The Evangelical Universalist Forum

General to Specific Doubts about God worse for Universalist?

Hi Prince :slight_smile:

That’s a lot of really complex questions - and I’m not sure I can do them justice, certainly not all in one go and on an internet forum :slight_smile: It might be better for you if you break up all your issues into bite-size chunks and start a separate thread on each, dealing with one at a time. Maybe:

However, I will attempt a really short shot-gun response to your points as best as I can:
why does God feel (and seem) so distant? - I don’t know. It is specific to you. How is your prayer/worship/moral/church/bible life? hashtag:feelings :slight_smile:
If God loves us, why all the games? - I don’t believe there are any games.
Why the myriad religions, - a mix of human choices, accidents of history and satanic influence
why the plausibility of evolution, - because evolution is probably true
why so much pain? - sin, human and satanic choices
What are we learning now? - many things, but each will have to be considered on a case-by-case basis and depends upon human choice
If ultimately God has to give grace - if we cant do it by ourselves, why waiting so long to pull up the curtain? Involves both God and human choice
why does God hold out? Why not Parousia? (Why am i so impatient? hehe) I think human choice affects the timing, I think God knows the best time
Aren’t doubts of this sort worse for the universalist? Not in my experience

Hi Prince…

I’m not sure I’d go with your… “letting us stew” and “all this crap”. I suspect these are more your subjective view or interpretation of your own experience/s. (??)

Yes I’d see that as “absurd” as God DOES “really loves us” as I believe is demonstrable from the bible. Further, IF “we all should have been born in Heaven” you’d think abortionists would be praised instead of being pilloried for doing plenty a favour.

Not in the sense you are understanding or using it. As I understand it… much of what Christendom haggles over on this issue with regards to mankind *in general *I as a pantelist understand speaks more to OC Israel in particular. The conclusions then from that are in a completely different ballpark.

I highly doubt it.

The older I get the less I worry about the “tangible” evidence feelings, as great as they can be. Life has convinced me God is good and I’ve learnt not assess (judge) God by what I do or don’t “feel”. In the Pentecostal era of my life I had some marvelous feeling-type experiences, most I accepted as genuine but also a number much less so; but either way God is good… that’s my bottom line anyway.

Thanks for all your replies!

Hehe, well maybe I’m VERY faithful (if to have faith requires doubt and pain).

Are all you at peace with God? I mean, when i set aside time to pray, I am terrified. Like God could do anything to me. I think that is my main problem: i am scared of God, even though I know universalism has to be the truth. I don’t know what the root of that fear is, that God is displeased with me, that God is so powerful, that the next life is inconceivable to me (and therefore terrifying? I don’t know why I can’t just feel that it will be heavenly)

I am also mad at God. It is God’s will that all of us will be saved, loved eternally… yet this truth is so mired in ambiguity, false religion, God’s hiddenness. This is what I mean by “playing games”. We are the lucky ones (I don’t know if anybody has statistics on how many universalists there are) but i suspect it is an infinitesimal sliver of the population. Is it disanalogous to compare this to a rich, loving human parent, who for some reason, is much removed from his/her children? Would we praise this parent, no matter how loving or how much they were eventually going to do for us, if for years they were quite inaccessible? Agreed, this isn’t a perfect analogy to Christian Universalism, but it isn’t too far-off-the-mark. The only way I can see around it is that this life must be of AWESOME IMPORTANCE in shaping our eternal lives, our eternal relationships, but given the wide variety of experiences (and terrors) this life can afford, it is hard to see how every person is deriving something so intrinsic in this life.

Of course, as Paul said, we might all forget these “birth pangs” in the joy of finally completely (or much less obstructedly) knowing God in the afterlife. And I HOPE and have FAITH :smiley: that this is true.

I know Thomas Talbott has written an essay 'The Oddity of Our Earthly Existence" (?) related to this problem… i should revisit that.

