ultra universalism

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Paidion » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:15 pm

davo wrote: :lol: :lol: Maybe Randy needs his own dedicated zombie thread where he can bombard himself to his own mind-numbing ends :lol: :lol:


Well that would certainly help those of us who are trying to understand one another without having to scroll past zombies, pictures of zombies, and videos of zombies. I, for one, find it pretty distracting.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:22 pm

Paidion wrote:But why would anyone seek immortality, if he's going to be immortal automatically as in UU?


:idea:

:)
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:21 pm

Paidion wrote:
Chad, you wrote:Come on Don, you are well aware of the context of the argument. This verbiage is talking about first century people cumulating with a first century event. (The destruction of the second Temple) You obviously don't agree but quit trying to say you don't know davo's Pantelist view. I think he has been very open, forthcoming and well thought out. No magic involved.


Well, if I am "well aware" of the context, and am lying and pretending not to be aware of the details of Davo's view, why do you think I'm asking? Just to be a nuisance? Well, examine Davo's response. He is beginning to answer my questions, and I am beginning to get answers from him. Everything may be clear to you who are steeped in his doctrine, but there are people of many of other backgrounds and modes of thinking that can't make heads or tails of it, until is is straightforwardly explained. And he is beginning to do that, seemingly for my sake.

By the way, Chad, it was Davo, not I, who introduced the word "magically" into the views of those who believe in post-mortem correction, and all I did was run with it a bit.

By the way, Chad, you wrote:Origen, in a way that is what the Gospel is all about. Jesus gave his life, sacrificed, so that others could live.

Would you tell me in what sense others wouldn't live, if Jesus had not sacrificed His life.


Don, I appreciate your view, and I appreciate your context, but you seem to be trying to divide and conquer and I appreciate and understand you...

Look you are what you are and believe what you believe... But I am rolling with the Pantelist view of how things went down...

Good luck. :D
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:53 pm

qaz wrote:The idea that experiencing death and then having an encounter with the enthroned Christ would not affect a person, seems to me, preposterous. That you actually believe that dying and seeing God in all his glory wouldn't change a person, is hard for me to believe.


That is make believe fairy tale stuff, not what the Scriptures teach. Was the rich man in torments in Hades instantly transformed into an angel at death? No, it says the rich man was being - corrected - in Hades. If Christ believed in UU, why would He speak such things & give His listeners ideas that rule out UU?

qaz wrote:For you doing righteousness is all about escaping punishment. It's a very shallow moral framework.


That's not my viewpoint.


qaz wrote:Those verses don't say the only reason to be righteous is to escape punishment. In typical Origen; fashion, you're spamming with quotes that don't actually support your position.


The point is re if there were no resurrection & no life but this one, as the Sadducees believed, should one be a self sacrificing Christian, or do what pleases oneself, e.g. spend life in the "pleasures of sin"? What is your answer? Is it the same as Paul's here:

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (1 Cor.15:19)
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted," (2 Tim.3:12)
1 Cor.15:30And why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I face death every day, brothers, as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for human motives, what did I gain? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”


qaz wrote:You share the same shallow moral framework where escaping punishment is the only motivator for righteousness.


This is the same misrepresentation as above. Also scripture speaks often about fearing God, e.g.:

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
(10:28).

"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear the One who, after you have been killed, has power to throw you into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear Him!" (Lk.12:5)

It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Heb.10:31)

Fear you not me? said the LORD: will you not tremble at my presence (Jeremiah 5:22a)

when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the penalty of eonian destruction, separated from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His might, (2 Thess.1:9)



qaz wrote:If you believe there are metaphysical beings called angels and demons, that's fine. I'm not convinced though, and I've provided writings from Jonathan Mitchell that explain my position. Copy/pasting things you've already posted in this thread, like you're doing here, is spamming.


I don't see how you answered the question:

It seems the NT writers opposed the idea of telling myths: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Myths

What point would they be trying to teach in these passages by speaking of mythical beings as though real (i.e. speaking lies):

1] Who tempted Jesus in the wilderness (Mt.4)?

2) What are doctrines of demons (1 Tim.4)?

3) What are the demons Jesus cast out of people who were possessed by them?

4) Who are the spirits in prison Jesus preached to (1 Pet.3:18-20)

5) Who are the angels here:

Jude1:6 And the angels who did not stay within their own domain, but abandoned their proper dwelling, He keeps under darkness, in eternal chains for judgment on that great day.

2Pet.2:4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell, delivering them in chains to be held in gloomy darkness until their judgment;







qaz wrote:Hundreds of thousands of Jews (enemies of the cross) were killed there. The NT circumscribed a day of destruction/judgment to within a generation of Jesus. Sure the same attitudes exist today, but to use that as evidence of another destruction, is presupposition.


How were they destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD if they weren't even there then? It seems to clearly refute UU:

"Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven..." (Phil.3:18b-20a)

Paul didn't say their end is perfection at the moment of death. Or the citizenship of the enemies of Christ is in heaven. Yet if UU were true, as soon as those who hate Christ die they're with the Lord in heaven. Just like citizens of heaven. But in Phil.3 Paul is contrasting the enemies of God and their destiny of destruction with those who have a citizenship in heaven.



qaz wrote:Once you mature beyond your shallow utilitarian faith you'll understand why suicide is a horrible thing, even if it could alleviate suffering.


Why would it be a horrible thing if one is mortally wounded, & in horrific pain?

What if such a person is unable to kill themselves & wants you to? Would you have the compassion to kill them & send them to UU heaven?


qaz wrote:It's preferable that righteousness emerge as a "hard-won deposit" of personal efforts and choices, such that people are participants in their own self development, but that wouldn't make this value absolute and preclude God from bestowing efficacious grace.


How is it preferable? Do such personal efforts reward such a person if everyone gets heaven anyway at death?

The - fairy tale - of instant, pain free, (forced by irresistible grace) postmortem salvation for even the worst monsters, butchers and serial killers of history, as per the unbiblical theory of UU (Ultra Universalism), might make a good children's bedtime story, but doesn't harmonize with God's methods in this life:

Although I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit, and I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are gathered in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, along with the power of the Lord Jesus, 5 hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord. (1 Cor.5:4-5)
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:48 pm

Origen; wrote:That is make believe fairy tale stuff, not what the Scriptures teach. Was the rich man in torments in Hades instantly transformed into an angel at death?


I've already told you that I don't think this parable has anything to do with teaching what happens in the afterlife -- but is instead about the change in Jew/Gentile dynamic from the old covenant to the new -- so I'm not sure why you're asking me a question that presumes I think this verse teaches about the afterlife.

No, it says the rich man was being - corrected - in Hades. If Christ believed in UU, why would He speak such things & give His listeners ideas that rule out UU?


1. The parable doesn't say anything about correction.
2. As I've already said, I don't think this verse is about the afterlife, so obviously it doesn't rule out UU.

That's not my viewpoint.


If it's not your viewpoint you shouldn't ask what motivation there is to do righteousness unless there's postmortem punishment.

The point is re if there were no resurrection & no life but this one, as the Sadducees believed, should one be a self sacrificing Christian, or do what pleases oneself, e.g. spend life in the "pleasures of sin"? What is your answer? Is it the same as Paul's here:


Would you actually commit murder and steal if you were convinced you could get away with it (in both this life and the afterlife)? If your answer is "no" (and I hope it is), you've answered your own question.

This is the same misrepresentation as above. Also scripture speaks often about fearing God, e.g.:


It's not a misrepresentation. You seem genuinely perplexed as to why people would choose not to do evil unless there were external punishment.

