List of those of who reject traditional hellism

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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby DaveB » Tue Jul 08, 2014 8:17 pm

Pog, I think I sent you a citation from Paul Tillich; this would have been some months back. Did you get it, or shall I send it again?
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Wed Jul 09, 2014 1:31 am

Sorry Dave, I must have totally missed the Tillich one :( Can you post the info here, with a recommended category? I'm not conversant with his work or position. Apologies.

Cindy, you're more than welcome - but it's Dick that deserves most of the credit, his historical research has proved invaluable. :)

Sobornost: no worries :)

Anyone know if Jason is able to provide any new info/updates after reading Ramelli?

Also, anyone know about this L Ray Smith chap?

And I'm a bit concerned about how spotty the annihilationist sections are - I've looked, and sought help from annis, but no dice :(

And do we still have no German readers who can sort something for Jens Adam?

I'll expand a few more of the bios while I wait :) (up to/ including Reitan) - I notice some bios are still a little sparse. Like Morwenna Ludlow - I don't even have info on here denomination? Anyone know? And Robin Parry!?
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby Cindy Skillman » Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:55 am

I'm going to tag @JasonPratt for you, Pog, re your question for him in your preceding post.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby DaveB » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:11 am

"Therefore, the Christian message points to an ultimate salvation which cannot be lost because it is reunion with the ground of being. This ultimate salvation is also the ultimate revelation, often described as the 'vision of God". The mystery of being is present without the paradoxa of every revelation in time and space and beyond anything fragmentary and preliminary.

This does not refer to the individual in isolation. Fulfillment is universal. A limited fulfillment of separated individuals would not be fulfillment at all, not even for these individuals, for no person is separated from other persons and from the whole of reality in such a way that he could be saved apart from the salvation of everyone and everything. One can be saved only within the Kingdom of God which comprises the universe. But the Kingdom of God is also the place where there is complete transparency of everything for the divine to shine through it. In his fulfilled kingdom, God is everything for everything. This is the symbol of ultimate revelation and ultimate salvation in complete unity.
The recognition or nonrecognition of this unity is a decisive test of the character of a theology."

Paul Tillich, Systematic Theology, vol. 1
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Fri Jul 11, 2014 10:40 am

Thanks Cindy and Dave :)

Dave, do you think Tillich should be put as a convinced universalist, yes?
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby DaveB » Fri Jul 11, 2014 12:19 pm

"Tillich should be put as a convinced universalist"?


Yes, as well as being a convinc-ING universalist :D
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:02 am

Bios updated as far as Tutt.

Tillich added.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby Quest_for_truth » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:08 am

This is from the book, "The Gospel: Universal Restoration," by Richard Kirsch ...

Dr. [G Campbell] Morgan was dubbed "The Prince of Expositors" and "the leading Bible expositor of the 20th Century" by Revell publishers on the back dust jacket of Morgan's book, "An Exposition of the Whole Bible" (25th printing, January 1993). Here's the first of two G. Campbell Morgan UR quotations cited in Kirsch's book:

G. Campbell Morgan -- "We cannot conceive of a Creator who knows the end from the beginning, one who is Love, who has infinite wisdom, and infinite power, giving to any being life, life which is never to end, but to continue in suffering to all eternity. The Bible does not teach it anywhere in the original languages. God's punishments are remedial and take place within the span of the ages during which He is accomplishing the making of man in His image and likeness. Punishment will last no longer than is necessary to bring man to hate his sin and be reconciled to his Saviour. As the judgment came unto all men, even so the free gift came unto all men [Romans 5:18-19]. -- From a sermon in Westminster Chapel, London called "The Cross and the Ages to Come."
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:06 am

Cheers for the info, Quest for Truth :)

I'll add him into the 20thc convinced universalists (by the sound of that quote). Could you have a look over the entry and see if you think it's ok for him? I admit to not knowing much about him, so clarification of his views would be helpful. Thanks for the contribution, and apologies for the slowness of my response - I only check in every now and again (my bad).
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby Quest_for_truth » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:15 am

I’ve double-checked the quote and it’s good to go.

Here’s a little more biographical information from The Gospel – Universal Restoration by Richard Kirsch …” G. Campbell Morgan, respected and loved throughout the Christian world, had a vast following in this country from coast to coast. He preached to congregations from Los Angeles to London, making the Bible vibrant and alive to children, ministers, and laymen. His more than fifty books have been read by nearly a million people, and his writings are continuing to bring the light of his incomparable exposition to new generations.

Dr. Morgan’s splendid powers of Biblical analysis and synthesis made him the leading Bible expositor of [the 20th] century.”

