Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Geoffrey » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:28 pm

qaz wrote:Ultra-universalists Davo and Geoffrey, how do you explain 1 John 3:9?


Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.


I do not believe in light switches:

"Richard is saved, Linda is not saved, Anne is saved, Laura is not saved, Charles is not saved..."

"Hey! Didn't you hear? Charles accepted Jesus into his heart last night!"

"Oh, OK! So Charles is saved..."

Insofar as any man has been saved from his sins, he does not sin. Insofar as any man has not been saved from his sins, he does sin.

For example, if Mr. Charles (who accepted Jesus into his heart last night) is still getting drunk, he has not been saved from his drunkenness. If, on the other hand, he has put away the bottle, then he has been saved from his drunkenness.

Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die". I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.

Saved DOES mean "not sinning anymore". The less a man sins, the more saved he is. The more a man sins, the less saved he is.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eaglesway » Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:37 pm

Even as not an "ultra" universalist... John's statement must still be taken in context with his other words in his epistles and the scriptures as a whole. John describes sin as "If any man says He loves God and hates his brother he is in darknes still" and "the new command, which is the ancient one, "Love one another'". I believe, in John's paradigm, as presented across all His writing, he one who is loving is not "sinning", even tho we all stumble in many ways(James) "Love covers a multude of sins(also James).

How?

If the love of God is in us, we have forgiveness wherever we fall short. If not "all our righteousness is as filthy rags".

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 2)

"7Beloved, let us love one another, because love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.…." (1 John 4)
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:41 pm

Geoffrey said:
Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die". I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions


I might tend to agree with this... :D

Then Geoffrey said:
Saved DOES mean "not sinning anymore". The less a man sins, the more saved he is. The more a man sins, the less saved he is
.

My contention is that Christ took care of the sin problem between man and God. So man could not do it but Christ stood in the gap. So we may well keep on sinning (in various degrees) and yet Christ will have taken care of those very sins. The idea of us possibly not sinning any more is interesting. :shock:
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Thu Nov 10, 2016 7:52 pm

Dave B wrote:St. Paul?

Romans 2: There is no doubt at all that he will ‘render to every man according to his works’, and that means eternal life to those who, in patiently doing good, aim at the unseen (but real) glory and honour of the eternal world


Yes Dave, that is what Paul wrote:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:02 am

qaz wrote:Hyper-universalists Davo…


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I’m not a “hyper-universalist” — I don’t believe in the ‘hell’ of universalism; I’m an inclusive prêterist, better called a pantelist i.e., ALL is fulfilled BOTH eschatologically AND redemptively, with the “gehenna” of the gospels referring to Jerusalem’s AD70 inferno where the city/temple became a ‘lake of fire’.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:17 am

DaveB wrote:What does St. Paul say, right there in that verse?


Rom 2:7 to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian;"

It says they are **seeking** life eonian. It doesn't say they get it by doing good. Paul later shows they can't get it by doing good; that eonian life comes through what Christ did. Paul reveals that all men are sinners and wanting of the glory of God and that death passed through into all mankind and for that, all sin (Rom.5:12). Then Paul reveals the solution to the dilemma in Romans 5:18,19, how Christ has done what was necessary to undo mankind being made sinners.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:22 am

Geoffrey wrote:
qaz wrote:Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die". I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.


If people "go to heaven when they die," why is there a need for the resurrection of the dead? And if there is no resurrection, Paul says our faith is in vain and we perish. So if we go to heaven when we die, that must be a horrible thing that we still perish if there is no resurrection.

And why did Peter tell the audience in Acts that David has not gone to heaven? And why did John tell his readers that only Christ has gone to heaven if everyone goes to heaven when they die?
Just because God says He will save all mankind
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:05 am

davo wrote:
qaz wrote:Hyper-universalists Davo…


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I’m not a “hyper-universalist” — I don’t believe in the ‘hell’ of universalism; I’m an inclusive prêterist, better called a pantelist i.e., ALL is fulfilled BOTH eschatologically AND redemptively, with the “gehenna” of the gospels referring to Jerusalem’s AD70 inferno where the city/temple became a ‘lake of fire’.


Semantics aside, how do you explain 1 John?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:33 am

Eusebius wrote:
Geoffrey wrote:Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die". I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.


If people "go to heaven when they die," why is there a need for the resurrection of the dead? And if there is no resurrection, Paul says our faith is in vain and we perish. So if we go to heaven when we die, that must be a horrible thing that we still perish if there is no resurrection.

And why did Peter tell the audience in Acts that David has not gone to heaven? And why did John tell his readers that only Christ has gone to heaven if everyone goes to heaven when they die?


When we go to Heaven our salvation is not yet complete. In Heaven our souls will be purified and made sinless, but we still will not be complete because we will not in Heaven have our bodies back. We get our immortal bodies at the coming resurrection. At the resurrection of mankind and the transfiguration of the entire creation (both of which occur at the Second Coming) our salvation will be 100% complete. And that is the beginning, not the end. Then the real story starts. All of fallen history is a false start. We haven't even begun yet.

