The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Righteoussness as Filthy Rags

Taken from the philisophical forum where Fire & Brimestone used this quote from scripture…

I am one who does not subscribe to the dominant view that the verse means anything we do good for the Glory of God is as a filthy rag before God.

I take it to mean (from the context) that it is like the scribes and teachers of the law, being their lips draw near to me but their hearts are far. Therfore when one (each of us) in hypocracy declares our love for God all our sacrifices, prayers, token devotions and the likes are as filthy rags before God.

Aug

I am away from my work-texts tonight, so I cannot check the context of the quote (OT via St. Paul, isn’t it?) But considering that the righteousness of God, i.e. His fair-togetherness (which is what the term literally means in Biblical Greek), is intimately connected to His own self-existent existence as the First and the Last and the Living One, I can also see how any attempts of mine to establish a righteousness ‘of my own’ or ‘for myself’ must be as filthy rags at best. It is also highly dangerous for myself and (more importantly) for other people around me. (I am extremely tempted to quote anecdotes from my series of novels as examples… :sunglasses: )

Jason,
I too need to re-read the context on this passage. I would say though that if we were created to do good works IN Christ Jesus then these CANNOT be seen as filthy rags. I thus hold that any “good works” OUTSIDE Christ Jesus would not be equivalent to greed, self glorification or self serving interests. Thus The pharisees who praise God with their mouths but hearts were far from him (like Luke 18 - the tax collect and the pharisee praying) have a righteousness not of God and therfore is filthy rags. Those born in Christ and who do good works in him are seen as Christ doing the work and therfore is not as filthy rags.

Just some thoughts,

Aug

Certainly not. But then, as you say, that is the righteousness of Christ, not our “own” righteousness. There is no righteousness other than the righteousness of God.

I can’t for the life of me find the NT reference–I was sure it would be in Romans, but I must be too hungry to see it if it’s there. :wink: I did find the (probable) original OT ref in Isaiah 64, but my concordance (which is usually very good at linking refs up with each other) gives me no NT ref there. Weird.

Anyway. The Isaianic ref is very nifty, especially from an orthodox/evangelical universalistic standpoint; so I thought I would post up the chapter in its entirety. This is from the NASV translation. (Hebrew version treats first verse as ending previous chapter, which in this case I’d have to say is mistaken.)

1.) Oh that Thou wouldst rend the heavens and come down;
that the mountains might quake at Thy presence–
2.) as fire kindles the brushwood; as fire causes water to boil–
to make Thy name known to Thine adversaries!
The nations may tremble at Thy presence!
3.) When Thou didst awesome things which we did not expect,
Thou didst come down, the mountains quaked at Thy presence.
4.) For from of old they [the nations] have not heard nor perceived by ear,
neither has the eye seen a God besides Thee,
Who acts in behalf of the one who waits for Him.
5.) Thou dost meet him who rejoices in doing righteousness,
who remembers Thee in Thy ways.
Behold!–Thou wast angry, for we sinned,
[continuing] in them a long time;
and shall we be saved?!
6.) For all of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
and all of us wither like a leaf,
and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.
7.) And there is no one who calls on Thy name,
who arouses himself to take hold of Thee;
for Thou hast hidden Thy face from us,
and hast delivered [or melted] us
into the power of our iniquities.
[Note, btw, that sinful Israel is put on a par with the Gentiles here.]
8.) But now, O Lord, Thou art our Father!
We are the clay, and Thou our potter,
and all of us are the works of Thy hand!
9.) Do not be angry beyond measure, O Lord,
neither remember iniquity forever:
behold!–look now!–all of us are Thy people!
10.) Thy holy cities have become a wilderness,
Zion has become a wilderness,
Jerusalem a desolation.
11.) Our holy and beautiful house,
where our fathers praised Thee,
has been burned by fire!
And our precious things
have become a ruin.
12.) Wilt Thou restrain Thyself at these things, O Lord?
Wilt Thou keep silent and afflict us beyond measure?!

[The Lord’s answer to this appeal in the final two chapters of Isaiah is well worth reading, too. :sunglasses: But be sure to follow up the final verses with GosMark 9:49-50, where Jesus directly explains what’s going on in the final verses of Isaiah. :exclamation: ]

Sorry, I meant "I thus hold that any “good works” OUTSIDE Christ Jesus [size=150]would be[/size] equivalent to greed, self glorification or self serving interests.

Is there actually a direct quote of Isaiah 64:6 in the New Testament? {Or 64:5 depending on the chapter:verse division version we’re using…}

The most obvious links to this that I can see in Romans are in Ch. 7, vv. 18-25, and also, dovetailing together with what you say here:

… in the 1st half of Philippians 3, esp. vv. 7-11.

