I found this board because I have a couple of questions about Universalism. I’m sorry if they’ve been asked before (I’m sure they have), but I’m having a difficult time finding my way around, being new here.

First, how do you personally, in your own brand of Universalism, explain Jesus’ statement about the narrow gate? I’d like to believe that many, at least, will eventually find their way to Him, but to me, He seems to be saying that hardly any will be saved.

Second, how do you defend the idea of the immortality of the human soul absent the indwelling Holy Spirit? I have looked and looked for this in my Bible using all the search tools I can think of, and it seems to me that Jesus has had to GIVE eternal life to His sheep, which would tend to indicate that His sheep did not, previous to becoming His, have eternal life. I can see no reasons, Biblically, to define an eternal but unpleasant and painful life as “eternal death.” People today have miserably painful lives in many cases, but we do not say that their life is death. It looks to me like the Bible does not teach that the human soul is, by default, immortal. Later I found that apparently this idea of immortality (good or bad) for all originated with Plato. If that’s the case, it would explain why I can’t find it in my Bible.

Because of this, I suppose I would best categorize my own beliefs as annihilationist with the qualifier that I don’t necessarily believe that death is the point at which our decisions (or lack of decisions) are hardened beyond change (I can’t find that in my Bible either). It’s hard also (for me, at least) to find that there’s any hope beyond the final judgment, so I would tend to think that this point is the last opportunity to repent, beyond which there is just retribution and then nothing remains. It’s sad to think of, since I have so many friends and loved ones who are rebellious enough to make me wonder if they would love Jesus even when the time comes that we will all see Him face to face.

I’m not trying to be argumentative, but I really and truly want to know. If these topics are discussed in Gregory MacDonald’s book, I’ll buy a copy, but I don’t want to waste my time reading through yet another whole book only to find that the author didn’t discuss the question I came to the book in hope of gaining light on, or that he doesn’t discuss it in sufficient depth to persuade or dissuade me.

Thanks so much for your help!

Cindy Skillman

Christ’s later teaching about this (Luke 13:22-30) features much more detail than the report from earlier in His ministry (Matt 7:13). I find that it reads, in context of the story it occurs in, as an unexpected Synoptic reversal warning story to the person who asks the question: the person asking the question wanted justification for his belief that only a few people would earn their way into heaven, but he (“you” in the rebuke) is the one who will be left standing outside weeping and gnashing his teeth at all the people from the four corners of the world (not only from Israel) coming to recline (i.e. to eat at the feast table) in the kingdom of God. The finale to this pericope (“Now look here!–some are last who will be first and some are first who will be last!”) is a standard saying of Jesus warning of religious hypocrisy and the shocking surprise on the way to those who consider themselves the religious elite.

Even in Matt 7:13-14, the saying follows sayings (repeated during the travel ministry reported in GosLuke) about God caring for people more than for glorious flowers which are thrown tomorrow in the fire; warnings against judging lest we be judged; related warnings against moral hypocrisy; the expectation that God will give good, not evil, to His children; and the Golden Rule (“however you want people to treat you, you also do so for them”). And it is followed by warnings against false teachers whom we should recognize by bad fruit, and a warning that even some who have done miracles in His name and recognize Jesus as “Lord Lord” will not be entering the kingdom of heaven but were doers of injustice.

Fortunately, salvation from sin is not only up to the responsibility of those who seek to enter by the narrow gate or narrow path, but is even more primarily the responsibility of the Way Himself–the Good Shepherd Who goes out after the 100th sheep which hasn’t found its way home (and maybe wasn’t even trying to)!

The same way I defend the existence at all of anyone or anything (such as we ourselves once were!) which does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling: God acts to keep those things in existence anyway. Just like God acts to resurrect the wicked. They don’t resurrect themselves, nor does anything else do so!

Yep! Yet they (we) existed anyway, by the grace of God. Moreover, this means eonian life is not merely continuation of existence; consequently the continuing existence of something does not mean God has to be giving it eonian life. But God may be continually giving it another kind (or kinds) of life; indeed has to be doing so if the life continues.

