The Evangelical Universalist Forum

A Christian Response To North Korea

The relevant verses from Romans:

I might add these words of Jesus:

“Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword. Matthew 26:52.

And this relevant excerpt from Richard Murray’s book, God versus Evil:

I will probably be off the grid for a while, due to a long project. So…

Every blessing to you!

(I am copying my comment to Paidion here, as well, from the thread, “The Purge: Election Year, Hypocrisy, and The Nature Of God”)

Well… I haven’t assigned blame to anyone; I made a prediction.

When leaders of two countries are determined to carry out the agendas which they prescribe for their countries’ safety, and each is suspicious of the motives of the other, war between the two countries is likely.

-If you will not assign blame to either man, does that mean you judge Donald Trump and Kim Jong-un to be morally equivalent?

-Would you agree that there are demonic forces at work in this escalation? If so, do you think God wants Christians to fight against them in some manner? If so, how?

Blessings.

I am in no position to judge that.

I don’t know enough about the activities of demons to judge.

NO. Jesus, who is the exact image of the Father’s essence (Heb 1:3), instructed His disciples not to seek vengeance—to love their enemies and do good to them. In that way, they would show themselves truly to be children of God since God is kind to ungrateful and evil people (Luke 6:35).

-James 4:7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

-2 Cor. 10:3-5 *For though we live in the world, **we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with *are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

-Luke 10:19 Behold, I have given you authority to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall hurt you.

-Eph. 6:13-18 *Therefore put on the full armor of God…Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. * (Literally, “through all prayer and supplication praying at all times in the Spirit.” So, I might argue that the “sword of the Spirit” refers to praying in tongues.)

Friends of this forum: there is big place for the intellect in Christianity, but a bigger place for the heart. For example, I finally “heard” the truth of evangelical universalism peacefully in my heart, and my tormented head just had to submit…and try to catch up later.

Let us be led by our heart, where Jesus dwells. Otherwise, we may get sidetracked by intellectualism.

So—

-How does someone know if he is genuinely born again?

-What about the true nature of God? Does He ever kill people? Is He bipolar (like the tree of the knowledge of good and evil), or unipolar (like the tree of life)?

-What about the virgin birth?

-What about the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today, like tongues and prophecy?

—Should we ask God for the answers, or have we already correctly figured them out for ourselves? (And will we–or did we–discern those answers with our head, or with our heart?)

Blessings.

I’ll share my own thoughts about your questions, for what they’re worth:

We need to be cautious about being “led by our heart.” Some people’s hearts lead them to places where Christians ought not to reside. Also, having removed the “ism” from the word and also the “ual” we are left with a word which doesn’t have such negative connotations— namely “intellect.”

Without intellect with its logic, our hearts can lead us into trouble. The intellect and God’s enabling grace can steer our hearts in the right direction.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

It’s actually “begotten again,” (but we won’t quibble about that). I think we can know if we realize that we are making different choice in life than hitherto.— If we delight in serving others more than in serving ourselves—if our choices tend to help others rather than hurt them.

NEVER

The apostle John wrote twice that God IS love (1 John 4:8,16); He didn’t say that He is love plus something else.

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (1 John 1:5 ESV)

If John had believed God to be bipolar, he would have written, “This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and also darkness.”

It took place according to two of the writers of the memoirs of Christ. Why should we doubt it?

Yes. There is no Scriptural evidence that they have ceased.

If we are regenerated and walking with God, we together with Him will arrive at the truth about many things.

It’s not an either/or matter. We discern the answers with our head, with our heart, and with God’s presence within us.

Paidion said:

This is a very interesting point of view… So many evangelicals are quick to claim ‘God led me/told me to do so and so’ and thus they do things that God may or may not be calling them to do. :wink:

So Paidion, in your view, how does someone know what God wants them to do? :open_mouth:

Thanks

Why should we not believe in the virgin birth? Because it is irrational. What is more likely, that Mary was inseminated by an unseen force, or by a man? Clearly, the rational response is from a man.

As for tongues, I don’t believe it is anything more than babbling. It is known as glossolalia. Many former "Christian’s’ can do this at will, but are now atheists. That was an eye-opener for me. As far as prophecy, “throw enough crap on the wall and some of it is sure to stick.” Now, just take the stuff that seemingly sticks and put it in a book (AKA the Bible).

Not saying you can’t choose to believe these things, but these are not rational beliefs. Rational as defined as knowing how our world works, seeing nature, and interpreting these events based on how they play out in nature. For example, if you daughter ended up pregnant and she said she never had sex with anyone (Nor did artificial insemination), would you say “Well, I have no reason to doubt her!” Clearly, not a rational response. Now add 2,000 years, never meeting Mary, why would you have more reason to believe it? It seems to me you would have even less reason, especially since it is known that the ancient world was very superstitious.

Why should we not believe in the virgin birth? Because it is irrational. What is more likely, that Mary was inseminated by an unseen force, or by a man? Clearly, the rational response is from a man.

Is it to hard for God? Two gospel writers referenced it in some detail and even Paul IMO alluded to it by saying “born of a women” instead of man and women.
Miracles of God are not judged by rationality alone but also by faith.

Not saying you can’t choose to believe these things, but these are not rational beliefs. Rational as defined as knowing how our world works, seeing nature, and interpreting these events based on how they play out in nature. For example, if you daughter ended up pregnant and she said she never had sex with anyone (Nor did artificial insemination), would you say “Well, I have no reason to doubt her!” Clearly, not a rational response. Now add 2,000 years, never meeting Mary, why would you have more reason to believe it? It seems to me you would have even less reason, especially since it is known that the ancient world was very superstitious.

