Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aionios?

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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:46 pm

davo wrote::shock:
Origen; wrote:"If the plain senses makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

IF ONLY… and yet here you are digging for deeper scenarios within the text of Ezek 28:19 that aren’t there. The phrase <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> eis ton aiōna pretty much carries the meaning of “forever” as per… εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα


What scenarios. I took Ezek.28:19 literally as it is written.

I look at the following quote in terms of, amongst other things, taking the literal meaning of what Scripture says:

""If the plain senses makes good sense, then it is nonsense to look for any other sense."

So what is contrary to that is to alter what God has literally said (e.g. to the age) & change His words into something much different by translating it (e.g. forever) according to man's opinions of theology.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:42 am

Origen; wrote:What scenarios. I took Ezek.28:19 literally as it is written.

I was referring to the connection *you made* about the King of Tyre’s death as somehow pertinent to the judgement of Rev 20:11-15 as being what εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα means. You say you took it literally but actually imposed something other onto it.

Origen; wrote:So what is contrary to that is to alter what God has literally said (e.g. to the age) & change His words into something much different by translating it (e.g. forever) according to man's opinions of theology.

Well, as I understand it… it seems you’re not getting the fact that <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> refers to an inordinate amount of time, albeit with limits, but in human appreciation — a long, long time; hence the sense of totality and thus being rendered “forever” or some equivalent etc, which given contexts might also help define further.

IOW… IF <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> refers to the Judgement of Rev 20:11-15 — as per your position, THEN how do you make sense of this but one among many examples, according to your scenario?

Jn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Forever” above = <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> — you have it referring to the amount of time between death and resurrection (judgement). IF that’s the case then there must be a lot of people walking around still living “forever” UNTIL the Day. Of course that’s ridiculous, BUT IF you demand a literal interpretation ALONG WITH the notion you impose upon <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> then anything goes.

This is why I supplied that link in my previous post hoping you’d see (by all those examples) that what you’re proposing is untenable… but that’s just my opinion.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:24 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:What scenarios. I took Ezek.28:19 literally as it is written.

I was referring to the connection *you made* about the King of Tyre’s death as somehow pertinent to the judgement of Rev 20:11-15 as being what εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα means. You say you took it literally but actually imposed something other onto it.



The point of the reference to Revelation 20:11-15 is the resurrection, not judgement. I could have referred to other resurrection passages like John 5:28-19 & Daniel 12:2. All those passages give additional information to Ezek.28:19, rather than interpret it. If Ezek.28:19 informs us that the King is dead "eis ton aiona" or "to the eon" or "until time indefinite", the resurrection passages give us new & different knowledge re when he will no longer be dead but come back to life, at least as far as his mortal body is concerned. But if you translate "eis ton aiona" in Ezek.28:19, as most versions do, as "forever" or "never", then you have the King dead forever & a contradiction in the Scriptures. Although, from the Traditionalist commentaries i've seen, they generally do not take the verse to refer to the death of the King of Tyre, but the destruction of the city. In which case the rendering "forever" avoids such a contradiction. The same language is used re the destruction of the city of Tyre in the last verse of chapter 27. Some annihilationists, OTOH, argue that the verse refers to Satan, proves his annihilation & proves that his torment in Rev.20:10 is not forever and ever (literally, into the ages of the ages). That could also be an argument that "ages of the ages" is finite in duration.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:09 pm

davo wrote:
Well, as I understand it… it seems you’re not getting the fact that <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> refers to an inordinate amount of time, albeit with limits, but in human appreciation — a long, long time; hence the sense of totality and thus being rendered “forever” or some equivalent etc, which given contexts might also help define further.

IOW… IF <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> refers to the Judgement of Rev 20:11-15 — as per your position, THEN how do you make sense of this but one among many examples, according to your scenario?

Jn 6:58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

Forever” above = <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> — you have it referring to the amount of time between death and resurrection (judgement). IF that’s the case then there must be a lot of people walking around still living “forever” UNTIL the Day. Of course that’s ridiculous, BUT IF you demand a literal interpretation ALONG WITH the notion you impose upon <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> then anything goes.

This is why I supplied that link in my previous post hoping you’d see (by all those examples) that what you’re proposing is untenable… but that’s just my opinion.


I would not say that the phrase "eis ton aiona" refers to the judgement of Revelation 20, but that it refers to the aion (i.e. eon) that is in view in each particular context, whether a past eon, the present eon, or one of the future eons or a part of an eon (duration of an unspecified or indefinite length, usually an era or long epoch, in the Scriptures). I can't recall any context where the phrase must mean "forever", although it is concievabe it might be best interpreted that way sometimes, even though that is not the literal meaning & IMO misleading as a translation.

58 This is the Bread which descends out of heaven. Not according as the fathers ate and died; he who is masticating this Bread shall be living for the eon. (CLV)
58 this is the bread that came down out of the heaven; not as your fathers did eat the manna, and died; he who is eating this bread shall live—to the age. (YLT)
58 This is the bread, that from the heaven having come down; not as ate the fathers of you, and died; he eating this the bread, shall live into the age. (Diaglott)

Christians who have died did not live "forever" in the mortal flesh. Neither did they live to/into "the eon" of a future Messianic eon (whether temporary or endless) in their mortal body. Though they could be said to live spiritually both now and "into the eon" to come. Alternately, or additionally, we could say when they are resurrected from the dead, they will live "for the eon" of the coming Messianic eon.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:50 pm

Origen; wrote:The point of the reference to Revelation 20:11-15 is the resurrection, not judgement.

Lol, I can’t win… I originally had written “resurrection” but thinking you might nitpick and correct me to “judgement” based on vs. 13. :lol:

Origen; wrote:I could have referred to other resurrection passages like John 5:28-19 & Daniel 12:2. All those passages give additional information to Ezek.28:19, rather than interpret it. If Ezek.28:19 informs us that the King is dead "eis ton aiona" or "to the eon" or "until time indefinite", the resurrection passages give us new & different knowledge re when he will no longer be dead but come back to life, at least as far as his mortal body is concerned.

So this is *my opinion*… I think you’re looking for information that the passage doesn’t offer, require or indicate. The Greek phrase <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> as becomes clear in the NT is variously nuanced and to postulate as you do regarding its application as meaning “…"until time indefinite"—he will no longer be dead but come back to life…” has the text of Ezek 28:19 saying things it is ABSOLUTELY SILENT on. For example…
Jn 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.

ὁ δὲ δοῦλος οὐ μένει ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα: ὁ υἱὸς μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

IF we run with your preferred scenario it makes a complete nonsense of the text, i.e., you have this…
Jn 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house until time indefinite (then resurrection), but a son abides until time indefinite (then resurrection).

As can be seen… the Greek phrase εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα being understood by the English word “forever” or some equivalent, has NOTHING to do with any essence of resurrection, NO, and in context it is NOT even hamstrung by any sort-after literalism, i.e., it make complete sense in its *qualitative* rendering. Now THAT is just ONE example from that link I gave you.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:04 am

davo wrote:So this is *my opinion*… I think you’re looking for information that the passage doesn’t offer, require or indicate. The Greek phrase <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> as becomes clear in the NT is variously nuanced and to postulate as you do regarding its application as meaning “…"until time indefinite"—he will no longer be dead but come back to life…” has the text of Ezek 28:19 saying things it is ABSOLUTELY SILENT on.


