Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

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Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:59 pm

Some Universalists hold to the notion that all mankind have free will and God works with them until they finally give in. I believe this is Tom Talbot's position. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Some Universalists hold to the notion that mankind have a will (the Bible calls it the will of the flesh) but it is not free. They believe God has already done everything through the death, entombment and resurrection of His Son to save all mankind.

For instance, let us look at a couple of passages attesting to what God and Christ have done and how that affects all mankind:

"for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras), for which I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the nations in knowledge and truth." (1Ti 2:3-7)

Notice the bolded "for" above. God will have all mankind to be saved FOR, or, the reason why this is so is because . . . .(and the reasons given). Notice that absent from the reasons given is "If mankind just does their part"? Rather, because all mankind have been ransomed, all mankind must be freed from bondage to sin and death and must be freed into God's salvation.

Likewise in Romans 5:18 & 19 we have:

"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying." For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Rom 5:18-19)

Notice two men and two outcomes which affect all mankind solely due to one act each man did. Notice all mankind are what I like to call, neutral recipients of what Adam and Christ did. Mankind does not have to use their will to get what they get from Adam's one act and neither does mankind have to use their will to get what they will get from Christ's one act. They all just get what they will get. That's Paul's whole point.

The will of the flesh is enmity to God and cannot please God (Romans 8). Man's will is the will of the flesh (John 1:3; Eph.2:3).

So, therefore, if man has a free will, and that will is enmity to God and cannot please God, God obviously knows this and so knows His will must overwhelm man's will.

People don't like to be told God is going to make them do something they don't want to do. Tough. Too bad. Sorry you feel that way. Major hint: This isn't your universe and you don't make the rules. :D
Just because God says He will save all mankind
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby St. Michael » Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:22 pm

People don't like to be told God is going to make them do something they don't want to do. Tough. Too bad. Sorry you feel that way. Major hint: This isn't your universe and you don't make the rules


:D Love the part about God making the rules! I'm a caregiver for an 85 year old man and outside hanging on his door is a sign that says "My garage My rules!" That being said I don't think God forces anybody to do what they don't want to do when it comes to loving Him. God is in control but the paradox is that we are responsible. Without God's grace we have no desire for God. If we don't want God then we don't have to freely choose God. But with His grace the desire is planted within the heart and we want to love God above all else. The problem is that we have mixed up desires. When we get to heaven all corrupt desires will have been purged and purified. We will be like God in that it will be impossible for us to sin. We will still freely choose what we want but because all corrupt desires are gone we will always want to love God above all else. All sin and corrupt desires are annihilated by Christ. We are free to do what we want - Love God and each other with perfect love. We will have completely new natures and be loving each other from the purity of the heart confirmed in His grace.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:18 pm

Eusebius wrote:Some Universalists hold to the notion that all mankind have free will and God works with them until they finally give in. I believe this is Tom Talbot's position. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Some Universalists hold to the notion that mankind have a will (the Bible calls it the will of the flesh) but it is not free. They believe God has already done everything through the death, entombment and resurrection of His Son to save all mankind.

For instance, let us look at a couple of passages attesting to what God and Christ have done and how that affects all mankind:

"for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth. For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus, Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras), for which I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the nations in knowledge and truth." (1Ti 2:3-7)

Notice the bolded "for" above. God will have all mankind to be saved FOR, or, the reason why this is so is because . . . .(and the reasons given). Notice that absent from the reasons given is "If mankind just does their part"? Rather, because all mankind have been ransomed, all mankind must be freed from bondage to sin and death and must be freed into God's salvation.

Likewise in Romans 5:18 & 19 we have:

"Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying." For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just." (Rom 5:18-19)

Notice two men and two outcomes which affect all mankind solely due to one act each man did. Notice all mankind are what I like to call, neutral recipients of what Adam and Christ did. Mankind does not have to use their will to get what they get from Adam's one act and neither does mankind have to use their will to get what they will get from Christ's one act. They all just get what they will get. That's Paul's whole point.

The will of the flesh is enmity to God and cannot please God (Romans 8). Man's will is the will of the flesh (John 1:3; Eph.2:3).

So, therefore, if man has a free will, and that will is enmity to God and cannot please God, God obviously knows this and so knows His will must overwhelm man's will.

People don't like to be told God is going to make them do something they don't want to do. Tough. Too bad. Sorry you feel that way. Major hint: This isn't your universe and you don't make the rules. :D

Michael Williams said:
The fact of the matter is that God’s will is not a violation of man’s will no matter what God does. Also, humanity’s will can never violate God’s will. These two have been mutually exclusive from each other since the cross. God separated the issue of his will and man’s will right then and there—forever. God’s and man’s respective wills, like so many other things, had to be delineated at the cross to bring clarity to the issue.

Williams, Michael (2012-08-17). One: The Gospel According to Mike (Kindle Locations 1382-1385).
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Dandelion » Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:28 pm

I believe both.

Jesus has paid the ransom for all of mankind on the cross. We have all been bought with His blood.

1 Corinthians 6:20

Young's Literal Translation
for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.


But, we must be transformed; born again into the Spirit and water. We are saved by grace, through faith.

Ephesians 2:8-9Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;


We must die with Him on Calvary to rise with him at the Resurrection.

Romans 6:8
…7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him.…


We will all be won by love, in the end. Love never fails.

So, we will all come to know His love, through our transformation.....we will all see with eyes of faith, and not with our carnal selves.

John 3:5
Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;


I don't look at in as 'giving in'. It is becoming one body with Christ. We are the prodigal sons who will go home and find the loving arms of a father, waiting to embrace us. We won't give in.....we will go home. We will return to 'Paradise', where we were meant to be. The circle will be complete.

1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it.


Philippians 2:10-11Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --
11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


God is our Creator, He made us in His image. But, He did not make us slaves, but children.

Galatians 4:7

Young's Literal Translation
so that thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ.


D.
Love never fails. 1 Corinthians 13:8
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:26 am

When I look at the world and see all the suffering, I can't help but think free will is an essential component to any theodicy. That said, free will is not inconsistent with the idea that God will never stop willing and working to save souls.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:19 am

qaz wrote:When I look at the world and see all the suffering, I can't help but think free will is an essential component to any theodicy. That said, free will is not inconsistent with the idea that God will never stop willing and working to save souls.


Nice thoughts, qaz :!: :D

What do you think, Eusebius, regarding Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All? Which side do you choose and why?

