The Evangelical Universalist Forum

I DEMAND JUSTICE! (or, y'know, injustice, whichever ;) )

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Passing through today, but saw this (aptly) satirical comment elsewhere and thought it would be a good discussion exercise in relation to Christian theology generally and universal salvation in particular.

Proceed! :slight_smile: :ugeek:

People will usually say that the salvation we are offered in Christ is not justice.

Sonia

True. How many times have I heard the (maybe sanctimonious?) comment, “I don’t want justice; I want mercy.” Or maybe even more commonly, “Believe me, brother. You don’t want justice; it’s mercy you need.” I know this to be true; I’ve been known to say it myself. :blush: Of course if it’s the other, other guy, it’s only human nature to DEMAND justice (in our favor).

For instance, try (I know you have) telling a staunch supporter of God’s “justice” as displayed in eternal conscious torment that it is not just to sentence finite beings to infinite punishment for finite crimes. Ooooh! Justice will be demanded. Sure, God is love, but He is also just! (and schizophrenic – I can use that now – Tom T said its archaic meaning is double-minded or some-such.) If one says that God’s justice is an attribute of His love, and not opposed to His love, the subject will be changed. Probably to the parable of Lazarus and Dives.

I’ve seen Calvs and Arms both, though more often Calvs, retort along the line that, sure it looks like completely anti-justice, but that’s because our ethical sense is so screwed up that we think what is justice is anti-justice and vice versa.

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Well, yeah, I have to admit it’s pretty common for people to accept anti-justice as justice due to original sin messing up our ethical sense! :laughing:

It just occurred to me for the first time, that some such people may consciously think that being able to accept blatantly obvious anti-justice as justice (or if the anti-justice is in their favor, as superior to justice), is a miracle from God, since no “human reasoning” would be able to accept it, and thus is evidence they have truly converted (if Arminian) or are of the elect (if Calvinist) and are being regenerated.

After all, that’s how Christians are commonly taught to think of the Trinity, too, more often than not, even when they aren’t overtly accepting and insisting on anti-justice as justice. :unamused:

George MacDonald proposed that “justice” simply means “fairness” or “fair play.” If MacDonald is right, then if you don’t want justice, you don’t want fairness. MacDonald believed that “justice” and “mercy” were NOT opposites, but fit nicely together.

If a person is being treated unfairly, he needs mercy and also fairness (from those who are treating him unjustly). If he cannot get it from them, then he needs it from someone else.

Yeah, I heard this a lot from a Calv church I once attended. Basically, you have to be “regenerated” in order accept God’s justice [and of course “His ways are higher than ours” … blah blah.] In fact it was seen as evidence that you’re saved.

Bizarre, CH. :frowning:

I think this issue is well illustrated by the sports field where in order to get to the truth in any event which occurs on the field of play more and more law comes into effect like the use of video replays to sort out who was being naughty and who was nice! Once the ref’s word was law and the game restarted but now it’s more complicated. The sad events in Sydney Australia again demonstrate the difficulty as the guy who caused the situation was out on bail (twice!). It’s easy to be wise after the event but hindsight is not foresight no matter what we would like. I’m glad the judge of all the earth will not have any trouble with the truth!

Yep, but I’ve seen Calvs especially go this route, too. (And Arms, but Calvs are more emphatic about it.) They don’t all go this way, but there’s a lot of… institutional pressure, so to speak, to go that way, thanks to older Aug/Calv teachers (not least Augustine and Calvin :wink: ).

What never occurred to me before is that those who do it think it’s evidence of their salvation, which thus makes it that much harder for them to come to terms with what they’re doing. I now recall someone who jousted with me here on the boards back when we were first starting (not that he posted here, he posted on his own blog), who was explicitly going that way: only saved people can learn to understand that what we would otherwise call utter and absolute injustice, and be correct about doing so in any other situation, is actually ultimate justice instead when we’re talking about God.

I have to admit, I deployed MacD’s Moloch sarcasm at that point. :imp: And anyone who has been around here long should know I’m not a big fan of doing that.

But even then it simply did not occur to me that, for him, this was a personally important reassurance that he was one of the elect.

Though to an Arminian who goes this far (again not all of them do), it might be a personally important reassurance that they’ve said and/or done the right things to convince God to (currently or certainly) save them.

Either way, when looked at like that, it reminds me strongly of the horrible side of paganism: it gets to the point where people do the worst unrealities they can imagine as a reassurance they’ve been chosen by the deity (otherwise they couldn’t do it), or that they can compel the deity’s attention and action (by impressing him/her/it with their will to power or their devotion or whatever).

:open_mouth:

… blah blah.] In fact it was seen as evidence that you’re saved.
Honestly, I might do something stupid if I hear or read one more person use that verse to support their disgusting view that God’s justice involves predestining that evil and sin continues forever when he could put a stop to it if he wanted to. People can treat verses as if they were the exact opposite of their contexts if they really want to but if they’re going to take it a step further by then forcing their incredible misreading of it aggressively against someone who disagrees with them then they shouldn’t complain if the other person gets a bit annoyed with them.

I feel you on that, Jonny!. That specific verse has been used to justify all kinds of evil. There are other verses that were distorted to support their view as well - for e.g, “the natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.” So, I guess that’s why I can’t understand God’s justice - after all, they’ve got the mind of Christ, and I don’t.

And yes, Jason, that’s precisely why they can’t or won’t question their beliefs: the evidence and assurance of their salvation depends on it.