The Evangelical Universalist Forum

The Catholic Church and Universalism

Hi everyone - Just saw this thread (I must get on the forum more often!) I’m an adult convert to the RC faith and extremely interested in these topics…Id recommend Balthasar’s book about Hope and Salvation…(I’m blanking on title - but its something like “may we hope all will be saved?”) Id also recommend watching Father Barron’s short you tube video on salvation…he does a very quick-y review of the history of ideas of salvation, and he ends on a very hopeful note.

I suppose I come down as a “hopeful universalist” … I believe God love us all abundantly, and as the RC Church teaches, He wills the salvation of all…does He get His way in the end? I certainly hope so (and pray so)…But I don’t “know”…

Blessings everyone!

A Catholic Reading Guide to Universalism
By Robert Wild

books.google.ca/books?id=AlOUCg … age&q=good goats catholic universalism&f=false

Hi everyone - Just revamping an older thread!

For you fellow Catholics out there…Is it correct that Pope Benedict also has some speeches that indicate a very hopeful universalist position?

Blessings everyone!

On Pope Benedict XVI (aka “Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger”) and universalism, Bishop Robert Barron has written a fine article. I will include a link below with a relevant quotation preceding the link. (Emphases mine.)

“Martin cites some “remarks” of Pope Benedict XVI that have contributed, in his judgment, to confusion on the point in question. He is referring to observations in sections 45-47 of the Pope’s 2007 encyclical “Spe Salvi,” which can be summarized as follows: There are a relative handful of truly wicked people in whom the love of God and neighbor has been totally extinguished through sin, and there are a relative handful of people whose lives are utterly pure, completely given over to the demands of love. Those latter few will proceed, upon death, directly to heaven, and those former few will, upon death, enter the state that the Church calls Hell. But the Pope concludes that “the great majority of people” who, though sinners, still retain a fundamental ordering to God, can and will be brought to heaven after the necessary purification of Purgatory.”

catholicnewsagency.com/colum … aved-2383/
(accessed 02/20/2017)

Therefore, Pope Benedict XVI was not a hopeful universalist, but rather a hopeful almost-universalist. (The Anglican Bishop N. T. “Tom” Wright has taken a similar stance in the past.)

A word on my own beliefs:

It is my understanding that Roman Catholicism has in fact never authoritatively condemned the convinced universalist position. (That is, I am inclined to agree with Geoffrey’s comments on this thread.) It was popular among several Roman Catholic theologians (von Balthasar, Rahner, de Lubac, Pope John Paul II, etc.) to hope for the salvation of all without asserting it. I suspect that this is because they feared creating divisions within the church. As St. Paul said, “if what I eat causes my brother or sister to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause them to fall.” (1 Corinthians 8:13)

I think that the ecumenical aspect of universalism – the fact that most people simply do not and cannot embrace it – is often ignored. We’re so obsessed with knowledge (which puffs up) that we forget how to love and build up.

I would also like to add that part of the problem with the universalism debates in the Catholic Church (and elsewhere) is the lack of consensus on and understanding of the nature of “free will.” For example, what Aquinas meant by free will was considerably different from what C. S. Lewis meant by free will. It is typical today for theologians today (like Jerry Walls or Roger Olson) to use free will as a defense for eternal hell. The problem with that is that only the “libertarian” concept of free will can really assert this. In my opinion, using libertarian free will as a justification for eternal hell is not intellectually satisfying. (Considering that I share this position with a theologian as imminent as David Bentley Hart, I feel that I am in rather excellent company for maintaining it.)

What is the most likely outcome of a universe loved and sustained by a god revealed perfectly by the man Christ Jesus? Is it not, in the beautiful words of Christoph Blumhardt, “Behold, everything is God’s!” and “Jesus can judge but not condemn”?

