The Evangelical Universalist Forum

UR and Thanatophobia

Rumi:
On the day I die, when I’m being carried
toward the grave, don’t weep. Don’t say,

He’s gone! He’s gone. Death has nothing
to do with going away. The sun sets and

the moon sets, but they’re not gone.
Death is a coming together. The tomb

looks like a prison, but it’s really
release into union. The human seed goes

down in the ground like a bucket into
the well where Joseph is. It grows and

comes up full of some unimagined beauty.
**Your mouth closes here and immediately

opens with a shout of joy there.**

Amen.

From my perspective, death is a passing of one life into another. Scripture tells about the resurrection, and yet many fear it will not happen (resurrection) or fear what* it will be like*.

Please don’t get me wrong, death is a fearful and ugly event. I see it year after year in my employment. But* our understanding and faith in Christ *makes it a real part of life, a part we can realize and accept.

And then we can tell others how natural it is. And that a loving Father is waiting.

Indeed, you have found a way to deal with it. In the end, because I am such a skeptic, perhaps more appropriately a ‘doubting Thomas’, I don’t quite see it so rosy. I think death really, really sucks. When my parents die, it going to be the most difficult thing for me to handle. If, God forbid, my children die before me, how I will want to die myself, from the pain of losing them.

In my mind, saying death is merely passing from one plane of existence to another, doesn’t really make me see it any differently. For me, if my son were to leave my home and go away forever (thing of conscripted soldiers back in ancient times) he might as well be dead. Not from his perspective, but from mine and from his perspective, I might as well be dead. Death is about ‘loss’ and we lose the relationship when someone passes on.

I believe very strongly in Jesus Christ, and in God. But, that doesn’t mean my belief is correct. So, as you can see, I am and probably always will be a doubting Thomas. The only difference is, Thomas refused to believe until he seen… I am merely refusing to be dogmatic about it until I see…

But what I want to really hit home on is that others have found different ways to deal with death. In some ways, the atheist has a very healthy outlook on it, because he doesn’t have the luxury of thinking “I don’t need to spend as much time with my kids, because, heck, we will live forever! We will have plenty of time” and so the Christian, the one who expects to live eternally is far more prone, in my opinion, to squander his days and ever acting like an escapist. How many Christians have said to me “Oh, I can’t wait to get out of this hell hole” or even, God bless her, as my mother says “This is the only hell I’ll ever know” - But that outlook isn’t all that good. That is escapism, something Christians are very prone too.

In many ways, a lot of how we deal with this is how we choose to process and accept them. If we accept a belief as strong as a fact, then our brains will allow us to do so. With that said, I can understand the desire and importance to believe ever so strongly that we will be reunited. But, at this stage in my life, I consider that to be trying to accept something as truth, that I am not absolutely convinced beyond a shadow of all doubt. I did that once, and it didn’t get me anywhere… That said, ignorance is bliss. Of this I know… And, for the record, I am NOT calling you ignorant :slight_smile:

All the more, I am thrilled people can come to terms with this. The parent who loses a small child and somehow finds the strength to move on. That is such an admirable quality, but one I just cannot fathom possessing. I don’t think anyone can until they go through it.

"And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:26)

By His death, Jesus Christ obliterated death. While this “mortal trash” (cf. “That Nature Is a Heraclitean Fire and of the Comfort of the Resurrection” by Gerard Manley Hopkins) will certainly die, we shall not. Does a preborn baby die when he emerges from his mother’s womb? Neither shall we die when our bodies die. Our souls shall never cease. One moment we are in this fallen world, and the next we are in Christ’s undimmed presence. I wouldn’t call that “death”. I would call that “much more life”.

Those in Heaven are closer to us than we are to our children as we hug them. We here in this fallen world can speak with our loved ones in Heaven. And our loved ones in Heaven can help us much more than they could when they were in this fallen world, and they now love us with a perfect love (as opposed to the very imperfect loves we have here on earth).

Any fear of physical death we have is a snare of the Devil. Each of us should look upon physical death with serene equanimity. Consider the martyrs who sang for joy as they and their children were martyred. That is the truth to which we must strive with all the strength that is in us. Let us not fear the thing that Christ has slain. “Christ is risen from the dead, trampling down death by death, and upon those in the tombs bestowing life!”

