When you enter into an agreement to purchase a house, how do you clinch the deal so that it is certain to go through? Is believing that the seller will honour the agreement sufficient? No. Is accepting the agreement sufficient? No. Is making a down payment sufficient? No. Is putting your trust in the seller to honour his word sufficient? No.

The thing that clinches the deal is the “outward formality” of signing the agreement. That and only that will clinch the deal. So it is with baptism. You can believe that Christ will save you. You can accept Him. You can commit your time and money to his service. You can trust Christ to honour His word. But none of these things “clinch the deal”. Only baptism does that. Even non-Christians understand this. In many countries, a person from another religion can attend Christian meetings, believe what they teach, spend time and money in the church, or virtually any other activity except being baptized. If they are baptized, they face the possibility of being killed and the certainty of being ostracized by their family.

The early Christians definitely believed that baptism was not only necessary, but was the moment when a person was regenerated. Outwardly he simply went down into the water. But inwardly, he died to his former nature, and was regenerated.

He saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit. Titus 3:5

I realize that many do not interpret “the washing of regeneration” as baptism. But in what other sense would regeneration be called a “washing”? Here is a passage from Justin Martyr’s (110 – 165 A.D) First Apology or explanation of the way of Christians to the Roman emperor Augustus Caesar:

I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when
were being made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be
unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and
believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live
accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the
remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them.
Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in
the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name
of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus
Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.
For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the
kingdom of heaven. Now, that it is impossible for those who have once
been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how
those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by
Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make
you clean; put away the evil of your doings from your souls; learn to do
well; judge the fatherless, and plead for the widow: and come and let us
reason together, saith the Lord. And though your sins be as scarlet, I will
make them white like wool; and though they be as crimson, I will make
them white as snow. But if ye refuse and rebel, the sword shall devour
you: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.”

And for this we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at
our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our
parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked
training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of

ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may
obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is
pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of
his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; he who
leads to the laver the person that is to be washed calling him by this name
alone.

Baptism … now saves you … 1Peter 3:21

Peter is not saying that the ritual of baptism saves, but that true baptism which includes repentance and submission to Christ saves, and provides a clear conscience.

He who believes and is baptized will be saved… Mark 16:16

While it is possible that the above passage was not in the original memoir of Mark, whoever wrote it, did not seem to think believing was sufficient, or he would not have added “and is baptized”.

When did the apostle Paul have his sins washed away? Was it at the time he had the vision of Christ, and was told by Christ what to do? No. By his own account, it was at the time of his baptism. Cornelius had said to him:

And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ Acts 22:16

When Peter told the gathered Jews that they had put to death God’s Messiah, and they were cut to the heart, that was a special moment when they were open to evangelism. Did Peter haul out the four spiritual laws, or ask them to accept Christ as their personal Saviour? No, he said:

Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified." Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:36-38

It was the same message that John the baptizer had given. Repent and be baptized for the forsaking of your sins. Jesus, too, called for repentance, and those who followed Him and entered into the Kingdom, were baptized by His disciples.

Paul also taught in Romans 6, that those who have been baptized into Christ were buried by baptism into death. Our old self was crucified so that we might no longer be enslaved to sin. So again, baptism is the way salvation from sin is clinched.

Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin. For he who has died is freed from sin. Romans 6:3-7

Again, I realize that some spiritualize the baptism mentioned in this passage. I believe the passage speaks of regular baptism.

My point of view is a little different. Baptism saves. It is step two in the marriage ceremony with Christ and just as crossing the Red Sea saved Israel baptism saves us. The question is, what does “save” mean. The word “sozo”(Gr) means to heal, deliver, make whole". IMO baptism is one step in our healing from sin, our deliverance from Adam and this world system, and our wholeness in Christ and His kingdom.

Peter speaks of baptism as “the answer of a clear conscience”, and as Paidon illustrated, it is like the signature on a deed, the wedding ring on the finger of bride and groom, and this is one valid effect of baptism.