Agreed. But not remotely a problem. That isn’t a position most Christian scholars take nowadays, whether they’re ECT, Kath, or Anni in their logic of eschatological judgment.

(It occurs to me we need a term for that three-option set, though, since it isn’t quite eschatology or soteriology exactly. Crisiology maybe?–the logic of the Crisis?)

C. S. Lewis would agree. Typically a good idea to be on his side of a dispute.

Possibly they won’t; but then, I don’t think retribution means the opposite of re-tribute-ing either.

We have a lot of material scattered around the forum on this; but I’ll be covering one of the important New Testament and Old Testament witnesses on this during my upcoming debate a few weeks from now. (Let’s just say there is more re-tribut-ion in the story behind 2 Thess 1:9 than is commonly accounted for. Or translated for that matter!)

Welcome to the forum, btw!

Welcome Cindy I am glad that you are not afraid to ask hard questions and as Jesus promised, ask and you will receive. I cannot promise that all my answers will be satisfactory or even perfect, however that is why this forum is so great. So many people older and wiser than I have wrestled with these questions before (trust me its all part of accepting something so radical), they will probably reply to you soon. However I will take a shot at it and hopefully God will give you peace.

Ultimate Reconciliation is the belief that God will never give up on people, that his will of all being saved will not be thwarted. While Annihilationism (AN) is allot better than Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT), it is still ignores many scriptures that say all will be saved. In fact ECT and AN take away from the glory of God. As Paul says in Philippians 2:9-11,

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess (from within) that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

The Greek word here for confess is actually better translated as profess, it is a whole-hearted confession, not one dragged out of the person’s lips. This profession of Lordship to Jesus gives God glory, to say that it will not happen is to deny God the glory due his name.

You are right when you say that people do not have immortality, 1 Timothy 6:14-16 says,** Our Lord Jesus Christ…the King of kings and Lord of lords…alone has immortality.** That’s a bit of a paraphrase, but it is true that only Jesus is immortal. Yet it is promised that “the last enemy to be destroyed is death.” If death is gone then all that is left is life! In the end we will be clothed with immortality (read 1 Corinthians 15 to see what I mean).

I want to quote the passage about the narrow way,

Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide is the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it; how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (YLT)

This is Young’s Literal Translation, take note of the present tense of ‘going & finding’. Jesus was speaking to the generation right then, many were not finding the way to life because they did not believe what Jesus was saying. It is true that the gate is narrow and that is because Jesus is the only way, however this does not mean that many will not one day find (you yourself mentioned the idea that after death there may be hope of repentance). [Edit*** I agree with Jason here, Jesus said in Luke 15, through 3 parables, that he is the one who finds the lost]

To deal with your final point, judgment is not to be seen as destructive, but as corrective. Reading the Old Testament we begin to see a pattern of judgment and redemption (the book of Judges shows that God always answers the call for mercy). Even when he gave his greatest Judgment, the destruction of the Temple and exile of Israel, he brought them back 70 years later. God’s judgment is to show people the error of their ways, not to only hurt them. His judgment is to teach righteousness (Isaiah 26:9), not to cast away forever (Lamentation 3:31-33).

I could say more, but I wish to hear your thoughts on what I’ve written. Its probably inadequate, but I hope that it helps. Here is an article which I recommend you reading: tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

Zeph 3
“Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD,
“for the day when I rise up to seize the prey.
For my decision is to gather nations,
to assemble kingdoms,
to pour out upon them my indignation,
all my burning anger;
for in the fire of my jealousy
all the earth shall be consumed. (final judgement)

9 “For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples (goyim/nations/heathen)
to a pure speech,
that all of them may call upon the name of the LORD
and serve him with one accord.

“Every knee will bow every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of the Father”

Isa 25
6 On this mountain the LORD Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove the disgrace of his people
from all the earth.
The LORD has spoken.
9In that day they will say,

“Surely this is our God;
we trusted in him, and he saved us.
This is the LORD, we trusted in him;
let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation.”

