Tevye:
On the other hand…No…there is no other hand!

Dave,

Speaking of “fiddles”, is the parlor guitar finished yet?

Love the quote from Channing. He sums this topic up well for me.

Scott

Parlor guitar is almost there - I have for various reasons been thwarted from working on it for a few weeks. Thwarted!!
I’m finishing up the plans for the next one.

Are you going to post a picture of the guitar?

So I’m thankful for that, but I also find myself in a bad spot because when people start saying that I must keep the Sabbath, wear tzit tzit, observe the feasts and new moons, and the dietary laws, I feel like I might be in willful disobedience to God and under condemnation from Him. And that’s scary.

IMO it’s not obligatory to observe the Sabbath although you can if you feel moved to do it. Jesus not only healed on the Sabbath he “did good.” In Matthew 13 he said “therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” Doing good is lawful on any day. In John 5 he said he and his Father work every day (including the Sabbath.) He also said the Sabbath was made for man, not the other way around.
Lastly Paul in Col 2.16 said not to let any man judge you on Holidays and Sabbaths which is very different then the Law of Moses.

Relatedly, we should probably take a sabbath each week, but not necessarily the same day as everyone else, so that people can always be in a position to serve other people on their sabbath days. But to do so merely for personal gain in getting an edge on other people would be a sin. (There is a possibly legitimate extra-canonical saying from Jesus along this line, too.)

Catholic practice in this regard can work out nicely, as for religious purposes they regard the sabbath to start Saturday evening, allowing two possible ‘civic’ sabbaths, Saturday or Sunday: take the Mass Saturday night, Saturday is your Sabbath, take it Sunday morning, Sunday is your Sabbath.

Considering how much of a work-burden Church has become for people, it’s interesting that this concept has developed (in the US at least??) into what are effectively two Sabbaths: the original Saturday day-of-rest (when God Himself rests after His labors) and the new Sunday Sabbath when we celebrate the Resurrection.

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JUSTIN MARTYR ANSWERS THE SABBATIZERS

This translation is taken from volume 1 of The Ante-Nicene Fathers.

Justin Martyr was a Christian who lived in the first half of the second century. In a discussion with Trypho and a number of other Jews, he had the following to say (titles mine):

Why God Commanded the Jews to Observe the Sabbath
God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, on account of your unrighteousness, and that of your fathers…(Ch.21)

For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know the reason they were enjoined to you — namely on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts. (Ch.18)

God Is Ever the Same
But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circumcised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites… or that God has not wished each race of mankind to perform the same righteous actions, to admit which, seems ridiculous and absurd. (Ch24)

Before Moses the Righteous Did Not Sabbatize
Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned [Abel, Enoch, Noah], though they kept no sabbaths were pleasing to God. (Ch19)

Surely Such Observances Are Unnecessary Now
Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observances of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices before Moses, no more need is there of them now. (Ch23)

Nature Does Not Keep the Sabbath
Do you not see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? (Ch23)

God Does Not Keep the Sabbath
Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily circumcision with which God created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others. (Ch 29)

Fire would have been necessary to heat the water. This was expressly forbidden on the Sabbath day.

How to Keep the Sabbath Under the New Covenant
The new law requires you to keep perpetual Sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious! … The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances. If there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so, if any adulterer, let him repent. Then he has kept the sweet and true Sabbaths of God!

Justin doubtless got this teaching about the true Sabbath from Hebrews chapters 3 and 4.

So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his own labours as God did from His. (Hebrews 4:9,10 RSV)

Thanks for the Justin quotes, Paidion!

Have you read Michael L. Brown before, Neil? He’s a Jewish Christian author, and I like (some of) his work a lot (though he isn’t universalistic. Yet. )

Two relatively brief synopses of his Jewish/Christian work can be found here and here (on Amazon).

Those summarize and somewhat repackage his giant 10-year five-volume work on Jewish objections to Jesus starting here.

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Scripture informs us as to the significance of the Law of Moses for those who believe in Christ: *Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. *Galatians 3: 24-26. The Law of Moses teaches us that we are all unworthy to come into the presence of God without justification through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins. The Law of Moses, and all of Holy Scripture brings us to the knowledge of salvation through Christ.

