It would seem some of the various categorising of the nuanced words being used is blurring the conversation. As I understand it… humanity has been (past established event) reconciled TO God BY God with regards to “the forgiveness of sin” i.e., the offense of the sin CONDITION being cancelled, as per Jn 1:29b that lay against man. IOW… Jesus PUT THIS AWAY, as per Heb 9:26.

HOWEVER, with regards to the place or position of being “righteous before God”… this was the position of being vindicated (proved to the right in Christ) awarded to those who through covenant faithfulness and in service to God outworked to perfection their calling “unto the day of Jesus Christ”… the calling to which THEY had been elected.

Thus having to go through some apparent process to attain a degree of righteousness that satisfies a qualifying regime that finally allows one entrance into heaven postmortem would seem to ‘go BEYOND what is written’… something even Paul guards against doing (1Cor 4:6b NKJV).

IOW, importantly put… the call to righteousness is upon those claiming service to God, because to whom much is given (incredible blessing) much is required.

First of all, I said what I said in the way I stated it to make a point. Christ did indeed take away our sin at the cross, and I will believe this and stand by it. And the problem is, as I see it, is that your insistence about our necessity to be repentant is contrary to the love of God and His willingness to do what had to be done to eradicate the sin condition. You say that the salvation process is a life long process, and I can empathize with your position, but I do not agree with it.

You said:

This is the very mentality that has permeated throughout human history, that somehow the legalism of the old testament is still in effect. [size=150]WE NEED TO DO OUR PART OR CHRIST"S DEATH MEANS NOTHING.[/size]It is a sad and dangerous path that continues in your vein of thought. Having said that, there is much wisdom in the understanding that our lives, and the lives around us, will be changed when we realize what Christ has accomplished, both in our personal lives and in humanity in general. Our repentance comes from that understanding, from that work of grace in our life, and thus Christ is totally glorified and we have realized we are a new creation.

We can exchange proof text’s all day but as Bob Wilson, one for the main founders of this very site has pointed out in his papers he has posted here evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=58 that we can always look at things in many different ways. Good luck on your position, but I will maintain the total, actual, unconditional saving work of Christ.

Peace.

I remember having the same conversation - in another thread.

https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-4161e9231033aa335aca697a3ef0c4e2?convert_to_webp=true

When Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness everyone who focused on it was healed of the serpent sting. “Looking unto Jesus the Author and the Finisher of our faith.”

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. See the crucified Christ and be raised to newness of life- all made new in love, out of which righteousness flows.

He is not (imo) the Author in the sense of beliefs written down for us . He is the Author in that once the incorruptible seed of the Logos is planted in our hearts it is able to save our souls. It is the Life that comes out of that seed like a Vine. Like a Fountain or a Well.

For through the Law I died to the Law so that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ, and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God. For if righteousness comes through the Law, Christ died for nothing.”…

The binding of A New Life in Christ with our heart begins at conception… “The word implanted which is able to save your soul”.

The salvation of the soul is not(as we all kno, and Paidon recently posted) about escaping “hell”. It is about being transformed into the image of Christ, from within, by grace, working through faith, which works by love". “Be saved from this perverse generation”(Acts 2:40)

“If your eye is single your whole body is full of light”. The eye is the light of the soul.

All we have to do is focus. Look into the right mirrors. Remember we see a dead man(James mirror) and a livng man(pauls mirror 2 Cor 3:16-18)

If we focus on Him, the single eye becomes the source of the well of life, light and love- which is righteousness…having nothing to do anymore with the law. It is Jesus inside, the radiance of the Father’s glory radiating, the exact representation of His nature transforming from the heart out.

“A double minded man is unstable in all his ways, let not that man think he will receive anything from the Lord”

Two wells, two tongues, two minds- Babylon/Babel = “confusion by mixture” = wood hay and stubble. Unrighteousness masquerading as righteousness.

The righteousness of Christ flows through fellowship with Him, not by law(because the dead man was under law) but through love, light and life…deposited in the believer because of his faith being reckoned unto him as righteousness, WHICH ALLOWS THE SEED TO BE PLANTED, which becomes the well, the vine, the leaven, the fountain, the source. Seeing Christ crucified as the seed/core/hope and Christ raised as the promise of restoration/resurrection.

A believer is not righteous because he loves so much as the love of Christ in Him produces love- “partakers of the divine nature.”

Planted in death, raised in newness of life, which-in my opinion, is the only all encompassing definition of righteousness. So I have died. Christ lives in me. The life I live in the flesh I live by the faith of the son of God- the seed, the Logos, the word implanted- Christ in me, the hope of glory(the mystery). If I abide in the vine righteousness is the sap of the leaves and the fruit. If I do not abide I wither as a branch and am cut-off and gathered up and men and thrown into the fire(wood hay stubble-garbage). Carried back to Egypt. Placed again under servitude(trampled under the feet of men)

Unless you return to your first love I will remove your Lampstand from its place.

Faith alone has its unshakable reward, all received in the incorruptible seed…

Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness, through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.

