It is like lacking either of them would represent zero in a multiplicative equation. If any of them are lacking, nothing matters. But, I do find the 1st Kor 13 ends with 'Faith, Hope and Love, the greatest of these is Love" quite interesting.

Quote from Eaglesway: Works are important, as the fruit of salvation, testifying to its validity- but not as the means to it

As soon as we “stand in works” we have entered the original error of spirit that becomes that same failure Paul spoke of…

"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32** Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works**. They stumbled over the stumbling stone…(Rom 9)
[/quoteEphesians) 2:10New International Version (NIV)

Ephesians 2:8English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

[b]
If it is a gift, then there is nothing we need to do to get it. Correct?

Romans 3:28English Standard Version (ESV)

28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

**What I am realizing is that works are an outcome of our love, trust and faith in God, and of His presence in us, His grace. I believe He wants us to know that Salvation is a FREE GIFT, and as such, does not require works. He wants us to know it is His mercy and love, that brings us home. There is nothing we can do that will override that…I think God is shouting that His grace is the chariot to Heaven. **

I am not sure if this too simplistic, but just in case this is helpful, this is the way I currently think of it.

“Works” are spoken of in 2 ways in the bible

1 Works of faith, love, obedience by the grace of God. These works are always spoken of positively in the bible.

2 Works of the law. Works done as our job description to earn salvation from God our “employer”. Works done in our own strength and not by the grace of God. Works not done in faith. These works are never called good works. They are a failure to do good works. They are not what God means by “obedience”. They are always spoken of negatively in the bible.

So when Paul says we are not justified by works of the law, he is referring to works number 2.
When James says we are justified by works, and not by faith alone he is referring to works number 1.

Any thoughts?

I can agree with you, about the two types of work: works of the law and works of the Spirit,and you would be right to say I should have made a distinction from the beginning, but, it still does not negate that Salvation is a free gift. I still hold to that.

I believe works of the Spirit are an outcome of our surrendering our life to God; of our dying to ourselves, but, it still seems to me that Salvation comes through faith, and that we are then rewarded, according to the works generated from our faith, but that the works in and of themselves do not save us. That is a gift of grace, I believe.

I will confess, I am learning ‘on the go’ at times, on this website, as I am being challenged with thoughts, ideas, and especially viewpoints and perspectives, which I did not have to sort out in the same way, before.

Bare with me, if you will. I appreciate it.

Thats pretty much it in a nutshell.

This Faith/Works subject is tricky, and one that has unfortunately caused much division in the history of the church.

I agree that salvation is a free gift.

I agree that Salvation comes through faith - but what kind of faith? James says that salvation comes through faith that works together with its actions, and not by faith alone. James 2:24

I am not sure if this is what you are thinking Dandelion, but I know many godly Christians who teach that if salvation is a free gift, then salvation must come through faith alone apart from the works of faith.
They teach that if salvation comes through faith, together with the works of faith produced by the Spirit of God, then salvation is not a free gift. (I do not understand this logic)
They try and separate faith from its works in salvation, because they think that this is what Paul was trying to do.

I do not agree. I think this confuses the 2 different uses of the term “works” (Also, I think Paul would hopelessly contradict Jesus and the rest of the bible if he was saying this).
I think Paul was saying that if salvation is earned by works of the law done by our own efforts, then salvation is not a free gift.
I do not see any reason why salvation cannot be considered a free gift if it comes to us through faith together with the works of faith empowered by the Spirit of God.

Thoughts?

Actually, I never even think that faith is separate from works.

I was raised Catholic, and went to Catholic school for 12 years. I had Ursuline nuns and lay teachers, working with them. My principal was my role model, a godly woman, a nun, who was above and beyond true to her order’s motto: SERVIUM.

One of my personal beliefs is this: Your life is your ministry, and your storm is your message.

So, no, I am not one of those people who say faith saves, so sit back and relax. For me, surrender is God’s request…to die to self, so that we can be fruitful, and carry out His will. I believe each of our lives have a calling…no matter how insignificant or how magnificent it might seem to the world, each has a place in God’s plan.

But, what I do believe is that God wants us to know that Salvation is a gift, that nothing need add to or take away from, to make that so. If we have given our lives to Him, we will do good works, as the branches are connected to the vine.

So, yes, I absolutely agree with you. Works do not detract from Salvation being a free gift, but are an outcome of the grace we receive.

Mainly I have but one thought about this, Craig. I am 100% in agreement with it!

