5). It is only when we are saved that we can be fit to do good works, as we are created in Christ Jesus upon salvation (2 Cor. 5:17) . Of course, we need to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and He leads us or else we will produce dead works, as James says, which things will burn up at that day (judgment) (I Cor 3:11-15) .

I can see the difficulty here. The Bible sometimes does seem to suggest the importance of works only.

Consider the parable of the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46), in which all nations of the world are gathered. The people of these nations are then placed into only two categories: sheep, which are termed righteous, and goats, which are not. Sheep and goats are described in the parable to differ in only one important way. Sheep did good works, depicted in the parable as various ways of helping others. Goats did not. Nothing is said about sheep and goats differing in faith, which is usually thought by Christians to be the factor that engenders righteousness.

Some who feel that faith is of overriding importance to righteousness see a way around this possible dilemma. They assume that works are tied directly to faith in important ways. They feel faith is a sufficient and necessary condition of works. That is, faith would imply works and works would imply faith.

Can faith be shown to be a sufficient and necessary condition of works? Straightforward observations seem to indicate it cannot. For example, the setting of the sheep and goats parable suggests that Jesus was chastising the Jewish leaders of that time who had faith but not the works emphasized by Jesus. So having faith does not necessarily imply having works. Further, moral people of no faith exist, so works do not necessarily imply faith.

Dondi, Thanks for the correction. You’re right, it was James who said that. I knew that it was written somewhere, but I was just too lazy to look it up. I see your point. As Iancia mentions, there are good, moral people who don’t believe in God, yet still do the works. Who do they give credit to? They may just boast of themselves. However, faith alone doesn’t get the job done. We must perform the works in order to be saved. Take the story of Noah for example. God warned him that the flood was coming and gave him instructions on how to build the ark. Now, Noah had faith that what God said was true, but he also had to get to work and build it. Otherwise,he would have drowned along with the rest of the people.

The question, as I see it,is not whether or not we should or will do good works, but rather, where is our source of “light” if you will, to do them.

Is it ourselves, or is it God?

Dondi answered that, I believe, with the quote he used:

But what Paul said in Ephesians 2:8-10 was “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”

God is our source. He is the one and only true light.

Works, I believe, should be viewed as the fruit of our faith, which Jesus spoke of. We can do these, because of the grace of God. We believe, listen, and obey.

I don’t know about being saved because we do the works, but that being open to God’s plan, is a part of faith. Trust, to me, is a natural outcome of faith, in that, with trust, we are willing to hand our life over to God, to die to self, and then be used for whatever purpose we were created. But, we will not always hear correctly, nor will we always obey. Just look at the Old Testament stories, if you don’t believe me.

And, we should remember, that Satan believes that God is who He is,too,so,in a sense, he has ‘faith’ that God is God. But, he does not hand his life over to Him. Rather, he tries to tempt us to not give our hearts and lives to God.

Here is what Paul wrote in Romans 2:6-10

[size=120]**For He will render to everyone according to his works.

To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek [from God] for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life, but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek, for God shows no partiality.**[/size]

Their are dead works and works that spring from faith working through love. “if I give all that I have to the poor and have not love…”

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. Gal 5:6

It is concisely explained in Ehp 2:8-10

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9** not as a result of works,** so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Not saved by works, but saved by being a new creation -created in Christ Jesus for good works, “I live yet not I but Christ lives through me”.

“Neither circumscision or uncircumscision is anything, but a new creation.” Gal 6:15

We walk by grace through faith even as we were saved by grace through faith.

“Having our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand”.

What James is saying that if no good works spring forth from our faith then our faith is “in vain”, and that true faith is evidenced by good works, which are, in short- faith working through love.

Paul said the Jews fell short of the law in that they “pursued it to establish their own righteousness”.(Rom 9:30-33)

For many this seems to be too fine a line to discern- but it is THE CRITICAL UNDERSTANDING concerning the relationship between faith and works, and it is a matter of the spiritual source- the well spring of love that opens for those who believe and “abide in the vine”.

“If you continue in my word you be my disciples indeed and you will know the truth and the truth will set you free”

“I am the Vine and you are the branches, unless you abide in me(continue, dwell) you will not bear much fruit. If you abide in me you will bear fruit and your fruit will remain”.