But the ground that receives it determines the fruit that comes of it, some 30, some 60, some 100-fold…

5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, 6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness, 7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love. 8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.(James’ mirror) 10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

An abundant entrance is that newness of life that is the manifestation of the kingdom of God. Gold silver and precious stone.

Sowing and reaping and righteousness.

If we sow to the Spirit we reap life.

If we sow to the flesh we reap corruption.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus."

The righteousness of God is planted in us when we see Christ crucified(Savior) and believe He is the resurrected (Lord).

JESUS MUST BE SAVIOR BEFORE HE IS LORD(Phil 2)

Imputed righteousness because we are one blood “in Christ”.

Imparted righteousness “Christ lives in me.”

“the mystery of the gospel” is “Christ in you the hope of glory” (MANIFEST RIGHTEOUSNESS)

If we sow to the flesh we do not lose imputed righteousness, we are still “one blood”, but we reap corruption, sort of like the prodigal son, who was his Father’s beloved son even as he departed towards debauchery.

When He came to His senses he was immediately and joyfully restored to the “privileges of the inheritance”. He had squandered the benefits of the inheritance until he was in servitude as one who had never been an inheritor.

“He who lacks these qualities has forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins”

“A wise slave will receive an inheritance over a foolish son”(proverbs somewhere)

“A son while he is a child, is no different than a slave and is kept under tutors until the appointed time” (Galatians somewhere)

One could say the prodigal, who did not abide in the Vine, withered as a branch and was cut off. The salt had lost its savor and was “cast out and trodden under the feet of men”.

His "imparted righteousness " was hidden under a bushel.

His imputed righteousness awaited his his coming to his senses and was manifest before he had time to do anything, like function as a responsible son- because the Father sees the secrets of the heart and recognized his broken and contrite heart.

“Purge me with hyssop and I will be clean, wash me and I will be whiter than snow”

Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.

  13Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
        And sinners will be converted to You.

An immature(babe/carnal) believer is an inheritor but is not capable of understanding the gifts or responsibilities of the inheritance as paul says, in 1 Cor 3 a carnal believer walks as if he were a mere(unregenerated) man. Born of the spirit, but walking by the natural perceptions and subject to deception and imprisonment- but still of the one blood “Receive a brother who is weak in the faith but not unto doubtful disputations”- or in other words, love him but don’t argue with him because the carnal mind is enmity towards God and cannot receive the things of God- it is foolishness to them.

But they are still of the one blood- inheritors being kept under tutors(law bound thoughts, vain imaginations) until Christ “is formed” in them again.

“My children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you.”

Here is a short message I received today that blessed me, and enhances this discussion:

I should note that in contrast to Mr. Prince, and in line with my view that God is nonviolent, I subscribe to the “Christus Victor” theory of the Atonement. Although the Penal Substitution Theory is more commonly held, the idea of Christus Victor seems to be that it was actually Satan’s wrath being poured out on Christ at the cross, not God’s. (Because, after all, “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them.” 2 Cor. 5:19.

Christus Victor is related to the Ransom Theory, with the idea that “redeeming" means "buying back.” Satan offered all the kingdoms of the world to Jesus, “in an instant” (Lk 4:5)–without Jesus contradicting his right to do so at that time.

You may recall the discussion of a property deed scroll in Jeremiah 32. That passage helps our understanding of how a kinsman could buy back land by paying the purchase price. The sealed book could then be delivered to the original owner, or the heir. The heir could, at his convenience, break the seals, and, with the open scroll as his authority, take possession of the land—by force, if necessary.

So, as to the Second Coming, the process of officially evicting Satan begins when the Lamb starts breaking those seals on the title deed (Rev. 6).

Blessings.

1 Pet 3.7: Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

In my churches’ bible study group, we have had to deal with this a few times, especially from a Church of Christ position. And the Idea of where Paul was coming from. (women not even able to speak in the congregation)

Just to clarify, we are a non denominational church with some folks coming from other backgrounds!

All I advocate is that there is a Holy Spirit and that the Gospels and epistles are historical, cultural documents. I am not saying that they are in any way diminished, but that paradigm and context be appreciated.

I understand. It’s true also that the word ‘cultural’, as you know, carries significant baggage with it - and I guess here we simply have to use our best judgment as to what is culturally-shaped and what is inspired? It’s a toughie.

Basically I was responding to Joseph Prince, above, who disagrees with this:
“Some people think that if they were more “right” with God, then He would hear their prayers. For example, they sometimes believe that if they had not quarreled with their wives or had those bad thoughts earlier in the day, then God would answer their prayers.”

Well the apostle does imply that not all prayers are received by God equally.

edited to make more inscrutable

Edited. Sorry, it was clear to me at the time but not on re-reading.

DaveB said:

I may not even be responding to your post, so forgive me if I am trampling on what you said

There is a cultural significance to the thing we call the Bible. And there is a historical/date significance . So my contention is that how we deal with women in our current congregations should be predicated on that idea… If we take that one verse of Paul’s at it’s literal value, we would and could possibly be wiping away a whole group of possible proclaiming Saints?

Just a thought

I’m pretty sure I agree with what you’re saying.