Before I answer your questions about Peter and John, please give me the chapter and verse of the passages you're thinking of. I want to make sure we're thinking of the same verses before answering.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Nov 11, 2016 12:00 pm

Geoffrey wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
Geoffrey wrote:Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die". I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.


If people "go to heaven when they die," why is there a need for the resurrection of the dead? And if there is no resurrection, Paul says our faith is in vain and we perish. So if we go to heaven when we die, that must be a horrible thing that we still perish if there is no resurrection.

And why did Peter tell the audience in Acts that David has not gone to heaven? And why did John tell his readers that only Christ has gone to heaven if everyone goes to heaven when they die?


When we go to Heaven our salvation is not yet complete. In Heaven our souls will be purified and made sinless, but we still will not be complete because we will not in Heaven have our bodies back. We get our immortal bodies at the coming resurrection. At the resurrection of mankind and the transfiguration of the entire creation (both of which occur at the Second Coming) our salvation will be 100% complete. And that is the beginning, not the end. Then the real story starts. All of fallen history is a false start. We haven't even begun yet.

Before I answer your questions about Peter and John, please give me the chapter and verse of the passages you're thinking of. I want to make sure we're thinking of the same verses before answering.


The Bible doesn't say our souls go to heaven when we die. It says they go to the unseen from where they came. The body returns to the soil from which it came and the spirit returns to God. Since God is everywhere, it doesn't have far to go to return to God. God breathed into Adam the breath of life. That was his spirit. Soul is the result of the coming together of the spirit and body. In Genesis it says God created Adam of the soil of the ground. When He gave Adam his spirit the bible says "he became a living soul." So when one dies their soul become nothing again. Soul is just the sensations. The Bible says the soul is in the blood. Cut off the blood supply to your foot and it "goes asleep." In effect you are cutting off soul to the foot or sensations.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:36 pm

Geoffrey wrote:For example, if Mr. Charles (who accepted Jesus into his heart last night) is still getting drunk, he has not been saved from his drunkenness. If, on the other hand, he has put away the bottle, then he has been saved from his drunkenness.

That's a good example, Geoff. One can be saved from a particular sin without yet having been saved from all sin.

Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die".

Correct.

I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.

I trust you mean that in the Orthodox way—that all people will end up in the same place or condition—that God's beloved children will experience God's consuming fire as God's love, whereas those who reject Him or even hate Him will experience God's consuming fire as God's wrath.

George MacDonald taught the same. In his novel Adela Cathcart, Book 2, he wrote:
"Whatever is not good and beautiful, is doomed by the very death that is in it; and when we find such thing in ourselves or other people, we may take comfort that these must be destroyed one day, even if it be by that form of divine love which appears as a consuming fire."
"But that is very dreadful too, is it not, uncle?"
"Yes, me dear. But there is a refuge from it; and then the fear proves a friend."
"What refuge?"
"God himself. If you go close up to him, his spirit will become your spirit, and you will need no fire then. You will find that that which is fire to them that are afar off, is a mighty graciousness to them that are nigh. They are both the same thing.


C.S. Lewis, who considered GMD to be his mentor, in The Last Battle of the Narnian Chronicles, wrote that when everyone went to Aslan's country, most rejoiced. But the black dwarves who were in the stable when they were taken imagined that they were still in the stable. When they were offered choice food, they thought they were being offered rotten turnips from the stable, and so they rejected it. When they were offered choice wine, they thought they were being offered urine from the cattle troughs, and they rejected it with disgust.

Geoffrey wrote:When we go to Heaven our salvation is not yet complete...

I agree.

In Heaven our souls will be purified and made sinless, but we still will not be complete because we will not in Heaven have our bodies back. We get our immortal bodies at the coming resurrection. At the resurrection of mankind and the transfiguration of the entire creation (both of which occur at the Second Coming) our salvation will be 100% complete.


In general, I am far more in agreement with Orthodox thought than I am with the wide variety of positions taken in this forum, such as those taken by fundamentalists and preterists. However, I do not believe that our minds (or "souls" or "spirits" if you prefer) survive death and go somewhere after death. I believe our minds are an integral part of our whole being and cannot be separated from our body. That is why Paul said in 1 Cor 15, that if there is no resurrection we might as well eat and drink, implying that all we'll have we'll get in this life. Also, with respect to the resurrection, he said, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, were are of all people most to be pitied." (1 Cor 15:19). As Qaz pointed out, is there any essential purpose in the resurrection if we go to heaven at death? You say that getting our bodies again will make us more complete. But why not be content to live eternally as disembodied spirits? No, we are a complete entity. Our body and our mind are but two aspects of this entity. When we die, we are dead. And we'll stay dead until God or his Son raises us from death.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:53 pm

Well, the legendary songwriter Leonard Cohen - passed away. I'll share his most famous religious song: :D



or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrLk4vdY28Q

And another song, just filled my mind. Reminding me that I'm becoming a Holy Spirit, filled artist. It's a really cool place to be. :D



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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH2w6Oxx0kQ
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Nov 11, 2016 4:48 pm

qaz wrote:Semantics aside, how do you explain 1 John?

But that’s the whole problem qaz… too many people ignore semantics and consequently make all manner of wild and incorrect generalisations. That said, I think Geoffrey comes close to the mark…
Geoffrey wrote:Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die". I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.

