What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

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What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Origen; » Sat Jun 03, 2017 12:22 pm

The apostle to the Gentiles said:

"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (Galatians 5:1)
"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any." (1 Cor 6:12)
Gal.5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Galatians 5:18 But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law.

Are Christians or Gentiles obligated to follow Jesus' words here:

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.…(Matthew 5)

Or was the law given to Israel, not the Gentile nations? And Jesus only speaking to those of Israel:

Matthew 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Why should Gentiles or Christians be under any obligations to OT laws? Or anything Jesus said in the 4 gospels? Or any other NT writings addressed to Israelites or Jews?
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby qaz » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:15 pm

16 And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; 19 Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:35 pm

Well, here are answers from the Calvinist perspectives, at Got Questions and CARM ;)

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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby qaz » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:54 pm

Randy, if you are not a Calvinist, why are you always directing people to Calvinist interpretations?
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:27 pm

qaz wrote:Randy, if you are not a Calvinist, why are you always directing people to Calvinist interpretations?


Image

Simple. I think both CARM and Got Questions, provide good Biblical answers to questions. Or at least they give us, a good starting point for discussions.

Actually, philosophical, theological and scientific ideas, can come from many sources. And we don't have to agree, with their overall theology. Once I even quoted the answer of Jehovah Witnesses - as one of the different answers, to a Biblical and theological discussion here (i.e. see Satan and Revelations).

Image

How about a song regarding Calvinism - to lighten things up :?: :lol:

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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Paidion » Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:03 pm

For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. (Galatians 5:1)


Paul is here speaking of being set free from the law of Moses. That's why he wrote Galatians. There were certain people who had gotten into the fellowship who were trying to get them to submit again to the law of Moses.

Christians are submitted to the law of Christ. Paul indicated that he himself was.

1 Corinthians 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

Galatians 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.


After spelling out his commandments (as recorded in Matthew 5,6, and 7) Jesus finished his discourse with the following words:

Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” Matthew 7:24-27 ESV)

(Underlining mine)
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Origen; » Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:16 am

"The majority of dispensationalists are known as Acts 2 dispensationalists. They believe the present church began on the day of Pentecost in Acts
chapter 2 and practice water baptism. The majority also believe the New Testament epistles of Hebrews through Revelation were written directly to the present church. Likewise, most dispensationalists also believe the doctrine contained in the Four Gospels also pertains to the present church."

"However, there are two minority camps within dispensationalism branded by their opponents as hyper-dispensationalists and ultra-dispensationalists. One camp, known as the Mid-Acts view, believes the church began with the Apostle Paul (in either Acts chapter 9 or others in chapter 13 and there are a very few variations) and do not practice water baptism as it is seen as only for Israel. The second camp believes that the church began with the Apostle Paul after Acts 28:28 with Paul's announcement "Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it" and see both water baptism and the Lord's Supper as only for Israel. [4] The Acts 28 camp sees Paul's ministry from the middle of Acts to the end of the book as part of Israel's administration of the Abrahamic Covenant and not part of the present dispensation, and consequently Paul's epistles written prior to the so-called Prison Epistles are then not directly for the church today either."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensat ... t_theology
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby LLC » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:11 pm

We are obligated to obey all that Jesus taught, for this is the Word that was established by God at the foundation of the world and written in our hearts and minds that men should walk in. Jesus did away with the things that were NOT from God but were "tares that had grown up among the wheat." Some of what was in the Levitical Law was of pagan origin such as the sacrificing of animals, ritual cleansing, ceremonial practices, etc. As Galatians 4:21-31 says, this covenant came from Mount Sinai of Arabia(Hagar), a foreign location, rather than Mount Horeb, the mountain of God. For Abraham had two sons and the "seed" became mixed.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Jul 13, 2017 4:55 pm

LLC wrote:We are obligated to obey all that Jesus taught, for this is the Word that was established by God at the foundation of the world and written in our hearts and minds that men should walk in. Jesus did away with the things that were NOT from God but were "tares that had grown up among the wheat." Some of what was in the Levitical Law was of pagan origin such as the sacrificing of animals, ritual cleansing, ceremonial practices, etc. As Galatians 4:21-31 says, this covenant came from Mount Sinai of Arabia(Hagar), a foreign location, rather than Mount Horeb, the mountain of God. For Abraham had two sons and the "seed" became mixed.