That 2nd reference comes quite a bit closer to the Isaianic passage, I think, since, from what I keep hearing and reading, Paul uses language that’s even more colourful than Isaiah’s here, because he describes all the advantageous things which he had thought to be blessed heritage combined with righteous action as some kind of excreta :open_mouth:

Some book I read in days long past said that the term Isaiah uses which is translated “filthy rags” actually means “soiled undergarments.” However, further and more recent reading has led in a much more specific direction saying that the term literally means “menstrual clothes.” There are purity regulations about this in the Torah, and I think that this detail, combined with the context of the rest of the chapter is saying something a bit different from the more popular interpretations of this reference.

The stain which would make the garment-type in Isaiah 64:6 unclean is the result of a natural bodily function created by God. The prophet’s use of it as a metaphor, I think, refers to the wrongdoers’ loss of control rather than to hypocrisy, moreover that it would be the kind of thing one would wish to be modest about (and for God to treat with a modicum of delicateness too) rather than parade around. In the second half of the verse:

In Biblical Hebrew “iniquities” are literally “twistednesses,” so perhaps this = we’ve been twisted so far out of shape that we’re no longer substantial (or maybe recognisable?). And ultimately YHWH seems to be the One left with the responsibility, per the request of His twisted and consumed/melted children, to regain control on their behalf, since He is the One Who is creating their shape after all! (See v. 8.)

Paralleled perhaps by Romans 1:18-25 in its statement that human unrighteousness is itself the revelation of God’s wrath?
[/quote]

When I was on the other side, oh, mabe 10 years ago now, I used to really believe this verse meant what so many have twisted this scipture to mean. This was context driven statement and in no way did Isaiah mean to imply that a righteous act from nothing better than dung. Whether someone knows Jesus, or merely his Spirit, a person doing righteousness is being righteous.

I John 3:7 “Little Children, those who do righteous are righteous, just as he is righteous” Amen. I think John was even hinting at a bit of pluralism in the sense that someone might be righteous and not know what is behind it all, I mean, the name. I certainly can see people following the spirit of God or Jesus Christ and not knowing anything about the man Jesus Christ and still be walking after God.

if Christ does all the ‘real’ work (as in, takes the initiative to see the work completed), I don’t think it quite fair to put limits on how He does His work based on strict interpretations of John 14:6. I mean, if Christ is the bridge, is it necessary to know the name of the bridge to cross it? Or is it just necessary to know that it is ‘the’ bridge? I’d argue the latter.

I also can’t imagine God being so vain that our opinion of him makes him angry for His sake. Certainly God deserves all honour and glory, but that doesn’t mean he demands it for his own sake. If he demands it, it must be for another reason altogether and i’d suggest for our sake does He demand this devotion. It must be demanded because it is for our own good. For a God who needs our worship, seems not much like a God at all and a God who bases his self-esteem on the devotion of some defective humans that only He can work towards their salvation seems even less of God. It seems like God is the deficient one in that relationship. In many ways, it makes God very co-dependant on us. This concept of God must be rejected!

As a father, I believe that God smiles when we do good. I believe it makes him glad. Even if or attempts at good fall short of him, only an evil father would be so cruel as to say “Your attempt at good is GARBAGE you filthy animal” Yeah… that is the way fathers encourage their sons and daughters, right? Yeah, no.

I tell you what, being a father has really opened my eyes to see God in a way I would have never been able to see. In fact, I am so hard pressed to believe fathers exist that believe God doesn’t do his best for everyone he created… That is so sad. How can a father not understand the love God has for us? I just can’t fathom it.

Yes indeed… Cornelius was such a man, the likes of which Peter goes on to say…

IMO… the evangelical notion that treats Jn 14:6 as a qualifying requirement or standard to be followed, typically in terms of performance-based acts of “confession” unto salvation, TOTALLY misses and misconstrues that verse. Jesus was NOT laying forth some “faith-based” agenda to be followed (as per ‘the Roman Road’ etc), no, Jesus was stating as simple FACT… anyone who has any degree of experience with/of God DOES SO solely on the basis of his meritorious work ALONE regardless of any personal knowledge or acknowledgment of him.

YES there is a place and benefit for such, BUT Jesus being the appointed ‘way, truth and life unto the Father’ is NOT dependent on any individual’s acknowledgment thereof.

.
[size=140]I have the following things to say about Gabe’s most recent post above:[/size]
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/Emoticons/goodpost.gif[size=140]and[/size]http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g374/Paidion9/Emoticons/amen_zps37b2220d.gif