I think you will find that most historical and contemporary Christian theologians and Christian philosophical, would side with some position advocating free will (which I would side with). If universism is true, all would eventually choose it, because God made it the most appealing choice.

It's interesting that the topic of free will keeps getting resurrected or reincarnated here - on this forum. Why is that? :?: :lol:

Now I need to start the morning, by drinking a Red Bull and chewing on some hot peppers. :!: :lol:

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:52 am

I keep reading "free will" in the responses to my original post. Man does not have free will. Man has will and it is the will of the flesh. The will of the flesh is at enmity to God (Paul wrote that after Christ died).

So is God going to save all mankind IF mankind just somehow miraculously (without God's intervention) does their part? Or is God's part enough to save all mankind?

Is Christ's one right act enough to save all mankind per Romans 5:18,19 or does it need something extra from mankind to be successful?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:58 am

Eusebius wrote:I keep reading "free will" in the responses to my original post. Man does not have free will. Man has will and it is the will of the flesh. The will of the flesh is at enmity to God (Paul wrote that after Christ died).

So is God going to save all mankind IF mankind just somehow miraculously (without God's intervention) does their part? Or is God's part enough to save all mankind?

Is Christ's one right act enough to save all mankind per Romans 5:18,19 or does it need something extra from mankind to be successful?


If I wanted to play Devil's Advocate, I could quote from this USA Today article at Column: Why you don't really have free will:
The debate about free will, long the purview of philosophers alone, has been given new life by scientists, especially neuroscientists studying how the brain works. And what they're finding supports the idea that free will is a complete illusion.

And here is the columnist's background:
Jerry A. Coyne is a professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution at The University of Chicago. His latest book is Why Evolution is True, and his website is http://www.whyevolutionistrue.com.


Why shouldn't I choose Jerry A. Coyne version of free will being an illusion?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:01 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
qaz wrote:When I look at the world and see all the suffering, I can't help but think free will is an essential component to any theodicy. That said, free will is not inconsistent with the idea that God will never stop willing and working to save souls.


Nice thoughts, qaz :!: :D

What do you think, Eusebius, regarding Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All? Which side do you choose and why?


I don't believe in the myth of free will. I believe man has a will but it is not free from the dictates of the flesh. It is in fact called the will of the flesh. The flesh is not free to please God.

I think you will find that most historical and contemporary Christian theologians and Christian philosophical, would side with some position advocating free will (which I would side with). If universism is true, all would eventually choose it, because God made it the most appealing choice.


Ah, the fallacy of argumentum ad populum: If all believe it, it must be true fallacy.
If free will is true, if it is free from causality, then no amount of pleading will cause mankind to come to God to be saved.
God is not very appealing to mankind at all. That is why God is the Saviour and we the saved. Have you not read "all avoid Him"? That is because the flesh is enmity to God and cannot please God (Rom.8) and man's will is the will of the flesh. Therefore man's will is not free.

It's interesting that the topic of free will keeps getting resurrected or reincarnated here - on this forum. Why is that? :?: :lol:

Maybe God is trying to get you to see the fallacy of it? :D
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:05 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Why shouldn't I choose Jerry A. Coyne version of free will being an illusion?


Maybe you should because in so doing you would side with the Bible as well?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:09 am

Eusebius wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Why shouldn't I choose Jerry A. Coyne version of free will being an illusion?


Maybe you should because in so doing you would side with the Bible as well?


If free will is an illusion, will everyone make the right choice in handling moral dilemmas (like in this video)?? Why or why not?

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:13 am

maintenanceman wrote:Michael Williams said:
The fact of the matter is that God’s will is not a violation of man’s will no matter what God does. Also, humanity’s will can never violate God’s will. These two have been mutually exclusive from each other since the cross. God separated the issue of his will and man’s will right then and there—forever. God’s and man’s respective wills, like so many other things, had to be delineated at the cross to bring clarity to the issue.

Williams, Michael (2012-08-17). One: The Gospel According to Mike (Kindle Locations 1382-1385).



I see the entire history of mankind at odds with God's will even after the cross. After the cross the Israelites clashed with the holy spirit and willed not to come to Christ. But in so doing they fulfilled His intention that they rebel.

No one ever has withstood God's intention. That is what Romans 9 see also 9:19, is all about. In going against His will they fulfill His intention.
God's intention is seen in Isaiah's day that
"Mat 13:14 And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying,
'"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding,
And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving.
Mat 13:15 For stoutened is the heart of this people,
And with their ears heavily they hear,
And with their eyes they squint,
Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes,
And with their ears should be hearing,
And with their heart may be understanding,
And should be turning about,
And I shall be healing them.'

Christ reiterated Isaiah's curse as did Paul to the Israelites. How free is that? How free were the Israelites to not come under that curse? They were in bondage. They were locked up in unpersuadableness (Romans 11:32). It is not until God unlocks them that they will be free to believe.

Michael Williams should have quoted at least one verse to back up his thesis. Since one was not given, I perceive it is just his philosophy.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:15 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Why shouldn't I choose Jerry A. Coyne version of free will being an illusion?


Maybe you should because in so doing you would side with the Bible as well?


If free will is an illusion, will everyone make the right choice in handling moral dilemmas (like in this video)?? Why or why not?


Since free will is not so, why must everyone make the right choice in handling moral dilemmas since the flesh is at enmity to God?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:18 am

When will they make the right choice regarding moral dilemmas? At the end of time? What does your stance on universalism say (after all, Christ died for all)? Why doesn't God intervene, to help them make the right choice?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:02 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:When will they make the right choice regarding moral dilemmas? At the end of time? What does your stance on universalism say (after all, Christ died for all)? Why doesn't God intervene, to help them make the right choice?


No choice is causeless. No will is uncaused.

Once all mankind see the love of God and love of Christ in all they did to save mankind, I believe it is then that that love overwhelms the will of humanity and they see their Saviour for Who He is.

What caused Saul to become Paul on the road to Damascus? Did Christ say to Saul "Won't you pretty please believe in Me? Oh pretty please with a cherry on top?" No. What was Paul's summation of the event?

"Grateful am I to Him Who invigorates me, Christ Jesus, our Lord, for He deems me faithful, assigning me a service, I, who formerly was a calumniator and a persecutor and an outrager: but I was shown mercy, seeing that I do it being ignorant, in unbelief." Yet the grace of our Lord overwhelms, with faith and love in Christ Jesus." Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all welcome, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, foremost of whom am I." But therefore was I shown mercy, that in me, the foremost, Jesus Christ should be displaying all His patience, for a pattern of those who are about to be believing on Him for life eonian." (1Ti 1:12-16)

Something had to overwhelm Saul to make him Paul per the above.

