The Evangelical Universalist Forum

If Eternal Hell Fire Damnation is True . .

Let me add another question for DL. Why do you quote from Robert Ingersoll, who is considered “The Great Agnostic”. Wiki defines Agnosticism this way:

If you are taking an “atheistic” position, then why quote from someone, who’s open to the possibility - of God’s existence?

I will answer you when you do not answer my question with a question.

Regards
DL

I have no problem quoting a moral position I agree with while ignoring an unknowable God position.

Christianity and Islam and most religions were agnostic before they became idol worshipers.

bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Regards
DL

Let’s take your quote:

. Even if a person is an atheist, they have an ethical position. Which comes from the philosophical branch of ethics. So let’s explore your philosophical ethical position a bit. How would you handle the last scenario in this video and why?

or

youtube.com/watch?v=Z7RTykOCcuI

I would choose the only moral tenet that I have not been able to refute in terms of it not being an objective moral tenet.

I think all the other moral tenets that I have discussed have been subjective.

My choice would be that the needs or good of the many outweigh the needs or good of the few.

Your other link did not work for me.

Regards
DL

Good catch. When I copied it over from the embedded link, I missed the last letter. It’s fixed now. So if I understand you correctly, if you had a choice between saving a family member or five strangers, you would choose the five strangers. Because it’s the greater good. Right? :smiley:

Now for another question. Folks who are atheists, usually have favorite philosophers they like. And if I were to choose atheistic philosophers I like (but not necessarily agree with), they would be Friedrich Nietzsche and Ayn Rand. What are yours?

Right? :smiley:

To your last.
That would depend on the issue at hand. I like Socrates.

I have quoted Rand’ views of Eden and have also quoted Nietzsche.

What was your answer to the last scenario of that link?

Regards
DL

Let me reframe that as I wasn’t so much looking for what you might drivel forth as an answer…

This just reflects your own ‘religionists’ messiah complex in that you see yourself as chosen to straighten out that which you deem crooked… talk about the pot calling the kettle black!

Nicely put… but this is EXACTLY what you in your arrogant agnosticism (as you are presenting it) in slagging off at a supposed immoral and murderous “genocidal son murdering prick of a God” just don’t get…

The needs of the greater community of Israel took precedent over the needs of the few, which is why some of the corrupted few paid with their lives (as seen in the OT) in protecting the whole.

As to your “genocidal son murdering prick of a God” jibe… typically the likes of you will always for argument’s sake seek to emotively highlight what you think is a glaring flaw but fail to realise, or more likely dishonestly ignore, that… not all folk of faith believe as you so blatantly caricature. Jesus died in the fight for Israel’s redemption, a redemption that would in turn entail the reconciliation of humanity – the few ON BEHALF OF the many.

Thus your own words “My choice would be that the needs or good of the many outweigh the needs or good of the few.” mitigate against your complaints. :unamused:

Question:

Answer:

**It sounds to me, like you like Ross Perot and Donald Trump, one line answers to questions. ** :exclamation: :laughing:

What’s your one liner to this question?

I think God created “Hell” on purpose…

God also TEMPTED Satan to curse Job…or simply put…BEG god to let him do it!

"Now on the day when God’s sons came to present themselves before Yahweh, Satan also came among them. Yahweh said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”

Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, “From going back and forth in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.”

Yahweh said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is no one like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil.”

Then Satan answered Yahweh, and said, “Does Job fear God for nothing? Haven’t you made a hedge around him, and around his house, and around all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But stretch out your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will renounce you to your face.”

Yahweh said to Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power. Only on himself don’t stretch out your hand.”

Book of Job chapter 1 verses 6-12

I think God created the** MYTH** of hell on purpose to humble humanity…show that he COULD do so IF HE WANTED TO…but since he is simply put ALL LOVING he **CHOSE **not to do!

It was basicly a conscious choice from him…but he always** HAD** the authority to do…and subject ALL OF CREATION to hes willl…he simplyCHOSE not to do since he is by nature A LOVING GOD!

youtube.com/watch?v=tJxuv3S4M0Y

The Fire of the ages(Aionios) is both refreshing and most of all REFINING FIRE…that will BURN AWAY mans impurities…however this will NOT be a pleasent process…

“For the Lord your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.”

Deuteronomy 4:24

“A RIVER OF FIRE was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.”

