70 AD- calling you Davo

Theology from a biblical approach. Topics posted should have a direct relationship to scripture.

Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:22 pm

Origen said:
That's interesting, Davo. Thanks for the explanation.

Pantelism is sort of new to me. I don't recall ever hearing of it before a year or two ago. Searching the internet in the past 24 hours, i'm surprised at how much info there is on the subject.


David is quite a scholar. The best. :D

You might want to look at this...http://www.presence.tv/integral-theology/

From my standpoint (please watch all 3 1/2 hours) this is an eye opener, as much as pantelism was... There are differences, but what I learned is that I personally need to search... and realize that most of us here on this forum are trying to wake up. :lol:
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby LLC » Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:24 pm

davo wrote:‘Resurrection’ was ALL ABOUT Israel coming up out of the “corruption” of the old covenant mode of existence, coming up out of the graves of bondage (covenant EXILE) into the “incorruptible” LIFE of God, i.e., the burgeoning NEW covenant age that was bursting forth in their day. We live beyond that time in the “new creation wherein righteousness dwells” 2Pet 3:13; 2Cor 5:17; they were coming into it, we have it… humanity HAS been reconciled!


Davo, If we are not following the ways of the One True God, we are not reconciled to God. Since the beginning of creation, there have been false beliefs and doctrines which still continue to be preached today. Throughout the Old Testament there were times when these false beliefs were more prevalent( times of darkness and bondage) and times of refreshing, when the people turned their hearts back to God and became prosperous. This seems to be a reoccurring process.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:56 pm

LLC wrote:
davo wrote:‘Resurrection’ was ALL ABOUT Israel coming up out of the “corruption” of the old covenant mode of existence, coming up out of the graves of bondage (covenant EXILE) into the “incorruptible” LIFE of God, i.e., the burgeoning NEW covenant age that was bursting forth in their day. We live beyond that time in the “new creation wherein righteousness dwells” 2Pet 3:13; 2Cor 5:17; they were coming into it, we have it… humanity HAS been reconciled!


Davo, If we are not following the ways of the One True God, we are not reconciled to God. Since the beginning of creation, there have been false beliefs and doctrines which still continue to be preached today. Throughout the Old Testament there were times when these false beliefs were more prevalent( times of darkness and bondage) and times of refreshing, when the people turned their hearts back to God and became prosperous. This seems to be a reoccurring process.



I think davo was saying that God did his part without us having to follow anything, and that it was Christ that did the atoning work of redeeming Israel, and thus the whole of humanity. Our following, is a by product of our 'understanding' of what God has done though Jesus.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Sat Oct 21, 2017 4:44 pm

LLC wrote:... Israel and the nation of Israel are two different things, Israel being the man who loved God and followed His word. When the New Testament speaks of redeeming Israel, I think that they are talking about any man who follows the true God. These were to be raised under a new name, that of Jesus.

LLC, I agree that there is a distinction between Israel the man, and the nation of Israel. Further, Romans 2:28 states, “For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.”

But we need to be wary of Replacement Theology. I believe the following verse (referenced in Luke 24:21) is referring to national Israel:

He himself will redeem Israel from all their sins. Psalm 130:8.

So I disagree with you that, “When the New Testament speaks of redeeming Israel, I think that they are talking about any man who follows the true God.”

Consider Romans 11:25-29 (NKJV):
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
 And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;

27 For this is My covenant with them,
 When I take away their sins.”

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For me, as a futurist, the above passage points to a future national repentance, at the time of the future, physical, second coming of Christ. (Yes, the first Christians were all Jews; and there are many Jewish converts today. But the majority of Jews are still unsaved.)

Again, as a futurist, I recognize this related prophecy to be as yet unfulfilled:
9 “It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced.
Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.  
11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.”

Zechariah 12:9-11.

Let me add that I believe God was, is, and will only ever be, nonviolent. Hence, I no longer buy into any bloodbaths supposedly perpetrated by God. As I have said elsewhere,
Recall the discussion of a property deed scroll in Jeremiah 32. That passage helps our understanding of how a kinsman could buy back land lost by the owner, by paying the purchase price. The sealed book could then be delivered to the original owner, or the heir. The heir could, at his convenience, break the seals, and, with the open scroll as his authority, take possession of the land—by force, if necessary.

So, as to the Second Coming, the final process of evicting Satan begins when the Lamb starts breaking those seals on the title deed (Rev. 6). But we have been warned in advance that Satan will not go quietly.

We are not to be passive or fatalistic about the devil. As my friend Richard Murray has said,
“…Nor does Satan's pervasive influence here mean that Jesus hasn't already totally defeated and defanged the devil and his evil empire per Colossians 2:15 and Ephesians 4:8-10. Satan's kingdom runs today entirely on the fumes of the Church's corporate neglect in endorsing and enforcing the victory of the cross.

As the book of Hebrews says, it is is ONLY our "neglect" (individual and/or corporate) which prevents us from experiencing the full benefits of our "so great a salvation" here on earth. Hebrews 2:3. Until the Church rises up and puts Satan under its foot here on earth as he's ALREADY been put under Jesus' foot in heaven, Satan's kingdom of darkness will hover here as the default setting of this earthly realm.”

Blessings.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:34 pm

LLC wrote:Davo, If we are not following the ways of the One True God, we are not reconciled to God.

The pantelist position understands that God unilaterally reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, where He God unilaterally forgave humanity’s sins… this is the most obvious and plain reading of 2Cor 5:19, i.e., it’s there in black and white. IOW… *divine reconciliation* is NOT predicated on *human response*.

‘Human response’ comes from the resultant “realisation” where one gets an inkling of the grace of God that established such wondrous reconciliation and accordingly expresses one’s heart-felt gratitude to God for this.

    Belief does NOT establish truth — truth however can establish belief! << read that again!
Again, a pantelist understanding views “the reconciliation” as the established work of God, period. However… coming into the *revelation OF reconciliation* expressed by a faith response brings one into the realm of “eternal life” in accord with Jesus’ specific definition where eternal life is a coming into the knowledge of God and Christ, as per Jn 17:3. You will note such ‘eternal life’ has EVERYTHING to do with THIS LIFE here and now. This is the life Jesus saves us to. What lies beyond is not an issue.

Paul gives a good distinction between God’s established reconciliation AND THEN the salvation (eternal life) faith releases one into…
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Christ’s death (crucifixion) wrought reconciliation for all, period; Christ’s life (resurrection) wrought salvation, i.e., eternal life to those grasping it. Salvation is about *purpose not position* it is about service to God in this life and NOT about getting to heaven in the next.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:40 pm

davo wrote:
LLC wrote:Davo, If we are not following the ways of the One True God, we are not reconciled to God.

The pantelist position understands that God unilaterally reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, where He God unilaterally forgave humanity’s sins…

Even as a futurist, I agree with this idea of unilateral reconciliation as an accomplished fact. However, here is a definition of pantelism offered by Theopedia.com:
Pantelism, is a recent term in Christian eschatology that refers to what some see as an extension of Full Preterism. This view maintains that the Scriptures both prophetically and redemptively, were entirely fulfilled in the person and work of Christ and consummated at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Accordingly, this consummation included not only Christ’s Second Coming, but the final judgment, the resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the reconciliation of all things. The unorthodox aspect of this view is that the reconciliation accomplished in 70 A.D was such that there no longer remains a lost condition in humanity and therefore no present need for conversion -- which reduces to a form of universalism where all are saved and one must simply realize what has been done for all humanity.

Based on my earlier comment today (above) I obviously disagree that the Second Coming of Christ occurred [invisibly? spiritually?] at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. For me, that idea is somewhat akin to,

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Watch Tower Society publications teach that Jesus Christ returned invisibly and began to rule in heaven as king in October 1914. They state that the beginning of Christ's heavenly rule would seem worse initially for mankind because it starts with the casting out of Satan from heaven to the earth, which according to Revelation 12, would bring a brief period of ‘woe’ to mankind.” From Wikipedia.

2. Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God/Joel’s Army teachings that Jesus comes "spiritually and invisibly" to His Church to "incarnate" the Corporate Body and reveal Himself to the world through miraculous signs and wonders performed by the "Manifest Sons of God." (See here, here, and here.)

Also,
davo wrote:Salvation is about *purpose not position* it is about service to God in this life and NOT about getting to heaven in the next.