I would like to expound a little further on this beings it was one of the original questions . . .
*Go ye in through the strait gate, because wide is the gate, and broad the way that is leading to the destruction, and many are those going in through it; how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it! (YLT)

This is Young’s Literal Translation, take note of the present tense of ‘going & finding’. Jesus was speaking to the generation right then, many were not finding the way to life because they did not believe what Jesus was saying. It is true that the gate is narrow and that is because Jesus is the only way, however this does not mean that many will not one day find (you yourself mentioned the idea that after death there may be hope of repentance). [Edit*** I agree with Jason here, Jesus said in Luke 15, through 3 parables, that he is the one who finds the lost]*

One of the things I don’t think we take fully under consideration was, the original message that Jesus brought was not to everyone, but only to the Jews first. Personally, I think on a natural level it’s because the Jews are Jesus “family”. But that’s just me. At any rate, I beleive this passage is telling them that the religious Pharisees are those that are taking the broad road and only those taht have the relationship with God “through” Christ are walking the narrow. It’s not about sinners and saints so much as it is about those in relationship and those in religion. And even more literal is the fact that “this” is pertaining to Jews and Gentiles, which many of things in Scripture, preferrably the New Testament are also pertaining to, including Revelation.

I also appreciate Jason’s take on this as he referred to the passage in Luke implicating the same parable. I’ve pulled it up.

Luke 13
23Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
I believe the door closed at the stoning of Stephen, Follow the Scriptures, the emphasis changed that day from Jew to Gentile. It was the introduction to Paul who at that time was holding the coverings of those stoning Stephen. Very symbolic picture of where he was at with God at the time. He didn’t stone them, but he assisted in those that did. Paul’s ministry was not unto the Jew, but to the Gentiles. Interesting thing going on there at the very beginning of chapter 8 of Acts, it’s addressing the fact that they are burying Stephen. In verse 14, it states for the first time, they’d gotten word that Gentiles were showing the same signs as the Jews did in the upper room and Peter was sent with John to affirm it. Chapter 10, where Peter has the vision of the sheet, God affirms to Peter that what they’d heard about Samaria was not only true, but it was orchestrated by God.

26Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. When they murdered Stephen, it says that they were so enraged at his message that they “gnashed their teeth”. Same exact description as this prophetic word. (Acts 7:54) 29And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. This is speaking now about all Gentiles to whom the message was now being sent to. 30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last. The Jews were first, but now are last, the Gentiles were last, but through the grafting in, they are first. This passage has been bent and warped to further someone’s tainted understanding so they could justify inflicting fear with hell to follow anyone who didn’t accept “their” message.

Acts 7:54 . . .passage about the gnashing of teeth . . .
Acts 7:54
When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth

Welcome Cindy! I hope we can help answer some of your questions

Here’s my 2 cents worth:

1. Only Christ was able to pass through the gate, but now He has, He is able to help others through. Also going through the broad gate doesn’t rule out the possibility of going through the narrow gate later on…

2. I think passages like Rom. 5:18 (& the “all reconciled” passages & because the incarnation unites humanity to Christ) show that everyone will be resurrected. I also think the Holy Spirit is at work on all people, although many are resisting/opposing it.

I’m convinced God won’t let anyone commit “suicide”, even slowly, not only because He loves them, but because it would be a defeat of His promises/purposes to be completely victorious (only possible through conversion).

Sorry I can’t remember which book deals with annihilation in-depth…

Thanks, Everyone!

First, I’m sorry that I’m not finding a way to reply directly to a specific reply, so I’ll thank all of you at once. I really appreciate your care and time. You’ve given me some very helpful points of view and I appreciate it.

It’s easy for me to forget that Jesus is talking to Israel and that His comments and stories must be interpreted from that POV. All my life I’ve heard His stories taught in churches and they’re typically taught as being directly told to the modern-day church, comprised mostly of Gentiles. So yes, I do know better, but it seems I constantly forget – really forget – to take that fact into consideration. I figured that first would be easy for someone to clear up, but for me it was proving to be a real poser. Putting it into the perspective of referring to Israel at the time of Jesus causes it to make a lot more sense.