This is the standard operating atheist argument so if you think it adds up for you then go for it.

It is not a matter of it being too difficult for God. Since this has never, ever, happened before, you have the burden of proof to explain why it is reasonable to conclude God did such a thing. Again, it isn’t “Can God do this?” rather, it is “Did God do this?” which is very big difference.

If it is a standard argument, then it is only such because it is a logical conclusion. It isn’t like I received this information from an atheist apologist site. The only thing I have started to do is have the courage to boldly challenge things I have never really challenged before. As noted before, I am very sympathetic to Christianity, or at least the reconciliation of all version of it. But, I can’t deny I am a doubting Thomas, as some things just don’t add up. I have always maintained that I could be wrong. I view the situation like a 1,000 sided dice. To declare that it will roll a “1” is just not a wise use of knowledge. To declare that it “could” roll a 1, but is unlikely, would be a wise conclusion. If Jesus came to our world 2,000 years ago, and was seen by his generation, revealed himself to Thomas, I don’t see why I can’t do the same. He is free to do to me what he did with Thomas. I certainly wouldn’t argue with him.

It is not a matter of it being too difficult for God. Since this has never, ever, happened before, you have the burden of proof to explain why it is reasonable to conclude God did such a thing. Again, it isn’t “Can God do this” it is “Did God do this?” very big difference.

If people want a “burden of proof” they shouldn’t bother with the bible and i think you know that. Whether one finds it reasonable boils down to whether one finds the bible believable in total and then this is another miracle among many.

If it is a standard argument, then it is only such because it is a logical conclusion. It isn’t like I received this information from an atheist apologist site. The only thing I have started to do is have the courage to boldly challenge things I have never really challenged before.

Of course it’s logical and rational not to believe and also to demand proof. Regarding “courage” and “boldly challenge” , do you think everyone here at this forum has not done that? Obviously you have to go down your own path but i bet everyone here has thought about the same issues many times.

No, I do not mean to insinuate others have not done this. I am merely pointing out that I never delved into this questions because I was scared of the unknown. So, for me, it was an act of courage and as a result, I have doubts. I wouldn’t have it any other way, though.

“If there’s no room for doubt, there’s no room for me” - F. Beuchner

quote
If you’re absolutely certain about all your beliefs about God, Jesus, religion, faith, and the meaning of life, then the writings of Frederick Buechner may appeal less to you. If on the other hand you have questions or doubts, or if you believe that the very essence of faith in God means acceptance without irrefutable proof, then you will strongly resonate with what Buechner has to say.

A common feature across Buechner’s fiction is the presence of characters who struggle with questions of faith in the midst of despair. Buechner “let’s doubt and darkness have their say along with faith and hope.” Rather than stating dogmatic conclusions to the struggle, Buechner allows his characters the freedom to be truly human, inviting his readers to decide for themselves how faith intersects with life. Similarly, in his nonfiction Buechner states his belief that “If there’s no room for doubt, there’s no room for me.” The very impossibility of proof is the gap that God occupies. Buechner experiences faith as centrally mysterious and beyond evidence. end quote from frederickbuechner.com/faith-despite-doubt/

One further thing I will comment on is the misconception that doubters are God-Haters. I was raised believing that any agnostic or atheist person was a God-Hater who is in rebellion. They know the truth and are actively fighting against it. So for the longest time I always figured those people had evil motives. It wasn’t until I started to doubt that I realized these people are not rebellious, for I am not. I don’t hate God (assuming he exists) and if I don’t hate him, then I doubt others hate him as well. Thomas didn’t hate him and we know how adamant he was for proof… So what I learned is that often times people will attribute evil motives to people who believe different on things. I am not suggesting, of course, that it can’t ever be that way, but why not look for the good in people rather than the evil? Why must someone who differs with us on views/religions/politics be “evil”?

Thomas didn’t hate him and we know how adamant he was for proof… So what I learned is that often times people will attribute evil motives to people who believe different on things. I am not suggesting, of course, that it can’t ever be that way, but why not look for the good in people rather than the evil? Why must someone who differs with us on views/religions/politics be “evil”?
Gabe Grinstead

Posts: 649
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:55 pm

Well to believe Thomas didn’t hate God you would have to believe the bible? But at this forum i’m sure no one thinks unbelievers hate God although i agree it has been a traditional Christian belief.

I would argue that, there is arrogant intellectualism; there is religious fanaticism; and there is true spirituality.

True spirituality is the intellect in submission to the Holy Spirit: the head in submission to the heart. (I guess it needs to be said that true spirituality—something God desires for every man—is only attainable by someone who has genuinely been born again by the Spirit of divine love.)

Both intellectualism and fanaticism are the mind governed by the flesh. I think in this forum, we err more on the side of intellectualism, than fanaticism.

There are competing positions within Christianity, so how do we know which ones are right? How do we correctly judge the evidence? Well, I submit that WE ASK GOD to lead us, and confirm to us.

-Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding. Proverbs 3:5.

-Call to me, and I will answer you. Jeremiah 33:3.

-Ask and it will be given to you. Matthew 7:7.

-The Spirit of truth…will guide you into all the truth. John 16:13.

-In everything by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, let your requests be made known to God. Philippians 4:7.

-If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. James 1:5.

And how does God principally lead and confirm? With his peace.

*“The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.” * Romans 8:6.

Christians must learn to be led by the peace of God. As we surrender to the lordship of Jesus Christ in our lives, he brings us to a place where we experience his blessed peace on an ongoing basis.

“You will keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on You, because he trusts in You.” Isaiah 26:3.

So, back to North Korea, demons, and effective spiritual warfare; it appears my call to arms remains unaccepted:

Blessings.