What is justification and why is it necessary?

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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:34 am

LLC wrote:It depends on what kind of salvation one is talking about. To me, the bible has nothing to do with the afterlife. It is about finding God on earth, and Him dwelling amongst us. What good is this life if we don't have that?


Well, I'm NOT so far removed - from that idea. Where I embrace the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic position of Theosis (i.e. http://bit.ly/2DcDr3C)... the Franciscan view of contemplation (i.e. https://cac.org/)... and TV evangelist, Joel Osteen's view - of expecting good things from God. :D

Now if I can just figure out...how to keep the zombies away...during the tribulation and Zombie Apocalypse...I'm good to go. :)

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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby davo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:25 am

Paidion wrote:Well Davo, I guess it's a comforting thought to believe that God has counted you as righteous whether you are righteous or not.

If God counts someone righteous they ARE righteous, period, regardless of your disbelief — there is NONE of YOUR performance caveat of… “whether you are righteous or not” to it!

Paidion wrote:That part of your belief is similar to that of Fundamentalists and many evangelicals. They think they'll go to heaven at death if they "accepted Christ as their personal Saviour" or "trusted in His atoning work on the cross" (what must be done varies among them; there are several other formulae as well). They say their "salvation" (being saved from hell) has nothing to do with their "works" (how they live). For when God looks at them, He doesn't see their sin but Christ's righteousness. This is a grave error.

Just as I expected… absolutely NOTHING relevant in answer to the unmissable, unmistakably CLEAR and straightforward texts of Gen 15:5; Rom 4:2-3. Like so many texts before, are these to be annexed and excised to the Paidion chopping-block of awkward and inconvenient texts because they run a hole right through the middle of your “righteousification” doctrine? For those following, here they are again…
Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
Rom 4:2-3 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

    Belief + Accounted = put INTO right-standing… God’s equation NOT man’s.

Paidion wrote:Paul taught that whether we receive glory and honour and immortality from God OR receive God's wrath—affliction and anguish, depends upon whether we live lives of righteousness or whether we practice evil.

As highlighted above… this is where you get tricky in slipping words into supposed texts (to give an air of authority or authenticity) that actually are NOT there. Rom 2:6-10 is simply about the consequences of DOING good or evil… blessed or dire. But Paul was NOT TEACHING YOUR ‘lifelong righteousification’ doctrine, or as you like to claim… “…the position that I described and which Paul took…” — FALSE!

Paidion wrote:Well... that is God's ultimate aim, but as I explained to Davo, salvation is a life-long process of purification that will some day be complete.

THAT hasn’t been what you’ve been saying at all BUT rather… *the lifelong process of righteousness* — there’s a mile of difference between ‘righteousness’ and that of ‘salvation’. What IS a lifelong process is *SANCITIFICATION* for the believer… big difference.

    In the mosaic of the Old Covenant… Israel as a nation WAS redeemed. Of those redeemed certain ones were ‘called’ — dedicated and sanctified — the Aaronic priesthood. This priesthood SERVED before God and to the rest of the redeemed.

    In the big picture of the New Covenant… Humanity HAS been reconciled. Of those reconciled certain ones can be ‘called’ — dedicated and sanctified — the priesthood of Believers. This priesthood SERVES before God and to the rest of the reconciled.
ALL that you have been banging on about could be better explained as… *the lifelong process of the sanctification of believers* who hopefully work the works of righteousness, but not TOWARD your GOAL of achieving final “righteousification”. NO… such works of righteous service are toward God and others.

NOT everybody in Israel was “called” to serve and yet everyone was redeemed. NOT everybody in humanity is called to serve and yet everyone has been reconciled. Jesus said it best…
Mt 22:14For many are called, but few are chosen.

The OT account of Gideon is a prime example of this principle in play. Israel was God’s redeemed people AND YET out of her certain ones were called for a redemptive task of deliverance. This entailed the whittling down and choosing of the called ones to a certain refined number. Now, NONE of those REJECTED from that redemptive task became thereby evil, lost or reprobates, NO — they were simply not chosen to that specific redemptive calling. Thus… “many are called, but few are chosen”.

The point being… ?? They weren’t TRYING to become something — they understood already who they were, quite apart from their works.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby LLC » Wed Jan 17, 2018 10:01 am

davo wrote:Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.


Rom 4:2-3 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Belief + Accounted = put INTO right-standing… God’s equation NOT man’s.


