Dude!! Most excellent post!!

Actually, Paidion is correct. There is an article entitled Closing the Door on Open Theism. Especially look at the section Open Theism’s Assault on God’s Attributes.

Please read the rest of that section. In the context of this article, I also embrace open theism. And I extend it to universalism, which is why I am a hopeful universalist.

Now let me fix a soup of my solutions to the problem of evil, starting with the open theism ingredient:

I also buy into these ideas:

Here’s another idea. Let’s take a Christian response to it, that came from the Journal of Christian Theology and Philosophy. It’s called Eternal Selves and The Problem of Evil. It explains philosophically and theologically why - as Steve puts it in Biblical terms - we see through a glass darkly.

If I were to expand on the author’s thesis, it would be along the lines of Platonic philosophy, with the Critic of Pure Reason by Immanuel Kant thrown in, for how we know things in this present reality.

Let’s look at an article from the evangelical site Patheos: Suffering and the Problem of Evil.

And on another thread, it was asked if I embraced the health and prosperity gospel. Yes, but not for the reasons given by traditional health and prosperity gospel ministers and theologians. Nor for the reason New Thought Christianity and Christian Science state. It’s because of a reason given earlier, which TV evangelist Joe Osteen seems to pick up on:

This idea came to me from my study of the Health and Prosperity gospel movement, new thought Christian movement and Christian Science. All three can claim many health, prosperity and healing miracles from contemplating Good as “all-in-all”, absolute all pervading goodness, declaring God’s victory over all calamities repeatedly, etc. Perhaps this does work as a contemplation and thoughts and feelings do shape out reality. Or the holy angels help when we do these things, as contemporary Catholic mystic, stigmata bearer and healer Tiffany Snow alluded to - from her visions . While evil is “apparently” present (definitely unholy angels influence things), God is waiting for us to do out part - to banish it.
Why not change it from a theology to a contemplation or reflection of God’s omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence? Perhaps we can combine the contemplation of new thought Christianity’s Emmet Fox Golden Key with Brother Lawrence Practicing the Presence of God. It depends on when we consider God becomes “all in all”. Now or sometime in the future. If we take this approach, is it possible to have spiritual healing results similar to authors Mary Baker Eddy, Emma Curtis Hopkins, Agnes Sanford, Joel Goldsmith and Emmet Fox?

Let’s take the Golden Key of Emmet Fox at The Golden Key To Prayer by Emmet Fox:

There’s an interesting book I enjoy called Psychic Gifts in the Christian Life: Tools to Connect by Tiffany Snow.

Now let me add 2 things. The bible says we are created in the image and likeness of God. So it brings up 2 points:

The contemplation is only as good as our faith and our growth in Christ (i.e. whether we know it or not). This growth is deemed sanctification in Anglican thought and theosis in Eastern Orthodox thought.
I believe that God’s knowledge of possibilities in open theism only applies to human, angelic and demonic . Not to nature, animals or the universe in general - except where demons and humans might effect it (since holy angels obey God’s commands).

While evil is “apparently” present (definitely unholy angels influence things), God is waiting for us to do out part - to banish it.

Re this element of God waiting for us to do our part, the question is when we see in the gospels instances of folks being healed or miracles happening Jesus connects these things to their faith, “daughter your faith has healed you” or “be it done to you according to your faith.” The same with authority over Satan “you resist the devil and he will FLEE from you”, so the issue is whether this applies to us or whether this only was applicable during Jesus ministry.

Re “apparent” evil, Paul called this age, “this present evil age”. that sounds pretty real to me.

Re “Open Theism” it’s possible but I don’t see what difference it makes in that God being omniscient can predict what will happen or intervene and make things happen.

Re: God ordaining evil or just allowing it, I still see no difference because if evil is something God doesn’t want it seems to me based on what James said, then God is obligated to stop it if stopping it is “doing good.” James said if you know to do good and don’t it is sin, a Sin of omission.

Let me briefly respond to these points:

Based upon the workings of saints in the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Churches… the healing and miracles in Pentecostal churches… even what TV ministers like Joel Osteen mention - miracles are part of this present reality also. One Protestant evangelist said the reason he witnessed so many miracles in third world countries, is that people still believe they are possible.

.

When I use the word apparent, it doesn’t mean it’s NOT real. It just dissolves by a higher reality. It’s like having a disease. It’s real. The doctors say so. The medical tests say so. But it disappears - perhaps because many people pray for you… or you go to a Pentecostal healing service … or ask an Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic saint to interview, by also praying…Or you or someone else, follows the contemplation I’ve mentioned previously. Then it’s no longer a disease. Now I’m not saying one should NOT use science and medicine. Do it. But use prayer and spiritual healing also.

I would say that since God depends on free choices of man - and miracles still happen, depending on how mankind believes and responds - part of God’s response depends on us. Perhaps you can benefit by reading the articles on open theism:

Open theism
Closing the Door on Open Theism
Why open theism doesn’t even matter (very much)

And the last link says this (which relates to my answer):

I agree, Paidon.