I believe regenration is effected at the point of repentance and faith towards God, but I do believe there is a saving effect in baptism.

Peter uses the flood of Noah as an example, and as at the Red Sea, there is a separating and sanctifying “effect” that takes place in baptism, in my opinion(which isnt the popular opinion by the way ). The ark ushered Noah and his family out of the old world that was being done away, and into the new world.

" Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you"(1 Pet 3) does NOT mean “saves you from hell”. That is where(imo) the problem has always come in. As Davo wrote, understanding scripture is often about mindset, and what we hear. Jesus said, "Be careful how you hear. That “mindset” of hellism has skewed the “hearing” of the word “saved” so that every use of it is negative and reads in the mind- “saved from hell”, which raises an objection in the conscience to baptismal salvation- and rightly so if that were what was meant, but it wasnt.

For the early disciples, baptism never had anything to do with condemnation.

The question is really not, “Must I be baptized to be saved?” as in, to escape hell. The question is, “If the scriptures say that baptism contributes to my salvation, healing, wholeness(and they clearly do), to what extent and how, does it do so”. To what extent does baptism heal you and make you whole. To what extent does it contribute to your deliverance from the grip of the world system and facilitate your continuing entrance into the kingdom of God?

1 It seals the transaction between you and Christ, as a wedding ring or a signature on a contract.
2 It is a burial of the “old man” and all the “body of the sins of the flesh”- clearing the conscience in regards to past sins.
3 It is an act of separation from the world system, a “crossing over”, like Noah and the flood, or the Exodus from Egypt
4 It buries the “strong man” as Pharoah and his armies were buried beneath the Red Sea, breaking the hold of the carnal mind through"faith in the operation of God"
5 It is simple obedience to the word of God, which alsways has a healing and delivering effect.

There is a narrative in 2nd Kings ch 5 where a great captain(Namaan) of the Assyrians goes to Elijah to be healed of his leprousy. Elijah tells him to dip 7 times in the Jordan river. Namaan disdains to do so at first, saying, “I can dip in the Euphrates, a great clean river, rather than the dirty ol Jordan” and prepares to leave, insulted. His servant says, “Hey Namaan, what have you got to lose, you asked the man of God what to do and he said to dip 7 times in the Jordan”.

Namaan reconsidered, dipped 7 times in the Jordan and was healed. This is “faith in the operation of God”. It was never about heaven or hell because Jesus wasnt speaking from that paradigm, nor was Paul, nor was Peter. They were simply delivering one step by which God has given us healing, deliverance and wholeness through the gospel- by grace through faith, but that faith in His word and that grace to believe and obey and receive from it healing, deliverance, wholeness.

There was never an “or else” given with the command to be baptized. It is a blessing, and in my opinion it has a healing and delivering effect that goes beyond simple ritual, and bears no condemnation in it.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”(Acts 2:37-39)

Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.(Rom 6:3,4)

Buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. (Col 2:12)

He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.(1 Pet 3:19-22)

I struggled with this for many years, but in the end, I decided to get baptized. I think the reason I decided to get baptized is because someone asked me what reason do I have for not getting baptized? I had no good reason. I wanted to be obedient to the word.

As far as it being necessary for salvation? No, I don’t think so. Here is why:

1. Not everyone even knows about Baptism. So if someone never heard of it, they won’t get baptized. If this is crucial to overcome sin, or receiving the Holy Spirit, it is an unjust method to receive it, in my opinion.

2. Thief on the cross. Yes, I know many appeal to this guy so many times, but the fact remains, he repented without water baptism.

3. God demonstrated that even commands disobeyed whether by ignorance or special circumstances may not always bring his wrath. David did what was not lawful when he ate the bread, but no judgement came down on him. Saul, on the other hand, did what was not lawful and judgement did come down on him. Therefore, the breaking of the law or command must not be what God looks at, but the intent behind it. God searches our motives behind the deed, not the deed itself. He judges us based on our motives, which is the only right way to judge. We, as humans, cannot do that, because we don’t know the motives of our brethren and the only way we can get an understanding of them is by observing their behavior.