All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' "(Ezek.28:19, YLT)
All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon. (CLV)
All that had known thee among the peoples were astounded over thee,— A terror, hast thou become, And art not Unto times age-abiding. (Ro)

The passage reveals the king is dead...to "the eon", to an indefinite time period in the future.

The Hebrew confirms the same, saying AD[5704] OLAM[5769], until eon. Rendering that "until forever" would be rather strange, if not nonsensical.
Last edited by Origen; on Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:53 am

davo wrote:
For example…
Jn 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.

ὁ δὲ δοῦλος οὐ μένει ἐν τῇ οἰκίᾳ εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα: ὁ υἱὸς μένει εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα.

IF we run with your preferred scenario it makes a complete nonsense of the text, i.e., you have this…
Jn 8:35 And a slave does not abide in the house until time indefinite (then resurrection), but a son abides until time indefinite (then resurrection).

As can be seen… the Greek phrase εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα being understood by the English word “forever” or some equivalent, has NOTHING to do with any essence of resurrection, NO, and in context it is NOT even hamstrung by any sort-after literalism, i.e., it make complete sense in its *qualitative* rendering. Now THAT is just ONE example from that link I gave you.


Davo, I prefer the following translations of John 8:35 to the one you have assigned to me:

Jn.8:34 Jesus answered them, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you that everyone who is doing sin, is a slave of sin."
35 Now the slave is not remaining in the house for the eon. The son is remaining for the eon. (CLV)

35 The but slave not abides in the house to the age; the son abides to the age. (Diaglott)

35 and the servant doth not remain in the house—to the age, the son doth remain—to the age; (YLT)

35 into the age (Greek-English Interlinear, "A Conservative Version Interlinear")

35 to the age (Greek-English Interlinear @ http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/8-35.htm)

"But what prospect is there before the slave of sin? Exclusion from the kingdom of the Messiah!" (Meyer's NT Commentary)

The contrast in Jn.8:35 is between the slave of sin and the son. Compare:

1 Cor.6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

Jn.3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Rev.5:10 You have made them into a kingdom, priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.

Rev.20:4b And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev.20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

"Spiritual regeneration, the one imperative condition, apart from which the kingdom cannot be entered...A new birth will fit them for a life on earth during the millennial eon..." (Concordant Commentary on the New Testament, John's Gospel)
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:50 am

Origen; wrote:Davo, I prefer the following translations of John 8:35 to the one you have assigned to me:

Well, I only assigned your terminology and reference with regards to what you were saying εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα means relative to what you were applying to the text of Ezek 28:19 and then claiming that as its defined meaning… I simply questioned the validity of that with said explanation and examples, nothing more and nothing less. What you’ve posted since is not really germane to that discussion.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby sven » Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:30 am

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:So this is *my opinion*… I think you’re looking for information that the passage doesn’t offer, require or indicate. The Greek phrase <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> as becomes clear in the NT is variously nuanced and to postulate as you do regarding its application as meaning “…"until time indefinite"—he will no longer be dead but come back to life…” has the text of Ezek 28:19 saying things it is ABSOLUTELY SILENT on.


All knowing thee among the peoples Have been astonished at thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age.' "(Ezek.28:19, YLT)
All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon. (CLV)
All that had known thee among the peoples were astounded over thee,— A terror, hast thou become, And art not Unto times age-abiding. (Ro)

The passage reveals the king is dead...to "the eon", to an indefinite time period in the future. This implies his resurrection.

The Hebrew confirms the same, saying AD[5704] OLAM[5769], until eon. Rendering that "until forever" would be rather strange, if not nonsensical.


Depends on the language, in German we have "bis in (alle) Ewigkeit" which literally means "till in (all) eternity" which literally means forever, on the other hand we use our word for eternity in a looser sense as English speakers, so the idea of "eternity" is different within languages and cultures and often ambiguous.

The Apostolic interlinear bible is a good source to search words, you can search within the pdf-file:

http://www.apostolicbible.com/text.htm
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:56 pm

sven wrote:
The Apostolic interlinear bible is a good source to search words, you can search within the pdf-file:

http://www.apostolicbible.com/text.htm


I've been looking for something like that. Also studying the phrase "the ages of the ages" in the book of Revelation where your research on various forums has been helpful, such as the following:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christia ... -ages.html
http://www.city-data.com/forum/christia ... ong-9.html
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:37 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Davo, I prefer the following translations of John 8:35 to the one you have assigned to me:

Well, I only assigned your terminology and reference with regards to what you were saying εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα means relative to what you were applying to the text of Ezek 28:19 and then claiming that as its defined meaning… I simply questioned the validity of that with said explanation and examples, nothing more and nothing less. What you’ve posted since is not really germane to that discussion.


Perhaps you posted before reading my comment of "Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:09 pm" PST that states:

"I would not say that the phrase "eis ton aiona" refers to the judgement of Revelation 20, but that it refers to the aion (i.e. eon) that is in view
in each particular context, whether a past eon, the present eon, or one of the future eons or a part of an eon (duration of an unspecified or indefinite length, usually an era or long epoch, in the Scriptures). I can't recall any context where the phrase must mean "forever", although it is conceivable it might be best interpreted that way sometimes, even though that is not the literal meaning & IMO misleading as a translation."

You said:

"As can be seen… the Greek phrase εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα being understood by the English word “forever” or some equivalent, has NOTHING to do with any essence of resurrection, NO, and in context it is NOT even hamstrung by any sort-after literalism, i.e., it make complete sense in its *qualitative* rendering. Now THAT is just ONE example from that link I gave you."

What is a "qualitative rendering" of eis ton aiona? Do you think this phrase should usually be translated "forever"?
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:54 pm

Origen; wrote:Perhaps you posted before reading my comment of "Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:09 pm" PST that states:

"I would not say that the phrase "eis ton aiona" refers to the judgement of Revelation 20,…

:? But that’s not what you said back here…
Origen; wrote:I take the phrase "to the eon" to describe how long he will be dead, i.e. until the eon. Evidently until the judgement spoken of in Rev.20:11-15.

This is where following some of your argument gets difficult, i.e., it shifts. :shock:

Origen; wrote:I can't recall any context where the phrase must mean "forever", although it is conceivable it might be best interpreted that way sometimes, even though that is not the literal meaning & IMO misleading as a translation."

Would you perhaps reconsider some of the evidence :?:

Origen; wrote:What is a "qualitative rendering" of eis ton aiona? Do you think this phrase should usually be translated "forever"?

It’s like I’ve mentioned earlier… when a boyfriend tells his girlfriend “I love you forever” or “our love is eternal” we know qualitatively what is meant without getting all strung-up on the literality of it all. The ancient’s likewise knew how to speak in kind, even though in its strict literal rendering it appears, as our mate qaz would say, “completely clunky”. There are way too many examples of this qualitative use, but here’s one…
Hab 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations. And the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills bowed. His ways are everlasting.