I would say that the Idea that we are a new creation, would figure into the equation. The laws of God that are supposed to be obeyed are few and actually nothing, in context with what is needed in our relationship with God. Christ fulfilled all that was necessary, and we can be assured that our standing with the creator God is perfect.

See acts acts 13:16-41 (look at it!)

2Co 5:17 Anyone who is joined to Christ is a new being; the old is gone, the new has come.
2Co 5:18 All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also.
2Co 5:19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Paidion » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:17 pm

Hi MM, you quoted:
2Co 5:19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.


Where did you get this "translation" or paraphrase? The word "friends" does not occur in the Greek. The ESV is a good translation:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:17-19)


The passage first speaks of those who are in Christ. To be in Christ, we must become reconciled to Him. That requires a change of mind and heart, and a willingness to change our behaviour. It is then that we are reconciled to Christ and are a new creation. And we have the divine commission to bring the message of reconciliation to the world, so that others can become overcomers and be Christ-like also.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Jul 13, 2017 5:48 pm

Paidion wrote:Hi MM, you quoted:
2Co 5:19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ. God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.


Where did you get this "translation" or paraphrase? The word "friends" does not occur in the Greek. The ESV is a good translation:

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. (2 Corinthians 5:17-19)


The passage first speaks of those who are in Christ. To be in Christ, we must become reconciled to Him. That requires a change of mind and heart, and a willingness to change our behaviour. It is then that we are reconciled to Christ and are a new creation. And we have the divine commission to bring the message of reconciliation to the world, so that others can become overcomers and be Christ-like also.


Hmm...... As far as reconciliation, I can quote many a proof text but the bottom line is that you believe that we need to do something to receive Christ's gift, and I say Christ's gift is a free gift to Israel and thus humanity. Thus when we realize it we become believers. :o

I think we are discussing this in another thread. :?
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby LLC » Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:26 pm

MM, If one is going about stealing, lying, cheating, committing adultery etc.etc. then he is not friends with God. So I would say that we need to be obeying these Laws.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:14 am

LLC wrote:MM, If one is going about stealing, lying, cheating, committing adultery etc.etc. then he is not friends with God. So I would say that we need to be obeying these Laws.


Ahh that is the rub. In my opinion, the separation between God and man because of sin has been permanently reconciled through Christ. In other words, God does not hold sin against us. This is important for it Makes Christ's sacrifice eternally effective. Not conditional as to whether we accept it or not.

If you lie, cheat, steal, have adulterous affairs etc, you are correct, you are not being a friend to God.

I need to follow the laws of my country in order to not get thrown in jail or fined. Thus following those laws keeps my relationship intact.

If I lie cheat steal etc, my relationship with my neighbor will at some point be strained or severed, and that is always tragic.

But the good news is God took it upon himself to make his relationship to man complete, even when we don't reciprocate.

Once again, just my .02 worth :D
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby steve7150 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:43 am

We are obligated to obey all that Jesus taught,











Yes and his apostles whom he sent and there are over 150 laws/principals in the NT.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Hermano » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:30 am

Origen; wrote:...Are Christians or Gentiles obligated to follow Jesus' words here:

17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill [plēroō] them.…(Matthew 5)

Jesus indeed fulfilled the Law FOR US:
plēroō: “after, be complete, end, expire, fill up” (Strong’s), “so that nothing shall be wanting(Thayer’s).

During His earthly ministry Jesus functioned under the Old Covenant of the Law. He did not break the Law, He fulfilled the Law. The New Covenant was initiated by the death of Jesus on the Cross. Therefore, our way of relating to God changed after the Cross and the initiation of the New Covenant. So, the believer on this side of the Cross is totally forgiven (past, present, and future) at the time of salvation.

Satanically inspired dogma—the legalistic embellishments and threats added to God's communications by Moses—were nailed to the cross by God:

Col 2:14   “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances [DOGMA] that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”

DOGMA: "...2. The rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment." (Thayer's)

God is a unipolar Daddy of LOVE. Like many still today, Moses did not understand that, and so he sometimes conflated God with Satan in his understanding.

