Yeah; nobody really knows how we view present reality once the veil has been removed, or if all NDEs are simply products of the imagination. If real though, I think I’m inclined to think as you do, Sherman.
A few years ago, a friend who was upset about me going UR challenged me to watch several NDE testimony vids, 7 or 8 of them. He thought they would convince me of the reality of an ECT Hell. I watched them because he is a friend but I noticed several things he obviously, or obivivasly, did not notice. For exampl:
- In each case where a person who was not saved died and experienced “Hell”, the person go saved, ALL. Some got saved while they were dead, and some got saved shortly after coming back to life. So for none of the people who experienced “Hell”, was “Hell” endless.
- For the Christians who experienced “Hell” and “Heaven”, they came back to life with a tremendous passion to share the good news of God’s love for everyone.
- In one testimony, the unsaved lady was experiencing “Hell” and saw an “uncrossable gulf” only to have Jesus save her, carry her across the gulf and reveal to her His love and heaven before taking her back to her body.
- And every time someone experienced Judgment it resulted in the person being delivered from evil by understanding the truth of God’s love and their depravity, especially the sin that caused pain in others. Judgment was always for the person’s good, to draw them into God, and it was never to seperate someone from God.
I studied these testimonies “assuming” that the person was being honest about their experience and seeking to understand them via what I believe scripture to reveal. What they experienced could have been real or only mental; either way I considered them to have experienced it. But of course, I do not consider their experience “authoritative” in any way.
Yeah, that’s fair enough. I don’t doubt that some of these experiences really have happened, and I think it’s great that these people have often changed their lives around and come to really love Jesus. Not knowing anybody who’s had this sort of after-death experience or vision, I prefer to stay away from paying too much attention or focus to these stories because I cannot really make a judgement call on them as people.
The only person I personally know who had an NDE is my aunt. She died on the operating table because of an annuerism (sp?). The doctors were operating on her for an annuerism and caused another one. She died for a few minutes but they ressussitated her, though they had to remove part of her brain and close the wound to stop the hemorraging. They thought if she lived she’d be a veggie, but when she finally awoke she had her full faculties.
She later shared that while she was dead she went to heaven and saw Jesus. He spoke to her just briefly saying she had to go back. She said she didn’t want to. But Jesus said that she had to go back for her youngest son’s sake because he needed her. So she came back and lived another 30 years or so in realitively good health. And it turns out that her son did desperately need her. It’s a long story, but all in the family except her gave up on her son because of his bad behavior. She never did though. And because she never did, her son eventually turned around and started making better decisions. She was one of the kindest, most gracious, caring, loving, and hard working persons I’ve ever known.
I have a sneaking suspicion that these experiences are much like the visions experienced by some of the biblical writers. Perhaps the state of consciousness (or unconsciousness) they’re in allows them to “pierce the veil” as it were and see things in the spiritual realm that we are unable to see in our usual state. The descriptions that people come up with are perhaps much like John’s in revelation, trying to describe what he sees in the language available to him. Perhaps that’s why there are so many reports of a “hell” like experience where people see what the reality of the universe would be like if it weren’t for Christ.
Of course, none of this explains people who have “died” and come back and have experienced nothing at all, they report it as having been like they were asleep.
Melchi, I’m just reading a book about NDE’s by a cardiologist who’s done prospective studies. According to him, about one in ten do remember experiences, and remembering is higher with people who also have clear memories of dreams and who are younger. He thinks it has more to do with people’s ability to remember than with having/not having an experience. But that’s just his educated speculation of course.
It’s certainly possible (and makes sense) if what happens is something akin to dreaming. They say that we don’t really “not dream”, we just don’t always remember them.
Certain vitamin deficiencies can sometimes cause changes in brain chemistry that can prevent one from remembering dreams. That doesn’t really have anything to do with the discussion necessarily, it’s just interesting. 