That doesn’t sound quite right to me. Service to God now? Yes. Divine healing available now? Yes. Nevertheless, these mortal bodies are to be transformed:
-And not only this, but we too, who have the first fruits of the Spirit [a joyful indication of the blessings to come], even we groan inwardly, as we wait eagerly for [the sign of] our adoption as sons—the redemption and transformation of our body [at the resurrection]. Romans 8:23 AMP.

-For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 1 Corinthians 15:53.

And as evangelical universalist Charles H. Pridgeon said in his esteemed treatise differentiating time and eternity (Is Hell Eternal or Will God's Plan Fail? available here or here):
The Church needs to emphasize the fact that the full measure of rewards is not given till we get our glorified bodies; and also that the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, except in reference to the anti-Christ and false prophet, is not brought to our notice till the closing portion of the Millennium and that most are not cast into it for at least a thousand years after Christ's Second Coming.

Blessings.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:14 pm

Hermano wrote:However, here is a definition of pantelism offered by Theopedia.com:
Pantelism, is a recent term in Christian eschatology that refers to what some see as an extension of Full Preterism. This view maintains that the Scriptures both prophetically and redemptively, were entirely fulfilled in the person and work of Christ and consummated at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Accordingly, this consummation included not only Christ’s Second Coming, but the final judgment, the resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the reconciliation of all things. The unorthodox aspect of this view is that the reconciliation accomplished in 70 A.D was such that there no longer remains a lost condition in humanity and therefore no present need for conversion -- which reduces to a form of universalism where all are saved and one must simply realize what has been done for all humanity.

You’ll find the true, proper, unadulterated and full whole enchilada right HERE.

Hermano wrote:Based on my earlier comment today (above) I obviously disagree that the Second Coming of Christ occurred [invisibly? spiritually?] at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. For me, that idea is somewhat akin to,

1. Jehovah’s Witnesses: “Watch Tower Society publications teach that Jesus Christ returned invisibly and began to rule in heaven as king in October 1914. They state that the beginning of Christ's heavenly rule would seem worse initially for mankind because it starts with the casting out of Satan from heaven to the earth, which according to Revelation 12, would bring a brief period of ‘woe’ to mankind.” From Wikipedia.

2. Latter Rain/Manifest Sons of God/Joel’s Army teachings that Jesus comes "spiritually and invisibly" to His Church to "incarnate" the Corporate Body and reveal Himself to the world through miraculous signs and wonders performed by the "Manifest Sons of God."

This is more than a bit of a misnomer… I’m afraid aiming for ‘guilt by association’ when you don’t properly know a position’s stance only shows one to be ill-informed; these two positions are in fact both FUTURISTS positions, and as such have far more in common with your own futurism.

Hermano wrote:
davo wrote:Salvation is about *purpose not position* it is about service to God in this life and NOT about getting to heaven in the next.

That doesn’t sound quite right to me. Service to God now? Yes. Divine healing available now? Yes. Nevertheless, these mortal bodies are to be transformed:

HOW does the potential for transformation (regardless of the argument as to what that is said to be) negate the bible’s call to godly service in this life; like what’s your point of… “that doesn’t sound quite right to me”?
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:13 pm

davo wrote:...This is more than a bit of a misnomer… I’m afraid aiming for ‘guilt by association’ when you don’t properly know a position’s stance only shows one to be ill-informed; these two positions are in fact both FUTURISTS positions, and as such have far more in common with your own futurism.

In my most recent comment (a little above) I referenced the JW’s and the Latter Rain/Joel’s Army/Manifest Sons of God, because, like the supporters of pantelism, they share a belief that the Second Coming of Christ has already occurred, invisibly or spiritually (in the case of pantelism, circa AD70).

So, we are debating this issue of the Second Coming: you say it has already occurred; I contend it most certainly has not. I believe the Scriptures plainly indicate there should be no ambiguity or debate about the Second Coming of Christ:
“People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.” Luke 17:23-24.

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

Again, very conspicuous when it happens; no ambiguity:
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Revelation 1:7.

That contrition over the rejection of the “pierced” Messiah at his Second Coming was previously mentioned by Zechariah:
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Zechariah 12:8-11.

The idea that the Second Coming of Christ occurred at the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., does not comport with Zechariah stating that, at his coming, the Lord would [successfully] defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; that every eye would see him; or that the inhabitants of Jerusalem would mourn for him as one mourns for his only son.

At the destruction of Jerusalem by Titus, “Josephus claims that 1.1 million people were killed during the siege, of which a majority were Jewish, and that 97,000 were captured and enslaved.…” Wikipedia.

Again, I maintain that God is nonviolent, and that the prophets, through ignorance, sometimes conflated God with Satan in the events they were seeing prophetically. So, to say it was God who killed all those Jews in 70 A.D., because He was angry with them for rejecting His Son, is now reprehensible to me.

That reiterated, I am still a convinced futurist, and take the warning of the apostle John about the spirit of Antichrist seriously:
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 4:2-3 (KJV).

I agree with this viewpoint about John’s warning,
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary:

“I think the Greek present participle implies both the first and the second advent of Christ. He is often elsewhere called the Coming One (Greek), Mt 11:3; Heb 10:37. The denial of the reality of His manifestation in the flesh, at His first coming, and of His personal advent again, constitutes Antichrist.”

According to the late Professor Arthur E. Bloomfield, it is indispensable to understand that prophecy is addressed to those living when the prophecy is fulfilled. His assertion is certainly of relevance to the preterist/futurist debate. In All Things New: A Study of Revelation (1959), he clarifies,
Redemption involves the soul, the body, and the earth.

-And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.—Rom. 8:23

-And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.—Eph. 4:30

-When these things begin to come to pass, then look up and lift up your heads: for your redemption draweth nigh.—Luke 21:28

Jesus spoke of the Rapture as “your redemption.” Following the custom of the prophets, Jesus addressed His people at the time of the prophecy. “Your” does not refer to the four disciples to whom Jesus was talking but to the people involved in the prophecy. There is nothing unusual about this. It is a common prophetic device.

For instance, Jeremiah commands: “Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the Lord’s vengeance; he will render unto her a recompense.”—Jer. 51:6

This was spoken long before Babylon was destroyed; in fact, the whole prophetic picture is still future. It was not the people of Jeremiah’s day that were warned to flee Babylon. They were just about to be taken captive. It would be seventy years before any would be allowed to leave, and then Babylon would already have fallen into the hands of the Persians.

The people addressed are those living when the prophecy is fulfilled and who are directly involved. There will be a city which, in the last days, will be to our world what Babylon was to its world. It may well be on the same site and it could be called by the same name. Its great wealth will attract many people. Those are the ones the prophet warns. The prophecy is addressed to a specific people at a specific time in a specific place.

Paul also uses this method when he says, “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up.”—I Thess. 4:17. It does not follow that Paul expected the Rapture before he died; in fact, the context shows that Paul simply follows the prophetic principle of stating the prophecy in the words of those to whom it is spoken.

Jesus did the same thing when He said, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”—John 5:25.

These instances could be multiplied. It is an important principle of interpretation. Prophecy is often couched in the words of those to whom it is addressed or to whom it is directly spoken. The fact that God can do this is one of the marvels of prophecy. Still it is in keeping with the nature of God. Eternity is timeless. The time element is often lacking in prophecy. God speaks of future things as though they were already happening. “Babylon is fallen, fallen” is the way of predicting the future end of the prophetic Babylon. The recognition of this principle will aid materially in understanding all prophecy. “Your redemption” is not the redemption of Peter, James, John, and Andrew, but the redemption of those who will be living when these things begin to come to pass.

Thank you.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:07 pm

Hermano wrote:In my most recent comment (a little above) I referenced the JW’s and the Latter Rain/Joel’s Army/Manifest Sons of God, because, like the supporters of pantelism, they share a belief that the Second Coming of Christ has already occurred, invisibly or spiritually (in the case of pantelism, circa AD70).

Well it’s not a very good rationale… that’s like saying pantelists believe the resurrection is past… so did Hymenaeus and Philetus; QED pantelism is the Hymenian heresy, and yet such simplistic reasoning has no real understanding as the *the nature* of the resurrection Hymenaeus and Philetus had in mind.

Hermano wrote:So, we are debating this issue of the Second Coming: you say it has already occurred; I contend it most certainly has not. I believe the Scriptures plainly indicate there should be no ambiguity or debate about the Second Coming of Christ:
“People will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them. For the Son of Man in his day will be like the lightning, which flashes and lights up the sky from one end to the other.” Luke 17:23-24.

“Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.” 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3.

Jesus’… “Do not go running off after them” needs to be understood in its historical context. In THEIR day there were ALREADY false messiahs-type-figures doing their thing deceiving many (Acts 5:36-37, also Dositheos, Judas of Galilee, Theudas) — so Jesus’ prophetic warning ACTUALLY meant something to them, i.e., he wasn’t speaking blithely and pointlessly over their heads; they were his people and he cared about them.

Hermano wrote:Again, very conspicuous when it happens; no ambiguity:
Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen. Revelation 1:7.

That contrition over the rejection of the “pierced” Messiah at his Second Coming was previously mentioned by Zechariah:
In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.

And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. Zechariah 12:8-11.

The very text itself (Rev 1:7) militates against your futurism… “tribes of the land” i.e., none other than “Israel”. And as to Zechariah… yet another demonstration of futurist convenience. There is little value in appealing to Zechariah given your stated position of… “I maintain that God is nonviolent” WHEN right in the middle of that very passage GOD SAYS… “And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.” You cannot with any consistency have it both ways.

Hermano wrote:The idea that the Second Coming of Christ occurred at the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., does not comport with Zechariah stating that, at his coming, the Lord would [successfully] defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; that every eye would see him; or that the inhabitants of Jerusalem would mourn for him as one mourns for his only son.

It only doesn’t “comport” for you because you don’t understand it. Jesus was to… “come in the glory of the Father”. Yahweh’s glory was awesome and fearful and whenever He came in judgement the literality of the event was understood by the means (usually another nation) whereby this occurred…
Isa 13:9-10 Behold, the day of the Lord comes, cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate; and He will destroy its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations will not give their light; the sun will be darkened in its going forth, and the moon will not cause its light to shine.

It’s the same apocalyptic language of Jesus’ mini-apocalypse of the gospels… cosmic heavenly language describing temporal earthly events that held great spiritual significance. This was the way Yahweh “came” in OT judgement; the events of AD70 reflect the same, and those who trusted in the Lord were duly “saved” (Mt 24:13).
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby LLC » Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:08 am

davo wrote:The pantelist position understands that God unilaterally reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, where He God unilaterally forgave humanity’s sins… this is the most obvious and plain reading of 2Cor 5:19, i.e., it’s there in black and white. IOW… *divine reconciliation* is NOT predicated on *human response*.


Davo, from what I understand God is omnipresent. He never left.So it is you, yourself that needs to come to the to the truth that is already there.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:34 pm

LLC wrote:
davo wrote:The pantelist position understands that God unilaterally reconciled the world to Himself through Christ, where He God unilaterally forgave humanity’s sins… this is the most obvious and plain reading of 2Cor 5:19, i.e., it’s there in black and white. IOW… *divine reconciliation* is NOT predicated on *human response*.


Davo, from what I understand God is omnipresent. He never left.So it is you, yourself that needs to come to the to the truth that is already there.

LLC… I’m not sure where or how you’ve read that God “left”? That there was a break or hindrance in man’s “relationship” with God is a given, at least in biblical story of beginnings, and how that was remedied IS the biblical story of redemption and ultimately reconciliation. What was fractured by the first Adam was restored by the last Adam.

Again… *human response* doesn’t make reconciliation real, rather, *human response* taps into that pre-existing and established reality.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:23 pm

Noah’s taking God's warning seriously saved him, his family, and the whole human race.

I believe the worldwide Genesis Flood literally occurred, and produced a geological record showing catastrophe. Massive, worldwide coal, oil, and natural gas deposits are carbon-based byproducts of compressed and decaying organic matter.

It is a known fact that the poles were once warm, even tropical, and that they suddenly became cold, and flooded with water at the same time.

As to the argument that the Flood was a local event, there are sedimentary (water-laid) layers all over the earth, and those sediments contain the buried remains of billions of creatures. The fossilization of living things is evidence that they were buried rapidly, not slowly, since they did not simply decompose.

Layers of sedimentation from the floodwaters have been erroneously labeled as geological ages separated by vast quantities of time. There is a spiritual aspect to this scientific misinterpretation.

Peter acknowledges that the Flood was a literal event:
“[God] did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;” 2 Peter 2:5.

(However, as you know, I believe Peter was incorrect in not assigning responsibility for this violence to Satan. However I don’t throw out everything Peter says because of this disagreement, any more than I throw out futurism because I now recognize God is nonviolent.)

Peter later associates unbelief about the literal, physical worldwide Flood with unbelief about the literal, physical Second Coming of Christ:
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2 Peter 3:3-6.

And we observe that in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus links the conditions before the Flood of Noah with the conditions characterizing the earth at the time of the coming [first] Rapture:
37 For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. 38 For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
42 “Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Matthew 24:37-44.

There is nothing wrong with eating and drinking, or in marrying and giving in marriage. The point is the people were so carried away with the pleasures of the world that they were indifferent to Noah’s prophetic warnings. God always tries to warn people of Satan’s schemes, and to provide a way of escape.

In distinction to other futurists, I do NOT believe the Rapture is imminent.

Perhaps a fourth of the Bible is prophecy, and I would argue that the bulk of that must yet be fulfilled during a short period of time in the relatively near future, just a “generation” in length (Mt. 24:34).

Regarding the sign of the fig tree, I believe the tree will begin to leaf when the Antichrist comes on the world stage. Prior to the Pre-Trib Rapture, some global crisis will come, and be resolved militarily by the Antichrist; his uprooting three horns signifies defeating three countries:
"While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully.” Daniel 7:8 (NIV)

Again, please allow me to quote Professor Bloomfield, from Signs Of His Coming: A Study Of The Olivet Discourse (1962):
The first signs will be the rise of a host of false Christ’s and a time of terror caused by threats of war. These false Christs will preach that the time draweth near. Preaching the second coming of Christ will be very common because of the things that are happening. A great number of sensational prophecies will be filled. But the end is not yet.

Then the world will settle back into its former indifference and even skepticism with the taunt, “Where is the promise of His coming?” He did not come when they all thought he would, when everybody was thinking about it. Now it seems that all things are continuing as they always have, and the greater part of the church will dismiss the subject from its mind and teaching, and set about its supposed task of making the world a better place in which to live. It is when they think not, that the Son of man cometh.”

In addition to evangelism, and acts of charity, the church needs to be prayerfully reconsidering the prophetic Scriptures.

I would further argue that today we need to be earnestly pursuing the Gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:31), for example, the gift of the discerning of spirits (1 Cor. 12:10).

Blessings.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:13 pm

Hermano wrote:Peter acknowledges that the Flood was a literal event:
“[God] did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;” 2 Peter 2:5.

That Noah’s flood was literal is uncontested… but nothing you said prior to this necessitates a single global flood. All such things were possible by multiple regional deluges. Not only that but the planet is predominately covered with water and ancient geological activities can well explain and so produced the same.

Hermano wrote: (However, as you know, I believe Peter was incorrect in not assigning responsibility for this violence to Satan.

This is where your position forces you to become creative and imaginative in introducing to the text what simply IS NOT THERE, period. That you choose not to believe the Apostle Peter, and Moses’ account (Gen 6:6-7) is fine, but changing the text by saying other than what Peter said is disingenuous at best and dishonest (IMO) at worst.

Jesus had some very stern words about assigning or attributing the work of God to being the work of Satan… Mk 3:22, 28-30 et al; which is pretty much an insult to the Spirit of grace, as per Heb 10:29 and maybe in the ballpark of the likes of Rev 22:18-19. :o

Hermano wrote:Peter later associates unbelief about the literal, physical worldwide Flood with unbelief about the literal, physical Second Coming of Christ:
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation.” 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water.

2 Peter 3:3-6.

Well this is interesting Hermano… WHERE does Peter actually speak of this supposed… “unbelief about the literal, physical worldwide Flood:?:
Yep some were indeed mocking the apparent lack of Christ’s parousia AND YET THAT’S the very same thing you’re doing — you likewise scoff, saying it hasn’t happened — hello pot this is kettle!
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby LLC » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:53 pm

davo wrote:That there was a break or hindrance in man’s “relationship” with God is a given, at least in biblical story of beginnings, and how that was remedied IS the biblical story of redemption and ultimately reconciliation. What was fractured by the first Adam was restored by the last Adam.