Only the “royal law” applies nowadays: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Js. 2:8. And that single law can only be genuinely followed by those who have Jesus in their hearts.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby steve7150 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 8:18 am

Or was the law given to Israel, not the Gentile nations? And Jesus only speaking to those of Israel:









The law given to Israel was the Mosaic Law and that was what Jesus fulfilled. But Jesus and his apostles also gave over 150 laws/principals/guidelines that covered most aspects of the Christian life that "Love your neighbor" didn't specifically address like guidance on divorce or marrying unbelievers or giving to charity etc etc.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Paidion » Fri Jul 14, 2017 9:41 am

MM wrote:Hmm...... As far as reconciliation, I can quote many a proof text but the bottom line is that you believe that we need to do something to receive Christ's gift, and I say Christ's gift is a free gift to Israel and thus humanity.


NO! I do not believe that we need to do something to receive Christ's gift!

However, I do not believe that Christ's gift is what you seem to think it to be. It is not a means of satisfying God so that our evil deeds (whether in the past or continuing in the present) will receive no consequences.

Christ's gift to us is DELIVERANCE from the evil in our characters. If we refuse to be delivered, we are thereby not receiving Christ's gift. God will never stop working on us until we become righteous.

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6 ESV)
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby steve7150 » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:15 am

However, I do not believe that Christ's gift is what you seem to think it to be. It is not a means of satisfying God so that our evil deeds (whether in the past or continuing in the present) will receive no consequences.

Christ's gift to us is DELIVERANCE from the evil in our characters. If we refuse to be delivered, we are thereby not receiving Christ's gift. God will never stop working on us until we become righteous.









These are not mutually exclusive, they are not either this or that! :idea:
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How God Can Be Satisfied

Postby Paidion » Fri Jul 14, 2017 11:45 am

I think they ARE mutually exclusive, since God doesn't obtain SATISFACTION for ANY wrongdoing in the sense that Christ was our substitute and "paid the penalty" for sin. For God does not require anyone to pay a penalty for sin. Only man demands a penalty to be paid for wrongdoing. God is interested only in seeing the wrongdoer become righteous through His enabling grace (made available through Christ's sacrifice. As my signature statement affirms:

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.


God will obtain SATISFACTION only when He sees a sinner repent and become righteous with the help of His enabling grace.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Jul 14, 2017 3:47 pm

paidion said:
Christ's gift to us is DELIVERANCE from the evil in our characters. If we refuse to be delivered, we are thereby not receiving Christ's gift. God will never stop working on us until we become righteous.

Your contention is that until we accept the deliverance, deliverance is not possible?
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Jul 14, 2017 4:19 pm

Jason, how is it that in the thread 'what laws are Christians obligated to obey' That a Paidion response has the heading 'How can God be satisfied' ? just asking...
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby davo » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:38 pm

Chad, you simply change the heading in the *Subject:* box just above the posting box, to whatever you want it to be.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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How is Deliverance Possible Without Accepting It?

Postby Paidion » Fri Jul 14, 2017 5:45 pm

Hi Chad, you wrote:Your contention is that until we accept the deliverance, deliverance is not possible?


Suppose you went to a prison, with a notice from a judge that the prisoner had been legally freed. But suppose the prisoner does not believe the notice, and refuses to come out of the prison. How is it possible to deliver him from that prison?

Perhaps the following is a better example:

Suppose an alcoholic is offered a program that can enable him to be delivered from alcoholism. But he doesn't want to be delivered, and so he refuses to participate in the program. Since he doesn't accept deliverance from alcoholism, how is deliverance possible?
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Re: How is Deliverance Possible Without Accepting It?

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Jul 14, 2017 6:05 pm

Paidion wrote:
Hi Chad, you wrote:Your contention is that until we accept the deliverance, deliverance is not possible?


Suppose you went to a prison, with a notice from a judge that the prisoner had been legally freed. But suppose the prisoner does not believe the notice, and refuses to come out of the prison. How is it possible to deliver him from that prison?

Perhaps the following is a better example:

Suppose an alcoholic is offered a program that can enable him to be delivered from alcoholism. But he doesn't want to be delivered, and so he refuses to participate in the program. Since he doesn't accept deliverance from alcoholism, how is deliverance possible?


These are good examples. So a prisoner is suddenly freed from his/her capture, the freedom is there... If they choose to walk out of the cell, they will experience the freedom. If they choose to not walk out of the door, they will not experience the freedom of Christ, but none the less, the door, BECAUSE OF CHRIST is open. Christ has done what the Father has willed, the reconciliation has happened.