Normally, I ignore this kind of stuff. I still don’t know what to make of the whole The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven story even after reading it a couple of years ago. Though, when I watch this video, I had some of the same observations Sherman had. This video gives me great hope rather than fear. I was led by the Spirit to come to this website to watch this video because of a personal revelation in the video. I truly believe what this guy is saying is true. Nowhere in the video does he actually contradict the Christian UR message; he only says that hell exists, which I already knew. Though, this might be a reference also to what happens to the spirit when the person enters Sheol. People that haven’t given their lives all for Christ are in hell and everyone else is enjoying heaven. At the first resurrection, those whose spirits who were in heaven get resurrected bodies. At the second resurrection, those who had faith without evidence of works will also inherit life after having their spirits in Sheol. The wicked, at that point, still need discipline from God and His sons. Those who had faith without works are those who did not put all their ‘poker chips on the table’, so to speak. They weren’t fully committed to God. Anything less than perfection through Christ in us is hell. Sorry, I don’t feel like providing my biblical reasoning for the above statements but I’m willing to explain in a different discussion if someone asks.
As to the validity of this story, I believe there is a very good chance it is true because the man was induced by a combination of drugs and death resulting an altered state of consciousness leading up to the NDE experience. Also, it is possible that God wanted to use this state-of-(un)consciousness to give new birth (as mentioned in John 3) to this man just like He did to Paul. This is also an example of what I call God’s sovereignty trumping the authority of human free-will because of His great love for us. 
Last point, validity for the spiritual cannot be proved science, yet. I doubt it will be proved until scientists learn to grapple with divinity.
Thanks for sharing, Sherman.
I believe in NDEs, that is “NEAR death experiences”, but that is a far cry from believing in ADEs (AFTER death experiences) or ADERTLs (“after death experience & return to life”). I happen to believe that when you’re dead, you’re dead, and will remain dead until your resurrection.
I think NDEs may be given by God as a foretaste of post-resurrection experiences. Or in some cases, demons may have a hand in it in an attempt to deceive people into believing that the Resurrection is unnecessary.
I have noticed that accounts of many people who supposedly returned from death, are about going down a long tunnel, and feeling overwhelmed with joy as they reach the other end. It doesn’t seem to matter whether the person who experienced the NDE was a Christian or a non-Christian.
I have also noticed that accounts by Christians of their supposed ADERTL that involved God or Jesus or angels, is always consistent with what they believed prior to this experience, and is inconsistent to what various other Christians believe.
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I think that many NDEs are genuine spiritual experiences.
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It is a fact that every person is fallible, and thus his interpretations of his NDE and his NDE itself are necessarily fallible. Only the Holy Trinity is infallible.
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Given the above two observations, I never allow an NDE to over-rule my Orthodox faith. When an NDE is consistent with Orthodoxy, I rejoice in it. When an NDE is inconsistent with Orthodoxy, I think that some fallible person made a mistake somewhere.
Hey that’s some really good logic there, Geoffrey. I definitely think that is the best approach.
The thing is that while we yearn for confirmation in NDEs shedding some light of the afterlife, we are skeptical as we view these accounts through the lens of our orthodoxy. We hope to see a “unified theory” on NDEs, yet we cannot merely just hold onto the accounts that seem to favor our view. What about Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, and even Jewish NDE accounts that thwart those efforts to come up with a smooth explanation? Do we just discount them because they don’t line up with our views? Do we pass them off as deceptions of Satan? Or are we safer in just catagorically denying that NDEs have any basis in reality at all?
Hindu NDE:
youtube.com/watch?v=vWcs-AykknQ
Muslim NDE:
youtube.com/watch?v=6hjr1aCW28g
Buddhist NDE:
youtube.com/watch?v=9YOA_hHPVFQ
Jewish NDE:
I do not doubt that many non-Christian NDEs are genuine spiritual experiences. I don’t doubt that God will often communicate with us where we are. I further think that our fallibility and sinfulness puts “lenses” on what we perceive. Thus a Muslim wears Islamic lenses, an Evangelical wears Evangelical lenses, a Buddhist wears Buddhist lenses, etc. Each of them thus tends to have an NDE that is Islamic or Evangelical or Buddhist or etc. (as the case may be).
These considerations do not invalidate the genuineness of these spiritual experiences. They do rule-out, however, using NDEs as normative for one’s faith. This is neither surprising nor scandalous. The only perfect and complete revelation of God is in the incarnation of God the Son in Jesus Christ. All else (including all NDEs) is imperfect and incomplete.
That’s much the way I think, Geoffrey. I would never consider denying that people have NDEs. What I question is their interpretation of the NDEs which they have experienced.