Hmmm, your “universalism” doesn’t sound too lucky to me :confused:

At a guess, I’d postulate your fear of God is due directly to a certain belief about God… albeit a terrifying one. That in my experience anyway has often been the fruit of evangelicalism — hence why I now see myself as post-evangelical.

Doubt is a lack of faith, THE faith that drives the Christian to search for deeper and more meaningful answers. :smiley:

Author kind of known.

Yep that’s pretty broad you could drive a 24-wheeler through it. I’m basically referring to the “religious” tradition and all that goes with that.

What are we learning now?

By contrasting things i think we are learning a great deal which we never would if God revealed himself. Good from evil, love from hate, faith from doubt, light from darkness etc. If God revealed himself the negative things would disappear and there would be no contrast and we would lose the benefit of the knowledge of good and evil. The best way we learn is through our experiences. Life may be like a building under construction but hopefully when the scaffolding comes off it will look beautiful.

Am I at peace with God? Mostly. But some fear seems healthy. And I too get angry at God time to time - though obviously that anger is always misplaced, since God is never to blame (one of the benefits of omnibenevolence). :slight_smile:

Davo: What do you mean by post evangelical?

Hmm i think my fear of God is related to the fact that so few people know or believe in Univ. Again, this could be our fault (faulty assumptions about God, too much sentimentality as opposed to brains+heart worship…), but certainly i think God, if being of a universalist disposition, would want to provide his children (namely all of us) with more evidence. So i cant help thinking that perhaps this God is an idol, or worse yet, non-existent…

But, i know down deep that without God (a God that loves and saves everyone) there’d b no point. So i believe and hope God forgives my needing of assurance. Im sure my terror comes not from God, but the one masquerading as him… the devil!

From observing humanity, I see that many people have somehow tricked themselves into believing that God doesn’t know their innermost thoughts. Oh, please will confess it, but the facts would argue otherwise. For example, when someone upholds the doctrine of Hell. Often times this person would pretend that it doesn’t bother them and make an excuse for God as to why it is OK. These people are actually scared of God and somehow have devised a way for them to pretend they love God. They claim on the surface “God’s way are higher than our ways” but internally ,they are eaten up alive, and when the thought comes in that Hell might not be real, they recoil, thinking that God won’t know that their innermost being abhors this Hell.

People do this with a lot of different things. They say one thing, but are eaten up on the inside with doubts. If they don’t acknowledge those doubts, then to them, they don’t exist. They are good little people.

If God knows us better than we know ourselves, than anything less than full honestly is a fruitless position to take. Mad at God? Then tell him! Hiding it will serve no one. Think God is wrong on something? Tell Him! You think your faking it will fool him? Of course you don’t, at least in word, but you must believe it will, since you won’t come out and challenge him. You must be bold, like Job. Yes, God is above reproach, but we must experience that in our relationship with him. If our inner being wants to challenge, we need to follow through with it, let him destroy our misconceptions so that we can truly call him Lord.

Can there ever be a real relationship if you can’t be honest and up front with someone? I know I would not want to be friends with ANYONE who was scared of me. Why? Because that isn’t friendship!

This may seem like a tangent, but I only say that because all too often I see (perhaps no one here) people give pat answers that frankly, are bogus.

I lived in pain every day before I became a universalist; and I still live in pain every day; and my pain got massively worse for about ten years; and in the past, oh, five years or so it has lessened to more of a grinding grumble in the background with occasional spikes. Did any of that have anything to do with my universalism? Not that I can see. Does any of that challenge my trust in God? Sure, absolutely it does. But that was true when I was an Arminian, and as far as I can tell it would still be true (maybe worse?!) if I had been or if I was now a Calvinist. Pain hurts, badly; annoying things annoy. Inconvenient things are necessarily going to be inconvenient, and as creatures we were always going to have to deal with some inconveniences. Would I complain less if the inconveniences were less? I like to think so, but recent social stereotypical snowflake activities give me reason to think I might be just as annoyed at much more minor inconveniences.

