You might find it interesting, Eaglesway, that the Online Bible’s Greek lexicon gives as its first and primary meaning of βασανιζω (basanizō):

The English word “basalt” is derived from the Greek βασανος (basanos), which means “touchstone” and was doubtless the type of stone that was used.

On this basis, I would translate the clause in Rev. 14:10 as “He shall be tested with fire and brimstone.” That is, as he is continually receiving correction, he will be tested from time to time to see whether or not he is ready to repent. I take the “fire and brimstone” figuratively as much in the book of Revelation must be taken, since Revelation consists mostly of a vision that John saw at Patmos.

Yes, I had read that, but thanks, because it is beautiful and definitely applies. I like tested, but I also like buffeted. These are adversaries, and in addition to being tested and tried and assayed, I believe they will be buffeted. So I wonder if there is a word which could include both concepts, tested and buffeted

smelted? refined? purified? I believe the lake of fire represents all those aspects of being subjected to the presence of the One who dwells in unapproachable light, and having every hidden thing brought to the surface…for exposure(confession) and dissolution(remission).

I like Malachi 3

But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. 3 He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. 4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.

5 “Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me,” says the Lord of hosts. 6 “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

These are very similar to Rev 14:10 and 21:8 and 22:15… Also Mt 25;42-46

Tested/buffeted in the presence of… I will draw near to you for judgment, etc.

But because of your hard and unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of wrath, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each one according to his deeds.” 7To those who by perseverance in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, He will give eternal life.… Rom 2

for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus. Rom 2

Then I saw a great white throne and the One who sat on it. The earth and the heavens fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne. And there were open books, and one of them was the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.… Rev 21

So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. 10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. 11Therefore, since we know what it means to fear of the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is clear to God, and I hope it is clear to your conscience as well.…2 Cor 5

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it pierces even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow. It is able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight; everything is uncovered and exposed before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.…Heb 4

Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; **for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, **and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.Heb 10

25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN.” 27This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12

The similarity between the wording in verse in Heb 12 and the verses in 2 Peter 3 are very similar

This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire…

“…the heavens will be dissolved by burning heat and the earth and the works in it will be exposed” .

Here are some of my favorites:

Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8

This says it all for me…Love, especially the love of God, the ultimate criteria of love, will never fail. And for thousands or millions or however many of his children would be destined for Hell, I would say that could be considered a ‘failure’.

6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:6

It says in the Bible we were all created to do good works, which God chose for us, before the world began. If we are created to do good works, then God began a good work in us, and if that is so, then He will complete it at the day of Jesus Christ.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 Timothy 4:10

I like this one because it seems to me there is no refuting the inclusiveness of God’s saving the entire world, because not only will believers be saved, but also those who don’t believe.

…21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.… 1 Corinthians 15:22

Again, I love the inclusiveness of this statement. We know we all died in Adam…just look around…but this states an analogy, that just as all died in Adam, all will be made alive, in Christ.

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. John 3:17

God sent His Son to save the world.

…37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.… Romans 8:37-39

There is NOTHING, that can separate us from God, therefore, there are NO limits to the fact that God can reach us, wherever we are, and if that is the case, His great love will never cease to try to bring us home.

Reading through, there are many others that I would call favorites, as well. The longer I am a UR believer, the more verses seem to afirm this. Our perception is so important…just a little turn in our way of thinking and everything changes, thanks, I am sure, to the Holy Spirit.

D.

Great list of verses. God can indeed do anything He wants, and He wants everyone to be saved. Surely this verse is enough to disprove the traditional assumption of everyone but Universalists that once people are in Hell, God no longer has any interest in saving them.

But does He want to save people who don’t WANT to be saved? It is observed on this thread that God will not FORCE any knee to bow. Doesn’t that same theorized unwillingness of God to snuff out our free will apply to saving us?

An 1873 tract amazon.com/Doomed-saved-discourse-Anniversary-Clerkenwell/dp/B0008CTXHQwas titled “Doomed to be saved”.

The special challenge to absolute Universalism, (the theology that EVERYONE eventually gets out of Hell) in my view, comes down to “for ever and ever” in Revelation 14:11 and 20:10. I can deal with the references to “for ever”, where aionos means “age”. But “ages of ages” inescapably, so far as I can determine, means what the English word “forever” means.

And yet the Universalist view that many, if not most, are finally released from Hell, I find supported by many verses. But not all will WANT to go to Heaven to abide with God whom they hate, where they are restricted from hurting others.