My position is to not somehow degrade Christ's work because a person chooses not to accept it. :shock:

That is as plain as I can Make it. :D

My position is what Christ has done and your position seems to be what we are lacking when we do not choose to follow. In the end it is maybe the same. :?
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby Paidion » Fri Jul 14, 2017 7:37 pm

Chad wrote:If they choose to not walk out of the door, they will not experience the freedom of Christ, but none the less, the door, BECAUSE OF CHRIST is open.


You are right! The door is still open no matter what their choice!

Christ has done what the Father has willed, the reconciliation has happened.


No. Any individual will be reconciled with God only if he chooses to be, through having a change of heart and mind, and submitting to the will of God, and afterward by faith receiving God's enabling grace. God wants righteous people. If a person is unwilling to submit to God, then he will continue living in the same way without deliverance. He cannot be reconciled to God. But when he submits to God, his reconciliation to God takes place, and God begins to deliver him. Without submission to God, it's a similar situation to that of the alcoholic who refuses to submit to a program that could deliver him from alcoholism.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Jul 15, 2017 7:08 pm

Paidion wrote:
Chad wrote:If they choose to not walk out of the door, they will not experience the freedom of Christ, but none the less, the door, BECAUSE OF CHRIST is open.


You are right! The door is still open no matter what their choice!

Christ has done what the Father has willed, the reconciliation has happened.


No. Any individual will be reconciled with God only if he chooses to be, through having a change of heart and mind, and submitting to the will of God, and afterward by faith receiving God's enabling grace. God wants righteous people. If a person is unwilling to submit to God, then he will continue living in the same way without deliverance. He cannot be reconciled to God. But when he submits to God, his reconciliation to God takes place, and God begins to deliver him. Without submission to God, it's a similar situation to that of the alcoholic who refuses to submit to a program that could deliver him from alcoholism.


Your view is understandable but flawed... Gods door is open. In this life we will choose whether we acknowledge and accept him or not. Our reconciliation in this physical life is as you say contingent upon understanding about what Christ has done. But the door is always open... Christ did the work and paid the price... The door , because of Him is always open! I think that when we travel from this side to the other, we will totally understand who and what Christ is and is about. :shock:
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby LLC » Mon Jul 17, 2017 12:39 am

MM, The Jewish law was incompatible with God. Jesus gave us the Law according to God, so that we would know the way of salvation. As I mentioned before, some of what was in the Levitical Law was NOT from God, and there were also misinterpretations. Because of this, many were held captive by the law. The works of God were not getting done.
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby qaz » Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:50 am

LLC wrote:We are obligated to obey all that Jesus taught, for this is the Word that was established by God at the foundation of the world and written in our hearts and minds that men should walk in. Jesus did away with the things that were NOT from God but were "tares that had grown up among the wheat." Some of what was in the Levitical Law was of pagan origin such as the sacrificing of animals, ritual cleansing, ceremonial practices, etc. As Galatians 4:21-31 says, this covenant came from Mount Sinai of Arabia(Hagar), a foreign location, rather than Mount Horeb, the mountain of God. For Abraham had two sons and the "seed" became mixed.


That's an interesting perspective I am not familiar with. Can you elaborate?
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Re: What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

Postby LLC » Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:40 am

qaz, When the children of Israel delivered from Egypt, as 1Corinthians 10:3 says, "They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them. And that Rock was Christ." This means that they were all raised in the Word, given the manna from heaven( the bread of life/bread of heaven)and united in the Spirit( the same things Jesus taught). However, shortly thereafter, some turned away and worshipped the "golden calf" as it says in Psalm 106:19-22,"They made a calf in Horeb and worshipped a molten image.Thus they exchanged their glory for the image of an ox that eats grass. They forgot God their Savior, who had done great things in Egypt." These people became the sons of Abraham through physical relationship only. No longer of the same spiritual "seed", they returned to the foreign ways of the pagan gods, thus a mixing of the "seed". Some of these beliefs are reflected in the Levitical law. Some were changed because the spiritual meaning of the words became lost and were instead taken literally. As Galatians 3:9 says, the Law was added to because of transgression. It was not God who added to the Law, it was man. It is a transgression to add to, or change Law. Neither are we to mix the seed as Deuteronomy 22:9 points out; "You shall not sow your vineyard with two kinds of seed, or all the produce of the seed which you have sown and the increase of the vineyard will be defiled."
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