There are wood, hay and stubble works and gold, silver and precious stone works(1 Cor 3), they will be tested/discerned/revealed by fire in the Day by the one “who tries the reins and the hearts” and as it is written in Romans 2 “their consciences either excusing or accusing them in the Day where God judges the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ”- whose eyes are as a flame of fire and who sends a two edged sword from His mouth.

So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. 10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His. 11 Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

This, I think, is the seam where the two seemingly opposed views integrate as one.

We cease from our own works, which are dead. Enter the new creation in Christ, which is the Sabbath rest of God- from within which we work because,

“It is God who is in you to will and to work of His good pleasure”, which manifests as “faith which worketh by love”(KJV)

This is not always easy to discern in ourselves, so we trust God as we walk in the Day and abide in the Vine to refine our motives and empower us with love, by the Holy Spirit who has shed abroad the love of God in our hearts(Ro. 5:5)- and we rest in the assurance that we are “in Christ” and He is “in us” and that we are children of God, “Abba Father(daddy father)” connected to the Vine and growing in grace.

Justin Martyr in “Dialogue With Trypho” interpreted this Sabbath rest to be cessation from sin. Other early Christian writers also so interpreted it.

This sentence is followed by verse 10, or rather it is the ending of the same sentence:

Justin Martyr understood that the works from which the person “rests” are the works of sin.

Their are dead works and works that spring from faith working through love.

I think the sentence above, from Eaglesway, sums up what I have learned, though this thread, about works.

Perhaps, if I had unraveled all my thoughts, I could have come to this conclusion, myself, but to hear it spoken about, was a great help.

Lutherans are very ‘opposed’, shall we say, to the concept of works, being the indicator of anything, rather than faith and grace, due to the history of Luther and the RC Church, and his ‘discovery’, of us being saved by grace, through faith, and not of our own works.

My Catholic heritage, on the other hand, put too much emphasis on people’s own efforts of work, to ‘offer’ to God, as opposed to grace through faith.

In a nutshell, I was in need of some serious unraveling, in this department. And, I got it. Praise God.

Thank you, everyone, for helping me unravel…in a very good way!

Sin is missing the mark, which is what the dead man does in Adam, so to that extent I agree that the Sabbath rest is ceasing from sin. That which is not of faith is sin, because it misses the mark- whether it is religious dead works or the more obvious sins of the flesh. Adultery is a sin. Selfish ambition is a sin. Judgmentalism is a sin. Legalism is a sin.

However the Sabbath rest is much more than just ceasing from sin, imo. It is something we live in, and that life is what allows us to cease from sin- no longer living in the flesh, but living in the new creation in Christ Jesus, “I live, yet not I”. In order to cease from sin believers nust be strengthened in that life which comes upon us by grace through faith- which is rest. If we labor diligently to enter His rest, “today if you hear His voice”…hearing with faith is the seed of righteousnss.

“Walk in the Spirit(rest) and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh(sin)”

“Cease striving and know that I am God.” “Be still and know that I am God” “In repentance and rest is your deliverance, in quietness and trust is your strength.”

I do note that the verse does not say “ceased from sin” but “ceased from his own works, as God did from His”. Interpretations can be found for any
view, and altho I agree with the interpretation of Justin Martyr as one limited facet of the overall scope of the Sabbath rest of the believer- there is much more to it.

I agree with these verses entirely, as long as they are set within the entire context of scripture, wherein being a new creation in Christ Jesus, and teaching the forgiveness of sins and the grace of God empowering righteousness through faith, is the core of the gospel.

Legalism is unrighteousness and Paul introduced those verses in Romans 2 with these…

Therefore you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 And we know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who practice such things. 3 But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation…

IMO he was taking aim at the legalists who placed works before grace and thus missed the mark, judging others as lawbreakers when they themselves were lawbreakers who would not obey Messiah because of selfish ambiton, which is as sinful as any other sin.

The comparison is “kindness, tolerance and patience” versus “selfish ambition and disobedience to the truth”. In these verses “it is the kindness of God that leads to repentance”- and that is the plumbline he is hanging.