Also, though not on topic, quoting Paul at 1 Cor 15:32 and ignoring the context, doesn’t help a case for anything. If the dead are not raised, then Christ was also not raised, and if Christ is not raised then our lives are worse than in vain.

But Paul was probably quoting his Epicurianesque opponent in the Corinthian church anyway, to rebuke him. The immediately subsequent verses bear on this: he quotes back another philosopher, against him, and tells his readers to stop sinning and following someone who doesn’t know anything about God. After which he more explicitly quotes his opponent, “But someone will say,” etc.

That deserves a hat-tip!

Let’s take that one strep further! :laughing:

John 11 (ESV)
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

In this translation (as well as many others), Jesus words in vs 26 contradicts those in 25. Verse 25 states that some believers who have died, will live again. Verse 26 affirms that no living believers will die. So to get around this contradiction many say that verse 26 is talking about “spiritual death.”
Is it reasonable that Jesus would use the word “die” in one sentence to mean physical death, and in the very next to use it to mean “spiritual” death?

I suggest the problem is in the translation. Verse 26 doesn’t say “shall never die.” It says “shall no way die into the age.” I suggest that “the age” refers to the next age. He was saying that the death of living believers will not continue right into the next age. For Jesus will return at the last day of the present age, and raise them to life again. So verse 26 is actually saying the same thing as verse 25, but in a different way for emphasis. The message is that those who entrust themselves to Christ will not die and stay dead, but will be raised to life again when Christ returns.

In John 6, it is recorded that Jesus said 4 times that He would raise his own to life at the last day (that is, the last day of the present age).

Though most translation have “shall never die,” there are at least 3 that don’t:

Young’s Literal Translation: “shall not die—to the age.”
Rotherham: “shall not in anywise die, unto times age-abiding.”
Douay (Catholic Bible) “shall not die forever.”

True, the Douay could be interpreted as “shall never die.” But it could also be understood as “shall not remain dead forever.”

Yes.

Before Jesus Christ’s death at 3:00 p.m. on April 7, 30, everyone who ever died simply…died. They were no more until Christ awakened them and led them up into Heaven immediately after He died.

After Jesus Christ’s death at 3:00 p.m. on April 7, 30, everyone who ever dies…doesn’t. Their heart stops, they stop breathing, their brain stops functioning, etc. But they themselves rejoice in Christ’s immediate presence.

John 11:25-26 is said almost in counterpoint to verse 24, in which I read the words to be spoken in a sorrowful, almost “So what?” tone: “Yeah, I know my brother will rise on the Last Day, but that could very well be thousands of years in the future, so what does that do for me now?”

In reply Jesus basically said, “The One Who resurrects is standing before you right now. I am going to bring Lazarus to life right now. Further, you need not worry about Lazarus or yourself ever dying again. I am about to destroy death *.”

Jesus said much the same thing to the thief on the cross: “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” (Luke 23:43) And it won’t do to put the comma after the word “today”, since in no other instances of Jesus using the phrase “Assuredly, I say to you” (Matt. 5:26, Matt. 6:2, Matt. 26:34, Mark 14:30, John 3:3, John 3:5, John 3:11, John 13:38, and John 21:18) does Jesus say, “Assuredly, I say to you today”. Moving the comma would make this common speech pattern of Christ’s into something unique.

In John 11:25-26, Jesus gave a prophecy. This was very shortly before His own death (two weeks, perhaps). He knew that between that time and His death, none of His followers would die. Therefore He could say in strict, literal truth, “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die.” Of course, all the people (all of whom were non-believers) who died after Jesus made this statement, but before His own death, really died.

Christ’s death is a vast, huge deal. It destroyed death. Not metaphorically. Not someday. Not conceptually. No. At 3:00 p.m. on April 7, 30, death was slain. Nobody has ever died since then, and nobody ever will. And at the Second Coming, Christ will obliterate physical death even as He already obliterated personal death 1,986 years ago.

“Gospel” indeed. :slight_smile:*

Thanatophobia n,… an abnormal fear of death.

I don’t have a fear of ‘death’ per se BUT I do have a healthy fear “dying” as in… if someone had a knife to my throat you better believe I’d be doing my best to talk them around; yep it’s call “self-preservation” and is a normal human response. According to the definition above ‘thanatophobia’ is an “abnormal fear” of death, meaning fear to a degree where it paralyses someone’s normal everyday functioning. So no, regardless of my soteriological positions I don’t suffer from “thanatophobia”. :sunglasses:

Gabe said:

I appreciate that you don’t think I’m ignorant, though I’ve been called worse things :laughing: But because I consider the truth to be truth (go figure that) and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christ came on this planet, died and was risen, and a promise was made to all mankind through that act of love of a son of the creator God, a God who loved us so, that he allowed the son to do what He did, a son without sin, without blemish.

My testimony to you is to believe what is written about the Christ and about how we are to react and accept that news (about the resurrection). When we put the fear of death behind us, a whole world of opportunities opens itself to us. JUST GIVE IT A TRY! :smiley: :smiley:

P.S. When you do believe, you will realize that death is the open door to commune with the Father. :astonished:

Thanks everybody for weighing in! I love reading these replies - the mean IQ and just plain wisdom of universalists must be exceptionally high :wink: (though we are routinely caricatured as sentimental and irrational :wink: )

Has anybody here had a NDE or know anybody who has had one (or several even)? NDE often cited as miraculous evidence for afterlife (though mostly Hell and the traditional view) Anybody here know of/had an NDE that would confirm UR in some way? (Like you saw Jesus and He said, "Milton and Dante were wrong) :wink: hahahah

Read Elisabeth Kubler Ross’s book: “On Life After Death” You can buy it for not much money at thriftbooks.com I buy them and give them out…

YOU WILL BE ASTOUNDED! :astonished:

I am not afraid of what is after death but I’m not looking forward to the transition. I am looking forward to seeing the Lord Jesus, the Messiah and King of Heaven. He’s the One that I love and live for. My sins which were many are washed away and my heart that has been thrashed and scarred by sin is clean before Him. He is awesome now…how much more it will be when I see Him face to face.

Re: NDE’s . A hugely entertaining and well-researched novel, that uses NDE’s as an exploratory device into the nature of death, is Connie Willis’ book Passage. It’s a long and rich read that is intellectual and very very interesting.
The wiki calls it a science fiction novel - I would not call it that - I would say it’s a thoughtful science-based entertainment with great human interest as well

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passage_(Willis_novel

http://nhne-nde.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/cartoon.jpg

I think this is the link you mean:

Passage (Willis novel)

The best book I’ve read on NDE’s is:

Erasing Death: The Science That Is Rewriting the Boundaries Between Life and Death by Sam Parnia and Josh Young

In the US, you can probably obtain a copy - like I did - via the inter-library loan program. Just ask your local, adult reference librarian. :smiley:

Yep that’s the link, thanks Randy.

No; I’ve been afraid of death before I believed in UR, and also afterwards. More accurately, I am afraid of non-existence. The thought of ceasing to exist forever is the most terrifying thing I can imagine. Before I believed in UR, I never had much trouble believing that I had eternal life through Jesus. (I’m not saying that I think I’m a good person who deserves to go to Heaven; I just think God is infinitely merciful and loving.) I gravitated toward UR because I could not accept a faith in which countless people who were never given a chance to accept Jesus were punished forever because of it. However, I’ve always been plagued with doubts about whether God even exists. These doubts are more emotional than rational; intellectually, I accept the existence of God as being much more probable than the current scientific theories, but I still fear that it may not be true. And if God is not real, then I will not exist anymore after I die. But as C. S. Lewis said,

Personally, I can’t understand why anyone would not want eternal life, at least the kind Jesus offers. I think some people suffer from a failure of imagination if what they conceive of as eternal life is only an endless series of dreary, boring millennia in which we experience time exactly as we do now, and our consciousness is at the same flawed and feeble level it is now.

And Nietzsche’s remark about life being precious only in the midst of death just sounds like romantic nonsense meant to make us stoic and resolute in the face of our impending doom. It reminds me of Achilles in the film Troy saying, “the gods envy us. They envy us because we’re mortal, because any moment may be our last. Everything is more beautiful because we’re doomed.” Well, how would anyone really know whether life is better that way? None of us has ever known a life that’s not surrounded by death.

…14Therefore, since the children have flesh and blood, He too shared in their humanity, so that by His death He might destroy him who holds the power of death, that is, the devil, 15and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16For surely it is not the angels He helps, but the descendants of Abraham.…