Whether I’m a universalist or not, I look to the cross to remember that God voluntarily suffers with me, and with everyone else who suffers. Whether I’m a universalist or not, I weather the pain until it subsides and I remember what the implications of my rationality are, and the implications of the reality of those people I love: that God exists, and ultimately that Christianity (particularly trinitarian Christianity) is true. If I can bring myself to do it while the pain is surging, I also remind myself that the existence of my enemies as people leads by the same implications to the same result! :wink:

Meanwhile, if I can remember to do it, I pour the pain I’m feeling on any parts of my soul that I should be repenting about, so the pain doesn’t go to waste. This often helps the pain go away faster, but even if it doesn’t I think the penitent exercise is important.

Awesome post, Jason. :sunglasses:

Back in 1989 when God touched my Life, I became aware of his intentions to save everybody and that nobody would be lost to him, not one. I was so overjoyed I was busting to tell the Whole World…BIG MISTAKE… there is a World full of Religious Pharisees out there :open_mouth:
Now I know how Jesus Felt when he stood amongst the Pharisees in the temple and they slapped him, hit him spat on him, as a group.
But it is nice to know the Gods plan of Universal Salvation and Reconciliation is still well on track and nothing will prevent it from coming about anyway. I don’t really hate anybody but I must confess I can hardly wait to see the looks on the Faces of the Religiouse Pharisees of today when they find out on Judgement day that they where the Goats, and why.

Grace and Peace to you all

Exactly who are the religious Pharisees of today? And will these “goats” end up with eternal punishment? (Matt 25:46 ESV)

Doesn’t the context of the “sheep” and the “goats” in Matthew 25, indicate that the sheep are those who minister to the needy, while the goats are those who neglect the needy?

Please forgive me I should read my Bible More, But I know what I felt when God touched me and I know there is no deception with him.
I believe that God is the Sheperd of the Goats as well as of the sheep.
Any Pinishment is not Eternal and at most would only be for an Era, Punishment is for the purpose of Restoration to Righteousness (the Restitution of all things)

I feel sure that If I studied and researched my bible out more I would find scripture to back up everything I said above, but I somehow seem to know all this anyway (without wishing to sound like a know it all) more like a knowing given to me, is the only way I can explain it.

Have the best day possible!

My Apolagies for not completely answering before the Question put to me In Regards to who are the Religiouse Pharisees of this day and age ?

I feel sure everybody who is a member of this Online Forum who believes in Gods plan of Universal Salvation of all, has already encountered or met these people for themselves, and knows exactly who I am describing here, by their Fruit (for want of a better word)

Have a Great day Everybody

You know, that is interesting… I mean, technically there is a third class of people there. We tend to only see two, Goats and Sheep, but the third class would be those who needed help. Whether this was your intention or not, this is the first time I realized this. Hmm, food for thought.

Actually, mathematically, it could still be only two groups, though highly unlikely… I see a third group now, to be honest.

This observation is good, and the realisation of it shows there is something other to this text than the usual “them/us” divide and all the conflated nonsense imposed upon it. With a similar train of thought in mind as you raise Gabe consider this…

It is interesting to note that this passage mentions three separate identities: the Lamb — “Christ”; “His Wife” — the firstfruit believers; THEN — “those who are called” — none other than the multitudes of humanity, from among whom come those who in faith respond to the Spirit and Bride’s invitation to “Come!”… this is an endless invitation (Rev 14:6). Those responding are the “offspring” of the great union and consummation of AD70 i.e., believers; NOT demigods BUT servant followers of Christ — believers.

Thus the consummation of a wedding is not its end but rather its most glorious of beginnings…

Again note… those designated by John’s “him who hears” from among “those who are called” are the continual offspring of the Church Victorious, both of the firstfruits of Heaven and of the living Church Triumphant in the Earth — and like their Heavenly forebears proclaim, “COME!” What a great message of reconciliation we have.

So where is the Church? In Heaven and in the Earth, for she is the one glorious ‘body of believers’ having differing expressions according to her habitation — though there be one Lord and Master over this corporate House that embraces either side of eternity.

Thank you, Gents, for this observation that these two texts portray three classes.