Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. Mark 16:20

it is the word of God that is the core of the issue, imo. The adversary’s core paradigm is deception, indulgence and self glorification. The Lord’s is service, love, humility and the divine nature. Discernment is not by the signs- in fact it ought to be in spite of them.

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn. Isaiah 8:20

and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain. So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 2 Peter 1:19

Healings and signs occur in various persuasions and from various sources(perhaps even the prince of the power of the air )

When the adversary gets into the heart and mind of a person who has been gifted by God or has learned to apply the principles of faith, all kinds of perversity can abound.

When a flashy dressed man arrives off his jet in a limo I don’t have to look to hard for myself- its an easy read.

Since I believe in stewardship, I think it is possible to receive or even achieve certain things in the kingdom of God, and then to turn them towards ones own appetites for glory, acclaim and personal empire building. I think it is also common for the articles of faith to be perverted and supplanted by the “elementary principles” of the “god of this world” and “the spirit that now works in the sons of disobedience”.

See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. Col 2:18

As a matter of fact- this kind of story is repeated over and over in the scriptures, from Balaam to Saul to Jeroboam to Judas to Elymas to Simon the Sorcerer.

18 When Simon saw that the Spirit was given at the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money and said, “Give me also this ability so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.” Acts 8:9-25

When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they found a magician, a Jewish false prophet whose name was Bar-Jesus, who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence. This man summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God.8But Elymas the magician (for so his name is translated) was opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. But Saul, who was also known as Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, fixed his gaze on him, and said, “You who are full of all deceit and fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease to make crooked the straight ways of the Lord? “Now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and not see the sun for a time.” And immediately a mist and a darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking those who would lead him by the hand. Then the proconsul believed when he saw what had happened, being amazed at the teaching of the Lord. Acts 13:6-12

Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Gal 5:20

Webster defines sorcery as “the use of magical powers that are obtained through evil spirits…” but the Greek word in the scriptures is “pharmekia”.

Regardless of means and sources and methods- a sorcerer’s primary desire is to be a Great One and to exercise control over people, and usually, to accumulate the privileges and wealth that accompanies the adoration and subservience of a mass of people. There are a lot of sorcerers in popular religion, both in the East and in the West.

“For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,” 2 Pet 2:18

For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. Phil 3:19

But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. James 3

These people always cause trouble. Their minds are corrupt, and they have turned their backs on the truth. To them, a show of godliness is just a way to become wealthy. 1 Tim 6:5(paraphrse)

Like Nebuchanezzar’s Head of Gold, they have clay feet and usually get exposed eventually… but as Paul said to Timothy, "Some men’s sins go before them into judgment, some men’s sins follow after.’ 1 Tim 5:24

One of the three results listed above, would be obtained by praying to your coffee cup.

I find the summary in the Sufi story, to be the most important point at TALKS WITH A SUFI SHAYKH:

Or as one indigenous person, considered to be a holy person, once said:

Now the Catholic priests, with the gifts of healing…the medicine men/medicine women/Holy People of indigenous tribes…the Catholic and Eastern orthodox saints…saints from the East and Sufis…the Jewish saintly people …**the real ones **- agree with the answers, given by the Sufi and Native American holy persons.

They don’t:

Advertise
Sell tickets
Take huge chunks of donations for fancy mansions, yachts, luxury cars, etc.
Etc.

Now rich people, who learn about them…might try to tempt them…with the trappings of wealth, fame and fortune - all for the person gain of the wealthy (who do the tempting). But the true saints, will be true to the end and stay the course.

The rest They echo the words of Ed Sullivan:

Now folks like A.A. Allen might be sincere and have some healing gift…I don’t know. But he should sh;y away from a circus atmosphere and let God guide the people to him.

One assumes if it was “instant” coffee you’d have your healing on the spot…

Sooo funny but true. Thanks for the laugh!

Randy, in reference to your article, I think that God has many partners. We All have a “supernatural” gift from God. It’s called the mind/intelligence. We just have to put it to good use.