He lived from 1863 to 1945. He preached his first sermon at age 13, and by age 15 was preaching regularly in country chapels. About this time he became involved with the ministry of evangelist D. L. Moody. In his later days he persuaded the well known evangelical D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones to join him at Westminster Chapel in London in 1939. My impression is that he was not known as a Christian Universalist during most or all of his lifetime.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Tue Oct 07, 2014 1:58 am

Cheers Quest! :)

Reminder placeholder for me:

'She lists the following: “Bardaisan, Clement, Origen, Didymus, St. Anthony, St. Pamphilius Martyr, Methodius, St Macrina, St. Gregory of Nyssa (and probably the two other Cappadocians [!]), St Evagrius Ponticus [saint in Oriental Orthodox Churches?], Diodore of Tarsus, Theodore of Mopsuestia, St. John of Jerusalem, Rufinus, St. Jerome [until his famous repudiation of Origen] and St. Augustine (at least initially), Cassian, St. Isaac of Nineveh, St. John of Dalyatha, Ps. Dionysius the Areopagite, probably St. Maximus the Confessor, up to John the Eriugena” (p. 11). St Ambrose of Milan also comes close with his belief in the salvation of the baptized.'

Which Clement is it? Same for the rest ... Which Didymus etc

Bios updated as far as Alfeyev,Hilarion.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Wed Nov 19, 2014 4:18 am

I've added a rough entry for Athanasius under disputed universalists, early church. Help with his entry would be appreciated :)
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby AndreLinoge » Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:55 pm

Keith Ward

"God's will, however, is not destruction, but life: 'As in Adam all die, so in Christ shall all be made alive'. This 'all' is not to be dismissed lightly. It sets up a correspondence between the universal estrangement of humanity, from which none are exempt, and the universal reconciliation of humanity, which similarly refers to human nature as such, and therefore includes all individuals who share human nature. Elsewhere, Paul stresses the same theme: 'One man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men'" (Religion & Human Nature, pp.320f.)
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:22 am

Good quote, Andrei - thanks for that. I'll include it with Keith Ward's bio :)
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby AndreLinoge » Sat Jan 03, 2015 4:12 pm

Maybe Paul Tournier?
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby AndreLinoge » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:49 pm

Beatrice Bruteau

"Nor is death a cut-off, after which its too late and God has to give up. God never gives up, but pursues people forever, hoping to convince them that they are unconditionally loved. This is God's 'radical optimism'!"
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Thu Jan 15, 2015 3:39 am

I cant say I know the names, Andre.

Could you provide some bios and quotes/sources?

Or if anyone else can, please do so :)
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby SusanStoHelit » Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:22 am

Hi pog,

Paul Tournier: http://danmusicktheology.com/paul_tournier/ - this is a dissertation or thesis project on whether he was a universalist, with the conclusions that yes he was. And hre is a (lengthy, sorry) quote:

"That you say as a theologian that I am a universalist is evident, in the sense that I believe that Jesus was sent into the world to save the sinners that we all are. This is what I understand Saint Paul to say when he mentions that sin has entered the world through one man, Adam, and spread to all men, and that he calls Jesus the second Adam through Whom redemption entered the world for all men, and even as he says 'all of creation,' that the redemption of Christ is the victory of God over the Fall. I believe that this great plan of salvation is universal, concerns not only all men but the universality of the world and that Jesus on the Cross has accomplished this Salvation, this reconciliation of men with God, that the 'chastisement' as Isaiah says is fallen upon Him to free men from the malediction of the Fall. This plan of God therefore seems to be collective, global, universal.

"But I know well that many believers whom I love and whose fervor I admire and whom I consider as my brothers, are more pre-occupied with individual salvation and can refer to numerous Biblical texts concerning individual perdition, hell, and even Jesus' words, at least as these have been reported by his disciples.

"I stay away with the greatest efforts from any polemics with these brothers. I have several times refused to speak up on such subjects that could open the door to theological controversies that would separate us from one another. This letter which I am writing to you today is very exceptional and I write it only because you force me to. I have participated with much zeal, sincerity and conviction in religious controversies while I was young, fighting for Calvinistic orthodoxy against liberal theology. It is God, at least I believe so, Who stopped me on this road where I was boasting myself to be right and others wrong, whereas there were as many shortcomings in my piety and my behavior. And I notice that when Jesus spoke of the last Judgement the criterion which he chose to separate those on his left from those on his right is not their theological credo, but their charitable behavior. And as we all recognize to have fallen short of charity we find ourselves altogether able to count only on His grace."