Davo, what we are talking about is justification ( shown to be righteous). Again, as James 2:21 says "Was not Abraham our father justified(shown to be righteous) when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?" Belief alone doesn't cut it. I can believe that it's morally wrong to steal. However, if I'm out stealing, I'm not in right standing with God. James 2:14 says this: "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby LLC » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:27 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:LLC wrote:It depends on what kind of salvation one is talking about. To me, the bible has nothing to do with the afterlife. It is about finding God on earth, and Him dwelling amongst us. What good is this life if we don't have that?


Well, I'm NOT so far removed - from that idea.


HFPZ, I think many today worry too much about the afterlife. I believe as it is said, "There are some fates worse than death." I believe life on earth without God among us or God with us would be just that. I can't imagine living as a slave, living in the days of the inquisitions,or during the Salem witch trials, being crucified on a cross, or thrown into a dungeon to be eaten alive by rats. Such things are unthinkable to me, and I thank God everyday for men and women like Jesus, who stand and live in the truth of God.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:30 am

OTOH, just as an aside, I think it is very true that what we think of our future eternity DOES affect how we live now.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:04 pm

DaveB said
"Redemptionism: The doctrine that all of humanity was redeemed (i.e., saved, sanctified) through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and asserting that the redemption of all was completed and concluded in his resurrection."

There are some very plain teachings in the NT that blow that doctrine to smithereens. However, the tactic of avoiding those teachings by claiming they do not apply to us does eliminate the smithereening: but at what cost ? And what is the basis of that tactic?


I would say the cost is that it turns many Christians ravenous haters of this demonic heresy :lol: So it is not something to bring up at the local church potluck if you are looking to get invited back :lol: :lol: Many Christians like the idea of hell. :o :shock:

The tactic is simply trying to find a truth one can live with. Nothing more, nothing less. We are all doing it here.

How did the scope-o-bottommy go? :roll: Is all O K?
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:16 pm

'Scope went fine, no probs, all good - until I got home. Felt fine for one hour, and for the past 4 hours been getting steadily sicker. Can you believe that?? I don't get sick, but here we go. Picked up something at the clinic I reckon.
We should never leave our own homes for any reason.. :lol:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:32 pm

DaveB wrote:'Scope went fine, no probs, all good - until I got home. Felt fine for one hour, and for the past 4 hours been getting steadily sicker. Can you believe that?? I don't get sick, but here we go. Picked up something at the clinic I reckon.
We should never leave our own homes for any reason.. :lol:


Well, Dave - if you lived here:

    In the coldest village on earth, eyelashes freeze, dinner is frozen and temperatures sink to -88F http://bit.ly/2B9dMqw
Any bugs or virus will probably freeze to death. :lol:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:34 pm

Yeah, about 5 minutes after I did! :lol:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby qaz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:46 pm

Paidion:
No. We are acceptable to God right now, if we have begun the process of salvation and persist in it. We may sometimes slip up and do wrong, but we can repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning what we did, and get right back on track again. The word translated as "justify" means "rendered righteous." If we are coöperating with God's enabling grace to help us become righteous we are acceptable to God and are BEING rendered righteous—a process that will some day be completed.


If being "acceptable to God" is not the same thing as being justified, why did you bring it up in response to what I posted? I was asking questions about justification. You responded by talking about something, that, according to you, is different from justification. That's a straw man. My questions on justification remain unanswered.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Paidion » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:38 pm

Dave B wrote:Redemptionism: The doctrine that all of humanity was redeemed (i.e., saved, sanctified) through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ and asserting that the redemption of all was completed and concluded in his resurrection."

There are some very plain teachings in the NT that blow that doctrine to smithereens. However, the tactic of avoiding those teachings by claiming they do not apply to us does eliminate the smithereening: but at what cost ? And what is the basis of that tactic?

Especially - all of humanity was SANCTIFIED by the death and resurrection of Jesus? Sanctification is a process, not a gift, and it is our high privilege to work out our salvation.

Work out our salvation - it actually says that in the NT post-resurrection. We are not saved by our 'works' - I don't know anyone who believes that - but certainly our call is to life-long faithfulness - stemming from God's faithfulness - and as Paul said "seeking glory and honor etc." through well-doing.

I'm still working on understanding. Maybe if I wasn't so deep into Romans right now this would not be pushing any buttons; but I am, and feeling the weight and wisdom of Paul, I think there are some real misunderstandings here. However, if the scriptures are not on the playing field because they are 'not for us', we have no chance of convincing each other.

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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby qaz » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:45 pm

I haven't seen anyone explain how Jesus's death and resurrection plays into our justification if works are essential to a person being justified.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby LLC » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:47 pm

DaveB wrote:OTOH, just as an aside, I think it is very true that what we think of our future eternity DOES affect how we live now.


