The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Poll: Are you a Trinitarian?

I agree that that translation makes sense, but I do not agree that it is correct, just as I agree that the Holy Spirit is eternal, while disagreeing that because “aionios” is used to describe the Spirit, therefore the adjective “aionios” means “eternal”.

The simple fact is that multiiple translators have assigned “conceive” to katabolen. In addition, it is confirmed in other ways. It is not as if context has no bearing on translation. The foundation is “laid down”. the seed is “cast down”. There is no inconsistency there. Construction, on the other hand, is what occurs after the foundation or the conception(interms of architectural plans)- “building up”- which has no etymological connection to katabolen, so it is as much an interpretation as a translation(imo). These same concepts(conceive/foundation/casting down/laying down/according to a blueprint or plan or seed) are repeatedly referenced throughout all the resources I have studied- but that in itself is not absolute confirmation, as with aion, which is really just “olam” rendered in Greek, so to understand aion one must reference “olam”, which is the thought of the writer. The absolute confirmation is the common sense understanding in the sentence itself, wherein Sarah receives power to conceive. The thought of the writer should not be obscured by the alternative writings of Greek philosophers, because the writer is the Holy Spirit, and the “foundation” and the “conception” is Hebrew.

Yes I am!

Are all three heads, so to speak, all equal?

They should be but your bible shows one higher or deserving of more respect than the other 2.

We can curse the Father and Son and be forgiven but cannot be forgiven for cursing the Holy Ghost.

Why/what is the difference and why is the Holy Ghost above the Father and Son while all Christians talk about is the Father and son?

Regards
DL

Eaglesway, let’s get real! The Holy Spirit did not write the book of Hebrews (or any other part of the Bible). Nor did God dictate the book of Hebrews to the writer. Rather, God inspired the writer. Yet the writer’s memory, thought, mode of expression, grammar, etc. was expressed in that writing.

Do you trust that writer in light of what the bibles says of them?

Isaiah 56:11) “They are shepherds who have no understanding; They have all turned to their own way, each on to his unjust gain, to the last one” But do not despair, for the day of judgment is at hand, for the day of judgment and the day of the LORD occupy the same time frame. All the dross will be burned away. (Zech 13:9) & (Malachi 3:3). In that day, “you will distinguish between the righteous and the wicked” (Malachi 3:18)

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Regards
DL

This is one of the only things that will cause me to deny that someone is my brother in Christ, if they deny trinitarianism.

Would you have denied a brother in say, the first 3 centuries AD, who had never heard of the Trinity? But still believed in The Father, his son the man Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit?

The only point I’m making is this: you are in essence saying, I think, that someone who believes in God who raised Jesus Christ from the dead, and who recognizes God’s faithfulness and responds in faithfulness, and is in fact filled with the Holy Spirit - is not a Christian, because he does not accept a ‘formulation’ from contested and often corrupt Church councils 1700 years ago.

Whether some form of Trin is ‘correct’ or not, I don’t think one’s opinion on it should break fellowship. God seems to honor the faith of many biblical unitarians, who bear fruit of the Holy Spirit and have scriptural beliefs.

$.02

Your statement is filled with a few unargued presuppositions:

  1. That you can believe in the Son, without believing He is God
  2. That a Christ who is not God, can be said to be the same Christ of the Bible
  3. That a unitarian is filled with the Spirit
  4. That the Trinity is merely a formulation
  5. That God honors the faith of unitarians
  6. That having some scriptural beliefs is enough to qualify you as a Christian

If I said I believed in you but professed that you were a 5" 2 muslim woman who adhered to a form of universalism there is no way one can argue that that is the same propisitional makeup as whoever you are. Likewise, in order to believe in the proposition of God, there are a few basic things that must be understood. This is a general rule.

What?? You cannot answer a simple question? I’m not going to battle here, is that your objective?
Let’s not get off on the wrong foot.

I answered your question by showing you that I think it is a loaded question. There was no animosity on my part towards you. I’m just not going to answer a question that pressuposes the answer in it. I don’t know where you got this idea that I was going to battle with you.

Okay, I see where this is heading. Been there, done that.

Blessings
Dave

Alright, whatever man. Anyway, though you are not able to discern my true intentions I’ll let you know that I am new to the forum and have followed your comments on other posts about Ultra-Universalism and enjoyed what you’ve had to say.

THAT is the statement that causes woe and the gritting of teeth. Because now, I am not your brother, right? Which means - what? Does that mean I’m not a christian? What is it to deny that someone is a brother in Christ?

Trins always think they are on the ‘high ground’ looking down at other pov’s. I dispute that, but I actually don’t care that much (because I don’t think it matters all that much), except when they say things like the above.

In any case, I’ll stay away from it. Dale Tuggy has an entire website concerning this and anyone interested can read to their heart’s content.

You and I will get along just fine.

I always stay away from the non-T topics/discussions (unless I should happen to get a complaint from one of them–which I can’t remember ever having gotten any). I love the people and do consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ, but I don’t want to argue the Trinity with them. I’m not the Holy Spirit and besides I’m not all that sure we disagree at the deepest levels. We just see things from a different perspective, Alexander. I haven’t discovered a way to explain how I view the Trinity so that they can see into my thought process, and I think they probably feel the same about me.

Okay, see? I didn’t know what in the world I said to bother you so much, because I clearly didn’t say anything with the intent to do that. Knowing now that you are a unitarian, that makes sense why you would be offended. Nevertheless, how you can deny that Christ is God baffles me.

I am not a unitarian. But it is understandable how you would think that.
We will have fruitful discussions on many topics, I expect, and I’m glad you are here on the Forum!

I’m not really that concerned about the doctrine, be it true or not; I do not think it is the secret handshake to being a ‘REAL’ Christian however.
Again, welcome. :smiley:

Actually I went to Dubuque IA a few months back and played a show with a guy who was a Unitarian. I kind of looked up the description of what a Unitarian was and … well, it wasn’t so bad. Any way the problem was the guy was a doof… told me in the middle of the show to turn my guitar volume down. I’m very conscience about that volume thing. I don’t like that… I really don’t like that. I wonder if it was his Unitarian ways :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

As Dave said we will be waiting for your discussions. :wink:

Alexander, I too, deny Trinitarianism, yet I do hold that Jesus is God in the sense that He is as fully divine and the Father who begat Him before all ages. So where does that leave me in your eyes? “A brother in Christ” or someone who is outside the fold?

What do you believe, if you don’t believe in the Trinity? It’s really troublesome because I don’t see how an honest person can look at the pages and just flat out deny the Trinity. It’s one of those doctrines that is not mysterious or hard to understand. It’s plain, simple, and right there in scripture. It’s really concerning. I’m not saying you’re being blatantly dishonest though. Why do you deny the Trinity?