I recently read a friend’s blog talking about the minute size of the remnant and felt so discouraged. I have to agree with him that the numbers of church-goers who are in fact committed to Jesus and not merely to attendance, or to religious knowledge and practice, or to the idea of escaping hell (as eternal conscious torment) has got to be distressingly small. The church seems to be largely worldly, and that is heart-breaking if it means that all those very nice people who believe themselves to be safe are in fact going to be destroyed or forever tormented. I would much prefer to think that they and others not so fortunate as they will be gently shepherded to the truth (and myself as well, for that matter.) But I want the truth, whatever the truth may be, and not some palliative platitude, however comforting.

I did think of the idea that several of you presented (that though the wicked dead do not have eternal life, God keeps them alive even as He does now) later, after I had submitted my questions. I suppose there’s no reason to dispute that. Typically evangelicals I’ve known would argue that people must be relegated to everlasting fire because the human soul is immortal. It was a genuine relief to me to see that the Bible doesn’t teach this. I had assumed that Universalists must also believe this and that as they couldn’t stomach the ECT idea, had proposed as a solution the idea that people would all eventually repent from hell (no more unreasonable than the opposite view and certainly more attractive).

However, Jesus seems to say very plainly that God is able to destroy body and soul in hell and that one should fear Him for that reason.

He doesn’t say that God WOULD do that, but the implication is certainly that the possibility exists. This is one passage that helped persuade me that ECT was an exaggeration necessitated by the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul. Jesus constantly refers to Gehenna, which would imply that things in the fire can be expected to burn up at some point. And of course this leads me to think that at least some of the souls cast into the fire will in fact be destroyed.

I clicked on the link for the Eternal Death/Conditional Mortality article and am headed over there to read that after I post this answer. Maybe that will help clear this up for me.

I did get The Evangelical Universalist yesterday after posting my question. (I can be a bit impatient when I truly want to know something) and have been reading it. (I LOVE my Kindle.) Maybe “MacDonald” will have some answers there to this question. I’m only on the second chapter and so far I find it well-considered, thorough, and well-written. In fact, I was reading it when I decided to pop over here and see whether I had any answers. What a nice surprise!

So anyway, the main point (which it has taken me sooo many words to express) is that I appreciate all of your input and trouble to answer my questions. (And I’m wondering what “Kath” is.) Thanks so much!

Blessings, Cindy

“Kath” is my abbreviated nickname for universalists. Calv = Calvinistic; Arm = Arminianistic; Kath = katholic = universalistic.

I love my Kindle, too.

Do you know how to post pdfs and other files to your Kindle? Because I just finished reading Winchester’s Universal Reconciliation, and found it to be better than TEU (though both are valuable reads).

A good pdf scan of someone’s 1831 edition of the book can be found here at hdl.handle.net/2027/hvd.32044054746839

You should be able to download it for free and then email it to your Kindle. (There are instructions at Amazon how to do this. I recommend reading such texts landscaped though, as the Kindle will automatically try to fit every pdf page to the page width.)

I know it’s possible to send PDFs to the Kindle, but I haven’t tried yet to figure out how to do it. Perhaps this is the occasion. I’m still reading PDFs on my computer or printing them off, and it’s really not as nice as reading on the Kindle. It’s amazing how spoiled I am! All this great information at my fingertips and I complain if it’s not convenient enough.

Thanks so much for the link! The church is coming over here tomorrow, so maybe I’ll “make” one of our techie guys help me with e-mailing to Kindle if I can’t figure it out.

It looks like you have to be someone special to be allowed to download PDFs from this site, Jason. Am I missing something?

Yeah, I can’t figure out how to download it either (as I’m not a member of any of those universities)

Hi Cindy,

Unfortunately it looks like you do have to be someone special in order to download the pdf from that site. But you can download it from Google here: books.google.com/ebooks?id=qqKeSpd9Ll4C

Sonia

Thanks so much! Got it! Only I think I’ll actually keep this one just for the computer. I read through to the completion of the first dialogue last night, and I think it’ll be easier to be able to look up the references this way. There are a LOT of references. And I was so tired and sleepy I know I’ll have to read the first dialogue at least once more. But I think this will be extremely helpful.

Thanks, Everyone!