Davo, I'm clueless :? God is unable to establish a relationship with man? Obviously God can and did establish relationships with men. The Old Testament gives plenty of examples of people who walked with God and obeyed his voice.

davo wrote:However… coming into the *revelation OF reconciliation* expressed by a faith response brings one into the realm of “eternal life” in accord with Jesus’ specific definition where eternal life is a coming into the knowledge of God and Christ, as per Jn 17:3. You will note such ‘eternal life’ has EVERYTHING to do with THIS LIFE here and now.


There were also men in the Old Testament who walked in faith and had the knowledge and wisdom of God.

davo wrote: Salvation is about *purpose not position* it is about service to God in this life and NOT about getting to heaven in the next.


Again, there were many servants of God in the days of old.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:37 pm

LLC… none of my quotes you provided above were found wanting by any of your comments that followed. :shock:
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby LLC » Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:51 am

Davo, Maybe I'm just not understanding where you are coming from because I don't think God's word is progressive. Maybe I'm wrong but, as Genesis 8:22 says "while the earth remains, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and winter and summer, and day and night shall not cease. There will be times that we rise and times that we fall, when places that were once fertile become wastelands and from wastelands springs of water will flow forth. We know the future in a way because history repeats itself.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby qaz » Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:10 am

Davo, if humanity was reconciled to God at Calvary, why did God punish Israel in 70? That is, why punish people He was reconciled with?
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:24 am

qaz wrote:Davo, if humanity was reconciled to God at Calvary, why did God punish Israel in 70?

That’s a slightly wrong question but given most here come from a futurist background a fair question. I could ask my own wrong or rhetorical question following the same reasoning… if humanity has been forgiven (or at least believers in Christ) why do those who believe still die, or need to die?

But to get to the nub of your question… what was done away i.e., in the AD70 parousia, was the old covenant mode of law existence that had served its purpose and reached its use-by-date. Jesus was Israel’s Prophet and through him God was actually pleading with and giving warning to His people Israel of the impending political and national disaster that was looming on their generational horizon (Mt 24:34).

It wasn’t God’s “will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance” (2Pet3:9) MEANING… if Israel would but follow Jesus’ “words of life” they would escape the eschatological melee and mayhem that was coming. Paul was on a similar page…
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.

Those in Israel who refused to listen choosing instead to cling to the ship went down with it… not knowing IN THIS LIFE the forgiveness that was theirs, not realising or grasping the reconciliation wrought through the Cross.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby qaz » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:59 am

Davo, if reconciliation would not save Israel from punishment in 70, what makes you think it will save people from postmortem punishment?
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:07 am

davo wrote:Well this is interesting Hermano… WHERE does Peter actually speak of this supposed… “unbelief about the literal, physical worldwide Flood:?:

Oops, I picked the weakest translation of the verse (NASB) with which to make my point!

My point being that rejection of the literal, physical WORLDWIDE flood…
19 The waters prevailed so greatly and were so mighty and overwhelming on the earth, so that all the high mountains everywhere under the heavens were covered.20 [In fact] the waters became fifteen cubits higher [than the highest ground], and the mountains were covered. Genesis 7:19-20 (AMP).

…is spiritually linked by Peter to the willful rejection of the literal (and, as per 1 Jn. 4:2-3, in the flesh) Second Coming of Christ:
3 First of all, know [without any doubt] that mockers will come in the last days with their mocking, following after their own human desires 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming [what has become of it]? For ever since the fathers fell asleep [in death], all things have continued [exactly] as they did from the beginning of creation.” 5 For they willingly forget [the fact] that the heavens existed long ago by the word of God, and the earth was formed out of water and by water,6 through which the world at that time was destroyed by being flooded with water. 2 Peter 3:3-6 (AMP).

It has been argued that the mountains at the time of the worldwide flood of Genesis were not as tall as today—because today’s mountains could have been produced, or heightened, when, during that catastrophe, the crustal plates collided, and the compressional deformation crumpled the rock in the collision zone to produce new mountain ranges, and taller mountains.

But biblically, the various references unambiguously indicate the flood of Noah covered the entire world, and killed every single person and animal that was not inside that ark.

My larger concern is about those who teach against the future, physical return of Christ, because,

1. The hope of his appearance purifies us (1 John 3:2-3), and
2. Teaching that Jesus has already returned invisibly and spiritually (not physically and visibly) leaves the hearers unprepared to correctly interpret the coming prophetic signs.

Blessings.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby DaveB » Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:12 am

My understanding is that 'under the heavens' in this context means literally 'from horizon to horizon'. Their concept of the shape of the Earth was incomplete.
Do I care one way or the other? Not really.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:20 am

I came across a very interesting article:


Let me just quote a couple of highlights:

...preterism emerges from conservative, largely Calvinistic, Protestant circles.


Now that I didn't know :!: :D

The thesis of this paper is simple -- Matthew 24 has only been interpreted in a preterist manner by means of various spurious synoptic arguments. If Matthew 24 can be shown to contain references to two historical events -- the siege of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 and the consummation of history at a future time, then those who have begun their trip down the road to preterism based upon this text should feel compelled to re-examine their destination


I have to read this later, and see how solid - the author's position is. ;)

Maybe later, I'll look into this article:


Just a note for Davo. It's good to see, what the competition is up to. :lol:

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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:45 pm

DaveB wrote:My understanding is that 'under the heavens' in this context means literally 'from horizon to horizon'. Their concept of the shape of the Earth was incomplete.
Do I care one way or the other? Not really.

Ay, Dave! ¿Que es eso?! Consider similar sedimentation layers around the planet. Consider fossilized plants and animals, around the planet.

Some earlier material indicating the worldwide Flood of Genesis was not from God, but that it did literally occur:

Hermano wrote:Richard Murray has an essay concerning the Genesis Flood, as it relates to the TRUE nature of God, entitled "Did God Drown All The Children In The World With A Killer Flood? Or Did Satan?", which is very enlightening. As Murray points out in that essay:
Some may say that 2 Peter 2:4-10 suggests that the New Testament confirms that God brought the flood of Noah on the world of the ungodly. However, in consulting two different interlinear Bibles, one by Paul McReynolds and the other by Jay P. Green, the passage is found to literally say that "the flood the world of irreverent ones having brought on." In other words, this passage says that the flood was brought on by the sowing of wicked men. Men continually sowed the sin, thereby progressively quenching away and constricting down God's protective Spirit….Satan ultimately brought the full harvest of destruction, but God continued to protect righteous Noah.

Finally, as to the possible mechanical dynamics of the Flood, you may find of interest the work of Professor Walt Brown. He received a Ph.D. in mechanical engineering from MIT, where he was a National Science Foundation Fellow. Please watch this five minute overview of Brown's Hydroplate Theory, from 1986. (Regarding Satan's possible role as a master geologist and murderer, especially note what Brown says at the 2 minute point: "Failure in the crust began with a microscopic crack.”)

Blessings.


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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby DaveB » Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:47 pm

Hermano - yessir, I have read both sides of this issue. Scientists who differ, etc. I'm agnostic about it.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby LLC » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:07 pm

davo wrote:But to get to the nub of your question… what was done away i.e., in the AD70 parousia, was the old covenant mode of law existence that had served its purpose and reached its use-by-date. Jesus was Israel’s Prophet and through him God was actually pleading with and giving warning to His people Israel of the impending political and national disaster that was looming on their generational horizon (Mt 24:34).


I get this. However, the old covenant mode of law existence was of their own making, not God's as it explains in Galatians 4:21-31 and Colossians 2:20-23 "Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why as though living in the world , do you subject yourselves to regulations, Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle, which all concern things which perish with the using, ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENTS AND DOCTRINES OF MEN? These indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh."

davo wrote:Those in Israel who refused to listen choosing instead to cling to the ship went down with it… not knowing IN THIS LIFE the forgiveness that was theirs, not realising or grasping the reconciliation wrought through the Cross.


Maybe many did not know that forgiveness was theirs because they were raised under false beliefs. However, God pleaded with these people many times in the past, through the prophets, to put away such things and return to the faith and the covenant of their fathers Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob,( the foundation upon which Israel was built), and they would be forgiven. But many refused. This is what finally led to their total destruction and annihilation(the lake of fire).