Saved DOES mean "not sinning anymore". The less a man sins, the more saved he is. The more a man sins, the less saved he is.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:19 pm

Davo, so what do you think sin unto death is?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:59 pm

qaz wrote:Davo, so what do you think sin unto death is?

There are a few options, but it could well simply be that John’s “sin unto death” references a known criminal offense where that under Jewish law ‘the death penalty’ was the ultimate outcome, i.e., the “sin unto death” was notably any capital offense, as per the likes of…
Deut 21:22 If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree…

I think this is the most direct and least complicated understanding of John’s “sin unto death”.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:10 pm

davo wrote:
qaz wrote:Semantics aside, how do you explain 1 John?

But that’s the whole problem qaz… too many people ignore semantics and consequently make all manner of wild and incorrect generalisations. That said, I think Geoffrey comes close to the mark…
Geoffrey wrote:Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die". I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.

Saved DOES mean "not sinning anymore". The less a man sins, the more saved he is. The more a man sins, the less saved he is.


Well, you have published some material about the different ideas about salvation :D So I think it could be beneficial if you would briefly expound on those different ideas. :D If possible. :|

My idea is not to put you on the spot , but to maybe expose a different way of looking at this subject :oops:
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:44 pm

davo wrote:
qaz wrote:Davo, so what do you think sin unto death is?

There are a few options, but it could well simply be that John’s “sin unto death” references a known criminal offense where that under Jewish law ‘the death penalty’ was the ultimate outcome, i.e., the “sin unto death” was notably any capital offense, as per the likes of…
Deut 21:22 If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree…

I think this is the most direct and least complicated understanding of John’s “sin unto death”.


I don't think that interpretation works. How does that interpretation fit with John's statement that we shouldn't pray for forgiveness of sin unto death?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Nov 11, 2016 7:52 pm

I'll go on to post this link:http://www.pantelism.com/redemption/redemption.html

Good stuff :D
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby LLC » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:27 pm

Eusebius, In your post, you say that the soul becomes nothing again. One cannot create something out of nothing. All that God has created comes from Himself. So I would say that the Spirit God gave to Adam, or mankind, would be His own Spirit.

qaz, I tend to agree with Davo on the point that we mustn't read into Scripture something that is not there. I believe only God and the people that have already left this earth, know what happens in the afterlife. In reference to your question to Davo about the sin leading to death, my guess would be that we need to hit rock bottom sometimes in order to come to our senses. For example, if one is persistently sinning, forgiveness has no effect on them. Receiving the full consequences of their sin may be the best thing for them.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:38 pm

qaz wrote:
davo wrote:
qaz wrote:Davo, so what do you think sin unto death is?

There are a few options, but it could well simply be that John’s “sin unto death” references a known criminal offense where that under Jewish law ‘the death penalty’ was the ultimate outcome, i.e., the “sin unto death” was notably any capital offense, as per the likes of…
Deut 21:22 If a man has committed a sin deserving of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree…

I think this is the most direct and least complicated understanding of John’s “sin unto death”.


I don't think that interpretation works. How does that interpretation fit with John's statement that we shouldn't pray for forgiveness of sin unto death?

How so??

I should imagine it’s pretty obvious IF one considers that USUSALLY pardon is associated with “forgiveness” THEN John would likely being saying *don’t think you can use “forgiveness” to excuse away certain consequences of certain actions*… can you not see that??
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Sat Nov 12, 2016 3:17 am

Paidion wrote:
Geoffrey wrote:For example, if Mr. Charles (who accepted Jesus into his heart last night) is still getting drunk, he has not been saved from his drunkenness. If, on the other hand, he has put away the bottle, then he has been saved from his drunkenness.

That's a good example, Geoff. One can be saved from a particular sin without yet having been saved from all sin.

Saved does NOT in this context mean "going to Heaven when you die".

Correct.

I believe that every single person since Christ's death on the cross goes to Heaven when he dies, no exceptions.

I trust you mean that in the Orthodox way—that all people will end up in the same place or condition—that God's beloved children will experience God's consuming fire as God's love, whereas those who reject Him or even hate Him will experience God's consuming fire as God's wrath.

George MacDonald taught the same. In his novel Adela Cathcart, Book 2, he wrote:
"Whatever is not good and beautiful, is doomed by the very death that is in it; and when we find such thing in ourselves or other people, we may take comfort that these must be destroyed one day, even if it be by that form of divine love which appears as a consuming fire."
"But that is very dreadful too, is it not, uncle?"
"Yes, me dear. But there is a refuge from it; and then the fear proves a friend."
"What refuge?"
"God himself. If you go close up to him, his spirit will become your spirit, and you will need no fire then. You will find that that which is fire to them that are afar off, is a mighty graciousness to them that are nigh. They are both the same thing.


C.S. Lewis, who considered GMD to be his mentor, in The Last Battle of the Narnian Chronicles, wrote that when everyone went to Aslan's country, most rejoiced. But the black dwarves who were in the stable when they were taken imagined that they were still in the stable. When they were offered choice food, they thought they were being offered rotten turnips from the stable, and so they rejected it. When they were offered choice wine, they thought they were being offered urine from the cattle troughs, and they rejected it with disgust.