I speak German and have been unable to find a quote by Jens Adam, I'm afraid, although if someone else can find one I'd be happy to translate it.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby SusanStoHelit » Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:33 am

Are you still looking for more info on Morwenna Ludlow? I think she must be CofE because her bio at Exeter says she is "a Church of England representative in ecumenical dialogue with the Church of Scotland". There's more about her here: http://humanities.exeter.ac.uk/theology/staff/ludlow/
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Fri Jan 16, 2015 6:06 am

Cheers Susan that's great. I'll have some time (I hope) next week, so I should be able to do a few more updates and add those in.

I know that Jens Adam has a book on Pauline Universalism (in German) - but I don't own it, nor do I know of any extracts from it.

Perhaps more info from here:
http://www.amazon.de/Paulus-die-Vers%C3%B6hnung-aller-Heilsuniversalismus/dp/3788723688/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1421417178&sr=8-1&keywords=Paulus+und+die+Vers%C3%B6hnung+aller
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby SusanStoHelit » Fri Jan 16, 2015 11:20 pm

Yes. I did read the blurb on amazon and it says that the book is a contribution to the debate on Universal reconciliation by examining the writings of Paul, (but without giving any quotes from the book). It then appeared to say that more recent examination of the findings suggests that Paul having universalist views is not a tenable position, but I will have to check that with someone who actually does theology in German to be sure I didn't misunderstand something.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:17 am

That's interesting - I wonder if we've mis-catergorised Jens Adam.

I've updated Morwenna Ludlow's entry (thanks), and created an entry for Tournier - could you have a quick look over it and see if it's ok?

Regarding Beatrice Bruteau, should she be put under pluralist universalists or convinced universalists (or elsewhere) - I don't know about her?
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby SusanStoHelit » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:04 am

She seems a little unusual, certainly. I don't really know what to make of her. This is quite an interesting article (written by her) http://www.crosscurrents.org/eucharist.htm and I would say, based on that, that she was more of a pluralist (she died last November), but it doesn't say anything specific about life after death. Maybe @AndreLinoge knows more?

And here's a bio for her: Beatrice Bruteau was a pioneer in the integrated study of science, mathematics, philosophy, religion, and interspirituality. With a background in Vedanta and Catholic Christianity, as well as the natural sciences, she developed a broad, inclusive vision of human reality in its cosmic and social contexts. Analyzing the systemic and metaphysical roots of our social inequities, she offered an alternative worldview, featuring the incomparable value of each person and the community dynamics of mutual respect and care that follow from that view. This theme is developed as global spirituality, not limited to any particular religious tradition but accessible in direct human terms common to all.
(copy-pasted from http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/ ... php?id=281)

The stuff on Paul Tournier looks fine but I don't really know much about him.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby akimel » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:46 am

An update on Met Hilarion Alfeyev's views: IN his latest book Orthodox Christianity (vol. 2) he appears to have retreated from his more hopeful universalist stance to a more traditional free-will understanding of damnation.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby Geoffrey » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:06 am

akimel wrote:An update on Met Hilarion Alfeyev's views: IN his latest book Orthodox Christianity (vol. 2) he appears to have retreated from his more hopeful universalist stance to a more traditional free-will understanding of damnation.


How disappointing. One can't read the Orthodox liturgies without reading about universalism over and over. Right now I'm reading "Saturday in the fifth week of the Great Fast on which we sing the Akathistos Hymn to the Most Holy Theotokos". Universalism is on more than 50% of the pages. For example, I just finished reading Canticles Four and Five. On these two pages are found the following:

"Hail, mercy-seat of the world, O lady undefiled; hail, ladder raising all men from the earth by grace."

"Hail, All-blameless, who hast saved the world from drowning in the flood of sin."

"Hail, slayer of hell [hades], bridal chamber full of light."

That's three passages in two pages whose interpretations are most naturally universalistic. It would require lots of absurd footnotes otherwise:

Footnote 1: "All" does not mean "all". "All" means "some". Only some men are raised from the earth by grace. Oh, those Byzantines sure liked to exaggerate!

Footnote 2: "The world" does not mean "the world". Rather, it means "some people who live in the world". Once again, we see how imprecise and poetic those tricky Byzantines were.

Footnote 3: "Slayer of hell [hades]" does not mean that the Theotokos puts an end to death. Certainly not. The second death will exist to all eternity, with plenty of eternally lost sinners consigned forever to hell [hades]. The passage merely means that a certain (unknown) percentage of men will escape hell [hades]. Oh, those silly Byzantines! Aren't you lucky you have us smart commentators to make sure you don't actually believe what these texts (only seem!) to say?