These are *qualitative* phrases… “everlasting mountains” and “perpetual hills” — quite literally there are no such things; but this is *poetic license*. Not only this but to make the point… BOTH “perpetual” and the last “everlasting” in this verse are one and the same Hebrew word <עוֹלָ֑ם> olam.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:58 am

davo wrote: :? But that’s not what you said back here…

This is where following some of your argument gets difficult, i.e., it shifts. :shock:


The reference re the Revelation passage had nothing to do with the inherent meaning of "eis ton aiona", but rather with the king of Tyre being dead in the specific context of the Ezekiel verse under consideration. It seems you assumed otherwise & applied your erroneous assumption to other passages where the phrase occurs.

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:I can't recall any context where the phrase must mean "forever", although it is conceivable it might be best interpreted that way sometimes, even though that is not the literal meaning & IMO misleading as a translation."

Would you perhaps reconsider some of the evidence :?:


Your so-called "evidence" list includes NT verses with the phrase "eis ton aiona". It is merely a list of translations that provide no "evidence", points, explanations, proofs or arguments in favor of any of the renderings. I've already responded to two of the lists' verses that you posted here in this thread, as well as one OT verse, & expect that my remarks re a number of the rest would be much the same.

The list shows how a Greek-English Interlinear & some versions render the Greek phrase. In general i'd say the Interlinear is more literal & accurate and the versions are misleading & deceptive. For example, re Mk.3:29, even the Interlinear is deceptive, saying "never has forgiveness to the eternity", whereas everywhere else it renders "eis ton aiona" as to/for the age. Why the inconsistency when it comes to Mark 3:29? Theological bias? A proper literal translation would be into/"to the eon" (or age):

Young's Literal Translation
but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (Mk.3:29)
yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin- (CLV)
But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding,—but is guilty of an age-abiding sin: (Ro)
who but ever may speak evil to the spirit the holy, not has forgiveness to the age, but liable is of age-lasting judgment (Diaglott)
into the age (Greek-English Interlinear, "A Conservative Version Interlinear", http://studybible.info/ACVI/Mark%203)
into the eon (Greek-English Interlinear @ http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... f/mar3.pdf

There are many passages of Scripture that speak of multiple future eons (i.e. ages). It is a theological assumption that the age in Mk.3:29 is eternal. ECT dogma is what is behind deceptive anti universalist ECT mis-translations of the phrase "eis ton aiona" in Mk.3:29 by pro ECT versions (e.g. KJV) of the Scriptures.


davo wrote:It’s like I’ve mentioned earlier… when a boyfriend tells his girlfriend “I love you forever” or “our love is eternal” we know qualitatively what is meant without getting all strung-up on the literality of it all. The ancient’s likewise knew how to speak in kind, even though in its strict literal rendering it appears, as our mate qaz would say, “completely clunky”.


I don't see what's qualitative about the word "forever" there. Normally the word "forever" speaks of endless time: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/forever. Hence quantity of time, not quality of time. Your use of the English word "forever" in your example is what is called hyperbolic usage, or non literal. Even there the word speaks of a quantity, not quality, of time.

Also the modern English word "forever" does not define the ancient Greek phrase "eis ton aiona". To understand the meaning of ancient Greek words one must study ancient Greek words in their ancient context, not modern English words which have nothing whatsoever to do with ancient Greek words and did not even exist in the ancient world of ancient Koine NT Greek.

davo wrote:The ancient’s likewise knew how to speak in kind, even though in its strict literal rendering it appears, as our mate qaz would say, “completely clunky


You know this how? By travelling back in a time machine to 30 AD & speaking to the ancient Greeks in the native tongue? Or by being brainwashed by modern English language culture, including a millennium of ECT traditions, plus decades of the influence of ECT versions & propaganda so that you read the Bible through the spectacles of ECT lenses re phrases like "eis ton aiona" & words like "olam", "aion" & "aionios"?

davo wrote:There are way too many examples of this qualitative use, but here’s one…
Hab 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations. And the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills bowed. His ways are everlasting.

These are *qualitative* phrases… “everlasting mountains” and “perpetual hills” — quite literally there are no such things; but this is *poetic license*. Not only this but to make the point… BOTH “perpetual” and the last “everlasting” in this verse are one and the same Hebrew word <עוֹלָ֑ם> olam.


The word OLAM is twice deceptively rendered "everlasting" there in that pro ECT [mis]translation. The Hebrew word OLAM generally corresponds to the Greek words AION & AIONION meaning -to put it briefly - "eon" (i.e. age) or "eonian". Paidon's rendering of aionion as "lasting" is much better than "everlasting". Compare:

6 He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.(YLT)
6 He hath stood and measured the earth, he hath looked, and caused nations to tremble, and, scattered as dust, are the perpetual mountains, and, sunk, are the age-abiding hills,—Forthgoings age-abiding, are his. (Ro)
6 He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian. (CLV)
6 He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient hills do bow; His goings are as of old. (JPS)
6 His goings were as of old. (ASV)
6 his goings were as of old. (ERV)

http://biblehub.com/habakkuk/3-6.htm
http://studybible.info/CLV/Habakkuk%203
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:20 pm

Origen; wrote:In general i'd say the Interlinear is more literal & accurate and the versions are misleading & deceptive. For example, re Mk.3:29, even the Interlinear is deceptive, saying "never has forgiveness to the eternity",…

Yet more oddities in your argumentive logic… within the mere blink of an eye your favoured ‘Interlinear’ goes from “more literal & accurate” to “the Interlinear is deceptive” — go figure

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:It’s like I’ve mentioned earlier… when a boyfriend tells his girlfriend “I love you forever” or “our love is eternal” we know qualitatively what is meant without getting all strung-up on the literality of it all. The ancient’s likewise knew how to speak in kind, even though in its strict literal rendering it appears, as our mate qaz would say, “completely clunky”.

Hence quantity of time, not quality of time. Your use of the English word "forever" in your example is what is called hyperbolic usage, or non literal.

Still you don’t get it… if one partner says to another “my love for you is eternal” there is NO skerrick of literalistic quantitative intent, NO… what is being reflected by that phrase is the depth and strength of feeling owned by one for and towards the other, i.e., this is the QUALITY of their love. Surely that’s not too hard to grasp?

Qualitative: Describes a statement, or analysis, which gives the composition of an item, not the amounts present.

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:The ancient’s likewise knew how to speak in kind, even though in its strict literal rendering it appears, as our mate qaz would say, “completely clunky


You know this how? By travelling back in a time machine to 30 AD & speaking to the ancient Greeks in the native tongue? Or by being brainwashed by modern English language culture, including a millennium of ECT traditions, plus decades of the influence of ECT versions & propaganda so that you read the Bible through the spectacles of ECT lenses re phrases like "eis ton aiona" & words like "olam", "aion" & "aionios"?

:lol: Ok so your desperation is showing. It’s the mere FACT that you are unable to conceive the *qualitative* aspects relative to the likes of “forever” or “eternal” that leads to such churlish responses.

FACT… I absolutely have NO place for the likes of ECT. Your problem however is you can’t conceive of any other ECT opposing rational that doesn’t fall in line with your own rigid dogmatism… being aptly demonstrated by your diatribe above.