I just don't see how this has anything to do with the reconciliation of humanity. As I mentioned before, many still preach and follow false doctrines, as they did in the past, even though the fall of Israel is the proof that God's way of life is the truth. Until one comes to the Jesus way, he/she is not reconciled to God, and destruction still occurs.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:57 pm

qaz wrote:Davo, if reconciliation would not save Israel from punishment in 70, what makes you think it will save people from postmortem punishment?

qaz… you seem to project an extremely punitive mindset. Your question is loaded in that it assumes postmortem punishment — without thinking, many a prêterist would simply and readily agree, again assuming ‘the lake of fire’ is merely replacing ‘hades’ — Hell MkI being replaced by Hell MkII. Pantelism is more prêteristically consistent viewing ‘the lake of fire’ as a past historical event NOT a future ethereal process, much like the clearing-pond position many a universalist seems to adopt. As I’ve noted before, pantelism understands John’s “lake of fire” and Jesus’ “gehenna” to and one and the same, i.e., prophetic descriptions of the fiery demise of the old covenant world (Mt 24:3).

To say “reconciliation would not save Israel from punishment” is to not understand Israel’s back-story which is full of comparative examples.
All Israel was redeemed (saved) out of bondage (sin) by the grace of God with NO reference to their good works or faith… the WHOLE nation, the good, the bad and the ugly were ALL FULLY redeemed; this was the unilateral work of God. However, only those faithful went on into experience the benefits of said redemption IN THIS LIFE, i.e., the Land of Promise = blessedness and peace.

If you know the story… a whole generation perished, that is, suffered the temporal consequence of their misdeeds YET were FULLY redeemed nonetheless. You’ll notice I used the word “temporal” NOT “temporary” — the consequences suffered were dire BUT relative to THIS LIFE. Thus actions have consequences and especially so for those who were chosen as Yahweh’s representatives to the world — hence the national crisis of AD66-70 that Jesus, Paul and Co. gave warning to. To whom much was given much was expected.

What you seem uncertain about AD70 in this mix. All that was pertinent and key to the old covenant world, i.e., the Law, the Temple, the Priesthood, the Sacrifices, the City, ALL in finality came to naught in the conflagration of those days — this was as I said earlier, none other than Jesus’ “gehenna” and John’s “lake of fire”. Israel *the people* were redeemed, and yet those who chose to ignore Jesus’ prophetic warnings who clung to that which “is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away” (Heb 8:13) would pay dearly with their lives. Those responding in faith avoided this doom and were subsequently “saved” (Mt 24:13).

Just because a near whole generation perished does NOT mean they weren’t redeemed — they were! Consider these texts from Israel’s past story…
Isa 44:22 I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, and like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”

So, with regards to Israel when it came to “remedial justice” under the OC we find the following…
Psa 99:8 O LORD our God; You were to them God-Who-Forgives, THOUGH You took vengeance on their deeds.

Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, YET He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.

So it was… there were times of punishment involving the outworking of temporal consequences for temporal actions, i.e., their actions had real time consequences in this life where Israel’s temporal pain was the fruit of their trespass; thus their judgment.
Isa 54:8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

Isa 60:10b For in My wrath I struck you, but in My favor I have had mercy on you.

Jer 10:24 O LORD, correct me, but with justice; not in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.

These last two verses above show that the TRUE nature, goal and resolve of divine reconciliatory justice is always RESTORATIVE and NOT carte blanche for-the-sake-of-it wrath. God’s “justice” was met fully in Christ at Calvary, met fully in LOVE once for all. That many perished or were carried off into exile was the net effect of rejecting their Prophet/Messiah who DID forewarn these things, giving them opportunity to turn and be saved… as always there was a choice involved. Their demise in no way lessened the reality and efficaciousness of Christ’s bearing of Israel’s sin… He did that for ALL and those that grasped it benefited *in this life* accordingly.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby LLC » Tue Oct 24, 2017 10:07 pm

As an added note, I believe that when Israel was destroyed, it began again in the faith of Abraham. This is what the Trinity refers to, the Father(Abraham), the Son( those of the same faith being spiritual sons) and the Holy Spirit(God), as it says in Romans4:16 "Abraham is the father of all who believe" and as God promised him in the Old Testament, "I shall make your name great."
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:11 am

Hermano wrote:My point being that rejection of the literal, physical WORLDWIDE flood…

…is spiritually linked by Peter to the willful rejection of the literal (and, as per 1 Jn. 4:2-3, in the flesh) Second Coming of Christ:

Not so! The only ‘spiritual link’ being drawn here is the one you’re fabricating. Peter’s admonishment was that the mockers were NOT taking into account, that is, “they willingly forget” the fact that just like the flood that took many away THAT exact prophetic point was on the verge of occurring in their day with Christ’s parousia!

I might just add… *pantelism* doesn’t have any official flood position; what I’ve shared are my own thoughts — pantelism is about ‘eschatology’ not ‘archonology’ i.e., last things not first things.

And as for…
Hermano wrote:2. Teaching that Jesus has already returned invisibly and spiritually (not physically and visibly) leaves the hearers unprepared to correctly interpret the coming prophetic signs.

There ARE NO “signs” up for spurious interpretation BECAUSE like the Cross “it is finished” — we now live in the blessed results thereof, i.e., reconciliation — that message will always be relevant.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:41 am

LLC wrote:
davo wrote:But to get to the nub of your question… what was done away i.e., in the AD70 parousia, was the old covenant mode of law existence that had served its purpose and reached its use-by-date. Jesus was Israel’s Prophet and through him God was actually pleading with and giving warning to His people Israel of the impending political and national disaster that was looming on their generational horizon (Mt 24:34).


I get this. However, the old covenant mode of law existence was of their own making, not God's as it explains in Galatians 4:21-31…

Actually NO, I don’t think you are getting it. The OC encapsulated in the Law was not Israel’s doing but God’s, but by Israel’s hand the law was weakened (Rom 8:3) through disobedience and so its demise ensured; not due to the law AND commandment being bad (Rom 7:12) but that it could never bring righteousness. The TWO covenants symbolised in Sarah/Isaac and Hagar/Ishmael were of GOD, not man… how you can deny this staggers me. One however ultimately wrought death/condemnation (2Cor 3:7, 9) by the nature of it being law, and thus their faithless inability to live up to it; but the other breathed LIFE — that’s the contrast.

LLC wrote:I just don't see how this has anything to do with the reconciliation of humanity.

I accept your inability to see this, that is plain, but for sake of making it plain to others let me explain. Pantelism answers this way…

Of all peoples, God chose innocuous and insignificant Israel to be His servant priests and the means whereby He would bless the world. Through many sins Israel abrogated her calling and came under severe judgement… from this she needed redeeming — ultimately this occurred through Christ. Israel needed redeeming to fulfil her mission to be the means of divine blessing to the world — again this was ultimately fulfilled through Jesus and his Body of ‘firstfruit saints’. With Israel redeemed reconciliation could then flow unhindered to the world beyond… God’s blessing to all. Paul writes of it this way…
Rom 11:12, 15 Now if their (Israel's) fall is riches for the world (humanity), and their (Israel's) failure riches for the Gentiles (firstfruit saints Acts 13:48; 15:14, 17), how much more their (Israel's) fullness! … For if their (Israel) being cast away (by God) is the reconciling of the world (humanity), what will their (Israel's) acceptance (by God) be but life (redemptive resurrection) from the dead?

    Thus did Israel’s redemption reconcile the world — to quote somebody really important… “it is finished!
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby qaz » Wed Oct 25, 2017 5:50 am

Davo, what do you think it means to be reconciled? I'm having a hard time seeing how Israel was reconciled to God while it was being punished in 70.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:35 am

“Israel” per sé wasn’t being “punished”. The old covenant which had been the life (though it came to be the spiritual death) of Israel was done… *the old covenant Mosaic world* of law-righteousness and all that symbolised it, was coming down and coming to naught. The nation had been redeemed at Calvary, and so all vestiges of the old régime had to go — unfortunately anyone ignoring the warnings given paid dearly.

Humanity had sat in the darkness of ignorance as to its Creator (Acts 17:27-28) but through the gospel (Israel’s redemption) the light of grace shone to the point where Gentiles could see their inclusion into this grace — that’s the wider reconciliation that flowed from Israel’s redemption, as per Romans 11 above.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Wed Oct 25, 2017 7:42 am

According to Davo’s recommended web site on pantelism, the Cross alone was NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption:
Redemption was fulfilled through the prophesied AD30–70 Cross–Parousia event.”

So, the idea is that the blood of Jesus, provided by being killed by an angry God, PLUS the blood of all the Jews in Jerusalem, killed by an angry Jesus at his Second Coming in 70 AD, were BOTH necessary for mankind’s full redemption.