Dave, Then maybe the doctrine of hell isn't such a bad idea after all! :lol:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:54 pm

:!:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby davo » Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:30 pm

LLC wrote:
davo wrote:Gen 15:6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.


Rom 4:2-3 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Belief + Accounted = put INTO right-standing… God’s equation NOT man’s.


Davo, what we are talking about is justification ( shown to be righteous).

Really… fancy that :?: Do you think you could possibly notify the editors of ALL these translations HERE and HERE and let them know ALL their expert Hebrew/Greek scholars got their translations so horribly wrong… but now you’ve finally solved their ineptitude. :roll:

Both ‘justified’ and ‘righteous’ are indeed indelibly linked and yet very specific words, which is why Paul chooses them wisely and carefully in the above passage:

    <ἐδικαιώθη> edikaiōthē = justifiedto declare, render or pronounce, one to be just, righteous.
    <δικαιοσύνην> dikaiosynēn = righteousnessthe state or condition of him who is acceptable to God.
Both Paul and James agree (Jas 2:23)… God enunciated the Gentile Abram to be “justifiedBECAUSE OF his “belief” — thereby being imputed with or into (εἰς) righteousness. His subsequentworksFOLLOWING simply confirming this, i.e., evidencing this reality — thus the two working together (Jas 2:22).

LLC wrote:Again, as James 2:21 says "Was not Abraham our father justified(shown to be righteous) when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?" Belief alone doesn't cut it.

YES I agree… and yet STILL you MISS the point in quoting this. THIS came LONG after God’s initial DECLARATION of righteousness. James’ point here is “actions speak louder than words” i.e., “your words are fine and dandy but let me show you real belief actioned in my deeds” — James understood the ORDER of things (what I’m trying to explain). He wasn’t arguing that they weren’t righteous, NO, his point was — righteousness is most effectual IN TERMS OF OTHERS (NOT in terms of acceptance with God) in that they receive the benefits of our faith via our works.

“Works” do not *make* anyone righteous, rather they demonstrate the fact that we *are* righteous, i.e., as James shows… *faith works together with works* — they are NOT in competition or contradiction but are meant to be complimentary.

LLC wrote:James 2:14 says this: "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?"

This of course is a rhetorical question… “works” help mature one’s faith (vs. 22 <ἐτελειώθη> eteleiōē) and by so doing bring their own healing (vs. 14 save = <σῶσαι> sōsai).
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby LLC » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:26 am

davo wrote:<ἐδικαιώθη> edikaiōthē = justified — to declare, render or pronounce, one to be just, righteous.


Davo , I see you want to haggle over words. I stated that justified = shown to be. As you say, justify means to declare, or pronounce.
Declare-reveal, cause or allow to be seen, express, make manifest, broadcast, air, publicize, make publicly known.

It seems to me that Paul and James did not meet eye to eye on this.

James says Abraham was JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, Paul seems to making the case otherwise. By the definitions above, one cannot possibly be justified( declared, revealed, make publicly known, or shown) to be righteous unless it is by works.

Unless a person is stone cold dead( or a zombie), he/she is "working" one way or the other, either doing something good or doing something not so good.
The Bible says, every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.
James also has this to say: James 2:13 'Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the Law that gives freedom, for judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful.
Proverbs 21:13 "He who shuts his ear to the cry of the poor will also cry himself and not be answered."
Luke 6:37 Do not judge, and you will not be judged. do not condemn, and you will not be condemned,. Forgive and you will be forgiven."
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:35 am

LLC wrote:
Unless a person is stone cold dead( or a zombie), he/she is "working" one way or the other, either doing something good or doing something not so good.


I think it is debatable...from both a scientific and philosophical perspective...whether a zombie, is " working" - or not.

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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby LLC » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:42 am

HFPZ, I put that insertion in especially for you. I figured you'd get a kick out of it. :lol:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:23 am

LLC wrote:HFPZ, I put that insertion in especially for you. I figured you'd get a kick out of it. :lol:


Yes, I realize that. But it does raise some deep, philosophical and theological questions.

    Let's take the TV shows Fear the Walking Dead, The Walking Dead, and Z Nation. Now the humans might live, in a fortified prison. But they have zombies outside the fence - guarding the place. Or someone might direct a sound, to lead a swarm of zombies - into an enemy complex. Technically, the zombies are "working".
    Or a black magic magician in Haiti allegedly uses black magic - to create a zombie. And they have them work in the fields - planting sugar cane. The Zombie is working.

Now let's contract that example - with this.