My view is that God commits no evil and tempts no man with evil, and does not bind our wills to sin.

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust and enticed.(James 1)

This issue is a mystery, and hard to understand- at least I think so, because I dont fully understand it, but I have a few thoughts…

And now you know what controls, that he may be revealed in his time. 7The mystery of evil has even now begun to work within, only if that which now controls will be taken from the midst; 8And then that Evil One will be revealed, whom Our Lord Yeshua will consume with a breath of his mouth, and will destroy him by the revelation of his coming. 9For the coming of that one is in the activity of Satan in all power, signs and false wonders, 10And in all the error of evil which is in the perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth in which they would have Life. 11Because of this, God sent them the activity of delusion that they would believe lies. 12And all those who believed not the truth, but chose evil, will be judged.(2 Thess 2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English))

My take on the mystery of evil is a little fuzzy round the edges but…

God created chaos and set us within in it. Gave us the keys to unleash it upon ourselves, and gave us the keys to be released from it.

But if we dont turn those keys, we are futile, slaves of corruption, and out of that corruption comes evil, and wickedness, and altho God has forgiven us, we cannot be released until we forgive, and we cannot understand forgiveness until we see wickedness as our own choice- because who needs to be forgiven for that which they did not conceive?

Every man sins when he is drawn away by the lust of his own heart and lust conceives sin and sin conceives death. And death is its own reward.

In Isaiah 45 and a few other scriptures where God says, “I create evil” or “I will bring evil”, he is not speaking of evil as wickedness, He is speaking of evil event, negative events, judgments.

The evil He brought upon them was the fruit of their own thoughts and deeds(Jer 6:19). In this context “evil” is judgment - not wickedness, or anything to do with temptation. He is contrasting evil with peace- saying, “I can create peace for you if you yield to me, or I can bring chaos and destruction upon you- as the fruit of your own deeds and thoughts”. But there is no place in the scriptures that even hints that God does, or tempts anyone with, wickedness- neither is He saying that he creates wickedness, or tempts anyone with it…

The prophets are all speaking about God bringing judgment on Israel for their wickedness, not God Himself doing evil in any sense of wickedness.

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

This topic was active recently on tentmaker and a member posted this, about the difference between evil and wickedness, in Hebrew

Thanks Eaglesway.

Your distinction between evil רע and wicked רשע is good טוב!

Quite a different take on it from a Hebraic perspective taken by Jeff A. Benner:

Very few sermons in our Western synagogues and churches would include the passage " I [God] form the light and create darkness, I make peace and I create evil, I am the LORD who does all of these " (Isaiah 45:7) as our Western mind sees these two forces as opposing opposites. However, the Eastern mind sees them both as equals and necessary for perfect balance. In the Western mind, God is only good and therefore unable to create evil. The Eastern mind sees God as a perfect balance of all things including good ( tov in Hebrew, Strong’s #2896 ) and evil ( ra in Hebrew, Strong’s #7451 ).

It should be noted that the English word “evil” has no Ancient Hebrew equivelant, while most English translations will use the word “evil,” it is usually the Hebrew word ra , which is also often translated as “bad.” In the Ancient Hebrew mind there is no such thing as an “evil” person or thing. To understand the words “good” and “bad” from a more Hebraic understanding, these words should be understood as “functional” and “dysfunctional”. God is both functional (such as seen in the Creation story of Genesis one) as well as dysfunctional (such as seen with the destruction of the flood).

Our western mind classifies all things in two categories, either it is “good” or it is “bad”. One is to be sought, cherished and protected, the other is to be rejected, spurned and discarded. Let us take light and darkness as an example. We see light as good and darkness as bad. The idea of light brings to mind such things as God, truth and love. Darkness on the other hand invokes Satan, lies and hate. To the Orientals, including the Hebrews, both are equally necessary as one cannot exist without the other. In the Bible God is seen as a God of light as well as darkness " And the people stood at a distance and Moses approached the heavy darkness where God was. " (Exodus 20:21). If you stare at the sun, which is pure light, what happens? You become blind. If you are standing in a sealed room with no light, what happens? You are again blind. Therefore, both light and darkness are bad and yet, both are good. In order to see we must block out some of the light as well as some of the darkness.

The two poles of a magnet are north and south. These two poles create balance, they are not morally good or bad, but necessary ingredients of physics that compliment each other. Good and bad are more like the north and south poles of a magnet than our Western conception of good and bad.

Can good exist without the bad? Absolutely not, how could you judge something to be good if you cannot compare it to something bad? The same is true for all other concepts. Cold cannot exist without heat, or short without tall, far without near, or large without small. Our western mind usually ignores these extremes and seeks to always find the “good” or the “bad”. The Eastern mind is continually seeking both the “good” and the “bad” in order to find the balance between the two. Even Solomon recognized this when he said " Do not be overly righteous " (Ecclesiastes 7:16).