But please consider the "Christus Victor" theory of the atonement, which proposes that,
“Adam and Eve made humanity subject to the Devil during the Fall, and that God, in order to redeem humanity, sent Christ as a ‘ransom’ or ‘bait’ so that the Devil, not knowing Christ couldn't die permanently, would kill him, and thus lose all right to humanity following the Resurrection.” (Wikipedia)

So, rather than an offended God killing Jesus at the cross (through Roman soldiers), plus a disrespected Jesus killing all the Jews in Jerusalem (and destroying their law and their temple, through Roman soldiers), in order to redeem mankind; in actuality, the Trinity is nonviolent, and would never kill anyone; rather, Satan killed Jesus, a willing sacrifice, as per Christus Victor.

Further, in harmony with Christus Victor, consider that Jesus, our kinsman-redeemer, has graciously paid the debt price of this land himself. As per the discussion in Jeremiah 32, a kinsman could buy back land lost by the owner to an outside party, by himself paying the purchase price. The sealed book could then be delivered to the original owner, or to the heir. The heir could, at his convenience, break the seals, and, with the open scroll as his authority, take possession of the land—by force, if necessary.
Hermano wrote:“So, as to the Second Coming, the final process of evicting Satan begins when the Lamb starts breaking those seals on the title deed (Rev. 6). But we have been warned in advance that Satan will not go quietly.”

As with all theological debates, the position we choose on any given issue is based on our belief about the true nature of God. I can now honestly say that, “God is good, all the time.” That He is exclusively about abundant life and love. And that love would never kill people, or torture them, or curse them. I encourage you to follow your heart about this “too good to be true” viewpoint, and ...let your head catch up later.

Shalom.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby qaz » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:14 am

davo wrote:“Israel” per sé wasn’t being “punished”. The old covenant which had been the life (though it came to be the spiritual death) of Israel was done… *the old covenant Mosaic world* of law-righteousness and all that symbolised it, was coming down and coming to naught. The nation had been redeemed at Calvary, and so all vestiges of the old régime had to go — unfortunately anyone ignoring the warnings given paid dearly.

Humanity had sat in the darkness of ignorance as to its Creator (Acts 17:27-28) but through the gospel (Israel’s redemption) the light of grace shone to the point where Gentiles could see their inclusion into this grace — that’s the wider reconciliation that flowed from Israel’s redemption, as per Romans 11 above.


In the sheep and the goats parable Jesus says "eternal punishment".
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:28 am

qaz wrote:In the sheep and the goats parable Jesus says "eternal punishment".


Let me share this about "eternal" "punishment":

Hermano wrote:~Is hell a never-ending torture chamber, as commonly believed, or limited in time, and for corrective purposes? Recall: “Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:8). Reconsider Matthew 25:46, regarding the fate of the damned and of the saved. Jesus says,

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.”

1. But the Greek word translated “eternal” (or “everlasting”) is aionios, and does NOT in fact mean "unending or everlasting in quantity of time." Rather, aionios speaks to an "indeterminate age set by God alone.” This adjective is used to describe something within time, not outside time (that is, in eternity). Aionios is the adjective form of the Greek word aion, where we get our English word “eon” (age). Young’s Literal Translation for aionios is always “age-during.”

2. And the Greek word translated in this verse as “punishment” is kolasis, a term used to describe the pruning back of trees, to allow fuller and healthier growth. It is also used to describe corrective punishment, “inflicted in the interest of the sufferer.” (For vindictive, vengeful punishment, “inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction,” the word timoria is used.)

Note: Many erroneously believe that if you deny that the punishment of this verse lasts forever, then you must also deny that the "eternal" life of the saved is unending. But that doesn't follow, because this verse is dealing with life, or punishment, WITHIN TIME, during the final eon. However, eternity is outside time.

In 1 Cor. 15:20-28, we discover where time will come to its end, and eternity will begin. When the last person has repented in the Lake of Fire, the purpose of the Lake will be finished. It might take a long time, but “Love is patient.” 1 Cor. 13:4.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby qaz » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:17 am

Hermano, as a universalist myself, I don't think the eternal punishment Jesus spoke of is unending punishment. The duration is not the issue here. The issue here is that Jesus warned about post-Calvary punishment.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby LLC » Wed Oct 25, 2017 11:34 am

davo wrote:Actually NO, I don’t think you are getting it. The OC encapsulated in the Law was not Israel’s doing but God’s, but by Israel’s hand the law was weakened (Rom 8:3) through disobedience and so its demise ensured; not due to the law AND commandment being bad (Rom 7:12) but that it could never bring righteousness. The TWO covenants symbolised in Sarah/Isaac and Hagar/Ishmael were of GOD, not man… how you can deny this staggers me. One however ultimately wrought death/condemnation (2Cor 3:7, 9) by the nature of it being law, and thus their faithless inability to live up to it; but the other breathed LIFE — that’s the contrast.


Well, I suppose that leaves us both staggered because it plainly says all throughout the Bible that this other covenant was NOT from God, it was the works of MAN.
1 Corinthians 10:3 tells us "Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the SAME SPIRITUAL FOOD( the bread of heaven) and all drank the SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK. For they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ."

This means that those coming out of Egypt received the SAME spiritual teachings as that which Jesus taught, the SAME word. They were given the WAY OF LIFE. However, some turned away and followed their own way as it says, Romans 1:25 "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshipped and served CREATED things rather than the Creator."
Psalm 106:20 "They made a calf in Horeb and worshipped a molten image. Thus they exchanged THEIR GLORY for the image of an ox that eats grass. They forgot God their Savoir."
Deut. 32: 18" Of the Rock who begot you, you are unmindful and have forgotten the God that fathered you."
The list of verses go on and on. I don't see how you can miss it.
Isaiah 1:10-17 "To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or lambs or goats.Vs. 13 incense is an abomination to Me, the new moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies. Your new moons and appointed feasts Mt soul hates.....Cease to do evil and learn to do good, reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow...."
ALL the books of the prophets say the SAME thing. The books of the New Testament say this as well. They were following man made doctrines(Mark7:7, Matt.15:9,Col 2:22, Titus 4:4 Romans 1:21-23 etc. etc. etc.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Origen; » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:35 pm

Hermano wrote:
qaz wrote:In the sheep and the goats parable Jesus says "eternal punishment".


Let me share this about "eternal" "punishment":

Hermano wrote:~Is hell a never-ending torture chamber, as commonly believed, or limited in time, and for corrective purposes? Recall: “Love never fails” (1 Corinthians 13:8). Reconsider Matthew 25:46, regarding the fate of the damned and of the saved. Jesus says,

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment but the righteous to eternal life.”

1. But the Greek word translated “eternal” (or “everlasting”) is aionios, and does NOT in fact mean "unending or everlasting in quantity of time." Rather, aionios speaks to an "indeterminate age set by God alone.” This adjective is used to describe something within time, not outside time (that is, in eternity). Aionios is the adjective form of the Greek word aion, where we get our English word “eon” (age). Young’s Literal Translation for aionios is always “age-during.”

2. And the Greek word translated in this verse as “punishment” is kolasis, a term used to describe the pruning back of trees, to allow fuller and healthier growth. It is also used to describe corrective punishment, “inflicted in the interest of the sufferer.” (For vindictive, vengeful punishment, “inflicted in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction,” the word timoria is used.)

Note: Many erroneously believe that if you deny that the punishment of this verse lasts forever, then you must also deny that the "eternal" life of the saved is unending. But that doesn't follow, because this verse is dealing with life, or punishment, WITHIN TIME, during the final eon. However, eternity is outside time.

In 1 Cor. 15:20-28, we discover where time will come to its end, and eternity will begin. When the last person has repented in the Lake of Fire, the purpose of the Lake will be finished. It might take a long time, but “Love is patient.” 1 Cor. 13:4.


So the aionios life (eternal life, NASB) ends because it is within time, but the "eternal life" never ends because it is outside of time?

Immortality will give those who receive it endless (i.e. eternal) life. For Christians this occurs when Christ returns & resurrects them from death.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:09 pm

Davo, perhaps I have misunderstood you, and misrepresented your position. If so, I apologize.

Do you believe it was God who destroyed Jerusalem in 70 AD, in righteous judgment? That God was, shall we say, “fed up,” and “let them have it,” after warning them (the Jews in Jerusalem) that He Himself would do it (via the Romans) unless they repented?