So what is the solution? I have developed the theory that the Shed Blood of Jesus is offered even in Hell, but many will reject God forever. After all, we know it is possible, though incomprehensible, for humans to turn against God, light, truth, love, cleanliness, self discipline, success, and everything else that is good. If a soul can choose such darkness even for a moment, what will happen between now and eternity to keep him from shooting himself in the foot forever?

My theory is posted at saltshaker.us/Hell-Fire

I am driven to this by “for ever and ever”. I came to this bulletin board looking for perspectives of this but did not find it. Please contact me, if you are willing, at DaveLeach (at) Saltshaker.US.

Hi Dave. I think the Biblical descriptions of Hell (and Hades) are metaphorical - NOT literal. Actually, the metaphorical position is fully explored in Four Views on Hell. It’s a position I fully agree with - as a starting point.

I had to address the forever part on this forum, in regards to Satan being tormented forever and ever at Satan and Revelations.

I like to embrace the Inclusivist and the Purgatorial Conditionalist positions. It’s better addressed in a Universal Restorationist / Conditionalist hybrid position. It’s best described or expanded on at Is Hell Eternal Punishment, Eternal Death or Disciplinary Restoration?. The author talks about a holding place. A lower and an upper part of Hades. Before being thrown into the Lake of Fire (which he and I, view as the Eastern Orthodox position - being in the presence of God).

And here is an article sentence I like:

Of course, one solution to the problem of universalism and free will, is a position of hard theological determinism. Someone has actually proposed such a theory - on this forum. I call it “Plan 9 from the Matrix”, based upon the movie “Plan 9 from Outer Space” by Ed Wood and the Matrix movie trilogy. But I proposed a theory ** just as sound**, at P-Zombies and Universalism .

And in both theories, there’s probably more that’s wrong, then there is - in the Wizard of Oz movie:

or

youtube.com/watch?v=Wka3yoC-cLA

Oh come on Randy. The wizard of Oz is one of my favorite movies. Loved it since I was a kid.

I love it to, St. Micheal. But that doesn’t mean it doesn’t contain filming inconsistencies. But to be fair, the same can be said for most films.

In fact, click on the link youtube.com/watch?v=Wka3yoC-cLA. YouTube will display on the right side, other films where errors are talked about (i.e. Titanic and Cinderella).

Okay Randy. I’ll check it. My movies don’t have to be perfect though.

Titanic is my favorite movie! I cried and cried after watching that.

How about my top TWO scriptures that show that Jesus will save all people? They work in tandem as a one-two punch:

“The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.” (John 3:35)

and

“This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” (John 6:39)

Unfortunately, those who say they believe in Hell come along and asterisk these verses to death:

‘When Christ says that the Father has given all things into His hand, He means that the Father has given some things into His hand. In biblical language, “all” = “some”. And when Christ said that He would lose nothing, He meant that He would lose something, and (in fact) a lot of somethings. In biblical language, “nothing” = “a lot of somethings”. We can explicate these verses as: “The Father loves the Son, and has given some things into His hand…This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose quite a few somethings, but should raise the somethings I don’t lose at the last day.” Just remember that “all” means “some” and “nothing” means “something”, and you’ll be OK. Aren’t you glad we’re here to explain the Bible to you? You might end up being a universalist if it wasn’t for us!’

Well…we need to be careful in portraying the position of those people as untenable. For there ARE passages where “all” clearly denotes “some” or “many.” For example:

(Mark 1:33 AV) And all the city was gathered together at the door.

So it seems that SOMETIMES “all” IS simply used for emphasis.

You’re certainly right on that point, Paidion.

The problem is when those who say they believe in Hell think that they can interpret “all” to mean “some” whensoever they like. It will not do to interpret “all” as “some” when Christ is speaking of high and exalted matters, nor when Paul is speaking in precise theological terms. These are completely different circumstances than the colloquial saying, “All the city was gathered”. Even common sense regarding everyday language will distinguish between the literal use of “all” in important matters, and the non-literal use of “all” in careless speech:

Literal: “All votes must be counted.” (Who would dare to say that this really means “Some votes must be counted”? Surely Christ’s salvation of His creation is of more import than who is to be the next school board member?)

Non-literal: “All Italians like pasta.” (No comment required.)

I agree, Geoffrey. Good points!