Throughout the scriptures this search for balance is found, yet ignored by Westerners who do not understand the significance of balance.

Do you guys think that there could be an interplay of good and evil as a necessity in life?

Hi mik… on what basis is this above constituted as “a Hebraic perspective” or mindset, as in, how do you know this qualifies as such. Certainly it reads to me to be little more than baptised and religionised yin yang — just asking.

Hey there davo,

I would say it’s a hebraic perspective based on the inclusion of using scripture (OT) to form the viewpoint. Was also looking online about it, and it seems that the more common view from Jews is that God does create light and dark (Isaiah 45:7), yet is also inherently made of Love.

We do definitely see it in other cultures, which I would say take a more naturalistic view of looking at it. Which is totally ok.

Personally just trying to see if all this coincides with the rest of scripture.
Does that answer your question?

That’s the impression I was wondering about… just my opinion, but that doesn’t make it “a Hebraic perspective” per sé — again just sayin’, thanks though for clarifying.

@davo yea I do see your point. I guess it just relates to the religion that most subscribes with whats being said. Ie. Jews vastly use the OT as scripture, therefore it is a Jewish belief.

Technically it doesn’t need to be classified as a Jewish belief though. I would agree.

It is often said that original sin is “down to free will.” To me this dose not explain the root of how the thought of sin was conceived in the first place. It is believed that God being perfect created a perfect angelic host. How did the concept of rebellion come to be with in a perfect environment/creation and within a perfect mind. It’s also often said by many ahhhh !!!Free will !!!. But one still needs to give birth to wrongful thoughts to apply that free will wrongly. Surely free will can only act on what it knows/ understands,so we’re did the birth of that evil concept come from with in a perfectly created
mind /environment.It seems like one big mystery, and I don’t think I could argue other wise. But the biggest question for me is, If Satan was able to developed sin within himself without being tempted, because he had free will, then surely this means Adam and Eve could have develop sin with in the confines of free will, without the added burden of Satan tempting them. Even if we were to all agree, that God is not the author of sin, this doesn’t explain why he allowed Satan to make the possibility of sinning a more attractive proposal to Adam and Eve.

I have had two stumbling blocks in my faith. One was when the veil was taken away from me concerning Matthew 24:34 and “this generation”. So after some mental suffering, I became Preterist. The other stumbling block was the problem of evil. Things that disturbed me greatly a creator had designed such as the ways of the tarantula hawk or the incredible painful birth process of the hyena . Great atrocities in history such as the incredibly sadistic execution of Francois Damiens. Accepting evolution as a means, a process God had kicked off helped me some explaining shortcomings in the designed. Angelic agency helped me with old testament atrocities. Universal salvation helped me some but above all it was trusting God. God must know better. Logically there are many things we dont understand but we can trust God knows better. He must have a reason for not saving that drowning baby. There is certainly an “Islam” (submission) element in Christianity, though it is not works based, it is submitting to the sovereignity of God.

The only answer that makes sense to me much as it may offend folks is that God knew Adam would sin and allow mortality to come to every man, but also allow sin and evil into the world, that there must be lessons to be learned from experiencing evil that are necessary for mankind to grow up into maturity.

“God allowed Satan to make sinning attractive”… (because) “lessons learned from experiencing evil are necessary for mankind to grow.”

I agree, if God had power to make us without sin, but chose not to do that, it seems it must be because God saw sin and evil as essential to developing the character God values.

The only logical explanation I can run with
A t m [not that any explanation will truly suffice] Is found by looking at the mess mankind has made in trying to run/Govern this earth without Gods rulership.When Christ has put all power/rule and authority Under his feet to the point he hands back the kingdom to God, so that God may be all in all, perhaps it is then that the mess we [ALL] contributed to will always serve as a reminder to us [ALL] what messy affairs and effects rebellion against Gods rulership causes. Although all former things will have passed away, and there will be a new heaven and earth with no more tears/death/pain/ etc…looking back on all the terrible suffering that had been will no longer cause anguish,because [All] has been rectified through Christ back to God. It could be said that looking back at a past life without Gods rulership will serve a good purpose when [ALL] has been made right.

I suppose at the end of the day, trusting God knows better in [ALL] things is probably the best we can do.

@steve7150

Does Jeremiah 20:7 maybe come into view❔

I wonder if the opening question could be parsed a bit. Are we asking:

1. Does God commit evil?
2. Does God directly cause people to commit evil?
3. Does God allow evil, and if he does, how is he NOT culpable?

I think there are answers to 3. I can’t go as far as 1,2 personally.

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5 ESV)

No one is claiming God is evil but rather is evil caused only because of mans sin or is it connected to God’s purposes. I know you reject that but that is the issue.