To the coffee enthusiasts. If you use coffee for healing, you have solid grounds on which to base things.

And it was Captain Kirk, who once said something to the logical based Spock. It was along the lines regarding intuition. It’s called the **Enemy Within ** episode.

But it’s usually based upon experience.

Take homeopathy, for instance. I’ve been studying it for years. But most outside the homeopathic circles, attribute it to the placebo effect. But if I pick the wrong remedy…no matter how much I believe in it…it won’t work. Or a professional I know, giving the correct remedy. It doesn’t work. But when he uses the same one, from the Hahnemann Laboratories in the US - it works.
Or this from the Sufi story:

Or the holy persons, asking the scientific minded people - to do strange things. Like the Sufi in the story, putting honey on a wound. It is cured, without any problem or infection.
Or the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends journal. Containing cases of spirally healing, where traditional medical science has failed. And all the traditional medical approaches are included. And physician testimony included, that saying these healing events are impossible - by medical standards.
Or another holy person from the East, asking someone with diabetes, to eat a heavy saturated sugar product. They do and are cured of diabetes
Or the medicine man, asking the sick person to participate in a ceremony. They get cured.
Or another person from the East, who can change his blood pressure, radically at will - within a few seconds. And a close friend - then a nursing assistant - is administering the blood pressure test.
Or my mom - now deceased at 92.5 - having the lifelong gift of prophesy. And she tells me as a Boy Scout teenager, to take an umbrella to a parade. None of the weather TV or radio services forecast rain. And I got ribbed by fellow scouts. Until there was a downpour, in the middle of the parade. And I was the only one - with an umbrella.
Or the medical doctor, who proclaims a person dead - during a Native gathering. The person had heart issues. But a medicine man does a quick prayer and short ceremony. And they spring back to life. And the paramedics and doctors afterwards, can find no issue on medical tests.
Or the Eastern Orthodox holy person, telling someone to throw away their prescribed medicine. They did and got cured.

Perhaps all these things are testing our scientific perspectives, reason and logic

Speaking of reason and logic. On my second visit to the neighborhood Mosque open house, the host said he set up a Q and A session - just for me. He directed to ask anything I wanted, from the residential PhD scholar. Perhaps this is a sign of honor? Or they don’t want to deal, with my difficult questions

The redeeming factor is that the people in this particular mosque - are highly educated. They send their children on to become doctors, engineers and IT professionals.

Paidion, curious… What was the ‘gospel’ that the person heard in Chinese? That God loves him and he believes, he won’t burn in Hell? It would be more believable if he could provide what it actually said in Chinese since we are supposed to test the spirits. Meaning this: What about God giving a lying spirit to people (or Satan, depending on your interpretation) - Doesn’t that mean all supernatural events could either be of God, or of Satan? Thus, what would it prove? I mean, I am not challenging anything you are saying, I am more thinking out loud. It would only bring us back to the discernment phase, would it not?

True, but my first thought was the parable of the Rich man and Lazarus. No miracle was needed and will not be given… Just the law and the prophets. Though one could argue that is precisely why Jesus did NOT give a sign, because they had ‘other’ signs. Perhaps the Chinese person had no signs.

This is too much conjecture, even for me.

Again, the mind is an amazing thing. I don’t think that we will ever be able to fully comprehend how it all works. When my kids were little, we’d be out at the playground, and of course one of them would always happen to fall and get a scape or two. I would pick up a leaf, put it on the scape and tell them that the leaf had magical healing powers. I’d hold it on there and slowly count to ten;after which, they’d be off running and playing again as if they felt no pain at all. It worked every time until they got a little older and found out that I was basically full of crap. It really had nothing with the leaf but only the fact that they were no longer dwelling on the pain.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. I don’t think the early Hebrews ever really believed in Satan or demons as outside evil spirits( the kind that float around in the air).This idea may have been introduced later, by other pagan cultures. So casting out demons may have also been in reference to casting aside a belief that didn’t belong. (It’s just hogwash, pardon the pun. ) Okay, maybe my humor isn’t all that great. Back to the topic. If people are led to believe that there are outside evil spirits that can control one’s mind, then they will come to think that there is nothing they can do to change it. However, the Bible tells us differently. Philippians 4:8 says whatever things are true, noble, just, pure, lovely, etc. etc.-meditate on them. 2 Timothy 1:7 says “For God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” Being renewed in the mind is not only dwelling on things of God but also getting rid of false ideas and believing what is true. The mind requires discipline. We must learn to “bring every thought into captivity” and not let them run amok. We do have the power to do this.