That said, whether it saves you or not, we are obligated to follow the commands of Jesus. Therefore, once one realizes the call to obedience, he must respond with that obedience or have the heart that desires too.

“Necessary to salvation” treats salvation as an event rather than a process, I think. I agree that entering salvation requires nothing but repentance and faith towards God through receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior.

Baptism further saves(heals, makes whole)

The Holy Spirit continues to save(heal, make whole) through progressive sanctification and renewal, because(imo) salvation is a process within a state of being entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, but grown as we “abide in the vine” and “continue in the the word”.

We were saved, we are being saved, we will be saved.

Definitely, I altogether agree that there is no good reason to not be baptized

John the Baptised said that there will come one who baptises with Spirit and Fire.
Is the water baptism necessary for that?
Then there where some people in the NT who already recieved the Holy Spirit without beeing baptised with water…

I was running today as per usual and I often think about scripture, sometimes thoughts just come without any effort. Sometimes in my dreams I am able to interpret verses in a different light. Anyhow, I believe I had, what I believe for myself was an “ah ha!” moment. It was about this verse:

What if it means this: Whoever believes, and is thus baptized by the Holy Spirit, will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

If it means that, then this verse makes all the more sense. One who doesn’t believe in the Truth (Christ, or perhaps more abstract forms of his Truth) can hardly be baptized by the Holy Spirit, for such a one doesn’t believe in the Truth. Therefore, such a person is condemned in that state. In this case, Baptism has nothing to do with a water act, but with God who does the Baptizing. This, to me, lines up perfectly with the fact that John said one would come who baptizes with Spirit and Fire. In fact, surprised I never really made the correlation until recently. If one goes with this interpretation, it provides a more ‘just’ means of obtaining salvation world wide. From ‘every nation, every tribe…’

If we maintain this is merely a water baptism act, then quite clearly, the truth isn’t universally made known to all. For many such never heard of the man Jesus… But, they have seen and heard of Truth, which is why I support a more abstract rendering of John 14:6 which maintains that Truth is found in all of God’s creation, because Christ himself created the world and that all such people have a chance, provided they obey the Truth, to be the special few who are called to reign with Christ for the purpose of their fellow brethren.

That said, I see nothing wrong with water baptism and would definitely say to any Christian, do it. But we may all be missing the mark on this one big time. We may be the dull disciples that MacDonald talks about. We may be the ones who take the letter and not understand the spirit behind it.

If by “merely” you mean doing nothing more than go under the water and come up, then it is no more than a ceremony.
It is true that OUTWARDLY, a baptized person is merely being immersed in water and coming back up again, INWARDLY the person is dying to self and coming up as a new person in Christ Jesus!

So I agree that is merely an outward act, it has no more efficacy than the water you bathe in. But when the important event occurs BOTH inwardly and outwardly, you are regenerated.

That was a special case—a case that no longer applies to anyone.

Jesus said to his disciples, "But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the uttermost parts of the earth.” (Acts 1:8)
This was a gradual process. In the case you are mentioning, the spread of the gospel was at stage 3. The gospel was introduced to the gentiles (those in the uttermost parts of the earth). After Peter was shown by God that he should not regard the gentiles as “unclean”, he obeyed the heavenly vision and went to bring the gospel to the gentile Cornelius, and his relatives and friends. Earlier, Peter had declared to those Jews who were responsible for Christ’s death and aske them what they should do, to ““Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 2:38). But the Jews didn’t expect that this could happen to gentiles. Then…