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:There are way too many examples of this qualitative use, but here’s one…
Hab 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations. And the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills bowed. His ways are everlasting.

These are *qualitative* phrases… “everlasting mountains” and “perpetual hills” — quite literally there are no such things; but this is *poetic license*. Not only this but to make the point… BOTH “perpetual” and the last “everlasting” in this verse are one and the same Hebrew word <עוֹלָ֑ם> olam.


The word OLAM is twice deceptively rendered "everlasting" there in that pro ECT [mis]translation.

Amazing :roll:

I spelt it out quite PLAINLY for you and yep in you eager-tism you read right past the bleeding obvious. The word <עוֹלָ֑ם> olam rendered *perpetual* AND THE LAST *eternal* referencing GOD — you know, the one you say is “deceptively rendered” and a “[mis]translation” — well they are indeed ONE AND THE SAME WORD in the Hebrew text, so the ill-informed slur you attribute to “the perpetual hills” you are attributing likewise to the “His ways are everlasting.” This is not a good standard you are setting if you hope to convince anyone of your position, IMO.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby JamesAH81072 » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:07 pm

Davo or Origen. Are any of you uni's?
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:25 pm

JamesAH81072 wrote:Davo or Origen. Are any of you uni's?

As an inclusive prêterist aka a pantelist I’m in the paddock next door, i.e., I agree that humanity has been reconciled to God… I just don’t go along with certain assumed rationales inherent within EU to get there.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:04 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:In general i'd say the Interlinear is more literal & accurate and the versions are misleading & deceptive. For example, re Mk.3:29, even the Interlinear is deceptive, saying "never has forgiveness to the eternity",…

Yet more oddities in your argumentive logic… within the mere blink of an eye your favoured ‘Interlinear’ goes from “more literal & accurate” to “the Interlinear is deceptive” — go figure



The words "In general" allow for exceptions. And the words "For example" are followed by giving one of those exceptions. The words "For example" also refer back to the sentence that you left out which occurs immediately before those you quoted: "The list shows how a Greek-English Interlinear & some versions render the Greek phrase." And then "...For example".

davo wrote:Still you don’t get it… if one partner says to another “my love for you is eternal” there is NO skerrick of literalistic quantitative intent, NO… what is being reflected by that phrase is the depth and strength of feeling owned by one for and towards the other, i.e., this is the QUALITY of their love. Surely that’s not too hard to grasp?

Qualitative: Describes a statement, or analysis, which gives the composition of an item, not the amounts present.


The first definition from Webster's dictionary:

"eternal - having infinite duration", i.e. endless time, clearly quantitive, not qualitative

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eternal

Not one of Webster's definitions has to do with anything qualititive. Only quantities of time.

davo wrote::lol: Ok so your desperation is showing. It’s the mere FACT that you are unable to conceive the *qualitative* aspects relative to the likes of “forever” or “eternal” that leads to such churlish responses.


I have seen the word "quality" associated with the Greek word aionion, especially in regards to John 17:3, but not regarding the passages you have been attributing it to with the phrase "eis ton aiona". I can see it maybe applying in John 17:3, but not in the contexts you claim it for. Are there any articles, dictionaries, scholars, commentaries, church fathers or lexicons you can offer in support of your viewpoint, that will help me to "get it"?

davo wrote:FACT… I absolutely have NO place for the likes of ECT. Your problem however is you can’t conceive of any other ECT opposing rational that doesn’t fall in line with your own rigid dogmatism… being aptly demonstrated by your diatribe above.


I was aware that you are not an ECT advocate. Although your comments & versions quoted, aside from the qualitative stuff, reminded me of their viewpoints.

davo wrote:I spelt it out quite PLAINLY for you and yep in you eager-tism you read right past the bleeding obvious.


Oops, you are correct. My mistake.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:13 pm

davo wrote:
JamesAH81072 wrote:Davo or Origen. Are any of you uni's?

As an inclusive prêterist aka a pantelist I’m in the paddock next door, i.e., I agree that humanity has been reconciled to God… I just don’t go along with certain assumed rationales inherent within EU to get there.


What are the "certain assumed rationales inherent within EU" you don't go along with?

What is the "paddock next door"?

Is "paddock" an English language word or Australian? :lol:

Even some ECTers believe "that humanity has been reconciled to God". How do you understand that reconciliation?

JamesAH81072 wrote:Davo or Origen. Are any of you uni's?


I am. I believe the Bible, correctly translated & interpreted, teaches eventual universalism as the final destiny of all human beings since Adam,
after all have been delivered from "hell" & saved through Jesus Christ & Him crucified.

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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:32 pm

First this with regards to “eternal”…
Origen; wrote:The first definition from Webster's dictionary:

"eternal - having infinite duration", i.e. endless time, clearly quantitive, not qualitative

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eternal

Not one of Webster's definitions has to do with anything qualititive. Only quantities of time.

Then immediately this…
Origen; wrote:I have seen the word "quality" associated with the Greek word aionion, especially in regards to John 17:3, but not regarding the passages you have been attributing it to with the phrase "eis ton aiona". I can see it maybe applying in John 17:3, but not in the contexts you claim it for.

You will have to excuse me if my brain gets a little befuddled with some of what you say. :?

    Example: 1) you rule out emphatically ANY possibility that “eternal” can have any *qualitative* application/meaning,
    BUT THEN 2) immediately agree such CAN be the case as per the likes of Jn 17:3 (which I might add I would agree).
So which is it… are you happy to just let Webster's English Dictionary define your case for the biblical Greek text, or not; and on what justifiable basis do you make this seemingly arbitrary switch?
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:22 pm

Origen; wrote:Are there any articles, dictionaries, scholars, commentaries, church fathers or lexicons you can offer in support of your viewpoint, that will help me to "get it"?

I’ve already pointed you in that direction but you dismissed this with disgust and disdain. That the likes of <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> can be used as a figure of speech OTHER THAN its strict literal rendering has you up in arms declaring all manner of deception etc.

Even the first examples in that link I gave you shows this…
Mt 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.

Mt 21:19 καὶ ἰδὼν συκῆν μίαν ἐπὶ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἦλθεν ἐπ' αὐτήν, καὶ οὐδὲν εὗρεν ἐν αὐτῇ εἰ μὴ φύλλα μόνον, καὶ λέγει αὐτῇ, Μηκέτι ἐκ σοῦ καρπὸς γένηται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. καὶ ἐξηράνθη παραχρῆμα ἡ συκῆ.

So it’s your choice… to which particular “until-the-age” would you have this immediately withered fig tree assigned so as to sprout fruit again? — even though Jesus has just declared the total opposite. Can you not see how Jesus’ words are a figure of speech… cursing that which was unproductive — a prophetic word at that time against Israel.

It was a play on words… so quite literally <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> could have reference to the DoJ in AD70 (my preference) BUT the fact that “the fig tree immediately withered away” should tell you there is NO resurrection (i.e., the connection you’ve strained to make with regards to the King of Tyre and resurrection) in terms of this prophetic symbol involved; it all happened there and then. It’s what I originally said… you are trying to find in that text (Ezek 28:19) more than is there with regards to <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα>.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:38 am

davo wrote:
You will have to excuse me if my brain gets a little befuddled with some of what you say. :?