Daniel 7:10

The fire will wex trial and literally TEST METALS…burning away impurities as if from iron…eventually ALL will be refined…

“Behold, I send my MESSENGER, and he will prepare the way before me; and the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the COVENANT, whom you desire, behold, he comes!” says Yahweh of Armies. “But WHO CAN ENDURE the day of his coming? And **WHO WILL STAND **when he appears? For he is like a REFINERS FIRE, and like LAUNDERERS SOAP; and he will sit as a REFINER AND PURIFIERR of silver, and he will PURIFY THE SONS OF LEVI, and refine them as gold and silver; and they shall offer to Yahweh OFFERINGS IN RIGHTEOUSNESS. Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be PLEASANT TO YAHWEH, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years

Malachi chapter 2:1-4

Hes taking about this thing right here!

"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented(Basanizo) with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 14:9-11

Torment = Basanizo = WRONG TRANSLATION!

It literally means REFINED!

bibletools.org/index.cfm/fus … sanizo.htm

Torment that leads to death would be Tumpanizo in Greek by the way!

s.hswstatic.com/gif/10-medieval- … vices3.jpg

The greek word for here for sulfur is Theoin by the way!

Literally meaning holy stone!

biblehub.com/greek/2303.htm

**
STILL USED IN PURIFICATION EVEN TODAY!**

buzzle.com/articles/sulfur-soap.html

God created Hell…God created Satan…God created ALL THINGS so that ALL THINGS would be subjected to HIM!

“and through him(Yeshua / Christ) to reconcile to himself all things(panta / pantes = “all peaces of the cake”) whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”

Colossians 1:20

He **PURPOSELY **allowed the “Myth of hell” to be born and spread…you can call it a “jester” from him if you will…he TRULY HAS A “TWISTED” SENSE OF HUMOUR!

christadelphia.org/pamphlet/p_lazarus.htm

He is basicly the supreme overlord of the Universe…and THATS IT!

static.srcdn.com/wp-content/uplo … y-Gems.jpg

No if’s…no buts…however since he truly is loving…he wished ALL humanity to be saved…

And therefor…

"Remember the former things, those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me.

I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say, ‘My purpose will stand,
and WHAT I PLEASE I DO!"

Isaiah 46:9-10

It **WILL **happen…and since god does not tolerate ANY KIND OF RESISTANCE…no amouth of either human or angelic “Free will” is going to stop him!

However…

"For EVERYONE will be salted with fire, and EVERY SACRIFICE will be SEASONED WITH SALT. Salt is good, but if the salt has lost its saltiness, with what will you season it? Have salt in yourselves, and be at peace with one another.” "

Mark 9:49-50

“If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved–even though only as one escaping THROUGH THE FLAMES.

1 Corinthians 3:15

We will basicly

ALL be salted and burned in the end!

The question is…how will we both handle and except this process. Either let him burn the sin away from us now…or in Ge-henna(Ge-Himnon = walley of the burning)

In the wallye of Theion = Brimstome = Burning stone!

news.nationalgeographic.com/cont … /75878.jpg

That…atleast to a point…is our choise to make on this earth…

The fire by the way will not be literal but “spirit fire” since it will not be burning “real objects” Again a warning from someone who knows a bit PERSONALLY from Gods trials…this will NOT BE A PLEASENT EXPERIENCE!!!

However…one day it will be completele. The Second death will finally be complete…

biblehub.com/revelation/20-14.htm

And it will be DEAD TO SIN!

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%206

Both disobedience and error!

hebrew4christians.com/Medita … ta_ah.html

Then gods creation will be complete…but in REALITY it already is!

In christ all things WERE ALWAYS COMPLETE!

If not…he would have NOT been able to both forgive sins and heal the sick…while he was still ALIVE

Gods creation has always been COMPLETE…

All imperfection, sickness and misfortune are simply ALLOWED!

God allows imperfection…so that he could fix and purify it!

FOR NO OTHER REASON WHAT SO EVER!!!

Hes creation has ALWAYS been complete…sine neither Yahweh or Yahusua EVER MAKE MISTAKES!

And making a mistake is a **SIN BY THE WAY!
**

God is WITHOUT ERROR!!!

So the salvation of **ALL HUMANITY IS ASSURED!
**

All in do time!

P.S

Oh by the way about that “the soul that sinneth it shall die…”

“The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.”

Ezekiel 18:20King James Version (KJV)

First of all this is in direct relation to the PREVIOUS bible chaper!

“Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done them, he shall surely live.”

Ezekiel 18:19King James Version (KJV)

So there is no mention of souls being destroyed in HADES in this chapter…what he says is simple the SIN comited by the INDIVIDUAL will lead to hes demise…not the sin of the FATHER OR SON!!!

And the word beng used here is the Hebrew Nephesh…supposedly spelled as Ne-fesh…meanin LIFE ITSELF!

“But be sure you do not eat the blood, because the blood is the life(Nephesh) and you must not eat the life(Nephesh) with the meat.”

Deuteronomy 12:23

It is not the same thing as the breath of life, wich would be ruach!

God is spirit(ruach) and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

John 4:24

So killing all but eight of humanity is God putting the needs of the many above the needs of the few.

Go away. You are too stupid even for me.

Regards
DL

And a moral man’s Spirit and truth would teach him that such a God is nor worthy of respect.

In Job 2;3 God admit to being evil and a sinner when he says that Satan moved him to do evil.

The hit man/Satan and his don/Yahweh are both guilty of the murder of Job’s family.

Only immoral souls will respect such a vile demiurge.

Regards
DL

It is sad to see someone be so lost when surrounded by such a huge league of knowledgeable intellect. I myself pray for you, cause you are obviously brought into our midst. You are here for a reason… Weather you know it or not… Or want to agree with it. :laughing:

[size=150]Clearly your continual contrariness here is meeting some deep-seated NEED of yours… so to that degree you are welcome to post away.[/size]

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

Regards
DL

I think it is fair to state that what gnostic bishop fails to realize is that God is working all together for good. All the humans who lost their lives in the flood of Noah’s day will one day be brought back to life and will be given immortality and incorruption. They will all be bowing in the name of Jesus and acclaiming Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the Father. So how does that make him a “genocidal prick”? We are removed by thousands of years from what was so bad in Noah’s day that God had to put an end to. It must have been very egregious. But God is going to make it good in the end where no one will say God was unfair. The people like Gnostic and militant atheists will only use tunnel vision to see what God has done. They refuse to take a step back to see the whole forest. They take a microscope and say “Look here!” They fail to see the goal God has for all mankind. But you know what? One day they will see it too. And that, friends, will be a glorious day!

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQTscc-fGuhHaqmkJSre-JmReg1KRnLA73-cZqj2OeI8rSobx2t

Did you, by chance, work for the Ross Perot campaign? And do you now, work for the Donald Trump campaign? And did you come up with all the one-liners, for both campaigns :question: :laughing:

Hi G.B., It is interesting how you think.
God stacked the deck against Adam and Eve. First of all, He created them flesh, knowing full well in advance that “the flesh is not able to please God” and “is not subject to the law of God” (see Roman 8:6-8 following):

For the disposition of the flesh is death, yet the disposition of the spirit is life and peace, because the disposition of the flesh is enmity to God, for it is not subject to the law of God, for neither is it able." Now those who are in flesh are not able to please God.
(Rom 8:6-8)

So when God laid down the law in the garden “Thou shalt not eat of . . .” He knew they would not be subject to that law and would go against it. He also knew Adam and Eve would not be able to please God in this matter. That is the will He gave them. It is not a will that is free to be able to please God nor free to be subject to His law. Therefore God is supremely culpable in this matter and He obviously wanted the primal pair to fail and thus have death enter into the whole human race so that all would sin. Notice right after they sinned, God brought in the proto-evangel concerning His Son dying to make things right. That was not “plan B”. It was His goal all along.

God also made Adam and Eve soulish knowing full well in advance that:
1Co_2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined."

It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body. If there is a soulish body, there is a spiritual also. Thus it is written also, The first man, Adam, “became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit.” But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
(1Co 15:44-46)

So by God creating Adam and Eve soulish, He knew in advance just what He was doing to stack the deck against them. (Some translations translate “psuchikos” as “natural” but it is the adjectival form of “psuche” which is “soul.”

GB wrote:

I don’t know what you mean by “free will can be taken.” There is no such thing as free will. There is “will” but it is not free. It is the will of the flesh (see John 1:13; Eph.2:3). Since the flesh is at enmity to God and not subject to God’s law, that is our will. It is not free to be friends with God and is not free to do God’s law. God has to change our will by giving of His spirit to override our will of the flesh.

Eusebius

youtube.com/watch?v=3O1_3zBUKM8

If you want to discuss things with logic and reason I am here for you.

If you prefer to hide behind supernatural garbage on what motivates God and speak of issues that you cannot possibly know and put word into God’s mouth or brain, then that link above applies.

“God stacked the deck against Adam and Eve.”

Your overall theme seems to indicate that Yahweh is quite the prick and created A & E imperfect, even though scriptures say all his works are perfect.

I recognize the evolving perfection of mankind.

Seems I give your God more credit than you do.

But if you are correct, why would you follow an immoral and rather satanic God?

Regards
DL

I haven’t read this thread, but I notice the last post here is from Gnostic Bishop. Just to let you know–s/he won’t be answering any replies to his/her remarks for at least a month as s/he has been banned for that period of time on the grounds of general snarkiness on another thread. Please don’t talk about him/her until the month has expired so that s/he can respond to any remarks.