Yepper

The real question is: Are the hindrances from God’s side, or from man’s side? Is God putting up barriers, or is man putting up the barriers (with Satan’s encouragement)?

My understanding is that the “your prayers” in 1 Peter 3:7 is a genitive plural, meaning “you all’s prayers”—the prayers of the couple.

And although we have this promise:

“Again, I assure you: If two of you on earth agree about any matter that you pray for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven.” Mt 18:19,

we also have this condition:

*“Dear friends, if our conscience doesn’t condemn us, we have confidence before God.” *1 John 3:21.

(This same conditional idea can be seen here:
James 5:16 “Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.” Christians are exhorted by their brethren: “Get right with God!” But we are already right with God. We are the righteousness of God in Christ. 2 Cor. 5:21. But we do need to get right with other people.)

Sin is not a problem for God: “God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.” 2 Cor. 5:19

But sin can still be a problem for us. God is not the legalist, Satan is. The devil still accuses us and condemns us and attacks us—as we open the door to him. But these are not things that* God *does.

Look, many people think that our sin separates us from God, because supposedly God is so scrupulously offended, so legalistic, that He can’t even LOOK at sin, à la Habakkuk 1:13:

“Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrongdoing.”

But note that earlier Habakkuk has said, “Why do you tolerate wrongdoing?” (1:3) and then down in 1:13 he’s now saying, “you *cannot *tolerate wrongdoing.”

Huh? You can tolerate? Or cannot tolerate?

After all, God permanently lives in us, and will never leave us nor forsake us. Is He then blind to our sins? *** Is He not* lovingly omnipresent throughout this sinning world?**

When Jesus was hanging on that cross, when he cried out, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” --did God really turn His back on His Son, because he had become sin for us? I say, no, never! Our compassionate, loving heavenly Daddy was, is, and always will be, stretching out open hands to every single person, regardless of how sinful they may be.

Certainly, in his humanity, Jesus may have felt cut off from his Father, BUT he firmly chose to quote the first line of Psalm 22. (Why didn’t he quote the entire psalm? Well, probably because he was suffocating to death.)

But Jesus knew that [size=130]Psalm 22[/size] is a psalm of VICTORY. Sure, the prophet David was initially describing the crucifixion, in great detail, but then **look how it ends: the glorious joy of Jesus! **:

Note: I just found online this most excellent, brief message on Habakkuk 1:13. This “grace teacher,” Steve McVey, makes the point better than I ever could:

Joseph Prince knows there is still sin; we still sin. But,

[size=130]Sin has never been a problem to God because He’s offended, but because[/size] it blocks His love to us!

Blessings.

Sure, I get that. Still, one way or the other, prayers are hindered under those circumstances.

I’m glad we agree

When a husband sins against his wife, the Holy Spirit will be working to convince him to seek his wife’s forgiveness, so that their fellowship, including prayer together, is not broken through human resentment or human unforgiveness; we are not to give the devil a foothold.

But I don’t believe God has ever had any resentment or unforgiveness against anyone:
“Love keeps no record of wrongs” (1 Cor 13:5)—whether it gets an apology or not.

(Don’t theological disagreements seem to usually arise from clashing opinions about God’s true nature?)

Hermano - btw, your mention of Christus Victor reminded me to do some reading on it, as I am a ‘low-information’ person on that theory. I found a cheap download for Kindle, bu Aulen. Read about 1/3 of it so far. Very good.

I think you’re right on with that. Most ‘heresies’ (as defined by those who have named themselves 'orthodox) have been centered on the theory of the “two natures” or “the trinity”; but the deepest clashes are on the character of Yahweh - God the Father.

Those who weigh the OT as equal to the NT, and then try to deduce God’s character, are always going to run into insuperable problems. OTOH, taking a basic hermeneutical principle as a guide, many problems are answered, or at least become very clear.

Such as:
“Whatever doctrines seem to us to be clearly taught in the Scriptures; we receive without reserve or exception. We do not, however, attach equal importance to all the books in this collection. Our religion, we believe, lies chiefly in the New Testament. The dispensation of Moses, compared with that of Jesus, we consider as adapted to the childhood of the human race, a preparation for a nobler system, and chiefly useful now as serving to confirm and illustrate the Christian Scriptures. Jesus Christ is the only master of Christians, and whatever he taught, either during his personal ministry, or by his inspired Apostles, we regard as of divine authority, and profess to make the rule of our lives.” - Channing (of course )

-God is love. 1 John 4:8, 16.
-Love keeps no record of wrongs. 1 Cor. 13:5.

As for keeping records of wrongs, and sending curses: we get blessings from God, but accusations and curses come from Satan. Through men’s sins, he penetrates God’s hedge of protection at every opportunity.

I believe that, with help from an invisible enemy he didn’t recognize or understand, Moses sometimes embellished and distorted what he was hearing from God. However, God has disarmed legalist accuser Satan by nailing his added curses to the cross:

Regarding Moses’ embellishments and filtering of the Word of God, Richard Murray says:

Specifically concerning the Ten Commandments being distorted through Moses, consider this “what if?” email to me from Richard Murray:

Blessings.