24 And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends.
25 When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him.
26 But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.”
27 And as he talked with him, he went in and found many persons gathered.
28 And he said to them, “You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with or to visit anyone of another nation, but God has shown me that I should not call any person common or unclean.
29 So when I was sent for, I came without objection. I ask then why you sent for me.”
30 And Cornelius said, “Four days ago, about this hour, I was praying in my house at the ninth hour, and behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing
31 and said, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard and your alms have been remembered before God.
32 Send therefore to Joppa and ask for Simon who is called Peter. He is lodging in the house of Simon, a tanner, by the sea.’
33 So I sent for you at once, and you have been kind enough to come. Now therefore we are all here in the presence of God to hear all that you have been commanded by the Lord.”
34 ¶ So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality,
35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.
36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),
37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed:
38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree,
40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear,
41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead.
43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word.
45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared,
47 “Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

So when these gentiles received the gospel that Peter proclaimed, God gave them the Holy Spirit to demonstrate to the Jews that gentiles could become disciples of the Messiah also. They were not to be considered unholy just because they were gentiles; for God could make them holy. When the Jews saw that they had received the Holy Spirit, they recognized that they qualified for baptism. It took that miracle from God to convince them.

Perhaps I am not entirely following. To make sure I don’t misunderstand you, let me just ask a question. I think it would clear this up. Here goes:

Are you saying that if someone believed in Jesus Christ from word of mouth, never was told about baptism, lived a righteous life who overcame, would not have made the cut to reign with Christ?

Are you saying that someone cannot receive the Holy Spirit until they are baptized?

Just trying to nail down the implications of your position.

As for my position, anecdotally, I repented long before my baptism. There is no doubt the HS was present in my life from very early on. My baptism which is now almost a year ago (On Easter Sunday) was a great and glorious thing, but nothing inside me changed. I was till the same person searching after Jesus and my struggle (temptations didn’t disappear) with the flesh continued. I was being regenerated before the act of baptism because I repented of sinful habits long before the baptism… I am very skeptical, therefore based on my own personal experience that something magical happens when one is physically baptized. I wasn’t true for me and certainly doesn’t appear true for many others.

Those who reign with Christ are the overcomers, the fully mature sons of God. I cannot say more than the scriptures say, but I think that in order to become mature, one has to take the first step—that of repentance and regeneration, and that includes baptism. How God will deal with those who have never heard of baptism or even of Christ, I don’t fully know, but I believe He will work with them until they are submitted to Him. I don’t know whether or not baptism will take place post-mortem. I suspect not.

I won’t say “cannot” since God can override the norm, as He did with the first gentiles who believed as recorded in Acts. But from the scriptures I quoted, the norm is to receive the Holy Spirit at baptism.

My experience was much the same. I experienced that flow of love from God long before I was baptized. I didn’t think baptism was necessary. The pastor of one church I had been attending during my teen years urged me to become baptized. That church believed that baptism was but a public testimony to one’s spiritual position before God. I asked the pastor at the time, “Then would I be doing just as well to get baptized in such-in-such church?” That pastor answered, “Oh no. We believe this and they believe that, etc.” I couldn’t see that being baptized had any relevance to what this or that church believed. So I didn’t get baptized in either.

However, a few years later, in a different locality, God showed me that I was to be baptized. I fully expected to receive the Holy Spirit in a way I had never experience previously. However, it seemed to me that the pastor who baptized me wasn’t expecting anything. Furthermore, I discovered that I had been baptized INTO that church, according to the church’s teaching. I thought I had been baptized into Christ—and I still believe that I was.

A few questions:

1. What is the purpose of baptism?
2. Is “repenting of sinful habits” tantamount to regeneration?
3. If nothing inside you changed, how can you be certain that you underwent a true baptism?
4. How do you understand Jesus’ words as recorded in John 3:5?
   “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless one is generated out of water and spirit, he is not able to enter the Kingdom of God.”