    Example: 1) you rule out emphatically ANY possibility that “eternal” can have any *qualitative* application/meaning,
    BUT THEN 2) immediately agree such CAN be the case as per the likes of Jn 17:3 (which I might add I would agree).
So which is it… are you happy to just let Webster's English Dictionary define your case for the biblical Greek text, or not; and on what justifiable basis do you make this seemingly arbitrary switch?


1. I didn't rule out anything. I simply referred you to Webster's dictionary definition of "eternal".

2. I said "I can see it maybe applying in John 17:3". That means maybe it applies, or maybe it doesn't. I'll look into it.

Webster's dictionary defines English words, not Greek words.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby sven » Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:09 am

I think the discussion about aion/aionios is too sophisticated, as a translation for aionios I would suggest "perpetual", for me as a non-native English speaker the term is ambiguous and does not convey the idea of endlessness or timelessness (though not exclude), is this correct? Otherwise I would suggest "lasting", I do not like the translation age-lasting.

aion/aionios most likely means what olam means, which is a hidden time of whatever length, the translation "for an/the age" is no proper English in the terms that it has no reference to an actual age, though in Latin "in saeculum" would literally exactly mean that but can mean whatever duration too (though not everlasting). Eis ton aiona I would translate as "in perpetuity" as long as this is ambiguous enough not to necessarily mean forever? Otherwise I would suggest "continously". I think both English and German have limitations to properly translate the Latin and Greek words without conveying false connotations, since the original words appear to be ambiguous, the translation should be equally ambiguous.

Have a look how Rashi defines olam here in Exodus 21:5.6

and he shall serve him forever: Heb. לְעֹלָם, until the Jubilee year [the fiftieth year of the cycle]. Or perhaps it means literally forever, as its apparent meaning? Therefore, the Torah states [in reference to the Jubilee year]: “and each man to his family you shall return” (Lev. 25:10). [This] informs [us] that fifty years are called עֹלָם. But [this does] not [mean] that he must serve him [his master] the entire fifty years, but he must serve him until the Jubilee year, regardless of whether it is near or far off. — [From Mechilta, Kid. 15a]

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true

Scholars should study more the meanings of olam and also Hebrew phrases like "generations of generations".
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:09 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Are there any articles, dictionaries, scholars, commentaries, church fathers or lexicons you can offer in support of your viewpoint, that will help me to "get it"?

I’ve already pointed you in that direction but you dismissed this with disgust and disdain. That the likes of <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> can be used as a figure of speech OTHER THAN its strict literal rendering has you up in arms declaring all manner of deception etc.


I object to changing the words of God into the words of man based on ECT theology & then calling that a faithful translation of the original Scriptures. Instead of calling it KJV it should be called the "KJ ECT commentary-opinion of the dark ages". And it's many ECT zombie-cloned paraphrases, erroneously called versions, should be named likewise.



davo wrote:Even the first examples in that link I gave you shows this…
Mt 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.

Mt 21:19 καὶ ἰδὼν συκῆν μίαν ἐπὶ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἦλθεν ἐπ' αὐτήν, καὶ οὐδὲν εὗρεν ἐν αὐτῇ εἰ μὴ φύλλα μόνον, καὶ λέγει αὐτῇ, Μηκέτι ἐκ σοῦ καρπὸς γένηται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. καὶ ἐξηράνθη παραχρῆμα ἡ συκῆ.

So it’s your choice… to which particular “until-the-age” would you have this immediately withered fig tree assigned so as to sprout fruit again? — even though Jesus has just declared the total opposite. Can you not see how Jesus’ words are a figure of speech… cursing that which was unproductive — a prophetic word at that time against Israel.


There's nothing in the following more honest, faithful and literal translations either affirming, or denying, the tree would sprout fruit again:

And, perceiving one fig tree on the roadside, He came to it and found nothing on it except leaves only. And He is saying to it, "No longer, by any means, may fruit be coming of you for the eon. And withered instantly is the fig tree." (Mt.21:19, CLV)

`No more from thee may fruit be—to the age;' (YLT)

"into the age" (Greek-English Interlinear, "A Conservative Version Interlinear" @ http://studybible.info/ACVI/Matthew%2021)

How is it that Jesus' words are a "figure of speech"? There was a literal fig tree that He literally came to, literally cursed & it literally withered up. Literally instantly. Even if you want to apply the fig tree to Israel, as some commentators do, how does that effect the phrase "eis ton aiona" or make it a figure of speech, or something qualitative instead of quantitative, or justify changing the literal inspired word "eon" & rendering it idiomatically as "ever"? Is Israel to be cursed for ever? Or until Jesus saves His people Israel from their sins (Mt.1:21 + 2:6), even "all Israel" (Rom.11:26)? So far your examples of "eis ton aiona" have shown that it should not be altered into "for ever" but left literally as God gave it.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:06 am

IMO, sven, the words perpetual, lasting & continuous would be a great improvement upon the usual translations of olam & aion/ios as everlasting & forever. There are versions that sometimes use the words you suggested. The following url, for example, shows in what verses the word "perpetual" occurs in various Bibles as a translation of olam and aionios:

"Perpetual is usually the translation of `olam, properly, "a wrapping up" or "hiding," used often of time indefinitely long, and of eternity when applied to God; hence, we have, "for perpetual generations" (Genesis 9:12); "the priesthood by a perpetual statute" (Exodus 29:9; compare Exodus 31:16 Leviticus 3:17; Leviticus 24:9, etc.); "placed the sand for the bound of the sea, by a perpetual decree, that it cannot pass it" (Jeremiah 5:22, the Revised Version margin "an everlasting ordinance which it cannot pass"); "sleep a perpetual sleep" (Jeremiah 51:39, 57); "Moab shall be.... a perpetual desolation" (Zechariah 2:9), etc."

"...Perpetual is frequent in the Apocrypha, most often as the translation of aionios and kindred words, e.g. Judith 13:20, "a perpetual praise"; The Wisdom of Solomon 10:14, "perpetual glory," the Revised Version (British and American) "eternal"; Ecclesiasticus 11:33, "a perpetual blot," the Revised Version (British and American) "blame for ever"; 1 Maccabees 6:44, "a perpetual name," the Revised Version (British and American) "everlasting"..."

http://biblehub.com/topical/p/perpetual.htm
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby JamesAH81072 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:01 am

And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

LXX- καί δίδωμι αὐτός ἐξουσία καί πᾶς ὁ ἔθνος ὁ γῆ κατά γένος καί πᾶς δόξα αὐτός λατρεύω καί ὁ ἐξουσία αὐτός ἐξουσία αἰώνιος ὅστις οὐ μή αἴρω καί ὁ βασιλεία αὐτός ὅστις οὐ μή φθείρω

αἰώνιος = noun

Trying to figure this one out!
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:22 pm

Figure out? At Dan.7:14 aionios is an adjective, not a noun.

to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined.

http://studybible.info/CLV/Daniel%207
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby JamesAH81072 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:42 pm

Origen; wrote:Figure out? At Dan.7:14 aionios is an adjective, not a noun.

to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined.

http://studybible.info/CLV/Daniel%207


Well is the eonian jurisdiction temporal?
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:44 pm

JamesAH81072 wrote:
Origen; wrote:Figure out? At Dan.7:14 aionios is an adjective, not a noun.

to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined.

http://studybible.info/CLV/Daniel%207


Well is the eonian jurisdiction temporal?