I don't see how you answered the question:


I don't think everything written in the Bible is a literal description of events that happened. As such, I'm not sure there is a person called "Satan", and I definitely don't think demons are persons. If you want to learn more about where I stand, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35_jrTG2xlY&t=4639s

How were they destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD if they weren't even there then? It seems to clearly refute UU:

"Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven..." (Phil.3:18b-20a)

Paul didn't say their end is perfection at the moment of death. Or the citizenship of the enemies of Christ is in heaven. Yet if UU were true, as soon as those who hate Christ die they're with the Lord in heaven. Just like citizens of heaven. But in Phil.3 Paul is contrasting the enemies of God and their destiny of destruction with those who have a citizenship in heaven.


I already responded to this. As such, your copy/paste here is spam.

Why would it be a horrible thing if one is mortally wounded, & in horrific pain?


I have no interest in arguing the ethics of suicide.

What if such a person is unable to kill themselves & wants you to? Would you have the compassion to kill them & send them to UU heaven?


No, because murder is wrong.

How is it preferable? Do such personal efforts reward such a person if everyone gets heaven anyway at death?


I would like my niece to not run into traffic. It would be preferable for her to avoid danger on her own than have me hold her hand at intersections. But if she were to get the foolish idea in her head that she should run in front of a moving car, I would snatch her out of harm's way.

The - fairy tale - of instant, pain free, (forced by irresistible grace) postmortem salvation for even the worst monsters, butchers and serial killers of history, as per the unbiblical theory of UU (Ultra Universalism), might make a good children's bedtime story, but doesn't harmonize with God's methods in this life:


You keep bringing up the "worst butchers". How about bringing up their victims like the Jews at Auschwitz instead when you argue that imperfect people should pass from this life to postmortem unpleasantness?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:44 pm

Paidion wrote:
davo wrote:THEN logic dictates that such, IF we are consistent, MUST be in kind with THIS LIFE where a repentant confession is made. So then, ask yourself this —

Yes IF "postmortem purifying is purely figurative" that would be true. But it's not. It's a reality, and my quote from Romans 2 supports it.

Well, not even just figuratively true, BUT even especially the more so, in “reality” as in what I previously asked…

**HOW then or by what manner, means or workings did God’s purifying work manifest in reality in your life, that in turn led you to a repentant confession?** You need to be able to answer this, BECAUSE IF you can claim, as you do, the postmortem scenario, THEN SURELY you can point to the self-same evidence (being that this is God’s eternal principles at work) having worked in your own life in terms of that which brought you to repentance.

This is NOT hard to grasp… you are saying there is God’s purifying work postmortem in terms of uncomfortable repentant submission… SURELY THEN, IF there be such actual purifying ways postmortem SUCH must be the same as experienced in the here and now to gain the same end, i.e., the acceptance of God and thus in finality, according to you, entrance to heaven. Please explain… WHY there should be any difference between antemortem or postmortem?

Paidion wrote:But why would anyone seek immortality, if he's going to be immortal automatically as in UU?

Well, and not answering for UU but pantelism… isn’t this the $64k question, which by its asking shows that said seeking immortality has naught to do with one’s personal longevity BUT everything to do with seeking after God — immorality par excellence! ONLY God has immortality. To mimic Origen, shame on me… you need to cease looking at this with the eyes of the flesh — ‘seeking immortality’ is about seeking the immortal i.e., GOD. Seeking Him brings the “eternal life” Paul goes on to mention… but I already pointed you to this in the previous post.

Paidion wrote:
davo wrote:IF Christ had not died and redeemed Israel then humanity would have remained in its unreconciled state and thus lost forever...

Okay. Now please explain what it would be like for humanity to remain in its unreconciled state, and what it would be like for humanity to be lost forever. How would that state of affairs differ from the state of things as they are now that Christ has died and redeemed Israel?

Given we are NOW on the other side of reconciliation, i.e., in accord with the NT humanity HAS BEEN reconciled, period, it’s a little hard to quantify WHAT or HOW that looked like previously from the big picture, other than to say… eternally (in the sense typically understood) humanity would have remained in darkness, estranged from the Maker’s love… though in reality, as it turned out, He was never far away.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:26 am

qaz wrote:I've already told you that I don't think this parable has anything to do with teaching what happens in the afterlife -- but is instead about the change in Jew/Gentile dynamic from the old covenant to the new -- so I'm not sure why you're asking me a question that presumes I think this verse teaches about the afterlife.



That was a rhetorical question.

qaz wrote:1. The parable doesn't say anything about correction.
2. As I've already said, I don't think this verse is about the afterlife, so obviously it doesn't rule out UU.



I'm not clear how that answered the question:

If Christ believed in UU, why would He speak such things (Lk.16:19-31) & give His listeners ideas that rule out UU?

If you read the story the rich man's ideas are being corrected. He's also being informed re why he is where he is experiencing 'hell'. Something like that may be a fairly accurate representation of the afterlife in the LOF.

qaz wrote:If it's not your viewpoint you shouldn't ask what motivation there is to do righteousness unless there's postmortem punishment.


I asked you to get - your - viewpoint, not tell mine. I already ruled out your misrepresentation earlier in this thread in posts to davo. And to you i also said it's not an issue of there being no motives to be righteous, but of sufficient motives, if UU were true.

The point is re if there were no resurrection & no life but this one, as the Sadducees believed, should one be a self sacrificing Christian, or do what pleases oneself, e.g. spend life in the "pleasures of sin"? What is your answer? Is it the same as Paul's here:

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (1 Cor.15:19)
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted," (2 Tim.3:12)
1 Cor.15:30And why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I face death every day, brothers, as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for human motives, what did I gain? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”


qaz wrote:Would you actually commit murder and steal if you were convinced you could get away with it (in both this life and the afterlife)? If your answer is "no" (and I hope it is), you've answered your own question.


I don't see how that is relevant or answers the question posed.

When i was an atheist i had different ideas float through my head, sometimes altruistic, other times hedonist. The former probably were influenced by reading the NT & or studying religions.

BTW, I added back in the verses you deleted, in order to keep context, so it's known what's being referred to. What you call spamming.

qaz wrote:
I already responded to this. As such, your copy/paste here is spam.


Your response was:

"Hundreds of thousands of Jews (enemies of the cross) were killed there. The NT circumscribed a day of destruction/judgment to within a generation of Jesus. Sure the same attitudes exist today, but to use that as evidence of another destruction, is presupposition."

The reason i ask again is i don't understand how your reply answered the question:

How were they destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD if they weren't even there then? It seems to clearly refute UU:

"Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven..." (Phil.3:18b-20a)

Paul didn't say their end is perfection at the moment of death. Or the citizenship of the enemies of Christ is in heaven. Yet if UU were true, as soon as those who hate Christ die they're with the Lord in heaven. Just like citizens of heaven. But in Phil.3 Paul is contrasting the enemies of God and their destiny of destruction with those who have a citizenship in heaven.


The - fairy tale - of instant, pain free, (forced by irresistible grace) postmortem salvation for even the worst monsters, butchers and serial killers of history, as per the unbiblical theory of UU (Ultra Universalism), might make a good children's bedtime story, but doesn't harmonize with God's methods in this life:


qaz wrote:You keep bringing up the "worst butchers". How about bringing up their victims like the Jews at Auschwitz instead when you argue that imperfect people should pass from this life to postmortem unpleasantness?


Why? If UU is true then it has to apply to the worst monsters of history - the 9-11 terrorists, the most brutal serial killer rapist & child torturers - getting instant eternal bliss at death.

If the authorities believed in UU, they'd have to rethink their policy of capital punishment being a punishment.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:48 am

Paidion wrote:By the way, Chad, it was Davo, not I, who introduced the word "magically" into the views of those who believe in post-mortem correction, and all I did was run with it a bit..


I like to take off, on the word "magical". In a video I introduced earlier. What surprised me, is that bullets in the head...won't kill zombies...during the tribulation. No matter what the AMC shows - The Walking Dead and Fear the Walking Dead - say. Only touching them, with a wooden cross. I have to go back, and watch the video again. The cross might need to be anointed. But invoke the name of Jesus. This tip from the video - might save your life. :) :)

Just a footnote here.

My theological position is that the tribulation will occur. And will bring about the zombie apocalypse. And I have provided BOTH biblical passages and SME (subject matter experts) - to support this position. This is every bit as valid, as no free will universalism, ultra universalism, full preterism, etc. Obviously, you can't have a zombie apocalypse occurring, if we have no free will universalism, ultra universalism, full preterism, etc. - being true. Unless we argue for a universe of multiple dimensions - like string theory populates. Where we could have each theologically occurring - in a different dimension. Things like parallel universes, etc. But if we settle on one universe...and we dare to venture, outside the whelm of orthodoxy (i.e. historical creeds, etc., in a bell-shaped curve of normality.)...then my position - is just as valid - as these other positions. But if we do go with corrective purification, then I did propose a theory...in this very thread...to reconcile both my zombie apocalypse/ tribulation position...with the position of universalism and corrective purification (see http://www.evangelicaluniversalist.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7508&start=50#p113774).

Perhaps this is the postmortem correction...that everyone is affirming - or denying - here :?:

And now - for the YouTube video proof: Warning Prophecies - The Coming of Zombies In The Great Tribulation

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:19 am

Isa.45:22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby steve7150 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:22 pm

For the worst butchers of history to instantly be turned into perfect angels at death makes all the freewill choices in this life irrelevant.

How does someone who willfully hardened himself all life long in the most vile of sins suddenly do a 180 degree turn in a second?

Why would God even be interested in such a thing, when obviously His ways of working with man in this life are not like that?







I think you brought up some good points in that UU doesn't mesh with God's apparent methods and purposes during this life. Of course it's possible God may employ different methods postmortem but it would be a change and a big one. Since i'm not a preterist i see the Lake of Fire occurring after this age and the way it's described sounds like folks are there for some time and then 5 verses from the end of scripture comes the offer from the Spirit and the Bride to anyone to repent and drink freely from the water of life.(Rev 22.17) It sounds like a process not an instantaneous moment.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:00 pm

steve7150 wrote:I think you brought up some good points in that UU doesn't mesh with God's apparent methods and purposes during this life. Of course it's possible God may employ different methods postmortem but it would be a change and a big one.

It is indeed an interesting paradox, dare I say a glaring inconsistency… where certain believers in PU give absolutely no place for the calamitous workings of God IN life, BUT THEN advocate most vociferously for the calamitous workings of God POST life… go figure??
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:57 pm

steve7150 wrote:I think you brought up some good points in that UU doesn't mesh with God's apparent methods and purposes during this life. Of course it's possible God may employ different methods postmortem but it would be a change and a big one. Since i'm not a preterist i see the Lake of Fire occurring after this age and the way it's described sounds like folks are there for some time and then 5 verses from the end of scripture comes the offer from the Spirit and the Bride to anyone to repent and drink freely from the water of life.(Rev 22.17) It sounds like a process not an instantaneous moment.


You are probably right, Steve. And there just might be, a mariachi band playing. ;)

But the tribulation and zombie apocalypse position - is far more interesting. Of course, what you propose could occur - after the zombie apocalypse is over.

Image

I think...to play it safe...we should have a bunch of 3 - 4 foot, wooden crosses - to hit them with...like the video at https://youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84
suggests...and a bunch of guns...to shoot them in the head...like the AMC Walking Dead and Fear the Walking Dead - use. ;)

Now for a little educational endeavor:

Images are a reality in marketing. And marketing research shows, that folks read more content with embedded images (used wisely, mind you)...then content without images. See - for example - this article by Hubspot (a widely respected marketing company):


And we can also view this infographic article - from another company:


I think i hear, the mariachi band playing now :)

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby steve7150 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:55 pm

But the tribulation and zombie apocalypse position - is far more interesting. Of course, what you propose could occur - after the zombie apocalypse is over.










But what if Zombies are really Angels as i suspect!
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:53 pm

steve7150 wrote:But the tribulation and zombie apocalypse position - is far more interesting. Of course, what you propose could occur - after the zombie apocalypse is over.
But what if Zombies are really Angels as i suspect!


Really? But Steve, if that is true, what kind of God are we serving? :shock:
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:57 pm

maintenanceman wrote:
steve7150 wrote:But the tribulation and zombie apocalypse position - is far more interesting. Of course, what you propose could occur - after the zombie apocalypse is over.
But what if Zombies are really Angels as i suspect!


Really? But Steve, if that is true, what kind of God are we serving? :shock:

Perhaps they are be fallen angels… :lol:
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:27 am

davo wrote:
maintenanceman wrote:
steve7150 wrote:But the tribulation and zombie apocalypse position - is far more interesting. Of course, what you propose could occur - after the zombie apocalypse is over.
But what if Zombies are really Angels as i suspect!


Really? But Steve, if that is true, what kind of God are we serving? :shock:

Perhaps they are be fallen angels… :lol:


Actually, you both hit the nail - on the head.

The embedded and linked video at https://youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84 - in this thread - is a SERIOUS video. And every bit as serious, as ideas presented on this forum:

    God has a cosmic puppet show, to redeem mankind - who has no free will
    Christ will instantly and magically, transform everyone into heaven - regardless of their background
    Everything has been accomplished around 70 A.D. Even though this eludes, most churches and Christian theologians.
    The Devil is as powerful as God and is responsible - for all natural disasters
    Somehow, the Old Testament is equal to the New Testament
    Etc

For the most part, my ideas fall in line...;with Catholic and Eastern Orthodox theology...the historical church fathers...or a Joel Osteen, inspirational message. But I digress. Let's return to the video at https://youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84 - that has my endorsement.

And this all, brings to mind the film at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Re-Animator

During the tribulation, Satan will want to mock - the resurrection process. So he will reanimate corpses of unbelievers. And these will be populated - by unholy angles. Similar to what is "alleged" In Haitian Voodoo. Where they force spirits into bodies - via black magic.

The devil is having "one big cosmic joke". And is perverting, all that is sacred and holy. He is even mocking, the Russian Orthodox, Holy Fools tradition. And I ...as someone warning mankind, here on this forum...and the devil, with his "cosmic trickery"...are thinking the same thing.

This idea is so crazy, that it just might work.


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Re: ultra universalism

Postby DaveB » Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:43 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:The embedded and linked video at https://youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84 - in this thread - is a SERIOUS video. And every bit as serious, as ideas presented on this forum


That was quite a video.
What I personally would relate better to, would be a well-structured argument, sans special effects as good as they may be, that sets forth the case for the ZA. The video reminded me of the "Alien Autopsy" documentary (so-called) from some years back, or some of the UFO 'documentaries', or the vid of the pastor who would wave his hands over a sick person and the diseased organ would appear on that person's tummy. In other words, without some justification the Z video linked to has the look of being a hoax.

So, maybe in a dedicated thread? - how about some fairly short posts setting forth the 'reasons to believe' in the Z-thing. Something that can be analyzed, attacked, encouraged - an actual position that can be assessed?

One reason I intentionally posted that very gross gif was to say that a gif makes a statement that is louder than reasoned discourse. Same with this video.

Just a suggestion! :D
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:06 am

DaveB wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:The embedded and linked video at https://youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84 - in this thread - is a SERIOUS video. And every bit as serious, as ideas presented on this forum


That was quite a video.
What I personally would relate better to, would be a well-structured argument, sans special effects as good as they may be, that sets forth the case for the ZA. The video reminded me of the "Alien Autopsy" documentary (so-called) from some years back, or some of the UFO 'documentaries', or the vid of the pastor who would wave his hands over a sick person and the diseased organ would appear on that person's tummy. In other words, without some justification the Z video linked to has the look of being a hoax.

So, maybe in a dedicated thread? - how about some fairly short posts setting forth the 'reasons to believe' in the Z-thing. Something that can be analyzed, attacked, encouraged - an actual position that can be assessed?

One reason I intentionally posted that very gross gif was to say that a gif makes a statement that is louder than reasoned discourse. Same with this video.

Just a suggestion! :D


I'll give it some thought, Dave. Right now, it's time for the holiday celebrations. Which includes spending time, with my zombie friends. :lol:

And you are right, on GIF and video images. Like I shared, in the marketing posts - from a prior post (in this very thread). :D

The logical arguments, for p-zombies...by professional philosophers...would also apply to zombies. Arguments both pro and con - mind you. So any discussion could BECOME VERY DEEP (no zombie grave pun intended) :lol:

Seriously. As far as logical arguments go, it has been done. See, for example - the debate on http://www.debate.org/debates/Resolved-the-Zombie-Apocalypse-Will-Happen/1/ - for example. More along scientific lines - rather than philosophical lines.

But opening up a thread, on philosophical arguments - for and against - zombies and p-zombies...might be a GREAT idea, for the new year.

And whether it will happen - on scientific grounds - is really an unanswered question. It's been debated - with logical arguments, on both sides. But it is plausible - on theological grounds - during the tribulation. Who knows what that would be like - if it does occur :?:

But, when all is said and done. What will happen - scientifically and theologically - might fall outside... the best of academic, logical arguments. :lol:

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:58 pm

I like to comment on logical arguments and proofs. I have had plenty of them - in academia. When taking courses in philosophy, literature and theology. And I could punch and kick out positional papers, with the best of them.

But there's another world - actually other worlds - that would best be experienced. And I have had that also.

Now let me give some examples:

    The world of homeopathic remedies. Logically, the world of traditional medicine shuns it. However, I had known US medical doctors...that have studied and adopted it. And I have seen and experienced remedies working...where there is no substance, of the original material present.
    Or take the native american world. They collectively believe in spirits. And I hung out, with them for years. And at first, I was a disbeliever. But in their ceremonies, I experienced many things - I couldn't explain away.
    Or take the world, of Roman Catholic priest Father A. Who has the gift of healing and hearing God speak. But I've been to many, of his healing services. And have fallen down - many times.

It would be hard, to construct logical arguments - to prove certain things.

    Could the devil be playing, a huge cosmic joke...by having fallen angels, animate dead bodies of unbelievers - during the tribulation? Perhaps.

Well, my mom - now deceased - was born with the gift of prophesy. And she was a lifelong Protestant.

Sure, I can present philosophical arguments - from noted and learned philosophers. And they will build airtight cases - for and against, p-zombies and zombies. But these arguments, may - or may not fit - into the world of collective experience.

Hum! I wonder if that's Dave - in this GIF. :lol:

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:50 pm

Origen; wrote:That was a rhetorical question.


If that's the case, it's ineffective rhetoric.

qaz wrote:I'm not clear how that answered the question:

If Christ believed in UU, why would He speak such things (Lk.16:19-31) & give His listeners ideas that rule out UU?

If you read the story the rich man's ideas are being corrected. He's also being informed re why he is where he is experiencing 'hell'. Something like that may be a fairly accurate representation of the afterlife in the LOF.


The word "correction" (or something similar) does not appear anywhere in the parable. The rich man is described as being in physical torment. There's no indication that the rich man will ever escape his unpleasant situation. To construe this parable as teaching postmortem corrective punishment is to read something you want to see into the text.

I asked you to get - your - viewpoint, not tell mine. I already ruled out your misrepresentation earlier in this thread in posts to davo. And to you i also said it's not an issue of there being no motives to be righteous, but of sufficient motives, if UU were true.


Wanting to be righteous should be a sufficient motive.

The point is re if there were no resurrection & no life but this one, as the Sadducees believed, should one be a self sacrificing Christian, or do what pleases oneself, e.g. spend life in the "pleasures of sin"? What is your answer? Is it the same as Paul's here:

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." (1 Cor.15:19)
"Indeed, all who desire to live godly lives in Christ Jesus will be persecuted," (2 Tim.3:12)
1 Cor.15:30And why do we endanger ourselves every hour? 31I face death every day, brothers, as surely as I boast about you in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for human motives, what did I gain? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”


In none of those verses does Paul actually say there is postmortem punishment. He says there is a resurrection, yes, but says nothing about what will happen to people once they are resurrected.

I don't see how that is relevant or answers the question posed.

When i was an atheist i had different ideas float through my head, sometimes altruistic, other times hedonist. The former probably were influenced by reading the NT & or studying religions.

BTW, I added back in the verses you deleted, in order to keep context, so it's known what's being referred to. What you call spamming.


It's relevant because you seem perplexed about doing righteousness as an end in itself. I'm asking if your conscience would cease to function if you didn't think there was an afterlife.

Your response was:

"Hundreds of thousands of Jews (enemies of the cross) were killed there. The NT circumscribed a day of destruction/judgment to within a generation of Jesus. Sure the same attitudes exist today, but to use that as evidence of another destruction, is presupposition."

The reason i ask again is i don't understand how your reply answered the question:

How were they destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD if they weren't even there then? It seems to clearly refute UU:

"Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven..." (Phil.3:18b-20a)

Paul didn't say their end is perfection at the moment of death. Or the citizenship of the enemies of Christ is in heaven. Yet if UU were true, as soon as those who hate Christ die they're with the Lord in heaven. Just like citizens of heaven. But in Phil.3 Paul is contrasting the enemies of God and their destiny of destruction with those who have a citizenship in heaven.


THEY WERE DESTROYED. Jews were the enemies of the cross. You seem to think the "enemies of the cross" to be destroyed are all unbelievers. I'm saying Paul's statement needs to be understood within the context of his impeding eschatology.

Why? If UU is true then it has to apply to the worst monsters of history - the 9-11 terrorists, the most brutal serial killer rapist & child torturers - getting instant eternal bliss at death.

If the authorities believed in UU, they'd have to rethink their policy of capital punishment being a punishment.


By repeatedly bringing up the "worst butchers", you're trying to appeal to our carnal desire for vengeance, to see other people suffer. But if UU isn't true, there's a much less palatable reality that goes along with it -- many of the butchers' victims went from their earthly unpleasantness to more unpleasantness. When you think about the Jews at Auschwitz going from gas chambers to a new unpleasant situation postmortem, your hunger for people to be punished loses a lot of its flavor.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:38 pm

qaz wrote:
Origen; wrote:
qaz wrote:You keep bringing up the "worst butchers". How about bringing up their victims like the Jews at Auschwitz instead when you argue that imperfect people should pass from this life to postmortem unpleasantness?


Why? If UU is true then it has to apply to the worst monsters of history - the 9-11 terrorists, the most brutal serial killer rapist & child torturers - getting instant eternal bliss at death.

If the authorities believed in UU, they'd have to rethink their policy of capital punishment being a punishment.

qaz wrote:By repeatedly bringing up the "worst butchers", you're trying to appeal to our carnal desire for vengeance, to see other people suffer. But if UU isn't true, there's a much less palatable reality that goes along with it -- many of the butchers' victims went from their earthly unpleasantness to more unpleasantness. When you think about the Jews at Auschwitz going from gas chambers to a new unpleasant situation postmortem, your hunger for people to be punished loses a lot of its flavor.

Bang on the money qaz!

The whole “worst butchers” appeal is an illogical and hypocritical furphy… like it's apparently okay to be repulsed, sickened, and angered by the temporal torture and extermination of six million Jews by an evil, unjust, and hateful Hitler; and yet infernalists’ or those peddling the self-same rationale will then turn around and whole heartily laud as justified such supposed postmortem calamities of the very self-same Jews by a good, just, and loving God… go figure!? Origen would make for a good infernalist — or is it a case of… ‘old beliefs die hard’?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:55 pm

Back to the video at https://youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84. One question we can ask...on whether fallen angels...will animate the corpses of unbelievers...during the tribulation - is this.

Has anything this unbelievable - happened before - in scripture?

Well, what about the Nephilim? We just need to look at, the Calvinist site Got Questions. And the Wiki site:


Let's see what the Calvinists think:

The Nephilim (“fallen ones, giants”) were the offspring of sexual relationships between the sons of God and daughters of men in Genesis 6:1–4. There is much debate as to the identity of the “sons of God.” It is our opinion that the “sons of God” were fallen angels (demons) who mated with human females or possessed human males who then mated with human females. These unions resulted in offspring, the Nephilim, who were “heroes of old, men of renown” (Genesis 6:4).


Well, if we can believe this...then why not, what the video author envisions - with her gift of prophesy?

And this all fits in nicely - with this tread. Because if this is true, then how can ultra universalism also occur? ;)

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Paidion » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:46 pm

Hi qaz, you wrote:The word "correction" (or something similar) does not appear anywhere in the parable. The rich man is described as being in physical torment. There's no indication that the rich man will ever escape his unpleasant situation. To construe this parable as teaching postmortem is to read something you want to see into the text.


You have indicated above that this is a parable—which indeed it is. This is not describing an actual scene in the afterlife. The fact is that the Jees of the day DID hold that the afterlife was like this. So Jesus used this common belief of the Jews as a parable to show that even it it were possible for someone to return to the earth from suffering in Hades, that they, the Pharisees would not believe.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:44 am

qaz wrote:THEY WERE DESTROYED. Jews were the enemies of the cross. You seem to think the "enemies of the cross" to be destroyed are all unbelievers. I'm saying Paul's statement needs to be understood within the context of his impeding eschatology.


If those to whom Paul were speaking died before the destruction of 70 A.D., then they how could they have been alive to be destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD? Likewise if they weren't in Jerusalem in 70 AD, how could they have been destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD? Furthermore, Paul was writing to those saints in Philippi, but if some of them were not Jews, then how is your comment valid? Additionally, what evidence is there that the things referred to - (1) enemies of the cross, (2) god is their belly (3) glory is in their shame & (4) mind set on earthly things - only refers to Jews?

Previous remarks on this point stated:

Your response was:

"Hundreds of thousands of Jews (enemies of the cross) were killed there. The NT circumscribed a day of destruction/judgment to within a generation of Jesus. Sure the same attitudes exist today, but to use that as evidence of another destruction, is presupposition."

The reason i ask again is i don't understand how your reply answered the question:

How were they destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD if they weren't even there then? It seems to clearly refute UU:

"Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven..." (Phil.3:18b-20a)

Paul didn't say their end is perfection at the moment of death. Or the citizenship of the enemies of Christ is in heaven. Yet if UU were true, as soon as those who hate Christ die they're with the Lord in heaven. Just like citizens of heaven. But in Phil.3 Paul is contrasting the enemies of God and their destiny of destruction with those who have a citizenship in heaven.


By repeatedly bringing up the "worst butchers", you're trying to appeal to our carnal desire for vengeance, to see other people suffer. But if UU isn't true, there's a much less palatable reality that goes along with it -- many of the butchers' victims went from their earthly unpleasantness to more unpleasantness. When you think about the Jews at Auschwitz going from gas chambers to a new unpleasant situation postmortem, your hunger for people to be punished loses a lot of its flavor.


I find it amusing when online posters write as if they can read the minds or hearts of anonymous strangers they don't know & have little clue about. Is it they think they have a gift of the Spirit to discern such things? Evidently they need to take this gift to the repair shop & get it fixed, or return to the store where they got it for a refund, since in almost every case IME they have been wrong.

How much suffering is too much? Is there a limit when God should just zap a person with irresistible grace into endless heaven? Are there minimum requirements of suffering so that those who suffered next to nothing in this world will require more in the hereafter?

If this world exists because suffering is required, then what of those who never suffered, e.g. babies dying in utero? Will they be required to experience suffering in the after life?

How would you feel if those who died in gas chambers heard the gospel postmortem, felt sorry for their selfish lives lived in continual sin & spitting upon the face of Jesus, & then got saved into endless bliss 5 minutes after they died? It's not UU, but practically the same.

How do UU's explain away the following passage? Jerusalem 70 AD was when every knee bowed & every tongue confessed?

Isa.45:22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

When will v.24b be fulfilled, "all who were angry at Him will be put to shame"?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:28 am

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DaveB is looking for logical proofs, of the existence of zombies. Well, I have found them:


And I can come up - with MUCH MORE - to satisfy the logical mind. So I can provide logical proofs. I can provide a scientific foundation. We can show Biblical stories, that show stuff equally as unbelievable. We can show Biblical passages - showing their actual (or possible) existence - in times past. And prophesy - that they will exist - during the tribulation at https://youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84.

Let me also mention this. If you click on the YouTube video...look at the related YouTube videos...Google brings up, on the right side. For exampe:


So why are different folks, prophesying the same - or similar - events :?:

And look at this interesting Patheos article:


Driving around with two seminary professors with doctorates from very conservative American schools that don’t even much believe in supernatural miracles continuing today, I was shocked when they casually began speaking about the zombie problem in Haiti. Apparently, it was a reality they had dealt with on multiple occasions in their pastoral ministry.


And here's another Patheos article - for reflection:


And you can't have 2 things, co-existing at the same time. Which is the zombie apocalypse and ultra-universalism. However, as a hopeful universalist...it can be implemented... after the zombie apocalypse, has run its course

Furthermore, there's the noted theological opinion...of Anglican bishop and NT scholar - N.T. Wright. That folks become something subhuman (i.e. p-zombie or zombie)...when the lose the image of God within them.

"Mind numbing", Davo? I can be every bit as "mind-expanding" or "mind-provoking"...on ANY topic :lol:

Oh, yes. Let's see what N.T. Wright - has to say :!:

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby DaveB » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:07 am

PM sent
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:36 am

DaveB wrote:PM sent


I got it Dave and replied to it. Let's see how others fare - on their own - shall we :?: :lol:
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:41 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Furthermore, there's the noted theological opinion...of Anglican bishop and NT scholar - N.T. Wright. That folks become something subhuman (i.e. p-zombie or zombie)...when the lose the image of God within them.

"Mind numbing", Davo? I can be every bit as "mind-expanding" or "mind-provoking"...on ANY topic :lol:

Oh, yes. Let's see what N.T. Wright - has to say :!:


:lol: Randy, you know no shame… fancy verballing Tom Wright that. :mrgreen:
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:54 pm

davo wrote: :lol: Randy, you know no shame… fancy verballing Tom Wright that. :mrgreen:


He probably hasn't gotten to Revelations yet - in his publication works. I'm sure when he does, he will use what he shared, on the video...into Revelations. He just hasn't seen the full picture...and the FULL implications - for his visionary ideas. Or extending his visionary ideas - to their LOGICAL conclusion. ;)

Just a footnote, Davo. Most folks attack the Full Preterite (and related positions), from a theological standpoint. Which would normally result in a stalemate - between two, equally-footed, chess players. The key is to also treat, the Bible as literature. And analyze the writer's voice. Much like presenting, a literary positional paper. And also look at things, from a linguistic perspective. I wish I had more time now - to explore this angle. But it's the holidays and such. :D

Although - from a theological perspective - this essay is very good: :D

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:52 pm

Origen; wrote:If those to whom Paul were speaking died before the destruction of 70 A.D., then they how could they have been alive to be destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD? Likewise if they weren't in Jerusalem in 70 AD, how could they have been destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD? Furthermore, Paul was writing to those saints in Philippi, but if some of them were not Jews, then how is your comment valid? Additionally, what evidence is there that the things referred to - (1) enemies of the cross, (2) god is their belly (3) glory is in their shame & (4) mind set on earthly things - only refers to Jews?

Previous remarks on this point stated:

Your response was:

"Hundreds of thousands of Jews (enemies of the cross) were killed there. The NT circumscribed a day of destruction/judgment to within a generation of Jesus. Sure the same attitudes exist today, but to use that as evidence of another destruction, is presupposition."

The reason i ask again is i don't understand how your reply answered the question:

How were they destroyed in Jerusalem in 70 AD if they weren't even there then? It seems to clearly refute UU:

"Many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and their glory is in their shame. Their minds are set on earthly things. 20 But our citizenship is in heaven..." (Phil.3:18b-20a)

Paul didn't say their end is perfection at the moment of death. Or the citizenship of the enemies of Christ is in heaven. Yet if UU were true, as soon as those who hate Christ die they're with the Lord in heaven. Just like citizens of heaven. But in Phil.3 Paul is contrasting the enemies of God and their destiny of destruction with those who have a citizenship in heaven.


Either you accept preterist eschatology or you don't. You obviously don't, and I'm not interested in convincing you. I will merely say once more that Phil 3:18-20 may be understood within the context of Paul's (and the rest of the NT's) immanent eschatology and thus does not "seem to clearly refute UU".

I find it amusing when online posters write as if they can read the minds or hearts of anonymous strangers they don't know & have little clue about. Is it they think they have a gift of the Spirit to discern such things? Evidently they need to take this gift to the repair shop & get it fixed, or return to the store where they got it for a refund, since in almost every case IME they have been wrong.

How much suffering is too much? Is there a limit when God should just zap a person with irresistible grace into endless heaven? Are there minimum requirements of suffering so that those who suffered next to nothing in this world will require more in the hereafter?

If this world exists because suffering is required, then what of those who never suffered, e.g. babies dying in utero? Will they be required to experience suffering in the after life?

How would you feel if those who died in gas chambers heard the gospel postmortem, felt sorry for their selfish lives lived in continual sin & spitting upon the face of Jesus, & then got saved into endless bliss 5 minutes after they died? It's not UU, but practically the same.


No, there are no "minimum requirements". No, babies who die before birth should not have to suffer in the afterlife. I'm pretty sure you know that my answer to these questions is "no". Your attitude reminds me of the vineyard workers who complained that those who handn't worked as long as them would receive the same reward.

How do UU's explain away the following passage? Jerusalem 70 AD was when every knee bowed & every tongue confessed?

Isa.45:22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other.

23"I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

24"They will say of Me, 'Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

When will v.24b be fulfilled, "all who were angry at Him will be put to shame"?


Every knee bowing/tongue confessing describes on ongoing reality as people pass from this life to the next.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:51 pm

qaz wrote:
Every knee bowing/tongue confessing describes on ongoing reality as people pass from this life to the next.


NOBODY on this forum will be happy....unless they read the response...from the Calvinist site - Got Questions :lol:


I'm sure any answer given, would apply to zombies also. :lol:

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:34 am

Just read "Beyond the End Times" by John Noe and I'm convinced. I have moved from partial preterism to full preterism. While the events and judgment day happened in 70 A.D. we can still get a spiritual meaning that applies to us today out of the book of Revelation. The historical events of 70 A.D. apply to the battle between the carnal self (ego) and the angel self (true self). Revelation describes this battle and ultimately ends in the born again experience of the union between Christ and His bride. The new heavens and earth and new temple exist within the enlightened consciousness of those in union with Christ. It's a state of awareness that produces fruits as we drink from the waters of life. Judgment day occurs at different times for each individual in the present life. Some are judged upon death as they are renewed in a twinkling of an eye. To read more of the new birth in Revelation try this book out. It's a metaphysical interpretation of the latter half of the New Testament. It's a Unity classic. "Be Ye Transformed: Acts Through Revelation Metaphysically Interpreted" by Elizabeth Sand Turner



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This third volume of Elizabeth Sand Turner's trilogy of Bible interpretation will bring new meaning to the metaphysical interpretation of Acts, the letters of Paul, and Revelation. Known for her two other classics, Let There Be Light and Your Hope of Glory, Turner will show you how to transform your life by learning to live by Christian principles. This book, based on Charles Fillmore's metaphysical Bible interpretation, covers the early church, the ministry and epistles of Paul, the General Epistles, and the Revelation to John.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:28 pm

St M said:
I have moved from partial preterism to full preterism.

Cool, and that starts a whole new view of the scriptures in opposition to most of all of the flavors of mainstream Christianity. ;)

Good luck. :D
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:38 pm

Well, The "whole world" in Paul's time was the Roman empire. After the destruction of Jerusalem the old covenant order came to an end and the new "heavens and earth" came down. The new Jerusalem is the church or bride of Christ. Rome became Christian when Constantine converted. The Roman Catholic church is the new Jerusalem or bride of Christ. I guess I hold to a preterism like those in the Catholic church. Just as the church are copies of heaven and earth are taken globally. We see a double fulfilment of the prophecy like those prophecies of the OT that are fulfilled in the new. They have an immediate fulfillment and a secondary fulfillment. So, the new heavens and earth on a global scale is still future. But the narrower copy of the new Jerusalem is the bride of Christ (church) which is the Roman Catholic church. Remember, when the Bible speaks of the "Whole world" in the NT it's referring to the Roman Empire. The new Jerusalem (Roman Catholic church) is the center of the new heavens and earth or the bride. That is, the church.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:55 pm

We come into union with the Eucharist.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Paidion » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:05 pm

We come into union with the Eucharist.


The Eucharist (The Thanksgiving) is a wonderful remembrance of Jesus, especially of what He did for us in His death and what God did for us in raising Him from the dead. And it is more than a remembrance. While outwardly we are but eating unleavened bread and drinking wine, inwardly we are being nourished by the Anointed One.

However, it seems to me that your statement above puts the cart before the horse. Participation in the Eucharist does not bring unity. Rather those who are in unity in the Anointed One, are qualified to share together The Eucharist (The Thanksgiving)—also known as the Communion (the Sharing).
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:43 pm

Well, nobody is looking at tradition. Where the Anglican proverb is "scripture, reason and tradition". The Eastern Orthodox position is Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition - is one organic whole. And the Roman Catholic position, is BOTH reason and tradition - under the magisterium . And these collectively, are the 3 biggest branches of Christianity.

Well, everyone here thinks the Protestant reformers - got the canon right. But they (AKA reformers) are WAY OFF - on the theology. But if the ghosts of the reformers - visit this forum...They may be turning over - in their graves. :lol:

And I hate to burst Michael's bubble. But Full Preterism and the Roman Catholic Church - are incompatible. We just need to view this answer from EWTN - The RC TV station at http://www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage.asp?number=360178 Also see the discussion on the Catholic forums at https://forums.catholic.com/t/what-is-preterism-and-is-it-ok-for-a-catholic-to-believe-in-preterism/159612

So the answer in the second forum is this. It's OK to be RC and a Partial Preterist. But not a full preterist.

As long as you don’t take the extreme view that ALL prophecy was fulfilled by 70 AD, yes.

Hey Holly, preterism that does not exclude Jesus’ second coming? Absolutely!


For definitions, see:



And as far as communion goes, I side with the Eastern Orthodox and Methodist positions. Christ is present in the bread and wine. But it's a mystery, how that is so.

But since we talk here about Sola Sciptural. Let's return to the Zombie Apocalypse - during the tribulation.

The shows Fear The Walking Dead and The Walking Dead, shows the zombies as being slow. But the TV show Z-Nation, shows them as being fast. And another Christian prophet at https://youtu.be/IQKp41kPKiM, envisioned them walking up building walls. It's hard to gauge, the extent of their abilities. And the Christian video at Zombie Apocalypse - leaves no clue either.

But I have a BRILLIANT plan.

The video at Zombie Apocalypse, warns us of the ZA attack - during the tribulation. And wooden crosses, would make an effective counter.

And Rev Peter Popoff - in his infomercial at https://youtu.be/IhWT7-OIGM8 - talks about miracle spring holy water.

Well, all we have to do...is to find this miracle spring. And fill a bunch of long-range squirt guns - with it. Then we can hit the zombies with wooden crosses. And squirt them, with miracle spring holy water. When the ZA occurs - of course. Providing we are not, one of the chosen elite - who doesn't have to stick around.

What do you think?

And if anyone here survives. I'll be selling shirts - with this logo:

Image

Hey, it's almost Christmas. Even the zombies can pause - for a religious Christmas song. :lol:

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:01 pm

Randy said:
Well, nobody is looking at tradition. Where the Anglican proverb is "scripture, reason and tradition". The Eastern Orthodox position is Holy Scripture and Sacred Tradition - is one organic whole. And the Roman Catholic position, is BOTH reason and tradition - under the magisterium . And these collectively, are the 3 biggest branches of Christianity.


Well Randy, when tradition is not compatible with History and Scripture, we are talking about lemmings. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with following someone you like and trust, but there are on the other side of the coin, facts involved. :D

I look forward to a zombie response. :lol:

Merry Christmas!
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:38 pm

So the answer in the second forum is this. It's OK to be RC and a Partial Preterist. But not a full preterist.



Zombies aside, there are several interesting topics in that post.

Officially that would be true, i guess, though that doesn't stop many RC (and EU etc) members from believing & or proclaiming to the world what such "church" denominations do not consider "official" doctrine, e.g. universalism, Mary as co-redeemer, etc.

Regarding Sola Scriptura, i was reading this the other day:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... e.7964124/
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:00 pm

Origen said:
Officially that would be true, i guess, though that doesn't stop many RC (and EU etc) members from believing & or proclaiming to the world what such "church" denominations do not consider "official" doctrine, e.g. universalism, Mary as co-redeemer, etc.


Well, I assume your quote above is tied to your quote about full preterism. You (at least to my following the progress of your and davo's post's) seem to ignore the fact that much of what is being proposed here on this forum is the 'difference' between a full preteristic view of scripture and what has been described as a 'Pantelist' view, or others would call it a 'comprehensive grace' or 'fulfilled grace' view of scripture.

To be honest, folks who get to that point in their study are not easily rangled by orthodoxy. :lol:

Merry Christmas Origen!
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:07 pm

St. Michael wrote:I guess I hold to a preterism like those in the Catholic church. Just as the church are copies of heaven and earth are taken globally. We see a double fulfilment of the prophecy like those prophecies of the OT that are fulfilled in the new. They have an immediate fulfillment and a secondary fulfillment. So, the new heavens and earth on a global scale is still future.

You would technically fall into the partial prêterist camp… which most to all full prêterists once were. Partial prêterism predominately sees a break at Mt 24:34 with all leading up to that point referencing the DoJ, but then read what follows as the end of our time-space universe. Full prêts read the passage as a whole seeing ‘the Day of the Lord’ as end of the Mosaic world of the old covenant, NOT the time-space universe.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:24 am

maintenanceman wrote:
Well Randy, when tradition is not compatible with History and Scripture, we are talking about lemmings. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with following someone you like and trust, but there are on the other side of the coin, facts involved. :D

I look forward to a zombie response. :lol:

Merry Christmas!



Let me get back to something Chad mentioned - about facts.

Well, I go to the health club - Monday through Friday. And I see TVs in the locker room - tuned on to CNN, CSNBC and Fox News. And I see the same stories and facts presented. But there is a different spin - from each TV station. Either the Democrats, were the superheros. And the Republicans, are NOW the supervillains Or Vice versa.

Or take zombies. It's a fact, that there are people - who allegedly have, the gift of prophesy. My Protestant mom - now deceased - was born with it. And I can show you folks (i.e. https://youtu.be/IQKp41kPKiM and https://youtu.be/UqHvVwyYc84), who allegedly have - the gift of prophesy. And they see zombies in the tribulation.

And look at this interesting Patheos article. It shows well educated theologians - who have a different take on zombies - after visiting Haiti.:


Driving around with two seminary professors with doctorates from very conservative American schools that don’t even much believe in supernatural miracles continuing today, I was shocked when they casually began speaking about the zombie problem in Haiti. Apparently, it was a reality they had dealt with on multiple occasions in their pastoral ministry.


Traditions can bring power and healing.

    Well, I was at a healing mass - with father A. A woman went to a Catholic site...where Mary supposedly appeared. And she had inoperable brain cancer. And she was healed...and ended up, with the gift of healing. I saw this healed woman. I felt her touch. And the Catholic Church and the Catholic doctors - conducted a thorough investigation.
    Or take the Native Americans. I hung around the Two Feathers Medicine Clan for years. I believe that God spoke to them in visions - in the past. Just as he did - to the Israelite's. But I have seen many healings - in their sacred ceremonies. Which have been passed down - via tradition. See Red Road Spirituality
    Or take the legacy, of saints and holy people. This is tradition. And it's part of the RC and EO churches. A saint is close to God - even after death. And this closeness, means they can intervene via prayer - on our behalf. And this tradition is also true, in that from the East, Islam (Sufism) and the Native Americans. In fact, I subscribe to a newsletter - regarding an Eastern and Sufi saint in India. Who has been dead, for over 100 years. And there are several people (just about each day - mind you), from around the world - reporting miracles.

Yes, so we have "facts". And facts can be spun and viewed - in different ways. But we also have traditions, that "allegedly" brings power and healing.

Scripture? What came first - the chicken or the egg (i.e. tradition or scripture)? :lol:

Let's look at this article - for example:


Sacred Scripture is something tangible and is contained in inspired sacred "books." Sacred Tradition is a living reality (CCC 80-83). The Bible is the uniquely inspired part of Sacred Tradition. Sacred Tradition is the Bible as received, meditated on, contemplated, read and put into effect in the life of the Church. Tradition reveals in the sense that it amplifies or clarifies or actualizes the text of the Bible. What is important here is that everything in Sacred Tradition is necessarily related to the written Bible!

Still we can speak positively about both. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition have much in common. Besides forming the content of Divine Revelation, they form what we call a single Sacred Deposit of Faith. It is called sacred because it comes from God. It is called a deposit because it has been left to us by Christ. It deals with faith because it contains what we must believe if we are to be followers of Christ. These two together, Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition form this single deposit. They may not be separated because they are both instruments of God's revelation which is one message. At least four points are shared in common by Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition:

    1. Both are vehicles for God's revelation.
    2. Both trace their origin to the Holy Spirit; Sacred Scripture is found in the sacred text and Sacred Tradition is found in the believing community.
    3. Both draw on Christ, the Son of God and the source and summit of God's revelation, Who handed on to the Apostles what He came to teach: "What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has bidden me" (John 12:50).


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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:25 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Yes, so we have "facts". And facts can be spun and viewed - in different ways. But we also have traditions, that "allegedly" bring power and healing.

Image


Well you can keep your questionable “facts” IMO. Mark Driscoll’s article had this to say…
Biblical “zombies” are dead people that God raises to life, for a season, for his purpose.

IMO, “Biblical” is a stretch straight off… but this quote above if held to any consistency means Jesus himself, by Driscoll’s measure, was likewise a zombie too… give me a break! :shock:
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:37 am

davo wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Yes, so we have "facts". And facts can be spun and viewed - in different ways. But we also have traditions, that "allegedly" bring power and healing.

Image


Well you can keep your questionable “facts” IMO. Mark Driscoll’s article had this to say…
Biblical “zombies” are dead people that God raises to life, for a season, for his purpose.

IMO, “Biblical” is a stretch straight off… but this quote above if held to any consistency means Jesus himself, by Driscoll’s measure, was likewise a zombie too… give me a break! :shock:


I just try to present the "facts", Davo. I leave it up to members here, to put their own spin on them. :lol:

Obviously, the author - and the 2 seminary graduates and theologians he quoted - have different opinions - on zombies. :D

And Mark didn't spend as much time in Haitian - as the 2 quoted theologians. Or he might have a different picture - or spin - on zombies. ;)

And since I'm also, a living proponent...of the Russian Orthodox, Holy Fools tradition...It's hard to tell sometimes, where I am coming from. :lol:

But if I say I PERSONALLY observed, experienced or witnessed something...then this is TRUTH - from my perspective. :D

For example. I was once talking to a sun dancer (a powerful Native American ceremony). And he told, me, that his body was once inhabited - by a drug dealer - before his death. The drug dealer died and a new spirit entered his body. Well, the whole Native American spirituality, is filled with spirits. And this person appeared to me - to be sane. Of course, I experienced this conversation. I have heard stories about such events. And he could be spinning a story. But "technically", is is NOW a zombie. Although one as sound in mind, as you or me.

Perhaps this video can illustrate different perspectives?

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:01 am

That’s all well and good Randy… but by your own measure, does Jesus logically fit your criteria for zombie, YES or NO — what say you?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Dec 24, 2017 6:08 am

davo wrote:That’s all well and good Randy… but by your own measure, does Jesus logically fit your criteria for zombie, YES or NO — what say you?


No, Dave. Jesus was not a zombie. Whatever the mainstream and conservative RC, EO and Protestant churches (or the historical creeds) state - that's what I side with - about Christ.

But since this article by Mark, was written near Halloween. Perhaps his statement was a "tongue in cheek" one :?:

Especially since the author Mark - is also a pastor (i.e. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tongue-in-cheek or https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tongue%20in%20cheek)?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:04 am

After further consideration and study I hold to full preterism. The new heavens and earth is the enlightened conscious of the believer in Christ. The body is the temple. Enlightenment happens when we come into union with Christ. A Falling in love with love. While the lake of fire and judgment are over with the book of revelation describes the battle between the false ego self (carnal self) and the true angel self or the self united to Christ. God operates across time and uses the spiritual truths in the Bible to apply them where we are at today. The initial judgment Day is different for each individual. And can also be seen as something that happens daily. I wrote about mine here:

Image


The Holy Grail

The scales of justice balance in September
As Michael crushes Satan's head in death
Ego is cast out, the new self is in union with Christ
Flames of torment destroy the self of the old
I stand on this Holy Mountain of God crucified
Baptized into water, death, and fire, I'm made new
The cup of the Holy Grail infuses precious stones within
As I become drunk on the Beautiful cup of blood
Victory reigns at the core in the Holy land of Eden
In celebration of the marriage with the Lamb
I have fallen madly in love with love


The scales of justice in the painting above are my birthday sign "Libra". Satan is the ego being cast out.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Wed Feb 21, 2018 12:24 am

1 Tim.4:8

Berean Literal Bible
For bodily exercise is of a little profit, but godliness is profitable for everything, holding the promise of the present life and of the one coming.

New American Standard Bible
for bodily discipline is only of little profit, but godliness is profitable for all things, since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

King James Bible
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.

If the wicked will suffer no after death negative consequences & get the same blessedness as the righteous, then "godliness" in this life would not be"profitable" for the "life" that is coming after the "present life". Instead, 1 Tim.4:8 would be false since godliness in this life would be irrelevant & unprofitable as regards the next life. It would only be relevant to this life.

What is the "promise" (1 Tim.4:8) regarding the life to come after death? Eonian life (2 Tim.1:1; Titus 1:2, Heb.9:15, 1 Jn.2:25, Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30, etc). Which the wicked forfeit (Jn.3:36; Rom.2:1-16, etc).
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:08 am

Origen; wrote:If the wicked will suffer no after death negative consequences & get the same blessedness as the righteous, then "godliness" in this life would not be"profitable" for the "life" that is coming after the "present life". Instead, 1 Tim.4:8 would be false since godliness in this life would be irrelevant & unprofitable as regards the next life. It would only be relevant to this life.

That verse is NOT saying what your faulty logic is implying…
1Tim 4:8 For bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come.

The potential for loss could indeed be known in terms of the loss of rewards ACCORDING TO one’s *works* good or bad — thus there is nothing “false” as you postulate… you simply have not understood Paul, nor Jesus for that matter, consider… Mt 16:27; 25:45; 1Cor 3:13-15.

Origen; wrote:What is the "promise" (1 Tim.4:8) regarding the life to come after death? Eonian life (2 Tim.1:1; Titus 1:2, Heb.9:15, 1 Jn.2:25, Mk.10:30; Lk.18:30, etc). Which the wicked forfeit (Jn.3:36; Rom.2:1-16, etc).

The… “promise of the life that now is and of that which is about to be coming” didn’t need death to be in play for one to experience its promised blessedness. Such was/is the nature of “eternal life” i.e., the relevance of relationship based on knowledge, as per Jesus’ particular definition of “eonian life”…
Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Thus the disbelieving disobedient failed to grasp or see (<οὐκ ὄψεται> ouk oyetai) this blessedness, i.e., they failed to attain to the full knowledge of God in life… aka “eternal life”.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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davo
 
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:18 am

Davo:
The potential for loss could indeed be known in terms of the loss of rewards ACCORDING TO one’s *works*


Can you elaborate on this? What are these rewards?
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