1. A symbol.
2. Yes, I believe so. I am also not sure the word ‘regeneration’ in the sense we use it is even a biblical event.
3. Something inside me changed BEFORE baptism. That is the point. As for how can I be certain it is a true baptism? How can anyone be certain? People receive NDE’s and think they are of God. People experience many things and say it is of God. I don’t allow a funny feeling in my stomach determine whether something was real or not.
4. I understand these words as symbolic. Additionally, I understand that in that section of scripture, Jesus basically said the spirit goes where it will… Meaning, we cannot will it. We didn’t chose our first birth and I am starting to believe we cannot chose our second birth, not the initial stages of it anyway. God is the cause of both births.

Now, let me address something here. The idea that someone may have been baptized wrong or incorrectly comes from a lack of faith. Putting those doubts into peoples mind is actually cancerous and I’ll explain why here. All my life, I have been doubting whether I did it right. Did I repent good enough, did I say the right prayer, when I was baptized, did they not saying the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost properly… I was searching my entire life for an ‘experience’. But this experience I was searching for was merely an experience to make me into a sinless person. I was looking for an experience to take away temptations. I wanted an experience to make me obedient, without having to put work into it. I suspect that is what many Christian’s do when they seek experiences like I did.

Fast forward, all of these ‘making sure I did it right’ brings death, not life. It makes someone obsess over their own life, that they lose sight of everything else in their life, because they are so obsessed with making sure they prayed the right prayer, did the right rituals based on the Bible. Heck, Baptists argue HOW baptism’s take place. How is that faith? That isn’t faith, that is formula. It is all self-absorbed, selfishness.

I have heard people say they "felt God’ tell them something. But I have observed that these people are really, really gullible. Maybe it was real, I don’t know. But what does it matter whether something was real or not if they are not obeying Jesus Christ in EVERYTHING! If, Baptism, seals the deal, as you say, then have yourself reached full maturity? Do you no longer have any sinful motives, sinful deeds or any vices in your life? Have you arrived Paidion? It would seem to indicate so if you believe Baptism seals the deal. Now, even if you say it doesn’t seal the deal, but is a promise it will, does that mean everyone who is baptized (with a real one, whatever that means) will reach full maturity before they die? If not, does the whole thing seem a bit… arbitrary? It does to me.

Can you clarify? You said you expected to receive the Holy Spirit in a way that you never had. Did it happen as you expected? Did you ever think that maybe because you expected it, it became real? There is science behind self-fulfilling prophecy. Drugs addicts are the best at this type of behavior. They attribute their drug of choice to doing many things, an often they contradict one another. They claim the drug will both calm and rile them up, depending on how they are feeling at that moment and guess what? It does just that! A drug is either a stimulant or a relaxant, it cannot be both… So when people believe the same drugs acts as both in their life and it really does, we can observe it is all based on their expectations… This lines up with the wisdom of Jesus that says it is from WITHIN that evil comes, not from without. It is our mindset, not the object.

I have seen numerous people baptized in the Spirit before being baptized, as well as in the water while being baptized. I have seen the Spirit directly convert unbelievers and immediately fill them with the Spirit while sharing the word of God with them. The Spirit will fall on anyone who believes, from the instant they believe until anytime thereafter- sometimes with an abundance of manifestation, sometimes with no manifestation beyond an assurance of the steadfast love of God.

I was raised in a church that believed that baptism was necessary for salvation. If one was not baptized, one was not saved.
Long before I came to believe in UR, I came to believe the above is incorrect.

Baptism is a sacrament, a means of grace. It is an act of faith, a faith driven ritual, that helps us:

1. receive forgiveness of sins,
2. put the past behind us and start start a new life in Christ,
3. receive grace for deliverance from besetting sins and demonic oppression, and
4. be embraced as a member of local fellowships.

Baptism is an act of faith meant to help us further embrace an increasingly intimate relaionship with Jesus and with other believers. It is symbolic of and identification with the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus that we all participate in in Him. It is not necessary to get into heaven someday, but is grace-powered to help get heaven into us today!