Or, do you believe God exclusively warned the Jews about Satan's plan for the destruction of Jerusalem (via the Romans), calling them to repentance in order to save them from it? That He was in no way responsible for, or instrumental in, Jerusalem’s destruction? That Satan alone is the destroyer?

Thanks.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:12 pm

qaz wrote:
davo wrote:“Israel” per sé wasn’t being “punished”. The old covenant which had been the life (though it came to be the spiritual death) of Israel was done… *the old covenant Mosaic world* of law-righteousness and all that symbolised it, was coming down and coming to naught. The nation had been redeemed at Calvary, and so all vestiges of the old régime had to go — unfortunately anyone ignoring the warnings given paid dearly.

Humanity had sat in the darkness of ignorance as to its Creator (Acts 17:27-28) but through the gospel (Israel’s redemption) the light of grace shone to the point where Gentiles could see their inclusion into this grace — that’s the wider reconciliation that flowed from Israel’s redemption, as per Romans 11 above.


In the sheep and the goats parable Jesus says "eternal punishment".

qaz wrote:The issue here is that Jesus warned about post-Calvary punishment.

He did indeed so warn… so qaz, as a prêterist, is your issue then with Jesus’ use of the word “eternal :?:

CLEARLY the text of Mt 25:33, 41, 46 references both goats AND sheep… so potential “punishment” was not wholly inclusive of the entire nation — my point… as it was in Paul’s plea of Rom 10:1 etc.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby qaz » Wed Oct 25, 2017 2:36 pm

Davo:
He did indeed so warn… so qaz, as a prêterist, is your issue then with Jesus’ use of the word “eternal” :?:


No. My issue was that you said Israel wasn't punished. In the sheep and goats parable, Jesus warns of punishment. As preterists, we interpret this punishment as occurring in 70. My question was why God would punish people he was simultaneously reconciled to.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Wed Oct 25, 2017 3:31 pm

Origen; wrote:So the aionios life (eternal life, NASB) ends because it is within time, but the "eternal life" never ends because it is outside of time?

Immortality will give those who receive it endless (i.e. eternal) life. For Christians this occurs when Christ returns & resurrects them from death.

I think so. The promise of “Age-during” life (wrongly translated “eternal” life) only has to do with how we may experience our existence within time. But eternity is time-LESS, and there, there is no rebellion, pain, suffering, death, beginning or end.

I believe all humans, in 2017, are either alive on earth, alive in some aspect of heaven, or suffering in the captivity of hell; yet all are still inside the boundaries of time and space.

However, I also think that all humans, and all angelic beings (see note), are also already outside time and space, enjoying never-ending adventures and experiences—with God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and each other—in an immortalized Creation, having all already “graduated” from the “classroom” of time.

    In eternity, everyone is already presently living 'happily ever after' with God.

We are all currently in two places at once, although we can’t really yet perceive it: in this “classroom,” as passing, or failing, students; and yet all of us also already living as successful “graduates,” in eternity.

Time and space enclose our classroom now; but eventually every last created person will repent and receive Jesus as Savior; and then we will all “graduate” together, into a single eternal existence, at a particular moment: when the last person (that slowest, most self-willed student among us) finally comes out of the Lake of Fire, and drinks the living water of Jesus that is freely available to all (Rev. 22:17).

Linear time will end with that person’s repentance, at some point in our future. We will all graduate together, as indicated in 1 Cor. 15:20-28:
Hermano wrote:"Then comes THE END” v. 24. All Death will have been abolished (which would include the Second Death, The Lake of Fire) v. 26, and God will finally be “all in all” v. 28.

Note: The first sinner was Lucifer. Speaking of the comprehensiveness of the redemptive work of Christ, and also our co-crucifixion with Him (Gal. 2:20), recall that the crucifixion of Jesus was prefigured in Numbers 21:9 by a bronze serpent on a pole. And Jesus promised, “And I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all [pas] to me.” John 12:32.

Blessings.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:01 pm

qaz wrote:Davo:
He did indeed so warn… so qaz, as a prêterist, is your issue then with Jesus’ use of the word “eternal” :?:


No. My issue was that you said Israel wasn't punished. In the sheep and goats parable, Jesus warns of punishment. As preterists, we interpret this punishment as occurring in 70. My question was why God would punish people he was simultaneously reconciled to.

qaz… can’t you see in my post above yours that the explanation was limited to certain ones within Israel, so to extrapolate as you do beyond this (and then make your various conclusions) is to ignore what I’ve previously noted, i.e., JUST BECAUSE Israel WAS redeemed whole-scale didn’t remove certain consequences flowing through — God in his mercy was giving them fair warning to turn… many did, plenty didn’t. That many didn’t doesn’t in any way shape or form nullify the divine reconciliation any more than the ignorance of those present nullified Jesus’ entreaty to the Father… “forgive them for they know not what they do” — that is of course unless you believe the Father did not grant Jesus’ plea.

Paul’s “And so all Israel will be saved” spoke to their redemption, and this was fulfilled. The FACT that SOME were temporally blinded in part, and as such either killed or taken captive to Rome reflects to reality of redemptive election where some were spared and some were not, BUT all together were in God’s hands with regards to the outworking of the reconciliation. That’s what Paul’s… “who are you O man to reply against God?” was all about. We look at it and think… “man, sucks to be them” — but in the bigger picture of God’s redemptive working BECAUSE they WERE reconciled all would have been well with them ultimately.

Still, I wouldn’t have liked to have been in their shoes. But again… my MAIN point was that the judgement of AD70 was on the OC institution that had been corrupted.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:23 pm

qaz wrote:Davo:
He did indeed so warn… so qaz, as a prêterist, is your issue then with Jesus’ use of the word “eternal” :?:


No. My issue was that you said Israel wasn't punished. In the sheep and goats parable, Jesus warns of punishment. As preterists, we interpret this punishment as occurring in 70. My question was why God would punish people he was simultaneously reconciled to.


Lets put it a different way, If we look at in a fundamental/ historical context.... you have a son or daughter that is really doing bad stuff, you continually tell them that the bad stuff they are doing is going to cause total harm, in other words, 'PLEASE TURN FROM WHAT YOU ARE DOING' and here is how you can change your way... so the son or daughter continue in the less than righteous behavior, you try multiple times to try to tell them they are screwing up... So in the end, because you love them so much, you say, 'I will pay your debt'. I love you. So the debt is being paid but the forces of the sons and daughters are rebelling... There are those who say Wait, I think I am doing what you want me to do... Your so called way out is crazy... But a son was put to death. :oops:

But the prophets before told the story to come... the story of the son...

In the end the Father clears the board, He has sent the one, In other words He sets all things straight. Ahh but HE continues to love the sons and daughters...

Can we argue with that?
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:26 pm

Hermano wrote:According to Davo’s recommended web site on pantelism, the Cross alone was NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption:
Redemption was fulfilled through the prophesied AD30–70 Cross–Parousia event.”

You really haven’t worked and thought through the implications of your own position… your own position is that redemption ISN’T complete UNTIL Christ’s parousia. All I’m saying is… “YEAH, and my position has that parousia as done!” THEREFORE redemption IS complete. So, in FACT, it is your own lack of parousia that has YOUR position denuding the Cross of its power, i.e., it is your position that is truly the one being…
NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption”.

Pantelism understands the AD30-70 event, i.e., Christ’s cross and parousia were bookends to God’s ONE-time salvific intervention into human history that ultimately covered and made provision for all.

    IOW… the Cross was God’s DECISIVE event with the Parousia being God’s CULMINATING event.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Hermano » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:13 pm

davo wrote:
Hermano wrote:According to Davo’s recommended web site on pantelism, the Cross alone was NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption:
Redemption was fulfilled through the prophesied AD30–70 Cross–Parousia event.”

You really haven’t worked and thought through the implications of your own position… your own position is that redemption ISN’T complete UNTIL Christ’s parousia. All I’m saying is… “YEAH, and my position has that parousia as done!” THEREFORE redemption IS complete. So, in FACT, it is your own lack of parousia that has YOUR position denuding the Cross of its power, i.e., it is your position that is truly the one being…
NOT enough for mankind’s complete redemption”.

Pantelism understands the AD30-70 event, i.e., Christ’s cross and parousia were bookends to God’s ONE-time salvific intervention into human history that ultimately covered and made provision for all.

    IOW… the Cross was God’s DECISIVE event with the Parousia being God’s CULMINATING event.

