The Evangelical Universalist Forum

2nd Peter 3:9

This verse has a very real implication for me. How could we ever get the final state unless:

A) God intervenes at some period of time and says ‘enough’ which is unfair to the generation living at that time, since their days were numbered short by God and therefore wasn’t as patient.

B) Some sort of man made disaster stops us from reproducing and eventually the population dies off. Hence, God was patient with all of humanity in a more broad sense.

What is everyone else’s take on this?

Personally i think it’s on a totally individual basis…each person gets exactly as much time as they need. So i guess i don’t see this as one time in history for everyone, but rather a moment of restoration almost unique to each person.

I used to initially believe the above, but it doesn’t make sense to any longer. If God is not willing that any should perish and is said to be patient within the context, then this verse actually goes against universalism as we no doubt can see people who perish without repenting. Hence, perhaps God does have two wills. But, I don’t think this interpretation is valid any longer. Stay with me here…

If the Day of the Lord has not happened and some are grumbling that it is slow… Well, Peter addresses that. He says that God is not slow as some count slowness, but is patient with us willing we all come to repentance. He uses one day is a thousand and a thousand as one, etc… But, clearly, not all do come to repentance in this life. Many perish without having heard, many perish while being rebellious. Besides, the main problem I see with scripture interpretation (my opinion) is that we always think the Bible was written just for us personally. Rather than a corporate salvation, we keep looking for our own personal salvation. The hell with the rest of the people, right? That is inherently selfish.

Today the verse came to mind that “He who seeks to save his life will lose it” and I am almost wondering if Christ wasn’t referring to 99% of the Christian world that is obsessed with their own personal salvation, even at the expense of others. To hell with them! I want to make sure I get in! Traditionally Christianity, as I see it, breeds selfishness because it is all about “ME”. ME ME ME ME ME. Am I saved? Am I going to heaven? Am I going to perish? It focuses on me and causes me to seek to save my life by trying the religious system out. But Jesus said those who seek to save their life lose it and I definitely see how this is true regarding religion. In the process of securing our salvation, we will do anything. This is where I see the fruits of heaven/hell and the fruits do not appear to be good, because it creates a dog eat dog mentality.

I myself at guilty of the same thing I am speaking against above. The idea of salvation can really cause extremely selfish behavior. But back to the verse… I don’t see this on an individual level, since the Day of the Lord has not happened yet, because God is patient… Well people keep still producing, so I don’t see how God will ever be able to have his day, if he is patient? To further the point, waiting in this case is causing more harm than good. if God is willing we all repent, and is limited to this life time, we are really screwed and he should pull the plug now, since the vast majority of people die in a state of ignorance or rebellion. Thus, God being patient is, percentage wise, loosing ground.

Or, another possible meaning, perhaps “Day of the Lord” isn’t what we think it is… Maybe it already happened? This is a difficult concept for me convey, and I hope I am somewhat understandable here. But to recap: As long as we keep reproducing children, the Day of the Lord really cannot happen if God is truly waiting for all to come to repentance as what happens to those under 9 years old living at the time, did they come to repentance? I would really be interested in an in depth study of this verse OUTSIDE of the traditional interpretations.

Hi Gabe,

This IMO is key… thinking “OUTSIDE of the traditional interpretations."

As I understand it 2Pet 3:9 has none of these issues when considered through a fulfilled eschatological grid as in… what Peter wrote was specific to and for his own audience alone, aka Jesus’ “this generation”, period. Such repentance was NOT “from sin” but rather from not adhering to past prophetic words, e.g., Lk 13:3-5. IF they would change their minds [repentance] and “believe” such words they would be delivered [saved] from the soon coming distress when “the elements will melt with fervent heat” – the reference “elementsστοιχεῖα being indicative of the rudiments of the Law Gal 4:3, 9; Col 2:20], i.e., the foundations of their old covenant existence that was typified through the Temple whose very foundation ended in Ad70, not one stone left upon another.

Seen this way resolves so many issues.

I do think there has to be a “day of the Lord” as in some sort of consummation or birth. Paul talks about this in Romans 8 – how the whole creation groans together (including us Christ followers) in birth pangs until the present time, longing for the revelation of the sons of God (that is, the huios or mature offspring of the Father), and for the redemption of our bodies – how the creation will partake of the blessedness of these huios of God and will be set free from the bondage of corruption to which it was subjected in hope – so that the whole creation could reach a state of harmony and perfection, maturity, liberty, etc.

We see this theme of birth pangs, of a marriage celebration, of a general resurrection and judgment – all through scripture. When a woman is pregnant, it seems to her she will always be pregnant. The birth, though she may know it is imminent, may seem to be a thing that never will come. She has a general idea of a time frame (which we don’t really, for the birth of the resurrected world), but she doesn’t know exactly when it will come. In the Hebrew marriage, I’ve read that the situation was similar. The bridegroom would come to collect his bride when his father said the place he was preparing for his betrothed was completed. Neither the groom nor the bride would know specifically when this would happen – only that the waiting, the separate period, would typically last for about a year. The bride and her maidens must be ready at all times because the groom would come unannounced, typically at night, and take them to celebrate the marriage feast at his father’s house (or “insula” where the groom would have prepared the new suite for his bride and himself.)

Even physical death is usually like this. When my father was sick with his last illness, it was an indefinite thing. I knew it would take him, and soon, but as he languished day after day, it was hard to think of his death as a definite, imminent thing. And then one day he was gone. I think the day of the Lord is probably similar. We know from scripture that this world, in its present corruption, will not go on forever and ever – yet it seems that it will. It will end/transition when the time comes, and only the Father knows that time for certain.

Yes, there will doubtless be people who have yet to repent when that Day comes. I don’t think the final consummation can come though, until everyone DOES repent. Looking at the final chapters of Revelation (though it is symbolic, it is symbolic of SOMETHING, and probably many things), I see the Day of the Lord having come with its judgment and its celebration of the Marriage of the Lamb, and yet some left out in the dark, outside the Holy City. But then I see God becoming All in All (in Ephesians I think?) and every knee in heaven, on the earth, and under the earth confessing Jesus as Lord to the glory of the Father. So, some do seem to miss the festivities (as Jesus repeatedly warns His listeners), but are later drawn into the joyous Kingdom of God.

I have a kind of “wider vision” or at least an inkling of a suspicion of things to come though, and if it’s even passingly correct, I’m not sure how it fits into this idea of a final consummation. I really do see God continuing to develop the less conscious animals to a state of perfection and maturity too, and maybe even other life forms – maybe even the universe itself. It seems to me to fit. If God created US via evolution, why make that process end? Why stop at this universe (which perhaps isn’t even the first, or the only), since we know that God is infinite? If that’s the case, perhaps there will in time be many consummations, many celebrations, many ages. It’s all too vast for me to take in or make a systematic description of, but it seems right to me. I’m excited to see things closer one day, and to understand better things that now I only see as dim, misty shapes of shadowy possibilities.