The truth of what is written in Scripture is confirmed by a method of gematria which I have used and have explained in an attachment to my post on the thread "How should we treat and approach the Bible? In order to make the attachment to this post meaningful, one should read the attachment on that prior post. I realize that gematria is looked upon with great skepticism, especially with the unusual method which I have used, but the findings are quite remarkable.
The Law.pdf (225 KB)

twc

I also agree with Cindy’s take on it. To the multitude (all versions of Messianic, Hebrew roots, Reformed Covenant Theologians, not to mention just about every evangelical pastor on the planet, and your everyday Christians) who have developed ingenious methods of “cherry picking” from the Law of Moses, I have one thing to say. You have only two choices, take the whole enchilada or accept the fact that in Christ you have died to the Law and are now joined to another suitor, the Lord Jesus Christ. Didn’t Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would be removed from the Law until all was fulfilled? Didn’t James write, “Whoever keeps the Law but fails in one point is guilty of all of it”? James 2:10 . The law was the covenant that God made with the nation of Israel. It had different aspects moral, civil, ceremonial, but it must stand or fall as one document. Read Paul’s argument in 2 Cor. chapter 3 or the whole book of Galatians or Hebrews and then make your argument.

Wasn’t Jesus talking about the prophecies concerning Himself that are found in the OT books known as “the law”? He said that Moses wrote about Him.

Gentiles were never under the Mosaic law, period. That was a Jewish thing entirely. And when Paul speaks of the law, that’s what he’s talking about. So sayeth NT Wright and others, in any case.

That’s exactly right Dave.

Just for consistency though I’d love to get a handle on Wright’s response then to such reactive retorts as… “oh, so none of it applies to us and hasn’t for the past 2000yrs!?”

Are you saying you believe that the inspired portions of the law that pertained to Christ were “hidden” among the vain imaginings of this ancient people? I’m not accusing, only seeking clarification.

According to Jews, all Jews and Gentiles are to abide by the Noahide commandments. Which are:

1. Not to worship idols.
2. Not to curse God.
3. To establish courts of justice.
4. Not to commit murder.
5. Not to commit adultery, bestiality, or sexual immorality.
6. Not to steal.
7. Not to eat flesh torn from a living animal.

And of course Jews are bound by ~ 613 more from Moses.
The Noahide commandments seem pretty fair to me though.

I think in the LOM there are moral laws which are eternal and ritual laws which were for Israel. IMO the Sabbath is a ritual law even though it is part of the 10 Commandments and as Hebrews says our rest is in Christ not any particular day.

Yes, and yet many/most Christians willingly put themselves under the curse of the law to some extent, because of their ongoing misunderstanding of the true nature of God, and of the need to divide the Scriptures by the Spirit, and not the letter.

I would argue that legalism—trying to serve God in the flesh instead of by the Spirit—began in mankind after eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. So it is a bigger problem, a universal problem that has always reigned far beyond the eventual codified Law of Moses to the Israelites.

Legalism is very bewitching, and Paul tried to reason with the Galatian Christians (both Jews and gentiles) about it:

Galatians 3:1-3,10,13

1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified.

2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

3 Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the FLESH?

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.” [Deut. 27:26]

13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.” [Deut. 21:23]

(I believe legalism and its attendant curses are from the devil, not from our unchanging, gracious God of love.)

Right on, Dave. We are under no obligation to be under any aspect of the law, including the 10 commandments, especially the Sabbath.

Jesus Broke the Sabbath

John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

Justin Martyr’s Explanation of the Sabbath to the Jews in his "Dialogue With Trypho"

(Justin was a Christian who lived from (A.D.110 – 165)

Righteous Men of Old Kept No Sabbaths

… all those righteous men already mentioned [Abel, Enoch, Noah,] though they kept no Sabbaths, were pleasing to God; and after them Abraham with all his descendants until Moses… Chapter 19

…For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observance of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices, before Moses; no more need is there of them now,…Chapter 23

Nature Does Not Observe Sabbath Days

Do you see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths? Chapter 23

God Himself Does Not Observe the Sabbath Day

Think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others… Chapter 29

The True Israelites Are Those Who Come to God Through Christ

For the true spiritual Israel, and descendants of Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham (who in uncircumcision was approved of and blessed by God on account of his faith, and called the father of many nations), are we who have been led to God through this crucified Christ, as shall be demonstrated while we proceed. Chapter 11 (near the end)

We Are Now Required To Keep Sabbath Daily By Resting From Sin and Working Righteousness

The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure. Chapter 12 (at the end)