God created man and gave man free will. It would seem to me that he wishes for us to make a decision to be with him, out of our own free will.
Granted you could take this all as conjecture, however when you remove the stigma of The lake of fire being a place where people suffer but do not die something changes. Suddenly God killing off the people who do not wish to do Gods will for them seems like a reasonable solution, it will be sad and painful, but for a moment, hen it will be over, and God and those who wish to do his will can mourn for a time, and then move on into eternity free from sin and death forever! How glorious!

Revelation 20:14-15
The lake of fire is the second death.
Those whose name was not written in the book of life were thrown into the lake of fire.

I encourage you to study Revelation 20 closely.
If you read the sections of Revelation regarding the second death and Satans punishment, you see that eternal hellfire is only reserved for Satan, the Beast, and the False Prophet, their torment shall last forever. When he speaks of the people who are not found in the book of life, they are thrown into the lake of fire, this is the second death. Not implying that they suffer forever, but that they die, and this punishment is eternal… as in they are eternally dead/not conscious.

Regarding God getting what he wants, I believe that in his wisdom, he sees that the best way to achieve his will is to alow us to choose what we want, a life of sin or without sin. Those who love sin do not forward Gods will and therefore must be eliminated.

Regardless of how you look at it, you as a universalist must give me an explanation as to why God would reveal this to us in Revelation about the book of life if all peoples names were found in it! That would mean that nobody gets thrown into the lake of fire therefore making the verse null and void.

Eternal suffering for men makes no sense, and I could not go on in heaven gladly knowing that people I know and loved are suffering all along, I do suppose that after some time I could move on if they were simply dead and unconcious.

So I’m new to this site. I have been struggling for a long long time with connecting a God that loves me with the God of war and of eternal hell fire. This has been going on since my parents passed away five years ago and I started questioning everything and fell into a really horrible depression. So my first question is in the verse that talks about the lost sheep and leaving the 99 and going after the one till it’s found why is the statement because he wishes none to perish even an issue if some aren’t going to perish? Believe me I want everyone to be saved as much as anyone else. Because if I don’t try to convince myself of that I don’t have much hope for myself or a lot of people I love.

Well it’s God’s will that everyone be saved and come into a knowledge of the truth, and so God being the Creator of everything has the power and the moral right to persuade people to salvation, so why wouldn’t that happen? What do you think, why wouldn’t that happen?

Well i’m not sure why that wouldn’t happen unless it has something to do with free will. Do you think there are some people that would be so against God that they would choose not to be in eternity with him? I can’t imagine that. I think the issue I have is with forgiveness. I know people say that God’s forgiveness is great and I try to understand his grace but it’s hard for me. The Bible confuses me because to me it seems to preach forgiveness but then speaks about Gods wrath and hell fire. So which is it? I don’t know. I have been reading a website the last couple of years called Tentmaker.org and it lifts my spirit. When my father passed away I worried about him because he was an alcoholic and claimed to not believe. So I thought I’ve got to make some changes and try to be a better Christian so I started reading my Bible and it didn’t help. I started reading scriptures like how narrow the way is and sinning after having the full knowledge of salivation that there is no more forgiveness. So I believed as a child and I’ve made a lot of mistakes in my life so I felt very unsure of my salvation after that. So then I started searching online to try to get a greater picture of Gods love and everything I came across puts stipulations on his love. Then I finally ran into this concept of universal salvation and I hope so much that it’s true but it’s so hard to believe because all my life salvation has been conditional on our part.

Also I have a son that has studied the Bible in-depth and he very much believes in an eternal hell. And in my opinion he’s very smart. I’m not saying he’s right but he makes some good points proving scriptures. I love my son very much and I feel sorry for him in a way because I know the thought of eternal hell scares him to however he is definitely more confident in his salvation then I am. But sometimes he’ll say he doesn’t feel like he’s doing enough for God. So he seems to have a works mentality however he says he knows that works aren’t going to get you to heaven only believing. And he loves God very much. God has done some major work in my son. It has been incredible to watch.

It’s really not so much a matter of intelligence , it’s more like realizing and accepting the bible is a translation of ancient Greek and Hebrew manuscripts and how about a half dozen words are translated into english. Words like “aionios” traditionally translated as “eternal” but much more likely refer to “pertaining to an age” or “hades” translated as “hell” but more likely means “grave” or something akin to that. I suggest you check out “The Three Views of Hell” at Thenarrowpath.com and "bibletruths.com by L.Ray Smith