?

Our redemption was complete at the cross, before we were born: at the cross, we were all “bought at a price” (1 Cor. 6:20).

…Nevertheless, you and I are BOTH still waiting for “the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:23). The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future, yet we hope for it in faith and perseverance, trusting that God is faithful to His word, and that the promised glory will be a reality.

Or do you consider your body to be already glorified, Davo? :shock:
Philippians 3:21 - Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Corinthians 15:44 - It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:42-44 - So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:  

Matthew 22:30 - For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

Blessings.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby Origen; » Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:47 pm

maintenanceman wrote:Origen said:
That's interesting, Davo. Thanks for the explanation.

Pantelism is sort of new to me. I don't recall ever hearing of it before a year or two ago. Searching the internet in the past 24 hours, i'm surprised at how much info there is on the subject.


David is quite a scholar. The best. :D

You might want to look at this...http://www.presence.tv/integral-theology/



My concern was with the issue of future & post mortem punishment, or the denial thereof, as it relates to Pantelism.

Debating the various views of the future - Post, Pre & A-Millenialism, Preterism etc - don't hold much interest. Why bother.

I suppose all 99% of Christians would need to hear about it is the following before dismissing it entirely & never looking back:

""Pantelism, is a recent term in Christian eschatology that refers to what some see as an extension of Full Preterism. This view maintains that the Scriptures both prophetically and redemptively, were entirely fulfilled in the person and work of Christ and consummated at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Accordingly, this consummation included not only Christ’s Second Coming, but the final judgment, the resurrection of the just and the unjust..."
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:31 am

Hermano wrote:Our redemption was complete at the cross, before we were born: at the cross, we were all “bought at a price” (1 Cor. 6:20).

…Nevertheless, you and I are BOTH still waiting for “the redemption of our bodies (Romans 8:23). The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future, yet we hope for it in faith and perseverance, trusting that God is faithful to His word, and that the promised glory will be a reality.

You can’t with any legitimacy claim ‘1 Cor. 6:20’ was saying that ‘redemption was complete’ AND THEN slip in a qualifying… “The complete manifestation of our redemption is something still future” — that is NOWHERE in any text. If redemption is complete, it is complete, period. That you misconstrue Rom 8:23 doesn’t justify this bob-each-way claim.

Paul says… “the redemption of our body” — for the pantelist this is to be understood in terms of the ‘collective body politic’ — the Greek text is in the singular, NOT plural. The ‘body’ that was *being* redeemed, i.e., a change at that time in progress, was the covenant body of Israel… from OLD covenant to NEW covenant. And THAT is the understanding of the 1Cor 15 passages you likewise misconstrue.

The pantelist understanding of Romans 8 has nothing to do with the physical time-space creation… this passage is about “the creatureIsrael, and her redemption, i.e., covenant renewal aka resurrection:
Rom 8:18-23 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time (exponential tribulations AD30-70) are not worthy to be compared with the glory (glorified 8:30) which shall be revealed in us (firstfruit saints). For the earnest expectation of the creature (historic Israel) waiteth for the manifestation (election 11:5) of the sons of God (firstfruit saints). For the creature (historic Israel) was made subject to vanity (the Law), not willingly, but by reason of Him who hath subjected the same in hope (covenant renewal), because the creature (historic Israel) itself also shall be delivered (redeemed) from the bondage of corruption (the law) into the glorious liberty (grace) of the children of God (firstfruit saints). For we know that the whole creation (all Israel) groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they (historic Israel), but ourselves (firstfruit saints) also, which have the firstfruits (down payment) of the (eschatological) Spirit, even we ourselves (firstfruit saints) groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption (deliverance) of our body (‘singular’ — release from the OC ‘body’ of ‘the Death’ as per 7:24).

Hermano wrote: Or do you consider your body to be already glorified, Davo? :shock:

No… viewed from the pantelist position the 1Cor 15 passage is not speaking of you or me, and NOT speaking of “physical bodies in postmortem resurrection”. 1Cor 15 is all about Israel being raised up out of ‘the body of death’ aka the old covenant INTO ‘the body of Christ’ aka the new covenant.

Israel was sown in a natural body of dishonour and weakness — Judaism = corruption

Israel was being raised in a spiritual body of glory and power — Christianity = incorruption

Incorruption was being put off. When the last vestiges of were corruption were gone, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem and Temple in Christ’s AD70 Parousia THEN came to fulfillment “death is defeated.”
1Cor 15:56 The sting of the death is the sin, and the strength of the sin is the law.

The veracity of this understanding is backed up by the parsing of each and every “it is sown / it is raised” in the passage where EACH ONE is rendered in the *present tense* — an action in progress — thus “it is being sown” AND “it is being raised”. This was akin to Paul’s “putting off the old man” dying to self and thus being raised to newness of life, aka “putting on the new man” — putting on the new creation (new Israel) aka “the Israel of God” etc, etc.
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby qaz » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:05 am

Davo, I don't know why you say "whole creation" refers to Israel. Might you be reaching?
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby LLC » Thu Oct 26, 2017 10:03 am

davo wrote:Israel was sown in a natural body of dishonour and weakness — Judaism = corruption

Israel was being raised in a spiritual body of glory and power — Christianity = incorruption


This is the problem from your point of view, as with many who believe God's word was lost because of Adam, consequently developing over time until finally being revealed in Jesus. However, this is not the case at all. In fact, it is quite the opposite. God's word began with Adam in the garden wherein he tested it and found it to be true. He then passed it on to his children, who passed it on to their children and so on and so forth.

Israel was not sown in corruption as you state, rather it was sown in righteousness, the righteousness of Abraham and those that came before him, as it says here
LLC wrote:1 Corinthians 10:3 tells us "Moreover brethren I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the SAME SPIRITUAL FOOD( the bread of heaven) and all drank the SAME SPIRITUAL DRINK. For they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them and that Rock was Christ."


These people were given the same instructions, the same word, that Jesus taught. As Jesus Himself said, His words were not His but his Father's, meaning they were not only God's words, but the words of the forefathers. These words were what the nation of Israel was founded on, as it says in Joshua 21:43-45 "So the Lord gave Israel all the land which He had sworn to give to their fathers and they took possession of it and dwelt in it. The lord gave them rest all around, according to all that he had sworn to their fathers. And not a man of all their enemies stood against them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand. Not a word failed of any good thing which the Lord had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass.

As in the parable of the wheat and the tares, the "law" entered in via man.
Isaiah 5:4 "And now O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah, judge between Me and My vineyard what more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it? Why when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
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Re: 70 AD- calling you Davo

Postby davo » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:34 pm

qaz wrote:Davo, I don't know why you say "whole creation" refers to Israel. Might you be reaching?

Could be, in fact I originally naturally took *whole creation* to mean humanity, and I don’t really have an issue with that but to say *thematically* applying it to Israel makes more sense IMO. The passage is the contrast between the creature/creation Israel and the firstfruits (sons/children of God in Christ) elected to bring to fruition the redemption… that which they were the firstfruits thereof, i.e., Israel. This then follows Paul’s same… “and so all Israel (whole creation) will be saved (redeemed).”

Ultimately what God is doing in the biblical story for the wider creation of humanity He is doing FIRST for His Creature Israel… “to the Jew first and then the Greek” etc. I tend to think a goodly portion of “the world” language speaks to and of Israel’s world, such as Jn 3:16 and 1Jn 2:2. That is not to say such can’t have application beyond, BUT I think the evangelical trend of reading ourselves directly into everything INSTEAD OF seeing such as applying secondarily as the divinely intended beneficiaries; this I tend to think can at times miss and mess with the text… but that’s just my opinion.

As I showed earlier in this thread, according to the pantelist position… the likes of Paul’s words elsewhere show the extent and reach of Israel’s redemption to be the divinely intended catalyst and prerequisite to securing humanity’s reconciliation, i.e., it was ALWAYS God’s plan for all…
Rom 11:12, 15 Now if their (Israel's) fall is riches for the world (humanity), and their (Israel's) failure riches for the Gentiles (firstfruit saints Acts 13:48; 15:14, 17), how much more their (Israel's) fullness! … For if their (Israel) being cast away (by God) is the reconciling of the world (humanity), what will their (Israel's) acceptance (by God) be but life (redemptive resurrection) from the dead?

    Thus did Israel’s redemption reconcile the world — to quote somebody really important… “it is finished!
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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