    The Calvinist would say some people, are predestined to work for God. Maybe they are preachers, etc. How does this differ, from the zombie work examples given?
    Or in the Protestant view. Someone becomes "born again". Now God waves a magic wand...And they are NOW justified and sanctified. Kind of like the zombies - right? No?

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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Paidion » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:00 am

Hi qaz, you wrote:I haven't seen anyone explain how Jesus's death and resurrection plays into our justification if works are essential to a person being justified.


I truly believe that I did explain it, qaz.

To be rendered righteous, which is a life-long process, we need something more than self-effort. Self-effort may avail to some extent, but our personal desires and choices are too much for it. For example, we may wish to seek vengeance against that person who has done us wrong, and actually carry out that vengeance in spite of the fact that Jesus asks us NOT to seek vengeance but to do good to those who wrong us. However Jesus' death and resurrection made the enabling grace of God available to us so that we can rise above our fallen desires and succeed in doing right. We appropriate this enabling grace by faith.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

How do we appropriate this enabling grace? We appropriate it through faith. Jesus died to provide this enabling grace, and by trusting Him to do so, it becomes a reality in our lives.

Many think “δικαιοσυνη,” The Greek word translated as “justification” to mean “being counted as righteous,” whether we are righteous or not. But the word often means “being made righteous.”

Working together [with Him], we entreat you not to accept the grace of God to no purpose. (2 Cor 6:1)

If we try to accept God's grace in our lives without allowing it to purify us, to render us righteous, then we are accepting it to no purpose.

We must coöperate with God's enabling grace. We alone cannot achieve consistent righteousness. And God alone will not cause us to be righteous. He respects our ability to choose too much for that. We must coöperate with God's enabling grace.

This coöperation with God is known as “synergy.” This English word comes from the Greek word for “working together.” (συνεργουντες)

A particular group of denominations push “monergy.” This is the idea God did all the work concerning our righteousness, that we have no part in it at all. No wonder so many fall away, thinking that what they choose to do has no bearing on their standing with God.

However, I think the apostle Paul had it right. Concerning deliverance from wrongdoing, we need to work together with God, and so not accept the grace of God to no purpose.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Cindy Skillman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:07 pm

It's not that we have to earn our salvation. It's that in order to be free from sin, we actually have to be FREE from sin. I'm not saying anyone is going to achieve that in this life aside from Jesus, but it's our duty to present our members as instruments of righteousness unto God, not as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin. If we do the latter, we're the slaves/employees/servants or whatever of SIN. If the former, we are servants and offspring of God our Father.

God HAS saved us (in Jesus Christ) from our sins. We need to cooperate in the ongoing manifestation/out-working of this salvation as we are taught of the Holy Spirit. "All these who are being led by the Spirit of God, these and none but these are the (mature) sons of God." So long as we are little children, we are still GOD's little children--but let's at least aspire to grow up and become His mature daughters and sons, qualified to represent the family of God to the world. I'm not really certain that the "gracers" and the "worksers" in this thread would truly disagree with one another if we understood one another. The grace enables us to mature into the works, and the works show the fruits of the working out of grace. We do not "go to heaven" as spoiled bratty children still trying to bite our older siblings, making messes we refuse to clean up and grabbing for the best piece of chicken so the other little piggies don't get to it first. That would not BE heaven at all. Not to us, nor to anyone else. This is a journey. As we make the journey into God's grace, we become more and more like Christ. Getting there isn't a reward for becoming perfect in love. Becoming perfect in love IS getting there.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:29 pm

Cindy Skillman wrote: Getting there isn't a reward for becoming perfect in love. Becoming perfect in love IS getting there.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Bob Wilson » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:29 pm

What Paidion (and Cindy) just said!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby qaz » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:39 pm

Paidion:
To be rendered righteous, which is a life-long process, we need something more than self-effort. Self-effort may avail to some extent, but our personal desires and choices are too much for it. For example, we may wish to seek vengeance against that person who has done us wrong, and actually carry out that vengeance in spite of the fact that Jesus asks us NOT to seek vengeance but to do good to those who wrong us. However Jesus' death and resurrection made the enabling grace of God available to us so that we can rise above our fallen desires and succeed in doing right. We appropriate this enabling grace by faith.


So are you claiming it'd be impossible for a person to abstain from vengeance unless Jesus died and resurrected and the person believed it?