I also believe that mankind's will will be changed when they are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption. Then, for the first time they will see God and Christ and the truth in perfection. I don't believe God is going to be like a jilted lover Who is like a stalker that just keeps harassing mankind after they are resurrected until they finally break.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:06 am

Eusebius wrote:
I also believe that mankind's will will be changed when they are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption. Then, for the first time they will see God and Christ and the truth in perfection. I don't believe God is going to be like a jilted lover Who is like a stalker that just keeps harassing mankind after they are resurrected until they finally break.


How is mankind able to do this ("are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption"), if free will is an illusion? When will this take place? How will this take place? Forgive the questions. It's my way of trying to understand, these complex ideas. :!: :)

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:13 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
I also believe that mankind's will will be changed when they are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption. Then, for the first time they will see God and Christ and the truth in perfection. I don't believe God is going to be like a jilted lover Who is like a stalker that just keeps harassing mankind after they are resurrected until they finally break.


How is mankind able to do this ("are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption"), if free will is an illusion? When will this take place? How will this take place? Forgive the questions. It's my way of trying to understand, these complex ideas. :!: :)


Sorry HFPZ but it is possible I don't understand your question:
What do you mean "how is mankind able to do this"? Do what? How are they able to be vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption? That is impossible with man. Mankind cannot will that to happen. Mankind cannot choose it to occur. It is only when God wills it to occur that it occurs.

It is nice that even if we may disagree that we are civil and loving and patient, right?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:24 am

Eusebius wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:
I also believe that mankind's will will be changed when they are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption. Then, for the first time they will see God and Christ and the truth in perfection. I don't believe God is going to be like a jilted lover Who is like a stalker that just keeps harassing mankind after they are resurrected until they finally break.


How is mankind able to do this ("are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption"), if free will is an illusion? When will this take place? How will this take place? Forgive the questions. It's my way of trying to understand, these complex ideas. :!: :)


Sorry HFPZ but it is possible I don't understand your question:
What do you mean "how is mankind able to do this"? Do what? How are they able to be vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption? That is impossible with man. Mankind cannot will that to happen. Mankind cannot choose it to occur. It is only when God wills it to occur that it occurs.

It is nice that even if we may disagree that we are civil and loving and patient, right?


Ok. Let's get back to basic questions. My take on universal positions is this. I don't try to argue that a universal position (or a particular variant) is wrong. I try to understand, where the presenter is coming from. Or play Devil's Advocate and ask them how they might respond, to a conventional position and/or criticism. Nothing more. Nothing less. As far as other areas go, I might get involved in the discussion and even take a side. Here's some basic questions - forget the previous one ("how is mankind able to do this"). Let me know if you don't understand them:

    When will mankind's final universal reconciliation take place?
    How will mankind's final universal reconciliation take place?
    How do you know free will is an illusion and you don't have it?
    How can I or you know (perceive with certainty) anything at all?
    How do you know that you even exist and you are not part of someone's dream?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:28 am

Dandelion wrote:I believe both.

Jesus has paid the ransom for all of mankind on the cross. We have all been bought with His blood.

1 Corinthians 6:20

Young's Literal Translation
for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.


But, we must be transformed; born again into the Spirit and water. We are saved by grace, through faith.


Eusebius' reply: What **must** occur is what will occur due to God's will in the matter.

Dandelion continues:
Ephesians 2:8-9Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you -- of God the gift,
9 not of works, that no one may boast;


We must die with Him on Calvary to rise with him at the Resurrection.


Eusebius' reply:
All mankind have already died with Him. God already put the old humanity to death in the death of Christ. Mankind did not make a free will choice to be crucified with Christ and entombed with Him. God had to do it Himself.

Dandelion continues:
Romans 6:8
…7For anyone who has died has been freed from sin. 8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with Him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, He cannot die again; death no longer has dominion over Him.…


We will all be won by love, in the end. Love never fails.

So, we will all come to know His love, through our transformation.....we will all see with eyes of faith, and not with our carnal selves.


Eusebius' reply:
I'm sorry dear Dandelion but I do not see God's sovereignty verses free will in the above which you bring up. If all mankind are won by love, then the love was greater than our will not to love Him and therefore His will was that His love overwhelm us and therefore our will was not free to be able to fight off His love to be won over to Him.

Dandelion continues:
John 3:5
Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;


I don't look at in as 'giving in'. It is becoming one body with Christ. We are the prodigal sons who will go home and find the loving arms of a father, waiting to embrace us. We won't give in.....we will go home. We will return to 'Paradise', where we were meant to be. The circle will be complete.


Eusebius' reply:
But the prodigal son was dead [to God] and it was not until he was made alive [to God] that he came to the Father. In the parable the father said upon receiving his son "This my son was dead yet now he lives." So it really depends upon God making Israel alive again to Him. Their will will not allow such a thing to occur. Only when God wills it to occur will it occur.

Dandelion continues:
1 Corinthians 12:27
Now you are the body of Christ, and each of you is a member of it.


Philippians 2:10-11Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

10 that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --
11 and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


God is our Creator, He made us in His image. But, He did not make us slaves, but children.


We are all slaves to Sin and enslaved to sin and death. That is what much of Paul's epistle to the Romans is about and what God has done to undo that for humanity. Until then, mankind is enslaved.

Dandelion continues:
Galatians 4:7

Young's Literal Translation
so that thou art no more a servant, but a son, and if a son, also an heir of God through Christ.


D.


Eusebius' reply:
Yes, but only by God giving us the place of a son, not by us willing it to be so.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:41 am

Eusebius wrote:
I also believe that mankind's will will be changed when they are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption. Then, for the first time they will see God and Christ and the truth in perfection. I don't believe God is going to be like a jilted lover Who is like a stalker that just keeps harassing mankind after they are resurrected until they finally break.


Holy-Fool-P-Zombie:
How is mankind able to do this ("are vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption"), if free will is an illusion? When will this take place? How will this take place? Forgive the questions. It's my way of trying to understand, these complex ideas. :!: :)


Eusebius:
Sorry HFPZ but it is possible I don't understand your question:
What do you mean "how is mankind able to do this"? Do what? How are they able to be vivified, made immortal and put on incorruption? That is impossible with man. Mankind cannot will that to happen. Mankind cannot choose it to occur. It is only when God wills it to occur that it occurs.