Geoffrey wrote:When we go to Heaven our salvation is not yet complete...

I agree.

In Heaven our souls will be purified and made sinless, but we still will not be complete because we will not in Heaven have our bodies back. We get our immortal bodies at the coming resurrection. At the resurrection of mankind and the transfiguration of the entire creation (both of which occur at the Second Coming) our salvation will be 100% complete.


In general, I am far more in agreement with Orthodox thought than I am with the wide variety of positions taken in this forum, such as those taken by fundamentalists and preterists. However, I do not believe that our minds (or "souls" or "spirits" if you prefer) survive death and go somewhere after death. I believe our minds are an integral part of our whole being and cannot be separated from our body. That is why Paul said in 1 Cor 15, that if there is no resurrection we might as well eat and drink, implying that all we'll have we'll get in this life. Also, with respect to the resurrection, he said, "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, were are of all people most to be pitied." (1 Cor 15:19). As Qaz pointed out, is there any essential purpose in the resurrection if we go to heaven at death? You say that getting our bodies again will make us more complete. But why not be content to live eternally as disembodied spirits? No, we are a complete entity. Our body and our mind are but two aspects of this entity. When we die, we are dead. And we'll stay dead until God or his Son raises us from death.


You mean God is actually going to do something against people's so-called free will? :D
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:10 am

"Believe in yourself and all that you are. Know that there is something inside you that is greater than any obstacle."-- Christian D. Larson


Just remember, fellow Christians :!: No matter how bad things seem :!: Never give up that ship :!: :lol:



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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:31 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
"Believe in yourself and all that you are. Know that there is something inside you that is greater than any obstacle."-- Christian D. Larson


I think I'd rather believe in Christ and rest on what He has accomplished for us. He is greater than any obstacle.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Nov 12, 2016 9:47 am

Eusebius wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
"Believe in yourself and all that you are. Know that there is something inside you that is greater than any obstacle."-- Christian D. Larson


I think I'd rather believe in Christ and rest on what He has accomplished for us. He is greater than any obstacle.


I think both are true. If I understand TV evangelist Joel Osteen right. What is inside of us, I interpret as the Holy Spirit. All that we are, is really the result of God - via Christ. And we need to honor, the image of God within us. :D

“If one dream dies, dream another dream. If you get knocked down, get back up and go again.” – Joel Osteen

Don’t just accept whatever comes your way in life. You were born to win; you were born for greatness; you were created to be a champion in life.” – Joel Osteen

“You were not created to just get by with an average, unrewarding, or unfulfilling life. God created you to leave your mark on this generation.” – Joel Osteen

“Keep in mind, just because you don’t know the answer doesn’t mean that one does not exist. You simply haven’t discovered it yet.” – Joel Osteen


Image

Actually, he's just taking the same Old Testament and New Testament stories and giving them a different beat. :lol:

Image



or

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:56 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
"Believe in yourself and all that you are. Know that there is something inside you that is greater than any obstacle."-- Christian D. Larson


Eusebius wrote: I think I'd rather believe in Christ and rest on what He has accomplished for us. He is greater than any obstacle.


HFPZ: I think both are true. If I understand TV evangelist Joel Osteen right. What is inside of us, I interpret as the Holy Spirit. All that we are, is really the result of God - via Christ. And we need to honor, the image of God within us. :D


“If one dream dies, dream another dream. If you get knocked down, get back up and go again.” – Joel Osteen

Don’t just accept whatever comes your way in life. You were born to win; you were born for greatness; you were created to be a champion in life.” – Joel Osteen

“You were not created to just get by with an average, unrewarding, or unfulfilling life. God created you to leave your mark on this generation.” – Joel Osteen

“Keep in mind, just because you don’t know the answer doesn’t mean that one does not exist. You simply haven’t discovered it yet.” – Joel Osteen

[/quote]

Nice thoughts but they aren't in the Bible. I agree with you (shocking, I know :-) ) that what we are is the result of God.
Sure we should strive to be good people and helpful to others. But Joel is just a name it claim it preacher. I think the apostle Paul would be considered a failure under his paradigm. I think Joel just wants more of his sheeple to go out and get more money so he can get it from them. Neither Christ nor Paul would build a huge mansion like he lives in.
The gospel isn't about pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. It is about "if you are poor, don't aspire to be rich." That's what Paul said. Paul says when one aspires to be rich they fall into a trial and trap swamping men in destruction.

Here is one of his houses in Florida:

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby LLC » Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:26 pm

Eusebius wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
"Believe in yourself and all that you are. Know that there is something inside you that is greater than any obstacle."-- Christian D. Larson


I think I'd rather believe in Christ and rest on what He has accomplished for us. He is greater than any obstacle.