Most (if not all) Christians are not perfect people. They still sin. You seem to think that any sin renders a person unrighteous. Does a Christian's status meander between righteous and unrighteous when he sins and repents? If so, righteousness is a transient thing. In which case it's still not clear where Jesus's death and destruction fits in. A person could do a combination of good and bad deeds whether Jesus become incarnate or not, no?
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby davo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:32 pm

qaz wrote:Does a Christian's status meander between righteous and unrighteous when he sins and repents? If so, righteousness is a transient thing.

It would be interesting to know what degree of “life-long coöperation” is to be reached to where the doctrine of “righteousification” finds true righteousness being achieved, and whether such is even or ever possible in this life; which begs the question… if one’s “life-long coöperation” proves inadequate for attaining true righteous, what indication is there that postmortem “coöperation” is likely to have the power to pull the skin off a rice pudding either? I’d suggest like the “righteousification doctrine” itself suggests — zip, zero and zilch.

As much as it is being denied.. this ‘other gospel’ of “righteousification” is not new and nothing other than a works-orientated, performance-based “system” of self-righteousness — albeit being claimed “Working together [with Him]”. :roll:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:45 pm

R.C. Sproul:
"Here we reach the ultimate point of separation between semi-Pelagianism and Augustinianism, between Arminianism and Calvinism, between Rome and the Reformation. Here we discover whether we are utterly dependent on grace for our salvation or if, while still in the flesh, still in bondage to sin, and still dead in sin, we can cooperate with grace in such a way that affects our eternal destiny."

That's another of those 'either-or' fallacious statements centered around the Reformation struggle with 'monergism'.

Either "we are utterly dependent on grace for our salvation"
or
"while still in the flesh, still in bondage to sin, and still dead in sin, we can cooperate with grace in such a way that affects our eternal destiny."

That is a tangle of concepts and does nothing to clarify what the issue is.
The code words are 'utterly dependent' 'grace' 'salvation' 'still in the flesh' 'dead in sin' 'cooperate'. The way they are arranged stacks the deck.
Both sides would say that yes, we are 'utterly dependent'.
Both would say they believe in 'grace'
And both would agree that someone dead in sin cannot lift themselves into rightness with God.

But still there is disagreement, because the connotations of the code words are derived from an entirely different background theology.
It's why we talk past one another so often - even our beloved religious terms are context sensitive - in the above case, the same word can means different things against a when placed in front of a different theological underpinning - how is communication even possible?

I would suggest we all read "Philosophical Hermeneutics" (Here) but that might not be possible. (Yes I have a gift for understatement :lol: )
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:06 pm

Dave, to be honest, RC Sproul was the person who made me get sick about the reformed idea of scripture. I actually threw up when I heard a sermon of his.

God it was awful :oops:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:33 pm

I had much the same experience Chad.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Bob Wilson » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:37 pm

Me too! I'm glad we share that common ground :-)
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby LLC » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:27 am

davo wrote:As much as it is being denied.. this ‘other gospel’ of “righteousification” is not new and nothing other than a works-orientated, performance-based “system” of self-righteousness — albeit being claimed “Working together [with Him]”.


Davo, you seem to be adverse to works for some reason. God has commanded us to work and for very good reason. The way I see it, works are an integral part of salvation and righteousness. Furthermore, I think the lack of works is part of the problem. We can all get stuck sometimes in our mundane little worlds. Going out and helping someone else can be a very humbling experience and a real eye opener. It not only touches our own lives, but the life of the recipient as well. Children need to also be doing some works which helps them grow and mature into better adults. Why do you think so many people were flocking around Jesus? When we fail to do the work of God, we become spiritually starved.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:39 am

LLC wrote:
davo wrote:As much as it is being denied.. this ‘other gospel’ of “righteousification” is not new and nothing other than a works-orientated, performance-based “system” of self-righteousness — albeit being claimed “Working together [with Him]”.


Davo, you seem to be adverse to works for some reason. God has commanded us to work and for very good reason. The way I see it, works are an integral part of salvation and righteousness. Furthermore, I think the lack of works is part of the problem. We can all get stuck sometimes in our mundane little worlds. Going out and helping someone else can be a very humbling experience and a real eye opener. It not only touches our own lives, but the life of the recipient as well. Children need to also be doing some works which helps them grow and mature into better adults. Why do you think so many people were flocking around Jesus? When we fail to do the work of God, we become spiritually starved.


Just a brief footnote here. I believe even the Roman Catholic church, has gotten away - from a system of works righteousness. And I don't think it is found, in Eastern Orthodoxy or the varieties, of Protestant theology. :)
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:39 am

Are 'both sides' using the code word 'works' in the same way, or are opponents attacking what they THINK the other person is saying?

'Work' is a loaded word. What do you mean by it?
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:11 am

DaveB wrote:Are 'both sides' using the code word 'works' in the same way, or are opponents attacking what they THINK the other person is saying?

'Work' is a loaded word. What do you mean by it?


Let's try one example definition - from http://bit.ly/2DrwCiU

WORK; WORKS

wurk, wurks:

"To work" in the Old Testament is usually the translation of `asah, or of pa`al (of the works both of God and of man), and "work" (noun) is most frequently the translation of ma`aseh, or mela'khah; in the New Testament of energeo, ergazomai (and compound), with ergon (noun). The word "works" (erga) is a favorite designation in John for the wonderful works of Jesus (5:36; 10:38; 15:24, etc.; "miracles" to us, "works" to Him). "Works" is used by Paul and James, in a special sense, as denoting (with Paul) those legal performances by means of which men sought to be accepted of God, in contradistinction to that faith in Christ through which the sinner is justified apart from all legal works (Romans 3:27; 4:2,6, etc.; Galatians 2:16; 3:2,5,10), "working through love" (Galatians 5:6; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and is fruitful in all truly "good works," in which Christian believers are expected to abound (2 Corinthians 9:8; Ephesians 2:10; Colossians 1:10; 2 Thessalonians 2:17, etc.). When James speaks of being justified by "works" as well as by "faith" (2:14-26), he has in view those works which show faith to be real and vital. "Dead works" avail nothing (compare Hebrews 9:14; 10:24). Judgment is according to "works" (Matthew 16:27, the Revised Version (British and American) "deeds," margin "Greek: `doing' " praxis; Romans 2:6; 1 Peter 1:17, etc.), the new life being therein evidenced. A contrast between "faith" and "good works" is never drawn in the New Testament.

See, further, JUSTIFICATION.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:14 am

Is anyone here using the word in that way, I wonder? Or does each side use it in a different way?
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby Alexander » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:28 am

I reccommend reading "Of Justification" https://www.ccel.org/ccel/gill/doctrinal.vii.viii.html and "Of Other Eternal and Immanent Acts of God, such as Adoption and Justification" https://www.ccel.org/ccel/gill/doctrinal.iii.v.html. This is crucial because if you couple this doctrine, justification from eternity, with the doctrine of universal atonement, you necessarily have a form of Universalism.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:06 pm

maintenanceman wrote:Dave, to be honest, RC Sproul was the person who made me get sick about the reformed idea of scripture. I actually threw up when I heard a sermon of his.

God it was awful :oops:

DaveB said:
I had much the same experience Chad.


And Bob said:
Me too! I'm glad we share that common ground :-)


We may not agree on the where with all of each of our beliefs, but this is a great group of folks.

Peace. :lol:

Chad ;)
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby LLC » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:33 am

HFPZ, thanks for the article on the works. :)

DaveB wrote:'Work' is a loaded word. What do you mean by it?


Dave, There is a difference between spiritual works and "the works of the law"/Jewish law, the works of the one true God vs. the works of pagan gods/man. From what I understand the Jewish law was not the work of God. By claiming to be doing the work of God, Jesus was basically considered heretic.
As Matthew 9:35-38 points out, "Jesus went through all the towns and villages teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. When He saw the crowds, He had compassion on them because they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. Then He said to His disciples, " The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest field."

God does not want us to be ignorant and led astray by every false god that comes down the pike. Our belief in the Spirit is not blind faith. We follow Jesus because our faith is justified ( proven or shown to be right) by works. As Jesus said " If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe Me, but if I do them though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know that the Father is in me and I in Him."

The sacrificing of animals and other ritual practices were the "dead works" of pagan gods, while the spiritual works of Jesus were bringing people alive. 'He that believes in Me, the works that I do, he shall also do." This is the Law of reciprocity, the Golden rule, and reaping what we sow in a positive way.

When one is persecuted and put to death for simply teaching and doing the work of God, something is terribly wrong. This is why Israel fell and their works were "burned up in the fire."
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby qaz » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:44 pm

If justification requires faith plus works it's not clear to me what the faith side of the equation accomplishes. An unbeliever with good works could do the same works as a Christian with good works. If works count towards righteousness, why don't they alone justify a person?

IMO either a person is justified by faith or works. Jesus's resurrection and our faith in it don't make any sense to me if justification is by a combination of faith and works.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:51 pm

Your faith is justified by your works - proven, declared to be real, genuine. Not to earn salvation, but to give evidence that faith is real and is in the God who raised Jesus.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby qaz » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:59 pm

People are justified, not people's faith.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:54 pm

You might want to think about that.
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:11 pm

DaveB wrote:Your faith is justified by your works - proven, declared to be real, genuine. Not to earn salvation, but to give evidence that faith is real and is in the God who raised Jesus.