Thanks Randy for the excellent video. I think it presents some issues very well.
It shows that being welcomed as a child of God is not based on trying to live a good life, or on hoping that the good deeds offset the bad and so tip the scales in the right direction, or being proud of the good things I have done and not acknowledging my sin, or what my parents did, or being baptised, or giving money - but on God’s grace and being in relationship with Christ. It shows that being accepted by God is not based on “fairness”. If we got what we deserved we would all end up “on the left”.

The only question I have about it concerns the idea that Jesus’ life will be judged instead of mine. This is the traditional Protestant idea that I held to for many years and sounds very nice because it lets me totally off the hook. In the last few years, I have read a bit more widely in Protestant, New Perspective, and Catholic theology and studied the bible more, and I am not sure that this adequately represents the bible’s teaching concerning God’s judgement.

As much as I would like the video to be true at this point, there are many bible passages relating to God’s judgement (and not just how many rewards we get after being accepted on the right) that focus on the way we have lived our lives - what we have done. For example
John 5:29
Matt 25:31-46
Matt12:33-37
Rom 2:5-11
Rev 20:11-13
Rom 14:12
2 Cor 5:10

Also, many people in the bible who were not sinless, are said to be righteous in the way they lived their lives. For example
Matt 1:19 Mary’s husband Joseph
Luke 1:5,6 John the Baptist’s parents Zechariah and Elizabeth
Luke 2:25 Simeon
Luke 23:50,51 Joseph of Arimathea
Acts 10:22 Cornelius
Mark 6:20 John the Baptist
Heb 11:4 Abel
Gen 6:8,9 Heb 11:7 Noah
James 2:25,26 Rahab
Psalm 1:6 The true people of God are called righteous
1Thes 2:10 Paul, Silas and Timothy
Matt 25:46 The “righteous” are the “sheep” who are commended for their righteous deeds.

So I think the bible does teach that we will be judged according to the way we have lived.
But I also think that the bible teaches that those who humbly live by faith are considered righteous, forgiven, and accepted by God and God’s Spirit is at work in their lives to bring forth fruit that truly pleases God.

Edited to add some more thoughts
A problem is that the last man’s book was treated like it didn’t matter. It was thrown away. I think the bible indicates that our book does matter. God is very concerned about the way we live and is at work through his Spirit to make us more like Christ.

From what I understand, the works of the law were not the works of God. They were the works of the Jewish law, doctrines of men. These were things such as the sacrificing of animals, the washing of cups and plates, circumcision, etc. These things do not save. Salvation is the word of God and is open to all people, not just a select few who set up their own rules on what it takes to be saved. God’s word tells us how to live spiritual lives here on Earth. But the words are only words unless we act upon them. We don’t lie, cheat, steal, etc. because we believe in God, and He tells us not to do these things, but this is only part of it. For as long as we live on Earth, there will always be sin and sinners, and people who suffer the consequences thereof. The people of God must continually work to counteract this. These works must be done in the Spirit of God-compassion, forgiveness, love. Doing the work of the Holy Spirit changes our hearts as well as the hearts of those who receive.These are the words of God, and this is what saves.

Well, the video did teach me one thing - not to say:

Contrary to their commercials, the card is **not **accepted everywhere!

We can only love (works) to the degree that we believe (faith) we are loved.
The more we believe we are loved the easier to love others. I believe that James was basically saying that trying to love without believing we are loved is impossible.

We believe we are loved because someone showed us love. The words “I love you” don’t mean anything unless they are backed up with some kind of action. Otherwise, it’s simply lip service.

If salvation is a free gift from God, then neither faith nor work would be required. Salvation requires a change of some sort. This takes work on our part in order for the change to occur.

This is a difficult subject, but in IMO you are in danger of going too far LLC.

The bible says two seemingly contradictory things
1 There are things we need to do to be saved - repent, believe the gospel, follow Christ, persevere, etc. Salvation is conditional on these things.
2 Salvation is a free gift
Rom 6:23 “but the gift of God is eternal life”,
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God.

I think we need to be careful to avoid two extremes
1 Minimising what we need to do. Some people I know speak of faith as “nothing”. They want to emphasise that salvation is a gift and so they think they need to minimise our response.
2 Minimising salvation as a gift.

I believe both are true. We don’t need to minimise either one.