That's one interpretation. Based on 1 Cor.15:25, & the view that Christ's reign ends, as all rule ends (v.24).
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby JamesAH81072 » Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:56 pm

Origen; wrote:
JamesAH81072 wrote:
Origen; wrote:Figure out? At Dan.7:14 aionios is an adjective, not a noun.

to Him is granted jurisdiction and esteem and a kingdom, and all the peoples and leagues and language-groups shall serve Him; His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction, will not pass away, and His kingdom shall not be confined.

http://studybible.info/CLV/Daniel%207


Well is the eonian jurisdiction temporal?



That's one interpretation. Based on 1 Cor.15:25, & the view that Christ's reign ends, as all rule ends (v.24).


Here is where I'm trying to figure out:

His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction-temporal

will not pass away-permanent/never ending

That doesn't make sense to me.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Fri Dec 15, 2017 11:57 pm

JamesAH81072 wrote:
Origen; wrote:
JamesAH81072 wrote:
Well is the eonian jurisdiction temporal?



That's one interpretation. Based on 1 Cor.15:25, & the view that Christ's reign ends, as all rule ends (v.24).


Here is where I'm trying to figure out:

His jurisdiction, as an eonian jurisdiction-temporal

will not pass away-permanent/never ending

That doesn't make sense to me.


James, I think this is how some have interpreted it:

As an - eonian jurisdiction (or kingdom) - it will not pass away. So while it continues through the millennium age eon and the following eon of the 2nd death, until death is abolished & God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:25-28), it will not pass away. Because Christ lives through all that time, and no one will have the power to take the rule or kingdom away from Him. Instead, He voluntarily hands the kingdom over to the Father (v.24-28) at the end of the eonian times (2 Tim.1:9) when the eons end (1 Cor.10:11; Heb.9:26). If the eonian times end, then an eonian kingdom cannot be never ending, although the kingdom itself can continue after the eonian times end. Just as a person of the 1800's did not die when the 1800's ended if he lived into the 1900's, but his life of the 1800's has ended. Or just as your teenage years ended, but you did not, but continued into your adult years. As a teenage person you did not pass away, that is, during your teens, but your teenage years did [thank God] end. Does that make any sense? Maybe i'll email a brilliant scholar acquaintance familiar with this stuff & see what he says.

God's purpose of the eons is to head up all in Christ (Eph.1:9-10; 3:11). Some would view that as being the time when the eons end. When God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

If sometime you feel like reading some more related to eons ending, i'd suggest points 7-9 in this post:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23#p111483


Here's another, somewhat related, thought:

God as "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) has nothing to do with authority, but God "in" every being who ever lived. "To say that "all in all" signifies "the manifestation of God's supremacy"...is very far indeed from the truth...When we say "Christ is my all," what do we mean? That He is our Lord? Yes, and our Saviour and Friend and our Lover, our Wisdom and our Righteousness, and our Holiness--He is everything to us!...And that is just what God wishes to be and what He will be!...Will He be this only in some? No! He will be All in all!...we have said that when the last enemy [death] is abolished, then the Son abdicates and God becomes All in all. If there were still enmity we might imagine God being over all, but with all enmity gone, it is easy to see how He can become All in all...The "kingdom" is given up to the Father, after all sovereignty and authority and power have been abrogated. What kind of a "supremacy" will God "fully manifest" which has no power, no authority, no sovereignty? Thank God, all these elements, which characterized government during the eons, will be utterly unnecessary when the Son of God is finished with His "mediatorial" work. Instead of God's supremacy being fully manifested at that time, it will be entirely absent, and God, as Father, will guide His family by the sweet constraint of love." (AE Knoch).

Another interpretation of Dan.7:14 is that Christ's aionios kingdom is endless. And that sometimes aionios refers to infinite duration and other times to finite duration, depending on the context.

Paidon translates aionios as "lasting". In some contexts it may be intepretaed as ever-lasting, while in others it is long-lasting or short-lasting. But in all cases lasting, i.e. for a duration of time.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Eusebius » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:33 am

All eonian is is an adjective. This adjective is just derived from its noun form "eon". The Bible says all the eons end. Eonian is that which pertains to the eons. Therefore, that which is eonian is pertaining to a set amount of time.

Examples of adjectives related to their nouns are:

America = noun
American = adjective
Bush was the American president. His presidency pertained to America.

Heaven = noun
Heavenly = adjective
The heavenly angel visited Mary. The angel's realm pertains to heaven.

Eon = noun
Eonian = adjective
These shall go away into eonian chastening, yet the just into eonian life. Both the chastening and the life pertain to the eons.

Let's take one example of eonian. In Romans 16:26 it is stated that "God is the eonian God." Now some scholars state that a noun (God) can modify the adjective (eonian) and since God is eternal, in this verse eonian means eternal. But that is reversing the laws of grammar where the adjective modifies the noun.
Look in any Greek grammar instruction book and you will note that for "adjective" it is stated "the adjective modifies the noun."

So what is Romans 16:26 telling us if eonian does not mean eternal? It is telling is that God is the God pertaining to the eons. He is over the eons, directing each eon to the goal He has in mind. He is subjecting mankind to the goal of each eon.

"Eonian jurisdiction" is likewise a jurisdiction pertaining to the eons. Once the eons have run their course, Christ quits reigning for 1 Corinthians 15:25 informs us "[Christ] reigns UNTIL . . . ." If I am at a job and I work until I retire, when I reach retirement age, I quit working. Christ reigns UNTIL certain things come to pass. Then He subjects Himself to God and God then becomes All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28).

It's not that hard to understand. But one must throw off the shackles of poor teachings of well meaning theologians in order to wrap one's mind around these things.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:42 pm

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Are there any articles, dictionaries, scholars, commentaries, church fathers or lexicons you can offer in support of your viewpoint, that will help me to "get it"?

I’ve already pointed you in that direction but you dismissed this with disgust and disdain. That the likes of <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> can be used as a figure of speech OTHER THAN its strict literal rendering has you up in arms declaring all manner of deception etc.


I object to changing the words of God into the words of man based on ECT theology & then calling that a faithful translation of the original Scriptures.

Making a silly baseless charge is no way to answer let alone challenge an opposing view… what you’ve said above simply isn’t true.

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:Even the first examples in that link I gave you shows this…
Mt 21:19 And seeing a fig tree by the road, He came to it and found nothing on it but leaves, and said to it, “Let no fruit grow on you ever again.” Immediately the fig tree withered away.