It is symobolic of being born of the Spirit. Just as a baby is concieved of the father in his mother, is alive and then born when the mother’s water breaks, even so a child of God is concieved of the Father in the Spirit and is born into a new reality through the water of baptism. Water baptism is a powerful means of grace, a sacrament, an act of faith.

There is more to baptism, I’m sure, but the above is a good start, I think. It can be life-changing, radically and/or subtlely. Prayer, fasting, giving, communion are all acts of faith also, and powerful means of grace!

Thanks Sherman and Eagle.

Paidion,

Since PMing doesn’t work, I just wanted to say that I highly respect your opinion and am asking you genuine questions and that they should not be taken as accusatory, since I suspect they could be taken that way. None of my replies in this thread to you are sarcastic, but are genuine and inquisitive in nature.

Thanks,

Gabe

Baptismal Regeneration is the belief that one is Born of the Spirit through Water Baptism. I believe one is born of the Spirit when one repents and has faith in Jesus. I think this faith in Jesus is something that grows in our hearts upon hearing of the Good News of God’s love for us as revealed in the birth, life, death, and ressurection of Jesus. It is like a plant breaking through the ground after the seed was planted and germinated. In scripture most seem to have been water baptized relitively quickly after expressing their faith in Jesus.

Water baptism is different than being baptized in the Spirit. In the first, water is the medium in which one is immersed. In the other, the Spirit is the medium in which one is immersed. The purposes of being water baptized are noted in my previous post. The purpose of being baptised in the Spirit is empowerment for ministry. When one is born of the Spirit one recieves the Spirit, but when one is baptized in the Spirit one is overwhelmed in the presence of the Spirit. It’s similar to the difference between taking a drink of water and swimming in a river. The one gives you life, the other one moves you.

There are various manifestations of the baptism with the Spirit - prophecy, tongues, ecstatic worship, words of wisdom and knowledge, gifts of healing, miracles, etc. In Acts tongues and prophecy seem to be the most common initial manifestations of the Spirit in the examples of those who recieved the baptism with the Spirit. In Acts the baptism with the Spirit is also called, being filled with the Spirit, receiving the Spirit, the gift of the Spirit, the Spirit falling upon, the Spirit coming upon. I like the “Filled with the Spirit” phraseology because it reminds me of a sail boat’s sail being “filled” with wind. The air is always around us, but the wind is not always blowing. The air is around us all, and sometimes the wind is blowing, but only those who know how to lift their sails and be empowered by the wind can move by the wind. Those who don’t might sometimes feel the waves rocking and the wind blowing but are not empowered by the wind to do more than they could in their own strength. In Acts most seemed to receive the baptism with the Spirit after water baptism, but some received it before being water baptized. I don’t think it matters to God; He just wants us to be filled with His presence and power so that we can fulfill the ministry of reconciliation that he’s given us.

I agree that regeneration occurs at the instant of repentence and faith towards God. But baptism is more than a ritual according to Peter and Paul. There is a spiritual work, a benefit of worth beyond simple ritual that is effected on the believer in it.

There is a common error that occurs where people argue from two polar extremes when neither is completely representative of the scriptures.

One extreme is baptismal regeneration. The other is baptism as mere ritual.

The aggregate statement of the scriptures leads(imo) to neither of those conclusions, but its a hot button, very difficult to discuss scripturally because people typically put up their theology without reference to the scripture, or being responsible to ensure their theology meets the requirement of fulfilling all the statements of scripture about the topic.