Say a missionary doctor came to a village where all the people were suffering a terrible disease, and he had some medicine that could cure them. In order to be healed, each person had to turn from the witchdoctor’s magic and trust the doctor that his medicine would heal them. They had to act on their faith and swallow the medicine in order to be healed.
I think it could be said that the people needed to do something in order to be healed. They needed faith and to act on that faith, but the healing from the doctor could still be seen as a free gift. Trusting in the doctor and taking his medicine could not be seen as “earning” the healing. The doctor did not “owe” these people anything. He brought medicine out of his grace.

What do you think?

Craig, you gave an excellent example. In fact, I was thinking along the same lines myself. Salvation means to be rescued from danger, harm, difficulty, etc. Sin separates us from God and causes destruction in our lives. God’s word is the prescription, but it must be followed in order for it to work. People may not like to hear this, but the prescription includes works. John 6:27 “Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life.” Jesus gave His life as an example for us to follow. John 13:15 “For I have given you an example, that you should do as I have done to you.” God Himself came to Earth to serve, and we are to be servants as well. In John 21:16 Jesus asks, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me? He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend My sheep.”

This work is not prescribed because we must “earn” our salvation in the sense that we are unworthy in the eyes of the Lord, but it is acquired as a result of effort or action on our part. The world in which we live is in perpetual motion. Everything on it works for a purpose, including man. Things aren’t just handed to us on a silver platter. Alcoholics sit on the street corner holding signs, some of them using God’s word to make us feel guilty if we don’t give them money. Is this good for them? Does it save or help them in any way if we hand them cash? No, in fact it only exacerbates the problem. There are food banks and shelters available for people in need. They should be at one of these shelters getting food, and meanwhile helping out by doing dishes, mopping floors, etc. Our society today has become one of entitlements. People have the idea that they shouldn’t have to work for anything anymore. Even the churches are getting lazy. We go to church, listen to some music followed by the sermon and think that this is all there is to it.
Meanwhile, our society is crumbling down around us.

One of the things I taught my children was good work ethic. They have been working since they were knee-high, picking up trash at apartment complexes, pulling weeds, helping out their grandparents, and many other things. If they made a mess, they cleaned it up. Now, some today may consider this child abuse. But, working is good for us mentally as well as physically. It gives us a sense of accomplishment, pride, self-esteem, keeps our minds occupied etc.

No, I don’t think I’ve gone far in saying this. We all need to get back to work because faith AND works are both necessary ingredients for salvation.

Great post. Exactly how I feel.

Well said LLC. I think you have expressed well our responsibility to “work out our salvation” (Phil 2:12), “labour” (Col 1:28), “do everything” (Phil 4:13), and “work hard” (1 Cor 15:10). A much needed emphasis.

My encouragement is to continue to do all these things, while remembering the rest of these verses that speak of God’s enabling, undeserved grace.
“work out your salvation…for it is God is God who works in you” (Phil 2:12), “labour…struggling with all God’s energy which so powerfully works in me” (Col 1:28), "do everything…through Him who gives me strength (Phil 4:13), work hard…yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me (1 Cor 15:10). Apart from Christ we can do nothing (John 15:5).

My concern is not for your good emphasis on works. You have not gone too far in saying this.

My concern was from your previous post when you said

I may be misreading this, but my concern is that while you continue to emphasise the importance of works, that you also maintain the foundational emphasis on the undeserved grace of God in our salvation.

Blessings
Craig.

Gabe, Thanks for your comment.

Craig, Thanks for your comments as well.
My thought is that the problem lies in the wording of it all. In saying that salvation is a gift from God, we say it is free and therefore requires no action or works on our part. All we have to do is have faith. But as James says, “Faith without works is dead.” No faith is also dead. So it’s basically the same as saying that neither faith nor works is required. The gift is God’s word, given to us and carried out by God Himself in person,and the price He paid for doing so. This being done out of love for us. Salvation is the result of following His word. There is a purpose for the works. They are an integral part of God’s word.

1. As I mentioned before, they build us up spiritually
2. We are a part of the working creation, and if we fail to work, the creation suffers. For example, the heart is a part of the body, if it quits working we die. Ecclesiastes 10:18 says "Because of laziness the building decays, and through idleness of hands the house leaks.
3. We instruct others who are trapped in sin and provide a refuge to those who suffer.

There may be more reasons than these. As you’ve noticed, I do stress the works, not that I think faith is unimportant. On the contrary, I believe faith is just as important. But, in observation of the world at present, I think the works are being neglected.