On pages 2-3 (footnote 6) of her tome, Ramelli states:

" On 7.IV.2008 the Orthodox bishop Hilarion of Vienna at the first world congress on Divine Mercy observed that the Orthodox concept of hell corresponds to the Catholic concept of Purgatory. Timothy (Kallistos) Ware, an Orthodox monk and metropolitan of Dioclea, in How Are We Saved? The Understanding of Salvation in the Orthodox Tradition (Light&Life, 1996), shows that the doctrine of apokatastasis is part and parcel of the Orthodox tradition."

“In 2005 Card. Murphy O’Connor, the Catholic archbishop of Westminster, observed that the doctrine of universal salvation is compatible with the Catholic faith. John Paul II, who wanted to create Hans Urs von Balthasar a cardinal before his death, on 28.VII.1999 declared that eternal damnation remains a possibility, but humans cannot know whether it will involve human beings, and which. In a message to the general Abbess of the order of “SS. Salvatore di S. Brigida” he defined Christ “the eternal, invincible guarantor of universal salvation.” On 24.V.1989 he defined the work of Christ as aiming at “universal salvation,” and the Holy Spirit as “the guarantor of the definitive triumph over sin and the world that is subject to sin, in order to liberate it from sin.” In his Encyclical letter Redemptor hominis he declared that “every human being” has been included in the mystery of Redemption,and Christ “has united himself with each one, even when the human being is unaware of this.” See also below, the Conclusions of the present monograph.”

I wonder if the Roman Catholic concept of Purgatory was derived from the early Catholic teachings (which the Orthodox maintained). In the middle ages, the RC simply added the idea of ECT in hell for the majority of mankind.

First post here, not a Roman Catholic myself (yet), but I just read through the Documents of Vatican II and was blown away by the sheer quantity and point-blank Universal Reconciliation statements. I don’t think there are many that know about this, and that should change. I recently spoke with Gary Amirault of Tentmaker and he wasn’t aware of this either.

These documents were put together over a few years in the 1960s and are viewed – apart from the Bible and tradition – as pretty much the foundation of the modern Catholic church, from what I gather. I put together a pdf and word doc with excerpts from those documents that touch on Universal Reconciliation. It comes to 26 pages. If UR happens to be your favorite topic as it is mine, I’d wager you’d find this very interesting and, maybe, encouraging.

Please let me know if there’s a way I can post it here, or feel free to email me and I can send it as well.

God bless,
Pete
peterhinners@gmail.com

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Welcome aboard, pete. I’d be interested in reading that. I wonder if Gary will post it on his site. You could create a new thread here on the topic & post a page or a few at a time until all 26 are posted. A condensed version with the best quotes & references to the rest might be something to consider also.

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The best way is to find a link (or links) and share it. I have great respect, for the Roman Catholic church - since Vatican II. As well as the Eastern Orthodox church. In fact, in terms of motorcycle gang terminology. I would be a prospect of both churches. I eventually want to become - a full, patched in member…of either the OCA (Orthodox Church of America) motorcycle gang or the RC (Eastern Church Branch) motorcycle gang.

The Levels of Club Affiliation

I also like how RC priest - Father Richard Rohr…of Wisdom and Contemplation…also covers other aspects, of what I call experiential spirituality. I’m a big believer in it. As long as it comes, from an ancient and established tradition. And not some new age, goofy stuff.

Let me quote a bit, from Fr. Richard Rohr’s newsletter, I received today:

The common view of hell and a quid pro quo God is based not on Scripture but on Dante’s Divine Comedy —great poetry, but not good theology. The word “hell” is not mentioned in the first five books of the Bible. Paul and John never once use the word. Most of the Eastern fathers never believed in a literal hell, nor did many Western mystics.

Hi again! Just submitted my paper to mercyuponall.org that highlights the many and surprisingly in-your-face Universal Reconciliation quotes from the Documents of the Vatican II (1962-1965). Just those excerpts came to roughly 26 pages. Here is one example: “…the Gospel’s message that the human race was to become the Family of God” (Gaudium et Spes 32).

Here is the link: http://www.mercyuponall.org/2018/09/22/universal-reconciliation-in-the-roman-catholic-church-encouraging-references/

But again, feel free to email me directly if you’d care for a pdf or word version.