Bro, I would take an alternate view to that. That is pure and unadulterated works righteousness. When you look at a person and say that there is no evidence that that person is a person of faith, you are treading to 'Luther's' salvation by faith. In other words like you say, you have to DO something to get something. Luther said "you have to have faith" You said "Your faith is justified by your works - proven, declared to be real, genuine"... so who in hell is going to make that assessment?

Just asking :lol:
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:17 pm

qaz wrote:People are justified, not people's faith.


Yepper ;)
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:24 pm

Chad my brother :D there is NOTHING 'work-righteousness' about that. Nothing. I did not say that you become righteous by those acts.

Your FAITH is proven to be genuine by continuing in well-doing and seeking glory and honor and immortality. Not perfectly, no; but there must be some substance to our confession.

Is that just not common sense? How ELSE can one's faith be genuine? Because one feels like it is?

I'm gonna sit firm on this, because the accusation of 'works' just is not to the point.

But remember - I build guitars! I have some redeeming value! :D
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Jan 20, 2018 6:38 pm

DaveB wrote:Chad my brother :D there is NOTHING 'work-righteousness' about that. Nothing. I did not say that you become righteous by those acts.

Your FAITH is proven to be genuine by continuing in well-doing and seeking glory and honor and immortality. Not perfectly, no; but there must be some substance to our confession.

Is that just not common sense? How ELSE can one's faith be genuine? Because one feels like it is?

I'm gonna sit firm on this, because the accusation of 'works' just is not to the point.

But remember - I build guitars! I have some redeeming value! :D


That is where we differ and where the historical context of faith becomes interesting. From my perspective, In Jesus' time and the time of the apostles right after him Faith in Jesus was very important. You know I believe and I think you know the preterist view. The verbiage of all of the NT scriptures was that of a soon coming Christ, a end of the old covenant and a new dawn to the new covenant. So going back, There is no need for proving faith because righteousness was a given through the new covenant.

So, the difference is interesting. How do we Judge or do we judge another's faith? And ultimately if we do judge them on what grounds is the judgment based?

I know for a fact you are not a creed guy!! :lol:
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Enabling Grace

Postby Paidion » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:25 pm

qaz wrote:If justification requires faith plus works it's not clear to me what the faith side of the equation accomplishes. An unbeliever with good works could do the same works as a Christian with good works. If works count towards righteousness, why don't they alone justify a person?


God wants people to be righteous. You are right that an unbeliever sometimes does good works, but he is unable to live a consistently righteous life without the enabling grace of God (made available by the sacrifice of Christ) to assist him (Titus 2). The Christian can appropriate this enabling grace through faith.
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Re: Enabling Grace

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:26 am

Paidion wrote:God wants people to be righteous. You are right that an unbeliever sometimes does good works, but he is unable to live a consistently righteous life without the enabling grace of God (made available by the sacrifice of Christ) to assist him (Titus 2). The Christian can appropriate this enabling grace through faith.


Yes, this is true. But can a person have the grace of God? Whether they actively know Christ or not? I say they can. I spent many years with this saint and authors, from the book at http://amzn.to/2DrPzkK. And with this Native American author at http://amzn.to/2rle0eE. They acted every bit as Christian - IF NOT MORE SO - then most Christians I know. And I became friends with them, years before they ever penned a book.

Just a couple of footnotes - on the Eastern saint - for you skeptics:

    The book cover says at 100 plus, he can outrun (and outlast, mind you) - young folks. Well, I was in my twenties, when I hung out with him. And there were some other twenty-year-old men - who ran with him. We were exhausted, after a few minutes. And he didn't even break a sweat!
    And I and a close nurse's aid friend, once measured his blood pressure. He had one blood pressure reading. And asked for another one, a few seconds later. Well, it changed in a matter of seconds - well over 40 units, on the blood pressure scale. He was controlling his blood pressure - of course.

I refer folks to the EO article on Inclusivist. Which is now an official part, of RC theology. And to the Calvinist theologian's talk - at the Theosophical Society at https://youtu.be/5O81xzLnKGc

Let me share today's reflection from https://cac.org/. It should be noted, I'm in harmony with the Franciscan and EO views - on this matter:

Jesus of Nazareth

At-One-Ment, Not Atonement
Sunday, January 21, 2018

The common reading of the Bible is that Jesus “died for our sins”—either to pay a debt to the devil (common in the first millennium) or to pay a debt to God (proposed by Anselm of Canterbury, 1033-1109). Franciscan philosopher and theologian John Duns Scotus (1266-1308) agreed with neither of these understandings.