Eusebius, from your post above, I get the feeling that you have something against man being able to accomplish things. As Psalms 8:4-6 says, "What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that you visit him? For you have made him a little lower than the angels, And you have crowned him with glory and honor. You have made him to have dominion over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet." Man is made of the substance of God, that is His Spirit. What else can we be made of? According to you, our spirits come from nothing. I suppose God created us out of thin air? Yes, we are able to accomplish great things because as HFPZ quoted above, "there is something inside of you that is greater than any obstacle." To better understand the Scriptures, we must understand the terms being used. Christ means " the anointed one" and from what I understand, the "anointed one" is anyone who obeys and follows the Spirit of God that is inside the heart and mind. In this case there are many who are "Christ", and they have done many a great work. But, we must also come to "Christ" as an individual in order to carry on the work. In other words, each of us must learn to stand on our own two feet and walk with God as well.

On another note, there is nothing wrong with having money as long as our riches come about through honest hard work. There are many examples in the Bible of men of great wealth, including Abraham, Joseph, David etc. In the picture that you show of the man's mansion, I would say that many people were paid to build it. So, in this, jobs were created and families were fed as a result.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:07 pm

I think the property gospel, where you get richer by giving to the preacher - is a false gospel.

But minister Larry Ollison, is not about giving to the preacher. And he does quote verses, like:

“by His stripes we are healed”

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.


Image

Of course, A.E. Knoch (and other ministers), will have a different understanding - regarding these verses. And Larry Ollison does accept donations - like all Internet, TV and radio evangelists. But you don't have to give to his ministry, to enjoy benefits - in the here and now :lol:

Image

Being rich is not necessarily a curse or obstacle. It depends on what one does, with the money (i.e. helping the poor, Christian outreach, etc.). And your attachment to money and this world. After all, we did have rich Jewish leaders, in the Old testament. And a rich Christian, who helped with Christ's burial (if I remember correctly).

How much of Donald Trump's money, goes to Christian outreach and/or charity concerns :?: :lol:

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:21 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:I think the property gospel, where you get richer by giving to the preacher - is a false gospel.

But minister Larry Ollison, is not about giving to the preacher. And he does quote verses, like:

“by His stripes we are healed”

For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sake he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich.


Of course, A.E. Knoch (and other ministers), will have a different understanding - regarding these verses.

Being rich is not necessarily a curse or obstacle. It depends on what one does, with the money (i.e. helping the poor, Christian outreach, etc.). And your attachment to money and this world. After all, we did have rich Jewish leaders, in the Old testament. And a rich Christian, who helped with Christ's burial (if I remember correctly).

How much of Donald Trump's money, goes to Christian outreach and/or charity concerns :?: :lol:


Donald Trump doesn't concern me. He is not a minister.
If 2 Corinthians 8:9, which you quote above, is about Christ making believers millionaires by becoming poor, we'd all be financially rich.
Paul talks about "the nation's riches" which are not financial riches but rather spiritual riches.

Yes, and rightly so that A.E. Knoch would have a different understanding which is more scriptural.

Here are the verses in Paul's epistles concerning riches:

Rom_2:4 Or are you despising the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience, being ignorant that the kindness of God is leading you to repentance?
Rom_9:23 it is that He should also be making known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He makes ready before for glory -"
Rom_11:12 Now if their offense is the world's riches and their discomfiture the nations' riches, how much rather that which fills them!"
Rom_11:33 O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"
2Co_8:2 for, in a test of much affliction, the superabundance of their joy and the corresponding depth of their poverty superabounds to the riches of their generosity,
Eph_1:7 in Whom we are having the deliverance through His blood, the forgiveness of offenses in accord with the riches of His grace,
Eph_1:18 the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, for you to perceive what is the expectation of His calling, and what the riches of the glory of the enjoyment of His allotment among the saints,
Eph_2:7 that, in the oncoming eons, He should be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus."
Eph_3:8 To me, less than the least of all saints, was granted this grace: to bring the evangel of the untraceable riches of Christ to the nations,
Eph_3:16 that He may be giving you, in accord with the riches of His glory, to be made staunch with power, through His spirit, in the man within,
Php_4:19 Now my God shall be filling your every need in accord with His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
Col_1:27 to whom God wills to make known what are the glorious riches of this secret among the nations, which is: Christ among you, the expectation of glory"
Col_2:2 that their hearts may be consoled, being united in love, and to all the riches of the assurance of understanding, unto a realization of the secret of the God and Father, of Christ,
1Ti_6:17 Those who are rich in the current eon be charging not to be haughty, nor yet to rely on the dubiousness of riches, but on God, Who is tendering us all things richly for our enjoyment;"

Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains. In this sense, I would take the riches of Christ over all the financial riches of the world.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:24 pm

Eusebius wrote:
Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains.


Agreed. I just like both. And see no conflict. :lol:

Heck, one man I admire - is Ben Hart. He's a direct response copywriter and marketer - now retired. And a devote Christian. And former Presidential speech writer. But he had talent for direct response copywriting. And made millions in royalties. If God gives someone a talent, should they not use it? Or should the Christian, just bury the talent or talents :?:
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:26 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains.


Agreed. I just like both. And see no conflict. :lol:


1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:29 pm

Eusebius wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains.


Agreed. I just like both. And see no conflict. :lol:


1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."


In Ben's case - sited above. Money is not his main goal. He did what he did, because:

    He liked doing it.
    He was good at it.

But if he can make a lot of money at it. Or God's gifts a lot of money. Should we decline it? It's a side benefit. Like I shared before.

Heck, one man I admire - is Ben Hart. He's a direct response copywriter and marketer - now retired. And a devote Christian. And former Presidential speech writer. But he had talent for direct response copywriting. And made millions in royalties. If God gives someone a talent, should they not use it? Or should the Christian, just bury the talent or talents :?:


Anyway, I know about Ben's Christian background. Since I was a member of his online marketing training - when he was active. Here is a full background at http://benhartmarketing.com/about-ben-hart.htm

Ben Hart's letters, ads and websites have generated more than $600,000,000 in sales, donations and membership fees during his 23 years in the business. Ben's books on marketing include:

· The Internet Money Explosion
· How To Write Blockbuster Sales Letters
· Automatic Marketing
· Fund Your Cause With Direct Mail

Ben graduated in 1982 cum laude from Dartmouth College, where he majored in English literature. Hart wrote his first book, Poisoned Ivy, during his senior year, which was a bestseller when it was published by Stein and Day in 1984. Poisoned Ivy was the first book to identify the "political correctness" problem that infects academia.

Poisoned Ivy received excellent reviews, and was featured on the front page of The Washington Post "Style" section. Ben went on to write a second book, Faith & Freedom: The Christian Roots of American Liberty, that was published in 1988. This is a history book that makes the case that America's political traditions and institutions have their origins in Judaism and Christianity. The book definitively refutes the notion advanced by the American Civil Liberties Union that religious faith threatens civil liberty. The book shows that the Judeo-Christian tradition not only supports civil liberty, but is the source of our civil liberties.

Hart has written speeches for many famous political figures. He worked on President Ronald Reagan's 1984 re-election campaign and George H.W. Bush's 1988 campaign for the Presidency.

Hart has written scores of articles for The Wall Street Journal, National Review, Policy Review and many other publications. Hart's pioneering direct marketing work has been featured in Direct Marketing Magazine, DM News, Who's Mailing What and numerous highly regarded textbooks on direct mail marketing.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby LLC » Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:59 am

Eusebius wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains.


Agreed. I just like both. And see no conflict. :lol:


1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."


I believe the root of all evil is man's heart and it's desire for other gods, be it money, fame, power over others, sex, drugs, etc.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:40 am

Eusebius wrote:
Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains.


1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."[/quote]

LLC: I believe the root of all evil is man's heart and it's desire for other gods, be it money, fame, power over others, sex, drugs, etc.


The apostle Paul says the root of all evils is the fondness for money. I think I'll just trust the inspired word.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:45 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains.


Agreed. I just like both. And see no conflict. :lol:

Heck, one man I admire - is Ben Hart. He's a direct response copywriter and marketer - now retired. And a devote Christian. And former Presidential speech writer. But he had talent for direct response copywriting. And made millions in royalties. If God gives someone a talent, should they not use it? Or should the Christian, just bury the talent or talents :?:


Of course if God gives someone a talent they should use it. But Paul told us that if we are poor we should not try to get riches because when one does that they are tried on all sides and causes one to be swamped in destruction. I have a friend who is extremely wealthy and who is Christian. His dad had a successful business and gave each child of his an equal share when he sold the business. My friend was good at investing and grew his money. But that is just the gift God have his dad and him. Sure, I'd like to have a few million bucks. But I am far richer in Christ than Bill Gates. Bill, if he is not in Christ is the pauper, not me.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:50 am

I think the wisest counsel ever given - regarding both material things and gifts of the spirit - is this: :D

Matthew 6:33 King James Version (KJV) 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


Image

"Chase your passion, not your pension."-- Denis Waitley


But I don't think Joel Osteen misses the boat - all that much. The most important element, is to be Christian and believe in Christ. Then expect good things from God, as his child. It's Joel Osteen - as I understand him - in a nutshell :!: :D

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This is from the Sunil Bali blog:

Boss: Do you believe in the afterlife?

Employee: No I don't, because there's no proof.

Boss: So if I could prove to you that there is life after death, would you believe in the afterlife?

Employee: If you could prove it 100%, then I would believe in life after death.

Boss: OK. Here's the proof. After you left early yesterday to go to your Uncle's funeral, he came here looking for you to go and play golf.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Sun Nov 13, 2016 10:01 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:I think the wisest counsel ever given - regarding both material things and gifts of the spirit - is this: :D

Matthew 6:33 King James Version (KJV) 33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


Image

"Chase your passion, not your pension."-- Denis Waitley


But I don't think Joel Osteen misses the boat - all that much. The most important element, is to be Christian and believe in Christ. Then expect good things from God, as his child. It's Joel Osteen - as I understand him - in a nutshell :!: :D

Image

This is from the Sunil Bali blog:

Boss: Do you believe in the afterlife?

Employee: No I don't, because there's no proof.

Boss: So if I could prove to you that there is life after death, would you believe in the afterlife?

Employee: If you could prove it 100%, then I would believe in life after death.

Boss: OK. Here's the proof. After you left early yesterday to go to your Uncle's funeral, he came here looking for you to go and play golf.


As I get older I have come to believe in the hearafter.
Yep, I walk into a room and wonder, "What am I hear after?"
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby LLC » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:17 am

Eusebius wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
Financial riches are dubious at best and fleeting. The riches of Christ is what remains.


1Ti_6:10 For a root of all of the evils is the fondness for money, which some, craving, were led astray from the faith and try themselves on all sides with much pain."


LLC: I believe the root of all evil is man's heart and it's desire for other gods, be it money, fame, power over others, sex, drugs, etc.


The apostle Paul says the root of all evils is the fondness for money. I think I'll just trust the inspired word.[/quote]

I think I'll trust in the truth that God has put before our very eyes. Not all evils are the result of a fondness for money. The person who's desire for sex consumes him to the point that he goes out and has affair after affair, or even worse yet, goes and rapes someone else is not seeking money. The person who covets his neighbor's spouse and so seeks to kill said spouse is not after money. A person who is jealous of another because the other receives more attention and therefore hates said person again has nothing to do with money. As I find the Scriptures to be instructive, I do not worship them as the ONLY truth. I worship the Spirit of God inside the heart and mind that allows me to see the truth in all things, whether it be Scripture, the world around me, other writings etc. etc.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eaglesway » Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:42 am

Neither Christ nor Paul would build a huge mansion like he lives in.


I agree entirely, and this (to me) proves that, along with Matthew 25 and James 4, that what a person does with riches, should they find themselves in possession of them, tells the story of their heart's worship of God or idolatry of self. If riches are received as the result of the gospel, perhaps that tells the story of whether it is really the gospel, or some kind of spiritual Amway where the person at the top of the pyramid receives the most, instead of giving the most, and the people at the bottom carry the weight of the prosperity of the few at the top who are trotted out to give "testimonies" that will encourage the people at the bottom to carry on, feeding a money machine that ought to be pouring the benefits back down to the members in need, those "inglorious" and unseen people who are struggling with burdens that ought to be ministered to out of the abundance.

"Go your way, be warmed and filled, and give so that you will be given unto, but not by me- "God will do it for you, if your faith is great enough".

It is not what men accomplish, but what they do with their accomplishments, that reveals the motives for their work. "I am He that tries the reins and the hearts"... "every mans work will be tested by fire, because the Day will reveal it, whether it be wood, hay or stubble, gold silver or precious stone....if any man's work is burned up, he will lose his reward, but he will be saved, but as one passing through the flames."
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:49 pm

In a past life (i.e. past phase of my life), I was an Independent Catholic bishop. And I was invited to a gathering, of independent Catholic bishops and priests. And they were having a couple of services.

And my Holy Fools tradition, was apparent back then. And I kept asking these questions:

    Where's the snakes?
    Is anyone bringing the snakes?

And the leader finally said jokingly,
"if he comes to the service with a snake - ever a rubber one - I'm throwing him out."


But the bible says this:

Mark 16:18 ►

New International Version

they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


And there are Pentecostal churches, that do have snake handling services. Let this short video demonstrates (also, notice the fire handling):



or

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwBVcsWYJd8


What does everyone think :?: :lol:
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:41 pm

Hi Randy, you wrote:But the bible says this:

Mark 16:18 ►

New International Version

they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."


Randy, Mark 16:9-20 is not in the earliest manuscripts. These words are also in a different style from the rest of Mark. They are believed to have been an addition. However, Mark's "gospel," without these verses, is incomplete. An alternative ending exists:

And they reported all the things that had been commanded them briefly to the companions of Peter. And after this Jesus himself also sent forth by them from the East even unto the West the holy and incorruptible message of eternal salvation.


See the following:

http://www.bible-researcher.com/endmark.html
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Nov 13, 2016 3:48 pm

Image

Thanks, Paidion. I will study the link. Anyone else have input on the snakes, and the contemporary, snake handling services :?: ;)

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:08 pm

Randy wrote:
And there are Pentecostal churches, that do have snake handling services. Let this short video demonstrates (also, notice the fire handling):
and said:
What does everyone think :?: :lol:


Crazy. :lol:

You're pushing buttons my friend.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Sun Nov 13, 2016 4:46 pm

Paidion, a common question evangelicals ask is, "Have you been saved?". I've even seen it on a bumper sticker. How would you respond?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:13 pm

Hi qaz,

I would probably give the same answer that Metropolitan Kallistos of the Orthodox Church gave when, in a railway station, someone fixed him with a piercing gaze and asked, "Are you saved?" He gives an interesting account of his experience here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjHGtCHyBrU

His reply was, "By the grace of God, I am being saved."

Salvation from sin is a life-long process. No one is yet saved from sin.

But those who ask, "Are you saved?" or "Have you been saved?" usually have in mind, "Have you been saved from hell?" which they believe is brought about when you "accept Christ as your personal Savior" or "trust in the finished work of Christ" or "say the sinner's prayer," etc. There are quite a variety of formulae that different ones consider necessary in order to be saved from hell.