Mt 21:19 καὶ ἰδὼν συκῆν μίαν ἐπὶ τῆς ὁδοῦ ἦλθεν ἐπ' αὐτήν, καὶ οὐδὲν εὗρεν ἐν αὐτῇ εἰ μὴ φύλλα μόνον, καὶ λέγει αὐτῇ, Μηκέτι ἐκ σοῦ καρπὸς γένηται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα. καὶ ἐξηράνθη παραχρῆμα ἡ συκῆ.

So it’s your choice… to which particular “until-the-age” would you have this immediately withered fig tree assigned so as to sprout fruit again? — even though Jesus has just declared the total opposite. Can you not see how Jesus’ words are a figure of speech… cursing that which was unproductive — a prophetic word at that time against Israel.


There's nothing in the following more honest, faithful and literal translations either affirming, or denying, the tree would sprout fruit again: …

How is it that Jesus' words are a "figure of speech"? There was a literal fig tree that He literally came to, literally cursed & it literally withered up. Literally instantly. Even if you want to apply the fig tree to Israel, as some commentators do,…

:shock:some commentators”!? JESUS was using the fig tree as a metaphor, i.e., a figure of speech, against Israel — THAT you can’t see this very basic of truths doesn’t alter this facts one iota — Jesus was applying this useless tree to unproductive Israel. Unless of course you simply believe this was a typical random act of Jesus just to safe some farmer some time; go figure? :shock:

Origen; wrote:…how does that effect the phrase "eis ton aiona" or make it a figure of speech, or something qualitative instead of quantitative, or justify changing the literal inspired word "eon" & rendering it idiomatically as "ever"?

BECAUSE… that’s what “eis ton aiona” means, period! Context determines translation, pure and simple. Your literal-ONLY approach makes a total mockery of common sense… do you suppose there was a HUGE rock, i.e., Jesus actually literally following Israel around the desert 40yrs, as per?? 1Cor 10:4 :roll:

Origen; wrote:Is Israel to be cursed for ever? Or until Jesus saves His people Israel from their sins (Mt.1:21 + 2:6), even "all Israel" (Rom.11:26)?

THAT’S what DID happen, not will happen. Jesus redeemed his people ALREADY and in consequence the world of man HAS BEEN reconciled.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:15 am

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Is Israel to be cursed for ever? Or until Jesus saves His people Israel from their sins (Mt.1:21 + 2:6), even "all Israel" (Rom.11:26)?

THAT’S what DID happen, not will happen. Jesus redeemed his people ALREADY and in consequence the world of man HAS BEEN reconciled.


I don't see how that remark answers the questions.

As to the meaning of eis ton aiona:

Greek scholar Marvin Vincent said:

"Both the noun and the adjective are applied to limited periods. Thus the phrase eis ton aiona, habitually rendered forever, is often used of duration which is limited in the very nature of the case. See, for a few out of many instances, LXX, Exod 21:6; 29:9; 32:13; Josh. 14:9 1 Sam 8:13; Lev. 25:46; Deut. 15:17; 1 Chron. 28:4;. See also Matt. 21:19; John 13:8 1 Cor. 8:13. The same is true of aionios. Out of 150 instances in LXX, four-fifths imply limited duration. For a few instances see Gen. 48:4; Num. 10:8; 15:15; Prov. 22:28; Jonah 2:6; Hab. 3:6; Isa. 61:17."

[by Marvin R. Vincent, from Word Studies in the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B Eerdmans, 1973, p.58f).]

http://what-the-hell-is-hell.com/2011/n ... struction/
https://books.google.ca/books?id=1eCBAA ... on&f=false

Exodus 21:6:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. (KJV)
Then he will be his servant for life. (NIV)
and he shall serve him permanently. (NASB)

Exodus 21:6, LXX has "eis ton aionas", clearly using it of finite duration. The phrase "eis ton aionas" does not mean forever in Exo.21:6.

The LXX scholars translated the Hebrew "le olam" as "eis ton aionas" in Exo.21:6. Obviously "le olam" does not mean forever or endless duration there (in the Hebrew) either.

The book "Life Time Entirety" refers on p.134 to the following passage where "eis ton aiona" is finite:

I Maccabees 14:41

καὶ ὅτι οἱ Ιουδαῖοι καὶ οἱ ἱερεῖς εὐδόκησαν τοῦ εἶναι αὐτῶν Σιμωνα ἡγούμενον καὶ ἀρχιερέα εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα ἕως τοῦ ἀναστῆναι προφήτην πιστὸν

Also that the Jews and priests were well pleased that Simon should be their governor and high priest for ever [eis ton aióna], until [eós]there should arise a faithful prophet

Likewise on p.133 it gives the same type of example of "eis ton aióna" being of finite duration in Isa.32:14-17.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=l-Smsh ... &q&f=false

davo wrote: Your literal-ONLY approach makes a total mockery of common sense… do you suppose there was a HUGE rock, i.e., Jesus actually literally following Israel around the desert 40yrs, as per?? 1Cor 10:4 :roll:



My approach isn't "literal only". Neither is it allegorical only, with which one can make Scripture say that God is the tooth fairy, Hitler, a Zombie or anything you are feeling or fancy at the moment.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:40 pm

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Is Israel to be cursed for ever? Or until Jesus saves His people Israel from their sins (Mt.1:21 + 2:6), even "all Israel" (Rom.11:26)?

THAT’S what DID happen, not will happen. Jesus redeemed his people ALREADY and in consequence the world of man HAS BEEN reconciled.


I don't see how that remark answers the questions.

Of course you don’t Origen because this old maxim states in spades your mentality on this… “you will not see what you don’t want to believe.

Just because <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> CAN be understood according to a restricted meaning, because it can, does NOT mean it cannot be applied in an unending sense, because it can … again CONTEXT helps see how that works. Someone’s lasting love CAN rightly, qualitatively, be understood as limited to the period whereby the one being held with said affection exists, and YET EXPRESS qualitatively the fullness or eternalness of that love
Jer 31:3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with loving kindness I have drawn you.

God’s love was *everlasting / forever / eternal* regardless of the fact that it was lasting only as long as the age wherein the recipient existed — it was truly everlasting regardless.

Hab 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations. And the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills bowed. His ways are everlasting.

These are *qualitative* phrases… “everlasting mountains” and “perpetual hills” — quite literally there are no such things; but this is *poetic license*. Not only this but to make the point… BOTH “perpetual” and the last “everlasting” in this verse are one and the same Hebrew word — <עוֹלָ֑ם> olam.

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote: Your literal-ONLY approach makes a total mockery of common sense… do you suppose there was a HUGE rock, i.e., Jesus actually literally following Israel around the desert 40yrs, as per?? 1Cor 10:4 :roll:


My approach isn't "literal only". Neither is it allegorical only, with which one can make Scripture say that God is the tooth fairy, Hitler, a Zombie or anything you are feeling or fancy at the moment.

It’s fine to say that here and now BUT everything you’ve written up the page and on other threads screams the opposite… your approach IMO is simply too inconsistent.
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:03 am

davo wrote:Of course you don’t Origen because this old maxim states in spades your mentality on this… “you will not see what you don’t want to believe.


That remark could be applied to anyone. Jesus spoke of first pulling the beam out of one's own eye.

davo wrote:Just because <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> CAN be understood according to a restricted meaning, because it can, does NOT mean it cannot be applied in an unending sense, because it can … again CONTEXT helps see how that works.