When the doctors - the “experts” - say a disease is incurable. And their medical tests - the “experts scientific tests” - indicate it. And they say there’s nothing more that can be done. Then the people go to a Catholic healing site, invoke a saint, enter a healing ceremony, do the Bruno Groening meditation, and get healed…What do we conclude from science, reason and logic? And what do we conclude, when someone witnesses these things first hand?

I’m not a rational person? It’s kind of like telling Africans (i.e. rational scientific minded folks), what snow is like. Not don’t get me wrong. I’ve been trained in science, just like others. I had courses in physics, math, psychology, statistics, philosophy, logic and computer science. I can talk this game, as good as any scientist. And I can implement logic, as good as anyone. But there’s another world out there - that contains the winters and snow. If you haven’t visited it, they you will never know it exists.

But then, I’m not using the scientific method – right? Even if I hung around PhD folks in physics and medical doctors. Or took courses in homeopathy, where I was the only layman, in a room full of medical doctors. Or I worked with electrical and mechanical engineers at Motorola. Or I earned a black belt in statistical methodology at Motorola and guided many engineers there. And when I earned the black belt, I had to be approved - by a committee of “experts”. And answer any question - they put forward. Much like a PhD dissertation committee. Or I had to know enough about statistics and experimental psychology, to earn a masters from Norwich University. Or I worked with Java, Unix and Windows servers, Oracle and SQL Server - while doing software engineering at Motorola. I’m not scientific, logical or rational enough. Right?

So, LLC. What can you teach me, so I can be more logical, scientific and rational And not get my current learning, from the Holy Fools tradition So hit me with you best shot

And most important. What is your answer to the tree in the forest - making a sound riddle?

Spot on my friend. I think the Bible was ahead of it’s time in regards to neuroplasticity. Meaning, the truths are truth because belief is how we self limit ourselves… That is why, I believe, that Jesus stressed ‘if you believe’. Not that belief in itself has power (though it does have some) but that it opens up the door to expect and experience the power. Effectively, we don’t close it out.

And that does raise some interesting questions, on both the mind and belief. And time for this Holy Fool trainee (I even have a train tie clip - to prove it), to learn from the experts:

For LLC. Are the limits of the mind unknown? And could there be abilities and talents, that we are not currently using? So perhaps one day, we might have the mind, of Q of Star Trek? Or perhaps some have spiritually figured out, how to tap into levels of mind - we don’t realize are there (in ancient yoga literature, they called it Siddhi) ?
For Gabe: If I watch Joel Osteen on TV (which I do - weekly). And he talks about being more healthy and prosperous. Does it all boil down to my belief (and “tapping into the power”) and I can really, be more healthy and prosperous now?

I had to update my signature a bit. Now it reads Holy Fool Trainee + Honorary Doctorate of Nerdom. They refuse to give me a promotion, until I’m more like Murdoch of the A-Team, and Curly Howard, of the Three Stooges.

Jesus gave many signs…

Then he told John’s disciples, "Go back to John and tell him what you have seen and heard–the blind see, the lame walk, the lepers are cured, the deaf hear, the dead are raised to life, and the Good News is being preached to the poor. Luke 7:22

10And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him. 11And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12“How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him. Mt 12

Just not to those who sought them… and not on demand…and not the ones they wanted.