It may indeed be that God will meet them where they are. And that after death there is a gradual progression starting within their paradigm as the experience in the afterlife enlightens the soul toward *** the truth and reality of who God is**. From what I see from these NDEs, there is a fundamental change in the individual experiencing it, a change in attitude in a mostly positive direction that seems to give their life a much better outlook and purpose than was evident before, regardless of religious affiliation. Indeed, the NDE has inspired them to be better Buddhists, better Muslims, Better Hindus, etc. For sure, most are convinced there is some reality after death, and that alone is sufficient to cause a greater sense of hope.
Yes, these accounts are problematic if one adheres to the traditional view of Christianity, and may just as well dismiss them for lack of basis in biblical reality. But fore us that hold to a Greater Hope, there is far more latitude in giving these accounts the benefit of the doubt, if only because we believe that God truly loves those in different religions as well. Not to discount Christ redeeming work on the Cross, but my gut feeling is that the application of the Blood of Christ is in work in the lives of people who we normally wouldn’t think were “in the fold”. “Other sheep” perhaps?
*** NOTE: Indeed, even us Christians may be in for a few surprises of who God really is. 
**
That’s one of the things that is interesting about these. There always seems to be at least some deviation from orthodoxy at some point for almost every account I’ve read. In many cases, there are wild deviations from orthodoxy! The other interesting thing is that many people get disabused of some notions they had prior to the experience, whether orthodox or otherwise.
If Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, why can he not disguise himself as the young grandfather of the little boy who supposedly went to heaven, or his long-gone sister whom he’d never heard of previously?
First of all, he did not really die. Perhaps the death process began when his heart stopped or whatever happened on the operating table - but he was not cold in the morgue with rigor motis dead.
People who are under a lot of stress, say in a situation where they think they are going to die, but are fine physically, they will have visions or NDE experiences. Fighter pilots whose blood leaves their brains under G-force will have these types of experiences (Richard Arbanes, “Journey into the Light”).
Concerning the video, he was stressed out, thinking he may be dying, and he was drugged, nevertheless, something happened that caused him to know Jesus is real so I count my blessings that we have a new brother in the Lord. If we were in conversation with him, we could ask questions that would reveal if there were a deception at work here in spite of the good fruit it bore.
“Love believes all things”, yet, we are to “test all things” as well.
I agree with Paidion’s statement, “in some cases, demons may have a hand in it in an attempt to deceive people into believing that the Resurrection is unnecessary.”
Before I came to the Lord, I had different experiences with the supernatural, so it was not a ‘stretch’ to believe God could change my heart and indwell me by His spirit.
Good statement, Geoff: “The only perfect and complete revelation of God is in the incarnation of God the Son in Jesus Christ. All else (including all NDEs) is imperfect and incomplete.”
The problem with discounting all NDE’s (I am agnostic towards them) is that in order to be intellectually honest, we must also essentially lump everyone person the Bible who had a vision, dream, etc… Surely everyone can see the blatant double standard that can exist with these things? I’ll be real here.
My Father was ‘slain in the spirit’ or so he says (I believe him). When he tells some Christians of this type of conversion event, some mock, some question him and some say Praise God (all three responses from the same room of people in Church). Whether or not being slain in the spirit is of God, the fruits of it were this: My Father changed his life around. My mother said he started to change from that day forward. He isn’t the same person she married. Now, you can tell my Dad it wasn’t real, or wasn’t of God, but you would have a difficult time answering how he changed his life around and if this was of ‘Satan’ as many suggest, then Satan sure messed that one up, because he turned to God. Whether it was real or not, I have no clue. I just believe that he had that experience and it changed his life. If we call it biological, then we must be prepared to do the same for all the Biblical writers as well, including Paul.
Two thoughts here: Regarding the first; I think we may be reading the satan disguised as an angel of light thing too literally. What if all that scriptural statement means is that the adversary can bring messages that look true but aren’t? After all “angel” means message/ messenger in the original language, so it doesn’t have to be a person or being. Similarly, adversary “satan” is a role, not a title. So I don’t think we necessarily have an evil being masquerading as a person in that verse.
Secondly; I don’t think one would necessarily have to disbelieve in a resurrection due to this. The question becomes about what the nature of the resurrection is and when it occurs. It may be possible that the resurrection is instantaneous for each individual. I don’t necessarily think that’s what’s happening in these cases though. As I’ve said before, I liken these to visions in altered states of consciousness rather than actual after death experiences.