Duns Scotus was not guided by the Temple language of debt, atonement, or blood sacrifice (understandably used by the Gospel writers and by Paul). He was inspired by the cosmic hymns in the first chapters of Colossians and Ephesians and the Prologue to John’s Gospel (1:1-18) and gave a theological and philosophical base to St. Francis’ deep intuitions of God’s love. While the Church has not rejected the Franciscan position, it has been a minority view.

The many “substitutionary atonement theories”—which have dominated the last 800 years of Christianity—suggest that God demanded Jesus to be a blood sacrifice to “atone” for our sin-drenched humanity. The terrible and un-critiqued premise is that God could need payment, and even a very violent transaction, to be able to love and accept God’s own children! These theories are based on retributive justice rather than the restorative justice that the prophets and Jesus taught.

For Duns Scotus, the incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness, but had to be the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were “chosen in Christ before the world was made” (Ephesians 1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the incarnation—or we were steering the cosmic ship! Only perfect love and divine self-revelation could inspire God to come in human form. God never merely reacts, but supremely and freely acts—out of love.

Salvation is much more about at-one-ment from God’s side than any needed atonement from our side. Jesus did not come to change the mind of God about humanity (it did not need changing)! Jesus came to change the mind of humanity about God!

God in Jesus moved people beyond the counting, weighing, and punishing model—which the ego prefers—to a world in which God’s mercy makes any economy of merit, sacrifice, reparation, or atonement both unhelpful and unnecessary. Jesus undid “once and for all” (Hebrews 7:27; 9:12; 10:10) notions of human and animal sacrifice (common in most ancient religions) and replaced them with an economy of grace and love.

Jesus was meant to be a game-changer for the human psyche and for religion itself. But when we begin negatively or focused on a problem, we never get off the hamster wheel of shame, separation, and violence. Rather than focusing on sin, Jesus—“the crucified One”—pointed us toward a primal solidarity with the very suffering of God and thus of all creation. This changes everything. Change the starting point, and you change the trajectory, and even the final goal! Love is the beginning, the way itself, and the final consummation.

God does not love us because we are good; God loves us because God is good. Nothing we can do will either decrease or increase God’s eternal and infinite eagerness to love!



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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby qaz » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:51 am

Paidion:
God wants people to be righteous. You are right that an unbeliever sometimes does good works, but he is unable to live a consistently righteous life without the enabling grace of God (made available by the sacrifice of Christ) to assist him (Titus 2). The Christian can appropriate this enabling grace through faith.


What is a "consistently righteous life"? Most if not all Christians do not live sinless lives from the moments of their conversion until death. In fact, that fact seems to be a tenet of your theology. Are Christians who sin living "consistently righteous lives"? If they are, then it's not clear how unbelievers who do both good and bad works aren't too, since then sinning wouldn't preclude one from a "consistently righteous life".

Before you brought up taking vengeance. I replied with a question that you avoided, so I'll ask it again here. Is it impossible for an unbeliever to choose to not take vengeance?
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby LLC » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:23 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Yes, this is true. But can a person have the grace of God? Whether they actively know Christ or not? I say they can.


HFPZ, Yes, I say they can as well, and thanks again for the at-one-ment article. I found it very informative.

qaz wrote: Is it impossible for an unbeliever to choose to not take vengeance?


qaz, No. It's not impossible.

maintenanceman wrote:Luther said "you have to have faith" You said "Your faith is justified by your works - proven, declared to be real, genuine"... so who in hell is going to make that assessment?


MM, The way I see it you can either:
1. Believe what someone else tells you and simply follow them, no questions asked.
2. Use your own heart and mind- ask questions, observe the world around you, seek and come to your own conclusions.

Do we have any other choices?
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Re: What is justification and why is it necessary?

Postby DaveB » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:43 am

LLC wrote: so who in hell is going to make that assessment?


Oh come on, we all know that God is the One we 'report' to.

7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Or just as clearly:

6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.

Uh...kinda clear?
NO? - how about:

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.

I cannot think that we START with preterism and THEN make these scriptures fit somehow - that seems bass-ackwards to me. If someone can explain these away by hiding behind a certain theory of 'righteousness' yadayadayad - well ok - but to answer the quoted question above - God is the judge of whether your faith and mine has been real, or a mixture, or an idol of our own making.

I'm trying to work my salvation out but I am deeply concerned about my tendency to see what I want to see. That's why I'm going very slowly through Romans and trying to see what Paul sees.
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