It is nice that even if we may disagree that we are civil and loving and patient, right?


Holy-Fool-P-Zombie stated:
Ok. Let's get back to basic questions. My take on universal positions is this. I don't try to argue that a universal position (or a particular variant) is wrong. I try to understand, where the presenter is coming from. Or play Devil's Advocate and ask them how they might respond, to a conventional position and/or criticism. Nothing more. Nothing less. As far as other areas go, I might get involved in the discussion and even take a side. Here's some basic questions - forget the previous one ("how is mankind able to do this"). Let me know if you don't understand them:

    When will mankind's final universal reconciliation take place?


Eusebius:
Once all creation is brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God (Romans 8:21). God must will this to occur, not humanity. And just before 8:21 it says the creation did not volunteer (free will) to be subjected to vanity but God willed it to be so. And one day God will free all creation according to His will and choice per 8:21.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie:
    How will mankind's final universal reconciliation take place?

Eusebius: Once they put on immortality and incorruption.

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie:
    How do you know free will is an illusion and you don't have it?

Eusebius:
We all have wills. We know for a fact our choices are not uncaused. Therefore we know our wills are not free from causality.
Code: Select all
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
[list]How can I or you  know (perceive with certainty) anything at all?[/list]

Eusebius:
Maybe it should be asked: How can we believe anything God says with certainty?

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie:
    How do you know that you even exist and you are not part of someone's dream?

Eusebius:
I'm sure if we were it would be part of God's revelation to humanity.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:48 am

Eusebius wrote:Eusebius wrote:

I'm sure if we were it would be part of God's revelation to humanity.


Let's focus on that last point. And let's just stick with the Protestant canon of scripture. Many universalists here have differ spins and understanding of scripture. Same goes true for those in mainline churches, seminaries and broadcast media. How do we know who is correct and who is not? How do you know your understanding is right and everyone else misses the boat (despite their education, ancient Greek and Hebrew language expertise, training in theology, claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit, etc.)?

Image

“Being challenged in life is inevitable, being defeated is optional.”– Roger Crawford


    Can I also get your definition of will? Is it what I leave to family, relatives and charitable concerts - drafted by a lawyer? :D

    If free will is an illusion, is God - in Einstein's words,
    "playing dice with the universe?"
    So if I was born to Donald Trump, Mr. Putin, Kim Jong-un, some Middle Eastern family or into Povery in India - this is God's will? Why? What purpose is served? All of this is "causality" - right?. I can become a spoiled rich kid (i.e. Trump), a Russian tyrant (i.e. Putin), an atheist (Kim Jong-un), a Muslim (where I can be killed, if I wish to become Christian) or born into an Indian untouchable class (where I am scorned by society). And nothing I do can change this - right?
    Now the novelist Ayn Rand, lives in Russian - during the cold war. She graduates from a Russian university and visits the US - under the guise of visiting relatives. She wants to become a famous writer. She eventually goes on to write Hollywood screenplays - in perfect English. She then goes on to write the famous novels the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. Since free will doesn't exist, how did she fulfill her lifelong ambition?

Image
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:31 am

Eusebius wrote:
maintenanceman wrote:Michael Williams said:
The fact of the matter is that God’s will is not a violation of man’s will no matter what God does. Also, humanity’s will can never violate God’s will. These two have been mutually exclusive from each other since the cross. God separated the issue of his will and man’s will right then and there—forever. God’s and man’s respective wills, like so many other things, had to be delineated at the cross to bring clarity to the issue.

Williams, Michael (2012-08-17). One: The Gospel According to Mike (Kindle Locations 1382-1385).



I see the entire history of mankind at odds with God's will even after the cross. After the cross the Israelites clashed with the holy spirit and willed not to come to Christ. But in so doing they fulfilled His intention that they rebel.

No one ever has withstood God's intention. That is what Romans 9 see also 9:19, is all about. In going against His will they fulfill His intention.
God's intention is seen in Isaiah's day that
"Mat 13:14 And filled up in them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that is saying,
'"In hearing, you will be hearing, and may by no means be understanding,
And observing, you will be observing, and may by no means be perceiving.
Mat 13:15 For stoutened is the heart of this people,
And with their ears heavily they hear,
And with their eyes they squint,
Lest at some time they may be perceiving with their eyes,
And with their ears should be hearing,
And with their heart may be understanding,
And should be turning about,
And I shall be healing them.'

Christ reiterated Isaiah's curse as did Paul to the Israelites. How free is that? How free were the Israelites to not come under that curse? They were in bondage. They were locked up in unpersuadableness (Romans 11:32). It is not until God unlocks them that they will be free to believe.

Michael Williams should have quoted at least one verse to back up his thesis. Since one was not given, I perceive it is just his philosophy.


First of all my dear fellow, you floated this freewill/sovereignty idea. I happened to be reading that particular part of Michaels book. Providence perhaps? Or maybe a mathematical probability? :lol:

Point being, I quoted him cause the idea was interesting. As to your claim of validity being questionable with out a bible verse, I can only say for the most part that a singular proof text rarely is sufficient to make a cohesive argument.

Any time we offer an opinion about biblical understanding, it is just that... An opinion. There aren't tens of thousands of denominations out there for nothing :D

Just my humble opinion.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:06 am

Eusebius wrote:I keep reading "free will" in the responses to my original post. Man does not have free will. Man has will and it is the will of the flesh. The will of the flesh is at enmity to God (Paul wrote that after Christ died)
.

The early Christian writers from the beginning believed in free will (which means simply "the ability to choose")

Acts 15:22
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers.


They chose men. Their will to chose those particular men did not arise from "the flesh".

2 Corinthians 6:1
Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.


Unless we coöperate with the grace of God by choosing to work together with Him, any grace of God received will be in vain—will not deliver us from wrongdoing.


100-165 AD : Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestinated that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.” (First Apology ch.43 )

[About the year 180, Florinus had affirmed that God is the author of sin, which notion was immediately attacked by Irenaeus, who published a discourse entitled: “God, not the Author of Sin.” Florinus’ doctrine reappeared in another form later in Manichaeism, and was always considered to be a dangerous heresy by the early fathers of the church.]

130-200 AD : Irenaeus
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God...And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice...If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?” (Against Heresies XXXVII )

150-190 AD : Athenagoras
“men...have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless)...”(Embassy for Christians XXIV )

150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, book 1, ch.17)

154-222 AD : Bardaisan of Syria
“How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation? —if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him...And how in that case, would man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman...they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures.” (Fragments )

155-225 AD : Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God’s image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature.” (Against Marcion, Book II ch.5 )

185-254 AD : Origen
“This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition.” (De Principiis, Preface )

185-254 AD : Origen
“There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will.” (De Principiis, Book 3, ch.1 )

250-300 AD : Archelaus
“There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he chooses.” (Disputation with Manes, secs.32,33 )

260-315 AD : Methodius
“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, discourse 8, chapter 16 )

312-386 AD : Cyril of Jerusalem
“The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator by necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature.” (Lecture IV 18 )

347-407 AD : John Chrysostom
“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost...it depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help...It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and bring to the end.” (On Hebrews, Homily 12 )

120-180 AD: Tatian
“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (Address to the Greeks, 11)

(died 180 AD):Melito
“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, page 754)

163-182 AD:Theophilus
“If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 27)

130-200 AD:Irenaeus
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37)

150-200 AD:Clement of Alexandria
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

155-225: Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5)
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:26 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:Eusebius wrote:

I'm sure if we were it would be part of God's revelation to humanity.


Let's focus on that last point. And let's just stick with the Protestant canon of scripture. Many universalists here have differ spins and understanding of scripture. Same goes true for those in mainline churches, seminaries and broadcast media. How do we know who is correct and who is not? How do you know your understanding is right and everyone else misses the boat (despite their education, ancient Greek and Hebrew language expertise, training in theology, claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit, etc.)?


Good question. Education, Greek/Hebrew expertise/ theological training etc. is no assurance of knowing the truth or being able to give it out.
There are so many sects out there, even within Universalist groups, how is one to know who is correct and who is not? If one's theological construct does not contradict another, that is a good start. For instance, my one brother got degreed via a couple well-known Bible colleges. Yet some of his theology contradicts other parts of Biblical theology. For instance, he can't believe "God will have all mankind to be saved" because he uses as his major premise the idea that "hell" is eternal.
I come from a large family of 15 altogether. Only one, my twin brother, believes God will save all. Some of the Catholics in the family have a hard time believing in eternal hell. The Protestants seem to relish it. So I have to deal with major sets of theological underpinnings. Just this morning I explained to my youngest brother that he and my degreed brother hold to the Jehovah's Witnesses take on 1 Timothy 2:4-6 that it comes down to just "all sorts of men." He blew it off like I said nothing. My Catholics brothers and sisters are easier to talk to. How can any of them know I have the truth or how can I know if they have the truth in any given matter of the Scriptures? I believe it is possible to know the truth and that that truth can set one free. Pilate asked Christ "What is truth?" Christ didn't go into a well through out response. He just stood there. He was letting Pilate know "You are looking at it."
So that is a beginning of how one can know if a scriptural matter is true or not. Does it contradict other scriptures?

“Being challenged in life is inevitable, being defeated is optional.”– Roger Crawford


    Can I also get your definition of will? Is it what I leave to family, relatives and charitable concerts - drafted by a lawyer? :D


Will: form a decision, choice or purpose. Idiomatically "want" or "would." (As will is also used to indicate the future, and as it cannot stand before an infinitive, and "willing" denotes compliance, the rendering of "will" must be highly idiomatic.) (Keyword Concordance in the Concordant Literal New Testament).
    If free will is an illusion, is God - in Einstein's words, "playing dice with the universe?" So if I was born to Donald Trump, Mr. Putin, some Middle Eastern family or into Povery in India - this is God's will? Why? What purpose is served? All of this is "causality."


Will is not an illusion. We see mankind exercise their will every day. But that will is not free from causality. Einstein actually said God does not play dice with the universe. In other words, the universe is under His control. Nothing in His universe is by chance according to Einstein.

For instance, suppose one is addicted to cigarettes. He enjoys smoking. He sees a commercial on the effects of smoking. Due to that commercial he quits smoking. Was his choice free? No. The threat of bad things happening to him due to smoking were greater than his enjoyment of smoking. So he did not make a free will choice to quit. He was forced to quit by a greater force than the enjoyment of smoking.
Just because God says He will save all mankind
does not necessarily mean He won't.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:33 am

Back to my full examples (look at the highlighted questions). Yes, I'm familiar with Albert and he did use not before my quote.

    If will is not free, is God - in Einstein's words (referring to other scientists and philosophers),
    "playing dice with the universe?"

      So if I was born to Donald Trump, Mr. Putin, Kim Jong-un, some Middle Eastern family or into Povery in India - this is God's will?
      Why?
      What purpose is served?
      All of this is "causality" - right?.
    I can become a spoiled rich kid (i.e. Trump), a Russian tyrant (i.e. Putin), an atheist (Kim Jong-un), a Muslim (where I can be killed, if I wish to become Christian) or born into an Indian untouchable class (where I am scorned by society).
      And nothing I do can change this - right?
    Now the novelist Ayn Rand, lives in Russian - during the cold war. She graduates from a Russian university and visits the US - under the guise of visiting relatives. She wants to become a famous writer. She eventually goes on to write Hollywood screenplays - in perfect English (with no help from anyone). She then goes on to write the famous novels the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged.
      Since free will doesn't exist, how did she fulfill her lifelong ambition?
    ]
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:38 am

Paidion wrote:
Eusebius wrote:I keep reading "free will" in the responses to my original post. Man does not have free will. Man has will and it is the will of the flesh. The will of the flesh is at enmity to God (Paul wrote that after Christ died)
.

The early Christian writers from the beginning believed in free will (which means simply "the ability to choose")

Acts 15:22
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers.


They chose men. Their will to chose those particular men did not arise from "the flesh".


But the Holy Spirit caused them to choose whom they would. Just like the choosing of Matthias due to Judas hanging himself, the lot fell on Matthias because God chose him to replace Judas. It may seem like a roll of the dice but "the lot is cast into the lap but the whole disposing thereof is of Yahweh."

2 Corinthians 6:1
Working together with him, then, we appeal to you not to receive the grace of God in vain.

Unless we coöperate with the grace of God by choosing to work together with Him, any grace of God received will be in vain—will not deliver us from wrongdoing.


The only way one cooperates with the grace of God is if God gives the grace in the first place to be cooperative. Nothing is uncaused. God is the great cause.


100-165 AD : Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestinated that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.” (First Apology ch.43 )

[About the year 180, Florinus had affirmed that God is the author of sin, which notion was immediately attacked by Irenaeus, who published a discourse entitled: “God, not the Author of Sin.” Florinus’ doctrine reappeared in another form later in Manichaeism, and was always considered to be a dangerous heresy by the early fathers of the church.]

130-200 AD : Irenaeus
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God...And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice...If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?” (Against Heresies XXXVII )

150-190 AD : Athenagoras
“men...have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless)...”(Embassy for Christians XXIV )

150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, book 1, ch.17)

154-222 AD : Bardaisan of Syria
“How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation? —if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him...And how in that case, would man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman...they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures.” (Fragments )

155-225 AD : Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God’s image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature.” (Against Marcion, Book II ch.5 )

185-254 AD : Origen
“This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition.” (De Principiis, Preface )

185-254 AD : Origen
“There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will.” (De Principiis, Book 3, ch.1 )

250-300 AD : Archelaus
“There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he chooses.” (Disputation with Manes, secs.32,33 )

260-315 AD : Methodius
“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, discourse 8, chapter 16 )

312-386 AD : Cyril of Jerusalem
“The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator by necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature.” (Lecture IV 18 )

347-407 AD : John Chrysostom
“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost...it depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help...It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and bring to the end.” (On Hebrews, Homily 12 )

120-180 AD: Tatian
“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (Address to the Greeks, 11)

(died 180 AD):Melito
“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, page 754)

163-182 AD:Theophilus
“If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 27)

130-200 AD:Irenaeus
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37)

150-200 AD:Clement of Alexandria
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

155-225: Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5)
[/quote]

Hi Paidion,
We all make choices. But no choice is uncaused. Therefore no choice is free in the greatest sense of the word.
I can find verses in the Bible which counter these quotes above. "God chose us before the disruption of the world." "All who are set for life eonian believe." "It is not of him who is willing nor of him who is racing but of God the Merciful." "not begotten by the will of the flesh nor the will of man but by [the will of] God."

I think the Bible is of much more importance and should be what we fall back on for truth rather than the fallible men you quoted, would you not say?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby pilgrim » Fri Aug 26, 2016 9:51 am

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Are the above scriptures just teasing us in a deceitful way and we really are not free to choose or respond?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 11:10 am

pilgrim wrote:Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.


Their choice was not free from cause. If they chose not to do the law they would be destroyed. If they did covenant with God to do the law, they were then under the curse of the law. Either way, God was going to prove to them they could not do the law. So no matter how much they CHOOSE this day Whom they will serve, their choice could not help them actually serve the Lord. And in fact Joshua told them right afterward that they cannot serve the Lord!

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

They may have chosen life but that is not what they got. They came under the curse of the law. Paul said the law is death chiseled in stone. Their choice to have life was voided by coming under the law. Their choice could not get them what they wanted therefore their choice was null.


Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Are the above scriptures just teasing us in a deceitful way and we really are not free to choose or respond?


First of all one needs to know that the above verses, including Revelation 3:20 are not given with the idea that mankind has a free will to choose to come to God or Christ. Rather they should be read with the understanding that should one open the door to Christ that they were chosen by God to do such. Boasting is excluded. Why? Because it is God Who saves. "What have you got but what you've received and why boast as if not receiving it?"

We all make choices. The question though is: are they free from causality? What causes someone to choose A over B? Something has to. The choice is not free. It is caused.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:32 pm

The trouble is that we keep bouncing around the term "causality". But you first have to establish that it exists. Not everyone believes in it. Or if they believe in God, they might view the deity, as Deism does. He starts up the universe and let's it continue - without intervention. Let's survey some forum talks.


Image

Suppose Eusebius read a paper on his position, at the next Evangelical conference on Universalism. And three disquingished scientists were at the conference. After a few drinks, they went to hear his talk - just for fun. Afterwards, each approached and said this:

    Jerry A. Coyne is a professor in the Department of Ecology and Evolution, at The University of Chicago. He liked the talk and shared his interest in brain research. He said that the illusion of free will, is caused by neural transmitters in the brain. And he presents him with a layman's article from USA Today article at Column: Why you don't really have free will. To illustate this, see Do we have Free Will :
    Harris prosecutes his orderly case by explaining what he sees as the illogic of our belief in free will, and the recent findings that have undermined that belief. Probably the most influential among these discoveries were the results of the famous EEG experiments conducted by the physiologist Benjamin Libet and others in the early 1980s. They showed that the brain makes decisions before consciousness becomes aware of them. As Harris puts it, “activity in the brain’s motor cortex can be detected some 300 milliseconds” — almost enough time for LeBron James to get off a shot ahead of the buzzer — “before a person feels that he has decided to move.” As Harris’s text and impressive citations substantiate, these experiments and others like them have chiseled away much of the rock of free will upon which religion, jurisprudence and moral judgments have traditionally rested. (One could argue that Judaism and Christianity originated with Adam and Eve’s decision to disobey God’s order.)

    Professor Rupus T Firefly from Standard, says that while causality is operating in this world, it's not at the level of Quantum physics. The Uncertainty principle and Quantum indeterminacy. really determines all reality. And he can show experiments to correlate it to free will. See the Scientific American article The Quantum Physics of Free Will. Here are 4 points that will be addressed, in the article:
    1. Quantum mechanics is indeterministic, in that the outcomes of measurements are chosen at random from the slate of possibilities. So, if quantum effects help to shape our conscious choices, they sever the connection between us and the initial conditions of the universe.

    2. When we conduct experiments on quantum particles, we exercise our free will—for example, we make choices about what precisely to ask of the particles. Or at least we think we exercise our free will. How those particles respond can depend on whether we really do.

    3. If you could predict someone’s decisions consistently, you could conclude that he or she lacks free will. To do that, you’d need to take a full brain scan and simulate his or her thought processes. Yet quantum physics forbids the reliable, nondestructive copying of particles, let alone whole brains. If you could never observe the loss of free will, then you should doubt whether it is ever really lost.

    4. Quantum physics is time-symmetric, so we are as justified in saying that our choices set the cosmic initial conditions as the other way round.

    Professor Elmer J Fudd from Oxford, is a neo-behaviorist. He agrees with the paper. But says people just need the right reinforcement, from stimulus-response research in psychology, in order to make the proper choices. He gives him a copy of Walden II by B.F. Skinner. Let's watch his assistant, Dr. Sheldon Cooper, demonstrate this.



So how would Eusebius respond, to these 3 distinguished professors? What is presented in the 3 previous scientific examples are facts. They are current scientific positions that many scientists hold. They would say that:

    Free will illusion is caused by neural brain transmitters, according to current brain research
    At the level of Quantum physics, the Uncertainty principle and Quantum indeterminacy, would undermine or neutralize the principle of causality.
    You can get people to respond via operand conditioning or behavior modification


Image

Or let's take the case of spiritual healing. A person is told by the medical specialists and medical tests, that their disease is incurable. But they go to some spiritual healing modality - perhaps:

    The Catholic site Lourdes
    A Charismatic healer
    An Indigenous Native American ceremony
    A Christian Science practitioner
    A meeting of the Bruno Groening Circle of Friends
    Etc.

In keeping with what I know, they might have:

    No healing
    A partial healing
    A complete healing

So how would Eusebius respond? I have spend a lifetime investigating spiritual healing. And I have observed all that I have described. These are not "make-believe scenarios".

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"


This cartoon illustrates correlation variables. Eusebius believes everything is a causality variable. But that raises many questions:

    How many causality variables are there, that influence a given decision?
    What statistical percentage does each one represent (something that experiments in psychology, social psychology, etc., can give you)?
    How do you know each person will respond to a given causality variable, in the same way? And if not, how do you explain the difference?
    How do you know something you think is a causality variable, is not a correlation variable?
    Etc.

Image

Image

Or I could say that since I am subject to causality and the will of God, it is my destiny to embrace Holy Fool theology and P-Zombie philosophy. So no one here, can fault me for that. :!: :lol:
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:49 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:The trouble is that we keep bouncing around the term "causality". But you first have to establish that it exists. Not everyone believes in it. Or if they believe in God, they might view the deity, as Deism does. Let's survey some forum talks.



Asking if causality exists is like asking if air exists. The entire universe is built on cause and effect. Something caused you to write your response. It was not a causeless response. You didn't just write a response due to no cause whatsoever.

Suppose Eusebius read a paper on his position, at the next Evangelical conference on Universalism. And three disquingished scientists were at the conference. After a few drinks, they went to hear his talk - just for fun. Afterwards, each approached and said this:
So how would Eusebius respond, to these 3 distinguished professors?


Suppose we don't go by supposes and just stick with facts?

Or let's take the case of spiritual healing. A person is told by the medical specialists and medical tests, that their disease is incurable. But they go to some spiritual healing modality - perhaps:

    The Catholic site Lourdes
    A Charismatic healer
    An Indigenous Native American ceremony
    Etc.

In keeping with what I know, they might have:

    No healing
    A partial healing
    A complete healing

So how would Eusebius respond?

Or I could say that since I am subject to causality and the will of God, it is my destiny to embrace Holy Fool theology and P-Zombie philosophy. So no one here, can fault me for that. :!: :lol:


I don't really like dealing with make-believe scenarios. Either something is or it isn't. We are all the products of cause. Something caused your mother and father to get together and produce you. You didn't come about due to something causeless.

If our will is free than humanity is not responsible since nothing caused them to do what they do.
If our will is not free than humanity is not responsible since their wills were caused to do what they had to do and they could not do otherwise.
In both cases above, mankind is not responsible in the ultimate sense.
Sure we have relative responsibilities such as taking care of our children. But even then our wills/choices are made by a greater force than to not take care of them.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Aug 26, 2016 12:53 pm

Eusebius wrote:Suppose we don't go by supposes and just stick with facts?


What is presented in the 3 previous scientific examples are facts. They are current scientific positions that many scientists hold. They would say that:

    Free will illusion is caused by neural brain transmitters, according to current brain research
    At the level of Quantum physics, the Uncertainty principle and Quantum indeterminacy, would undermine or neutralize the principle of causality.
    You can get people to respond via operand conditioning or behavior modification


Eusebius wrote:I don't really like dealing with make-believe scenarios. Either something is or it isn't. We are all the products of cause. Something caused your mother and father to get together and produce you. You didn't come about due to something causeless.

I have spend a lifetime investigating spiritual healing. And I have observed all that I have described. These are not "make-believe scenarios".

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eusebius » Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:03 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Eusebius wrote:Suppose we don't go by supposes and just stick with facts?


What is presented in the 3 previous scientific examples are facts. They are current scientific positions that many scientists hold.

Eusebius wrote:I don't really like dealing with make-believe scenarios. Either something is or it isn't. We are all the products of cause. Something caused your mother and father to get together and produce you. You didn't come about due to something causeless.

I have spend a lifetime investigating spiritual healing. And I have observed all that I have described. These are not "make-believe scenarios".

"If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"


Okay, thank you.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:16 pm

Eusebius wrote:For instance, suppose one is addicted to cigarettes. He enjoys smoking. He sees a commercial on the effects of smoking. …

Eusebius wrote:I don't really like dealing with make-believe scenarios.

Oooops! :shock: :oops: :roll:

Of course humanity has FREEWILL… we just don’t all get to taste of it equally as we would like, BUT it is FREEWILL nonetheless, i.e., another’s (free) will may be stronger than ours… no one trumps God’s FREEWILL.

There are certain laws in place that impinge on man’s freewill, however to the degree that man’s freewill can triumph over said laws man’s freewill will, up until whatever enables man’s freewill to defy said laws, and thus the greater standing law prevails.

Eusebius… I know you don’t like “make-believe scenarios” apparently, although when convenient you use them yourself; but man for example, by his freewill can choose to defy the law of gravity and will do so up the point he can maintain that which causes him do to so. However, that ability unlike the law of gravity is not limitless and in the end will triumph over the act of man’s freewill.

God has given humanity FREEWILL within the bounds of His choosing… to the degree man moves within those pre-set boundaries he has FREEWILL. When my children were small they had freewill to move wherever they so freely chose in my back yard… they did not have the same freewill beyond the markers I set. IF they of the OWN FREEWILL chose to defy said boundaries certain consequences could come into play.

Given that no one is an auto-bot it is only natural and normal for one/some to push the bounds and limits and experience said consequences… it’s the NATURE of God-given freewill, which to varying degrees can be exercised.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:26 pm

Davo, I'm glad you believe in free will. If humans do have free will, doesn't that mean it's possible to us to sin?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 4:35 pm

qaz wrote:If humans do have free will, doesn't that mean it's possible to us to sin?