Who denies that context determines meaning? Yet there are still 100's of doctrinal & denominational divisions.

davo wrote:It’s fine to say that here and now BUT everything you’ve written up the page and on other threads screams the opposite… your approach IMO is simply too inconsistent.


Perhaps it would be helpful if you define the "literal only" approach you refer to. Does anyone you've ever met believe that? Consider this quote:

"And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."

How many Christians do you personally know walking around with one or two blind eyes because they took that statement literally?
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:11 pm

The following thread has some interesting comments re the phrase "eis ton aiona":

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=386
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:55 am

davo wrote:Just because <εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα> CAN be understood according to a restricted meaning, because it can, does NOT mean it cannot be applied in an unending sense, because it can … again CONTEXT helps see how that works. Someone’s lasting love CAN rightly, qualitatively, be understood as limited to the period whereby the one being held with said affection exists, and YET EXPRESS qualitatively the fullness or eternalness of that love
Jer 31:3 The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: “Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with loving kindness I have drawn you.

God’s love was *everlasting / forever / eternal* regardless of the fact that it was lasting only as long as the age wherein the recipient existed — it was truly everlasting regardless.

Hab 3:6 He stood and measured the earth; He looked and startled the nations. And the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills bowed. His ways are everlasting.

These are *qualitative* phrases… “everlasting mountains” and “perpetual hills” — quite literally there are no such things; but this is *poetic license*. Not only this but to make the point… BOTH “perpetual” and the last “everlasting” in this verse are one and the same Hebrew word — <עוֹלָ֑ם> olam.



There are some authors i've come across, e.g. Edward Fudge in The Fire That Consumes, who opine that aionios (= olam) has both a qualitative and quantitive sense. He actually considers the word to be more qualitative. And I think that works well for his Conditionalist interpretation of certain NT texts. Personally, i don't see it that way & view the words in a durational sense, as it seems people generally do.

From afar Yahweh has appeared to me, With love eonian I have loved you, Therefore I have drawn you [with] kindness. (Jer.31:3, CLV)

From afar Jehovah hath appeared to me, With love age-during I have loved thee, Therefore I have drawn thee with kindness. (Jer.31:3, YLT)

He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian. (Hab.3:6, CLV)

He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His. (Hab.3:6, YLT)
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Origen; » Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:09 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Is Israel to be cursed for ever? Or until Jesus saves His people Israel from their sins (Mt.1:21 + 2:6), even "all Israel" (Rom.11:26)?

THAT’S what DID happen, not will happen. Jesus redeemed his people ALREADY and in consequence the world of man HAS BEEN reconciled.


So is it your view that Israel is cursed forever, but has already been redeeemed?
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby davo » Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:02 pm

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Is Israel to be cursed for ever? Or until Jesus saves His people Israel from their sins (Mt.1:21 + 2:6), even "all Israel" (Rom.11:26)?

THAT’S what DID happen, not will happen. Jesus redeemed his people ALREADY and in consequence the world of man HAS BEEN reconciled.


So is it your view that Israel is cursed forever, but has already been redeeemed?

Paul is very clear… Jesus redeemed Israel of the old covenant, period, from the curse of the law, becoming that which had held Israel in bondage, i.e., himself accursed…
Gal 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”)
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Re: Please can I have a list of all LXX occurrences of aioni

Postby Hewillcome2040 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:53 pm

Here is all the verses where it is used:

Gen_9:12; Gen_9:16; Gen_17:7; Gen_17:8; Gen_17:13; Gen_17:19; Gen_21:33; Gen_48:4; Gen_49:26; Exo_3:15; Exo_12:14; Exo_12:17; Exo_27:21; Exo_28:43; Exo_29:28; Exo_30:21; Exo_31:17; Lev_3:17; Lev_6:18; Lev_6:22; Lev_7:34; Lev_7:36; Lev_10:9; Lev_10:15; Lev_16:29; Lev_16:31; Lev_16:34; Lev_17:7; Lev_23:14; Lev_23:21; Lev_23:31; Lev_23:41; Lev_24:3; Lev_24:8; Lev_24:9; Lev_25:34; Num_10:8; Num_15:15; Num_18:8; Num_18:11; Num_18:19; Num_18:23; Num_19:10; Num_19:21; Num_25:13; 2Sa_23:5; 1Ch_16:17; Job_10:22; Job_21:11; Job_22:15; Job_33:12; Job_34:17; Job_41:4; Psa_24:7; Psa_24:9; Psa_76:4; Psa_77:5; Psa_78:66; Psa_105:10; Psa_112:6; Psa_139:24; Pro_22:28; Pro_23:10; Isa_24:5; Isa_26:4; Isa_33:14; Isa_35:10; Isa_40:28; Isa_45:17; Isa_51:11; Isa_54:4; Isa_54:8; Isa_55:3; Isa_55:13; Isa_56:5; Isa_58:12; Isa_60:15; Isa_60:19; Isa_60:20; Isa_61:4; Isa_61:7; Isa_61:8; Isa_63:11; Isa_63:12; Jer_5:22; Jer_6:16; Jer_18:15; Jer_18:16; Jer_20:17; Jer_23:40; Jer_25:9; Jer_25:12; Jer_31:3; Jer_32:40; Jer_49:13; Jer_50:5; Jer_51:26; Jer_51:39; Eze_16:60; Eze_26:20; Eze_35:5; Eze_35:9; Eze_36:2; Eze_37:26; Dan_4:3; Dan_4:34; Dan_7:14; Dan_7:27; Dan_9:24; Dan_12:2; Jon_2:6; Mic_2:9; Hab_3:6; Mat_18:8; Mat_19:16; Mat_19:29; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46; Mar_3:29; Mar_10:17; Mar_10:30; Luk_10:25; Luk_16:9; Luk_18:18; Luk_18:30; Joh_3:15; Joh_3:16; Joh_3:36; Joh_4:14; Joh_4:36; Joh_5:24; Joh_5:39; Joh_6:27; Joh_6:40; Joh_6:47; Joh_6:54; Joh_6:68; Joh_10:28; Joh_12:25; Joh_12:50; Joh_17:2; Joh_17:3; Act_13:46; Act_13:48; Rom_2:7; Rom_5:21; Rom_6:22; Rom_6:23; Rom_16:25; Rom_16:26; 2Co_4:17; 2Co_4:18; 2Co_5:1; Gal_6:8; 2Th_1:9; 2Th_2:16; 1Ti_1:16; 1Ti_6:12; 1Ti_6:16; 1Ti_6:19; 2Ti_1:9; 2Ti_2:10; Tit_1:2; Tit_3:7; Phm_1:15; Heb_5:9; Heb_6:2; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:14; Heb_9:15; Heb_13:20; 1Pe_5:10; 2Pe_1:11; 1Jn_1:2; 1Jn_2:25; 1Jn_3:15; 1Jn_5:11; 1Jn_5:13; 1Jn_5:20; Jud_1:7; Jud_1:21; Rev_14:6.

That included Greek New Testament and the LXX for the old testament.
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