In contrast, the passages which (out of their greater context) could possibly be pressed into service to teach non-universalism are vanishingly rare. I can read these liturgies for days without coming across one, while I have NEVER read Orthodox liturgies for more than 10 or 15 minutes at a time without reading gloriously universalistic passages. (And I have read at over 1,700 pages of liturgies.) The entire tenor of the Orthodox liturgy is universalistic. One would have to pretty much ignore the whole point of the proclamations of the litugry (which amounts to "Christ saves His entire creation!"), while rooting around for a few scattered phrases, and trying to press them into subverting the plain meaning of the liturgies as a whole.

It never ceases to amaze me.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:44 am

Oh my - thanks for the update info. If you can give me a couple of quotes from his recent book to confirm his new position that would be great. I'll move him into the ex-universalist category.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby AndreLinoge » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:23 pm

R. Kirby Godsey of Mercer University seemed pro UR in his book "When We Talk About God Let's Be Honest". Although, his theology is moderate-liberal. He calls the Virgin Birth a myth, but believes in the Resurrection.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby AndreLinoge » Sun May 17, 2015 9:09 pm

Marylin Mcord Adams

Adams' work in philosophy has focused on the philosophy of religion, especially the problem of evil, philosophical theology, metaphysics and medieval philosophy. Her work on the problem of evil largely focuses on what she calls "horrendous evils".[3] She is an avowed Christian universalist, believing that ultimately all will receive salvation and restoration in Christ:
Traditional doctrines of hell err again by supposing either that God does not get what God wants with every human being ("God wills all humans to be saved" by God's antecedent will) or that God deliberately creates some for ruin. To be sure, many human beings have conducted their ante-mortem lives in such a way as to become anti-social persons. Almost none of us dies with all the virtues needed to be fit for heaven. Traditional doctrines of hell suppose that God lacks the will or the patience or the resourcefulness to civilize each and all of us, to rear each and all of us up into the household of God. They conclude that God is left with the option of merely human penal systems – viz., liquidation or quarantine!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marilyn_McCord_Adams
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby addseo1115 » Thu May 21, 2015 12:14 am

Great knowledge. Thank you so much for posting the interesting idea.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby pog » Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:45 am

Reminder to self - include David bentley Hart somewhere.
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby zaidagal » Fri Nov 13, 2015 5:05 am

How about adding Julian of Norwich to the hopeful universalist list? :)
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby sven » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:25 am

I read that the current Pope Francis believes in annihilationism (as his personal opinion), maybe somebody wants to further investigate this:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/abou ... ce-of-hell
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Re: List of those of who reject traditional hellism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:19 am

sven wrote:I read that the current Pope Francis believes in annihilationism (as his personal opinion), maybe somebody wants to further investigate this:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/abou ... ce-of-hell


Well, I have read the article. And I notice, it also says this:

Fr. Thomas Rosica, English-language assistant to the Holy See Press Office, told LifeSiteNews, “All official, final texts of the Holy Father are found on the Vatican website,” and since they were never published by the Holy See Press Office they “should not be considered official texts.” They were, said Fr. Rosica, “private discussions that took place and were never recorded by the journalist.”

“Mr. Scalfari reconstructed the interviews from memory,” Father Rosica added.


Since these conversations were not recorded and reconstructed by the journalist - from memory. And Pope Frances...in the tradition of the CIA (and myself here - at times)...Is neither affirming nor denying this...It's hard to say, what the truth is. But he probably gave it, as a private opinion. But not as an OFFICIAL opinion, as head of the RC Church.

It's interesting that, I side with the article Purgatorial Conditionalist. Where I believe the final fate of mankind, is some hybrid of possible, potential universalism and conditional immortality. But If I were Roman Catholic, I could NEVER say that - as a member. But as an Eastern Orthodox or Anglican, I could hold that position - as a theological opinion. Since historical church fathers, sided with universalism, annihilation and ECT (and I would add, possible self-imposed exile). And one can find texts in scripture, for all these positions. But I would first add (like Anglican Bishop, NT scholar - NT Wright says), you need to determine - whether descriptions of hell, are literal or metaphorical (i.e. see https://youtu.be/vggzqXzEvZ0).

Probably - as a Roman Catholic...I could hold the opinion, that hell is really some type - of self-imposed exile (like authors CS Lewis and Joshua Ryan Butler entertain). That the descriptions are metaphorical. And hopefully, all will eventually be saved.

Here's an interesting article, I came across today:


Just a footnote here. The article position entitled Purgatory now, hell later by C.S. Lewis, is similar to second chance theology (where hell is now Hades), presented at:


As far as hell goes, the devil says business is picking up :!: :lol:

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