However, we might ask: Did the angel that spoke to Joseph tell him to call the child's name "Jesus" (savior) because He would save his people from hell? Or did he tell him to call the child's name "Jesus" (savior) because He would save his people from their sins? Clearly, it is the latter. (Matt 1:21)
Being saved from sin takes time, indeed, a life time. But it will eventually be completed. The apostle Paul wrote:

I am persuaded of this, that the One who began a good work in you will continue the process of completion until the day of Jesus Christ.(Philippians 1:6)
Paidion

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Sun Nov 13, 2016 6:18 pm

Paidion, so you don't think the salvation spoken of in the Bible is salvation from postmortem punishment?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Mon Nov 14, 2016 6:32 am

qaz wrote:Paidion, a common question evangelicals ask is, "Have you been saved?". I've even seen it on a bumper sticker. How would you respond?

I don't speak for Paidion but there is a present salvation:
Eph_2:5 (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!)"
Eph_2:8 For in grace, through faith, are you saved, and this is not out of you; it is God's approach present,

There is a current "being saved"
1Co_15:2 through which also you are being saved, if you are retaining what I said in bringing the evangel to you, outside and except you believe feignedly."

There is a future salvation:
Rom_5:9 Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him."
Rom_5:10 For if, being enemies, we were conciliated to God through the death of His Son, much rather, being conciliated, we shall be saved in His life."

Therefore, I am saved, I am presently being saved and I will be saved.
Last edited by Eusebius on Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Mon Nov 14, 2016 8:51 am

qaz wrote:Paidion, so you don't think the salvation spoken of in the Bible is salvation from postmortem punishment?


No, I don't. To be saved from such without a change of character would lead to a deepening of the evil of their beings.

There is much in the New Testament about the reconciliation of all people to God, but nothing about people being saved from any "postmortem punishment" because any such "punishment" will be administered, not out of vengeance or penalty, but out of God's love in order to bring about the necessary regeneration of their character and to reconciliation with Himself. One should never desire to be saved from the loving correction that God will provide. He will never give anyone any more discomfort than is absolutely necessary in order bring about their repentance and regeneration.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Mon Nov 14, 2016 9:49 am

Paidion, I like your theory of salvation a lot. It's so different from the retributive idea of divine punishment I grew up believing.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Jonny95 » Mon Nov 14, 2016 10:48 am

As Eusebius points out, within scripture salvation is discussed in past, present and future tense. To say "I have been saved" is not incorrect. To say "I am being saved" is not incorrect either. Nor is it to say "I will be saved".

Where the problem comes is when people over-emphasise one or two of these to the neglect of another. Within evangelical Christianity, it's common to focus too much on the past tense version - "I have been saved". To a slightly lesser extent, the future tense is also a part of it - "I will be saved". What's missing is the focus on the present tense and I think that largely comes down to two ideas; one being that salvation, as people in this thread have referred to, means to be saved from (eternal) post-mortem punishment, and the second (very much related) being penal substitution - i.e. salvation is simply the legal fiction of us no longer having our sins counted against us because Christ has (supposedly) taken the punishment.

As such, many are willing to focus on the past tense ("my 'debt' has been paid because of Jesus' death") and the future tense ("I will no longer be punished on the day of judgement because of this") but not so much on our ongoing salvation. To live a holy life is simply to make certain of our future salvation or to bring others to "believing in Christ's atonement". If salvation in the present tense does become a topic of discussion, it's often to denounce the idea that we're saved by works.

For what it's worth, I have no problem, theoretically, with the idea that part of our salvation is being saved from post-mortem punishment. What I take issue with is the notion that it's the main 'point' behind being saved. As the angel says to Mary in Matthew 1 "you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." It's our sin itself that we need to be saved from, not the punishment for it.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Mon Nov 14, 2016 11:21 am

Jonny95 wrote:As Eusebius points out, within scripture salvation is discussed in past, present and future tense. To say "I have been saved" is not incorrect. To say "I am being saved" is not incorrect either. Nor is it to say "I will be saved".

Where the problem comes is when people over-emphasise one or two of these to the neglect of another. Within evangelical Christianity, it's common to focus too much on the past tense version - "I have been saved". To a slightly lesser extent, the future tense is also a part of it - "I will be saved". What's missing is the focus on the present tense and I think that largely comes down to two ideas; one being that salvation, as people in this thread have referred to, means to be saved from (eternal) post-mortem punishment, and the second (very much related) being penal substitution - i.e. salvation is simply the legal fiction of us no longer having our sins counted against us because Christ has (supposedly) taken the punishment.

As such, many are willing to focus on the past tense ("my 'debt' has been paid because of Jesus' death") and the future tense ("I will no longer be punished on the day of judgement because of this") but not so much on our ongoing salvation. To live a holy life is simply to make certain of our future salvation or to bring others to "believing in Christ's atonement". If salvation in the present tense does become a topic of discussion, it's often to denounce the idea that we're saved by works.

For what it's worth, I have no problem, theoretically, with the idea that part of our salvation is being saved from post-mortem punishment. What I take issue with is the notion that it's the main 'point' behind being saved. As the angel says to Mary in Matthew 1 "you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." It's our sin itself that we need to be saved from, not the punishment for it.


Right. There is not one verse in all the Bible that says "believe in Jesus in order to save yourself from eternal hell fire and damnation."

People wrongly read into Romans 5:9 where it says we shall be saved from indignation" to mean "eternal torment." God is right to be indignant toward sin and rebellion. But it is a corrective indignant as a loving father corrects His children.
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