To me, the works do save. Look at all the charitable organizations out there saving people from poverty, starvation, death, destruction of families, etc. They save us spiritually. When we give to others our souls are lifted up. The receivers also gain something spiritually-hope,faith. Works also save/keep us from sin. For if we spend our time doing the things that God has instructed us to do, we would have no time to sin. The apostles were given the task of rebuilding the kingdom of God/ church because it had fallen into ruins. Jesus laid the foundation of it, but they were to continue the building. This involved a lot of work. We are to be doing the same.

Works are important, as the fruit of salvation, testifying to its validity- but not as the means to it.

Works that proceed from love do save, in the sense of continuing salvation, sanctification, obedience to the love of God within(to will and to work of His good pleasure) and abiding in Christ, and I agree, of course, that they “save” others in the sense of whatever relief they provide from whatever needs they address. IMO they do not save in the sense that they can provide reconciliation with God, which is by grace through faith, and that being the gift of God lest any man should boast. Pauls statement in Eph 2:

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the [e]mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

… is emphatic and detailed as to where we were and who we were and how we got to where we are and who we are in Christ. Repentance and faith towards God are the foundations of salvation, repentance being a change of attitude, which naturally effects works in a positive manner, and faith towards God empowering “good works” that arise out of His life within. Part of those “good works” is proclaiming the grace of God, so we stand in grace, “having our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand”, and works are the fruit that grow out of that source.

As soon as we “stand in works” we have entered the original error of spirit that becomes that same failure Paul spoke of…

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32** Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works**. They stumbled over the stumbling stone…(Rom 9)

For a lot of people, a change of heart doesn’t occur until they go out in the field and do the works. We actually see with our own eyes when we come face to face with things such as poverty, starvation etc. Our hearts grow cold sometimes when we get into our daily ruts. We need to get out and do because it opens our eyes. It’s not just about having faith in God. It’s about having faith in His Word or words. That if we believe and do all the things He has instructed us to do, which include the works, we will be saved.

Boy, that is a strong verse and I want to take this on a bit of tangent here… That section of scripture sure seems to strongly suggest conditional immortality…

How?

I firmly believe that faith only is a misrepresentation of Paul. It was said that Paul was ‘hard to understand’ and this is probably one area. The problem is that true faith will always accompany works, therefore, the works do in fact save, because they demonstrate that the faith is real. But I suppose a better way to look at it (from my perspective) is that salvation itself is already assured, but we must now labor for it. God’s provision is always there when we decide to carry our cross and follow Jesus. I don’t believe that is limited to this life. Therefore, all are saved, or rather, all salvation is procured, but the individual must start working towards that end. Eventually, everyone will.

There is also an alternate viewpoint I have been pondering lately that lines up with scripture and that is: Christian’s receive something special that can never be obtained after the grave. While all are saved, the special reserved elect will get something more and that will not end, ever. Meaning, I doubt when Christ subjects himself to the father and we become all in all, I still think that Christians who ‘endure till the end’ will have something special granted to them all eternity. Will others be jealous? No, I don’t think in the negative sense of the word. But I think they will, for a time, be upset that they missed out on opportunities. That said, I am not sure distinction will matter much in the end, except to the person themselves. For example, today on Earth, people like the titles because they know others want that title. Therefore, they feel pride and this pride is striving against fellow man. But in heaven, I don’t think titles will be used in that way. We won’t have jealously in the form it is now (for self seeking glory). We will have just one person to impress - The Lord Jesus Christ. That is all the matters anyway.

Option A) To those who by perseverance in well-doing seek [from God] for glory and honour and immortality,
He will give eternal life,

Option B) but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth,
but are persuaded by unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

The fact that Option A mentions Glory, Honour and most importantly Immortality, seems to imply that option B doesn’t get any of that. If option A didn’t mention that last word, immortality, then I would say ‘duh’ of course is true… But the fact it mentions immortality would elude that option B doesn’t get it. I believe that would be a very reasonable objection to Universalism.

MacDonald himself said God would do no wrong to annihilate the sinners. He would still be blameless for it. It was just his opinion that God would have been defeated. I believe MacDonald believed that conditional immortality was a very real possibility, but knowing God, believed in the better part, the more victorious part. I agree with MacDonald. Universalism is a very beautiful thing and seems so very clear, but it cannot be dogmatically defended with the scriptures. Neither side really can… The only side that doesn’t really have an argument is the ECTers…