God bless!
Pete

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Well done! And very convincing. Thanks.

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The Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches and related historical churches… are much more open to universalism…at least to pray for it or hope for it…then are their Protestant counterparts. I’m in dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church of America, about becoming a prospect. Then in a few months or so,…I’ll become a full, patched in member - of one of them.

Do they have their own line of leathers?

I don’t know. But they do have their own patches they wear…to signify you are an “official” member.

If you are patched in, will your free-thinking, free-spirited avatar have to go? Will you become stodgy, lemming-like, ‘evangelical’? Must you repudiate the Red Road, holistic healing, and other interesting accessories to your vision?May it not be so, Randy!! Stay you, you! :slight_smile:

ape%20not%20evangelical

Not necessarily, Dave. Especially if I go the Catholic Church route. You see, there are Roman Catholic, Native Americans - who also practice the Native spiritual ways. Some are even dual spiritual citizens. You will find folks, that are both Native American medicine men and Catholic priests.

Holistic health has nothing to do with religion. And no one has a monopoly, on spiritual healing. I can still be into homeopathy, Ayurveda and Traditional Chinese Medicine (actually, I know a Chicago Chinese doctor into this…and he has a US Calvinist, theological degree…see Agape Healing, under “who we are”)

And I can express things, from the EC theological viewpoint (that’s the Eastern Catholic Church viewpoints) - without conflict. I would just say I hold it, as a minority theological viewpoint…although if you count the EO churches as a whole - outside the RC structure - it’s a huge difference.

And I don’t think either the RC or EO churches, have an “official” position on Zombies…or what happens during the tribulation.

Good! I hope (if you go through with it) that it works out very well for you.

Well, I know what to expect. I have friends who are Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox…And have known them for years. I’m just an inquirer or potential prospect now. Besides, Geoffrey used to belong to this forum…he was an EO member…and expressed theological opinions, like “instant transformation and redemption of all - at death”.

This short YouTube video dispirits the rich heritage, of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches.

I’m in accord with this comment, from a YouTube commentator:

Their differences are minimal, the Catholics represent the Western countries, and the Orthodox are representative of the Eastern countries. Both churches celebrate Mass/Liturgy and revere Saint Mary as well as Jesus Christ. Enough with the interdenominational conflicts. We should reserve our energies for praying and worshipping Jesus Christ, the Only One True Savior and Redeemer of the World.

@Joe121589

I’m a recent Catholic convert from nondenominational Evangelicalism (though I’ve retained tremendous respect for Evangelical Christians and love them as brothers and sister in Christ). I take dogmas and heresy very seriously, so I’ve tried my best to understand what I as a Catholic am obligated to affirm. Through personal study of Catholic dogmas, I’ve come to the conclusion that my dogmatic universalism is acceptable. I now am very outspoken about it around other Catholics.

However when I first was convinced of universalism, I wasn’t so sure that it was an acceptable position. The priests at my local parish say dogmatic universalism is clear heresy. This sent me into deep emotional turmoil because I am deeply committed to the Church’s teachings. So being sneaky, I found another a priest at another parish in uptown Charlotte. It was a relief to hear the words “you don’t have to believe anyone is in Hell. Period.” He also told me he knows Catholic professors who are dogmatic universalists and he thinks it’s not heretical.

Anyways, as to how I cast universalism into Catholic terms, I interpret Hell and Purgatory to be states, not places. Both reside in the place called Gehenna. So in a sense, I can say those who go to “Purgatory” are in Hell/Gehenna. The problem is that talking this way confuses Catholics because the notion of a purgatorial hell has been so wholly separated from notion of what the call Hell.

If you say “Hell is temporary” while referring to what the Church calls “Hell,” you’re a heretic. That is because they’ve dogmatically defined Hell to be eternal. But you are not required to believe it’s a place. Hell can be a state. But Hell as defined by the Church must be understood as eternal.

But if you say “hell is temporary” while referring to what the Church calls “Purgatory,” you only get traditional priests calling you a modernist, which isn’t nearly as bad. :joy: