The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Is God Violent In Hell? Does That Influence Us?—Cavanaugh

G - thanks, I’ll look for perhaps a used copy.

Well, I think Hany Mikhail’s teaching on Divine Justice (12 videos) is outstanding! Each one is only 10 minutes long. Here is the first:

youtube.com/watch?v=D28MWNYGYAU

I was also greatly blessed by this joyful Coptic Orthodox praise and worship in Egypt:

youtube.com/watch?v=HnXJ7IWH3PU

Geoffrey, from what I understand, what you are saying seems to be a one size fits all sort of deal; that because God is love and forgives us of sin, no matter what we do in this life it is instantly wiped away, and we become Christ- like upon death. However, God is also truth. In the parable of the laborers that you mention, some may have been laboring earlier than others, but they all labored at some point. Giving birth, whether it be to a creation or a recreation, requires going through “labor”, which is a painful process. I would say that this is the point where we come face to face with the truth. This step seems to be missing in the thought that upon leaving this world, we instantly become Christ-like. There are many that die without seeing the truth.

There is an article in Wiki, to what Geoffrey is referring to:

Aerial toll house

Wiki refers to these 2 main criticisms:

Kind of reminds me of the Bardo Thodol, in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

Thank you. I also appreciate you and all the crowd here on the EU forums. :slight_smile:

Let me amend my statement: Much of modern academic and internet “Orthodoxy” is repulsive.

To LLC, Paidion, and all other universalists who believe in post-mortem corrections:

Perhaps we are not so far apart as it seems on first glance. I was contemplating Paidion’s statement that God’s correction is, generally speaking, more effective post-mortem than before death. This was in the context of my comment that George MacDonald seems to have thought that post-mortem correction would take long ages, while Paidion seems to think that it will not take as long as long ages.

So how long would be too short? Could the correction’s maximum length be measured in decades? In years? Months? Days? Hours? Minutes? Seconds? Fractions of a second?

It seems that we agree that we need to be fixed, and that physical death does not fix us. Christ fixes us. How long does it take Him to do that post-mortem? I think the merest fraction of a second. Consider:

  1. We will no longer be subjected to peer pressure. We have all seen a snotty teenager snap just like that become pleasant when his undesirable peers leave the room.

  2. We will no longer be subjected to the vagaries of our bodies’ chemicals, hormones, etc. We all know about monthly mood swings, or about being cranky because of an empty stomach, etc. No more of all that.

  3. We will no longer have any doubts: Does God exist? Is Christ deity? Which doctrines are true? Is such-and-so true? Etc. We will meet the Truth Himself. Thus, no more mental doubts as to the facts.

  4. We will no longer have our diseased brains. Studies of the brain show that our behaviors literally shape the physical contours of our brains. Our sins can make deep tracks, so to speak, in our brains, making it hard for us to shake those sinful behaviors. Drug, alcohol, and pornography addiction are examples of this. No more twisted brains holding us back!

  5. We are subjected to all the demonic spiritual influences of living in a fallen world. Surely such influences will be absent in the immediate presence of the enthroned Christ.

So what would take long? All or nearly all of our impediments will be absent by our change of venue. Our only handicap left us will be the stains on our souls. We will be confronted by God Himself in Heaven, the Omnipotent One. Surely such a One will operate at maximal efficiency in cleansing us from our sinful inclinations. What is the maximum efficiency I can imagine for Omnipotence? 0.0000000000000000000000000000001 second. :slight_smile:

That was some very inspiring music!! I was not expecting that…

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRlCNq63C6aj836ql3DTzejCjtzAaTQtALX2x5s_psYt4CDGuMZWg

Neither did I :exclamation: :laughing:

Zombie’s humour is sending me over the clef:laughing: :laughing:

Keep it up…I’m taking notes.

Honestly, I basically ignore the book of Revelation. Its imagery can be interpreted in so many and varied ways that I would never base any doctrine on a passage therein. In fact, not even a single verse of the book of Revelation is ever read during any Orthodox liturgy.

That said, the book about Revelation that I like the best was Eugenio Corsini’s The Apocalypse: The Perennial Revelation of Jesus Christ. His overall thesis is that the book of Revelation is about Jesus Christ’s First Coming, not His Second Coming. Thus there is no information about the future or about post-mortem sufferings in the book of Revelation. Of course, any interpretation of the book of Revelation is uncertain, to say the least.

Geoffrey said:

Oh Yea! :exclamation: :exclamation: :smiley:

Do you ignore it as well? If so, why?

No. Preterists understand the book of Revelation to be concerned mainly with the fall of Jerusalem in A. D. 70 (and the forty years leading up to it). I think the book of Revelation is concerned mainly with Christ’s death, resurrection, ascension, and enthronement in A. D. 30 (and the centuries leading up to it).

I think the book of Revelation is basically a much-expanded version of Christ’s Olivet discourse. I am convinced that Christ’s Olivet discourse was 100% fulfilled when the Holy Spirit descended upon the upper room in Acts 2. I therefore think it likely that the book of Revelation was 100% fulfilled by the same time.

I think one needs to read Acts and the Epistles for information on the Second Coming.

No. Actually I consider all scripture fulfilled, but I appreciate the candor of those who will admit that Revelation does not fit into their current belief system. FWIW, Luther was on the fence about Revelation and some other books. I believe Revelation was about the story of Christ dealing with Israel.

Your take is interesting, but the preterist view of revelation may be not so pigeon holed.

The fulfilment of God’s work with His creation, as in reconciliation, was accomplished through Christ and His dying, and resurrection. And Gods final dealing with the old covenant Israel, can be witnessed historically in what is called the Jewish wars and the fall of Jerusalem. While I agree that revelation is 100 % fulfilled, it is Israel, that was being spoken of, and by prophesy, the rest of us, (humanity) is or was included.

Are you either a partial or full Preterist, by the way? If so, which one?

http://media.rd.com/rd/images/rdc/slideshows/work-cartoons/work-cartoons-10-ss.jpg

It never occurred to me, but one could theroically blend some of the theological positions here. For example:

The optimistic Orthodox view of Geoffrey
The Full Pretestist view of Davo
My Holy Fool theology and P-Zombie philosophy

I really don’t know what that would look like. But it would be interesting :exclamation: :laughing:

HFPZ said:

There you go! :smiley:

If god is violent in hell and if a god actually created a hell, he would definitely be a vile demiurge.

Such a place would be demonstrably immoral and only those who have sold their moral soul to Satan would follow any god who would create or use such a place.

youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc

Regards
DL