The most obvious answer I can give to that… “what does the evidence suggest?” :mrgreen:
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:37 pm

qaz wrote:Davo, I'm glad you believe in free will. If humans do have free will, doesn't that mean it's possible to us to sin?



If to sin is to miss the mark, then it is true that men sin, regardless of whether they have free will, or not.

If men do not have free will, then there are other forces and or wills at work causing them to do what they do, just as with animals and trees.

God made Nebuchadnezzar like a beast of the field for seven years till He restored him to sanity.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:50 pm

Davo, some people reject God their entire lives, even after AD 70.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:06 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:So how would Eusebius respond, to these 3 distinguished professors? What is presented in the 3 previous scientific examples are facts. They are current scientific positions that many scientists hold. They would say that:

Free will illusion is caused by neural brain transmitters, according to current brain research
At the level of Quantum physics, the Uncertainty principle and Quantum indeterminacy, would undermine or neutralize the principle of causality.
You can get people to respond via operand conditioning or behavior modification



Re the last sentence above, i'd say if you tried to get a demon possessed person to respond as you wish, you may have extreme
difficulties or even complete failure.

I think perhaps we all have the feeling (or illusion) that we have free will.

What is an illusion? The impression that as we look out over an ocean or miles of farmlands in the country that the earth is flat?
Or as we observe the sun it appears to be moving & the earth standing still?

Freewill is an illusion if the inerrant inspired Scriptures say it is.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Geoffrey » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:07 pm

davo wrote:
qaz wrote:If humans do have free will, doesn't that mean it's possible to us to sin?

The most obvious answer I can give to that… “what does the evidence suggest?” :mrgreen:


That's the funniest post I've read on this site! :lol:
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:14 pm

Martin Zender offers some Scriptures that he sees as refuting free will:

http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature ... _creed.htm
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:36 pm

qaz wrote:Davo, some people reject God their entire lives, even after AD 70.

Logic would suggest this could be a reasonable assumption… what have you concluded from this?
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 6:39 pm

Origen; wrote:Martin Zender offers some Scriptures that he sees as refuting free will:

http://www.martinzender.com/Zenderature ... _creed.htm

Zender makes the all too oft mistake, yourself included, of universalising what can be attributable and thus limited to certain specifics.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:08 pm

Asking if causality exists is like asking if air exists.

Denying free will is like denying the existence of humanity.

The entire universe is built on cause and effect.

Humanity itself is founded on the ability to choose.

Something caused you to write your response. It was not a causeless response. You didn't just write a response due to no cause whatsoever.


I know you were addressing someone else, but I will respond as if it were addressed to me.
Yes, there was a cause of my written response. I, myself, was the cause. You might claim that your statements were the cause. But that is not the case. I could have refrained from responding to your statements. And that is free will—the ability to choose between alternatives.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:16 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:This cartoon illustrates correlation variables. Eusebius believes everything is a causality variable. But that raises many questions:

How many causality variables are there, that influence a given decision?
What statistical percentage does each one represent (something that experiments in psychology, social psychology, etc., can give you)?
How do you know each person will respond to a given causality variable, in the same way? And if not, how do you explain the difference?
How do you know something you think is a causality variable, is not a correlation variable?



Re Q1, there are a multitude of possible variables re causes of behaviour in biblical deterministic theory, if one wants to break it down in detail.
More generally you have the will of man/will of the flesh, the workings of demonic or evil spirits, environmental influences, heredity, the presence of holy angels, the power and word of God, His Son, the Holy Spirit, etc.

Re Q2, this is a question for an Omnipotent Being & those He confides in who are, if any, on a need to know basis, not human beings. Though i
question that any of these would have any interest in such scientific data.

Re Q3/4 see Q2...Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable -- who doth know it? I Jehovah do search the heart,(Jer.17:9-10a)
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:28 pm

More from Martin Zender on free will:

"Live as if It All Depends on You
Q: To what extent is our free will? God chooses us and gives us belief. Do we make any choices at all? When I used to wup my brother on the basketball court, was that talent and free will?

A: There is no such thing as free will. Nobody makes any decision at any time that is not ultimately dictated by God.

Now, forget I just said that and live your life. Live as if you have all the free will in the world. This is how God wants us to live. We are to live like we have control, but we are to believe the truth that we have no control. The two are not mutually exclusive. One is the relative perspective (our day-to-day life as we relate with other people and ourselves), and the other is the absolute perspective. The relative is not absolutely true. Only the absolute is absolutely true. And the absolute is: we have no free will in anything. Nothing. Zip.

The talent that caused you to wup your brother in basketball was a gift of God. Everything you have and do is a gift of God. God GAVE all these things to you, and He continues to give them. As Paul writes, "What do we have that we have not obtained?" You have not originated anything, but have merely obtained it. "

http://www.martinzender.com/QA.htm
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Fri Aug 26, 2016 7:50 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Now I need to start the morning, by drinking a Red Bull and chewing on some hot peppers. :!: :lol:



Coffees (pl) for me, thanks! Low fat milk, hold the sugar & extra caffeine. Cheers.

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, (Eph. 2:1)

Zombie, this verse refers to those who were living yet dead, i.e. the living dead, zombies ;

"living dead. living dead - Dictionary definition and meaning for word living dead. (noun) a dead body that has been brought back to life by a supernatural force. Synonyms : zombi , zombie."
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Fri Aug 26, 2016 10:44 pm

Paidion wrote:And that is free will—the ability to choose between alternatives.

Yep that’s exactly what it is… a complete no-brainer!
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:13 am

davo wrote:
qaz wrote:Davo, some people reject God their entire lives, even after AD 70.

Logic would suggest this could be a reasonable assumption… what have you concluded from this?


That every knee has not yet bowed and every tongue not yet confessed.
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Aug 27, 2016 2:32 am

qaz wrote:Davo, some people reject God their entire lives, even after AD 70.


And that is why free will is confined, IMO, to the temporal since the cross, being one who believes in actual redemption. When we leave this temporal body, I have a suspicion that every knee will bow and tongue confess.

I still like the ice cube and the sun :lol:
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Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Sat Aug 27, 2016 3:38 am

Maintenanceman, I think there's a very good chance that every knee will bow and every tongue confess. I just, unlike Davo, don't believe it's happened yet.
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