The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and** testing Jesus**,** they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven**. 2But He replied to them, “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ 3“And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? 4“An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah.” And He left them and went away.

Those who seek signs over truth receive nothing.

“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp. John 10

Those who sought for signs did not believe the signs when they came because the words reproved their adulterous hearts.

As the crowds increased, Jesus said, “This is a wicked generation. It asks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah”. Luke 11

But those He was seeking and drawing received signs.

Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. Mk 16:20

Hi, Eaglesway. How do you tie together, what you said in the last post, with this bible verse?

I wish I could answer your questions. But how can I? I wasn’t present at the event. I related only what my sister Lorraine (who was present) told me. Unfortunately, I cannot question her further about the matter as she died in 1998.

As long as we don’t:

I think Jesus was often speaking to, and dealing with, multiple aspects of the human condition. Jesus tested the woman at His table, “Should the dogs receive before the children?”, He says.

She responds, “Yet the dogs receive scraps from the children’s table”.

Jesus marvels, “I have not seen so great a faith in all Israel”.

Why?.. I don’t know- but He knows.

With the official in John 4:48, He tested the man, “Unless you people see a sign you will never believe”. The man’s heart came through his eyes and his words and Jesus saw the love the man had for his son in his response. Tests passed so, “Go your way your son is healed”

I don t think Jesus knew all things as He walked as a man on earth. At times He saw right through all the veils in a person, but he did not see all things yet. “Who touched Me? I felt virtue go forth from Me”.

“If you believe you will be healed”. I believe, help thou my unbelief"

What do you see? “I see men as trees walking”.

Many marvels, many signs wrought out of love for the person upon whom they were visited- but not everyone was, or is, so visited.

I think Jesus was often speaking to, and dealing with, multiple aspects of the human condition. Jesus tested the woman at His table, “Should the dogs receive before the children?”, He says.

She responds, “Yet the dogs receive scraps from the children’s table”.

Jesus marvels, “I have not seen so great a faith in all Israel”.

Why?.. I don’t know- but He knows.

With the official in John 4:48, He tested the man, “Unless you people see a sign you will never believe”. The man’s heart came through his eyes and his words and Jesus saw the love the man had for his son in his response. Tests passed so, “Go your way your son is healed”

I don t think Jesus knew all things as He walked as a man on earth. At times He saw right through all the veils in a person, but he did not see all things yet. “Who touched Me? I felt virtue go forth from Me”.

“If you believe you will be healed”. I believe, help thou my unbelief"

What do you see? “I see men as trees walking”.

Many marvels, many signs wrought out of love for the person upon whom they were visited- but not everyone was, or is, so visited.

Gabe, thanks for your comment.

Randy, who knows the power of the mind? I believe physical stamina, people who can walk on hot coals with bare feet and contortionists would be cases of mind over matter. As for the healing process, since we are both mind/spirit and body/ physical, there would be many factors involved. They say that laughter is the best medicine. I believe there is some truth in this. I watched a show once. I think it was called “Change Your Brain”. The brains scans of those who were happy in life showed warm colors. However, scans of unhappy people showed patches of dark. Over a period of time the unhappy were trained to think happy thoughts and their brain scans changed.

On another note, my daughter, who is somewhat of a perfectionist, fell into the trap that many others fall into. They don’t believe they have a gift because they can’t sit down at a piano and instantly play like Beethoven, or they can’t pick up a brush and instantly produce such works as Michelangelo. So they don’t even want to try. This isn’t how it works. As Eaglesway pointed out, this is what people expect to see as a “sign from God”. But as Jesus said, no sign will be given. I think what He was saying is that the signs are already there. If one can’t see the miracles of God right in front of your face, then you will never see them. People go to church and hear some speak, as qaz puts it, in “non-human language” and say “what a miracle”. I, on the other hand, turn on the faucet and say “what a miracle”. My kids think I’m crazy. But, we all just take such things for granted without really thinking about how it all came to be. It is by the God given gift of the mind; the minds of the many, each with their own talent working together to produce it.