Yes, water baptism is much more than a ritual. It is a sacrament, a life-filled powerful means of grace, a means of forgiveness and deliverance, a means of making a new start, a means of embracing and being embraced by the church. It is symbolic of being born of the Spirit and can help one realize this in her life. The Jews used the mikvah, baptism, as a means of spiritual cleansing and healing. It was not a one-time occurrence but was done on various occasions and for various reasons. The High Priest would take a mikvah bath before annually going into the Holy of Hollies. Women would do so monthly after their cycle. They did baptism differently than we do though. The person would go down into the water, preferably running water, in loose clothing and another person, the witness, would watch to see that the baptizee fully submerged. I don’t think the manner of baptism is important, but it is the condition of the heart. Someone doing it to just get the acceptance of others, well, will only get the acceptance of others. But when a person does it as an act of faith in and devotion to God the get the blessing, forgiveness, and healing of God. Shoot, occasionally when I’m taking a shower I pray, receiving the cleansing and forgiveness of God. Smith Wigglesworth knelt on the Maid of the Mist while watching the river rampage over Niagara Falls and cried out aloud to God, “Through me like that, God, through me!”

My own testimony: I was raised in a church that taught baptismal regeneration and was baptized when I was 9. I did not have a sense of a real relationship with God though. That was not something taught in my church. When I was 24 I was introduced to the concept of having a real relationship with God and even being empowered by the Spirit like believers in the 1st century church, the baptism with the Spirit. I studied and prayed concerning the baptism with the Spirit intensely for 3 months and experienced such, coming into a whole new dimension of relationship with God and spiritual empowerment. I was actually born or and baptized with the Spirit at the same time. I began experiencing a real living relationship with God and was empowered by the Spirit in various ways at various times. That was 29 years ago. It was/is wonderful.

Before that experience though, I had gotten hooked on porn. And after that I continued to struggle to not have perverted thoughts towards women. I was on my way to work one day, praying about this very issue and our Father spoke to me saying, “Well (dummy), be baptized.” He didn’t say “dummy”, but the “Well” carried that tone. It was as if it was something I should have known. But I hadn’t even thought of being re-baptized because I had been baptized as a child. So I replied, “Okay”.

The Pentecostal fellowship I was attending only performed water baptisms every 3 months or so, so it was a couple of months before I was able to be baptized. I continued to struggle to control my mind and not think perverted thoughts of women. But over the course of that few months I actually forgot the context of why I was being baptized and was doing so just as obedience. Well, the event came and went with no supernatural manifestations of any kind. A few days later though as I walked across a parking lot at work, a beautiful woman walked past me going the opposite direction. I admired her beauty like I would a rose, but did not have even one twisted thought about her. When I got to the other side of the parking lot, our Father said, “Did you see that?” I astutely replied, “What?” He said, “You didn’t lust after her!” And there was excitement and pleasure in His voice. I could tell He was smiling, happy for and with me. That made my day, and then I recalled the original context of when the Lord told me to be baptized. Through water baptism I had received forgiveness of sins, a cleansing of evil bondage, and I believe, deliverance from an evil spirit effecting my mind. I was a wonderful experiencing, something I am grateful for to this day. So water baptism is much more than just a ritual to me; it is a sacrament, an act of faith that is a means of grace, forgiveness, healing, and deliverance!

Communion, the Lord’s supper, the Eucharist is another sacrament, an act of faith that is a means of grace, forgiveness, healing, deliverance and union with Christ and the body of Christ. In the early church it was part of most, if not all, fellowship meals. Sadly, many Protestant Evangelical churches fail to regularly participate in this, relegating it to only monthly or quarterly. That’s one thing I greatly appreciate about our Catholic brothers, their valuing of the Eucharist, many of whom partake of it daily! I do wish they had open communion, and did not limit it to just Catholics.

Well, anyhow, thanks for reading my post.

Blessings,
Sherman

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost (KJV)

Is this passages also in the oldest manuscripts and if yes what did Jesus mean with this?
Do I have to be baptised in order to follow Him?
Why is baptism so important if it is?
What is its biblical theology?

If you read the book of Acts you can see that as soon as folks became believers they got baptized although interestingly in the name of Jesus. So if you can get baptized the biblical model is that you should ASAP. The thief on the cross didn’t but that was because he couldn’t.

I think if you read the thread you will get a pretty complete idea from several viewpoints

Really enjoyed that post Sherman