Blood flow is the key to all mental processes. 
I would contend that while knowledge may be a necessary component of those things, that doesn’t raise it above them. You could say that air is more important than knowledge, because without air we’re all dead. Or maybe it’s the sun that’s most important. Life probably trumps knowledge, because if you can’t know anything without first being alive.
The possession of knowledge is not as important as how we choose to use our knowledge.
Sonia
GB,
If you’d trouble yourself to read carefully what I actually wrote, you’d see that while I do believe that knowledge is vital, I maintain that it is not all-important. The SOURCE of the knowledge (not its own self AS knowledge) is the thing that’s up for judgment in the Garden Myth. Our Father desires to teach us knowledge in a context of love and in company with wisdom, peace, joy, and delight. Rather than choose to imbibe His offered life, and through the life, the knowledge, we (as a race) chose and continue to choose, the knowledge all unclothed with the gracious wisdom and love of our all-knowing Father’s tutelage. And how could He be BUT all-knowing, as it was He who created all there is to know ABOUT?
What is the result of this oh-so-unfortunate choice? The vastest portion of our poor understanding (which we are so gauche as to label “knowledge”) is the knowledge gained of necessity by and/or as a result of the prosecution of warfare. Yes today we have hosts of scientists pursuing knowledge for its own sake, but progress in this world has historically come about as the need for the development of better weapons, better stratagems, better logistics, better skills, better defenses, better preparation for attacking and defending, for offering or meeting violent incursions by enemies. So no, I do NOT believe knowledge is supreme. It SHOULD be a wonderful servant and tool, and if we had taken it from the mouth of our wise and loving Father, it would have been just that. Instead we preferred our own beggarly cleverness. Woe is upon us for that disastrous decision.
And please refrain from patronizing me. If you’d been reading the things I’ve written to you here and elsewhere, you ought to have known that I see the Garden Narrative as sacred myth – the best kind of container for the sort of truth we’re unable to take in quite so well by any other means.
All those “Wisdom? Love? Hope? Faith?” are all based on knowledge.
Knowledge must come first before any of the others can be actualized.
Wisdom uses knowledge to determine wisdom, love must have the knowledge od who to love and why, hope for whatever you have knowledge of and faith without facts is for fools.
Knowledge is key to all mental processes.
Regards
DL
Blood flow is the key to all mental processes.
I would contend that while knowledge may be a necessary component of those things, that doesn’t raise it above them. You could say that air is more important than knowledge, because without air we’re all dead. Or maybe it’s the sun that’s most important. Life probably trumps knowledge, because if you can’t know anything without first being alive.
The possession of knowledge is not as important as how we choose to use our knowledge.
Sonia
True but you need it first before you can do something with it or develop the wisdom to know where to apply what bit of knowledge.
Nice deflection but you cannot hide that you have lost this round my dear. A wise woman would take that knowledge and recant.
Regards
DL
You call it all a myth, which would include the creator part and yet you seem to believe in the supernatural creator. Are you into woo or reality?
My view of God is as a man just as Jesus indicates it is as a part of his good news message.
youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes … r_embedded
What is your God if not a man and why do you believe, by hearsay alone, that he can do woo?
Regards
DL
Who said knowledge is of primary importance? What sort of knowledge? Are we talking about technical know how, science, history, practical wisdom here DL? NO you are talking about deep insight into the nature and ground of reality. Well a lot of this knowledge come from realising how limited we are surely. Socrates was said to be wise because he knew the limits of his knowledge - a way of unknowing is part and parcel of true knowing. And we do learn and attain wisdom through loving. Love is about relationship - its about responding to the needs of the other. If we remain in the shell of self regard we may memorise a library or two but will have actually learnt nothing of importance. For Christian’s loving relationship is grounded in God’s love for us as revealed in Christ. Part of the ‘knowledge’ that is love’ is to understand that there is a part of the person we love which will remain a mystery to us.
I think you’re claiming victory a little too quickly. 
You still have not convinced me that knowledge is the most important thing. It is important, but I think other things are more so. However, we may be at an impasse on this point.
Sonia
Hmmm - that’s a tad patronising 
No kidding, Dick. Patronizingness (especially against someone as kind and patient as Sonja) seriously raises my hackles.
GB said (to me)
Um . . . would someone like to translate? Even if this is just a run-on sentence, I’m not sure there’s enough “information” here for me to even comment on.
Well I’m befuddled too Cinders; lovely to touch base with you - and hope all is well dear Friend 
In Christ our Hen
Dick
Kate,
I totally like the conclusion made that Heaven is a practical matter of living like Christ now.
I think Heaven is a gradual process that consists of the Christlike goodness in us and in the world in improvement over time. Unfortunately, because the world is very corrupt, the world won’t become heavenly until Jesus recreates it. The process of becoming more heavenly now is three steps: justification, sanctification, and glorification. Most Christians are stuck in sanctification. Few throughout history become saints (immediately glorified at Christ’s return). And many churches seem to just focus on justification, thus they focus on an otherworldly heaven where they will be renewed there. If the three-step process of purification to become more like Jesus is true, then a gradual process seems to beget a more honest sense of heaven. Personally, I’m still being sanctified and therefore I am living a little bit up to my potential of being glorified in “heaven”. Whether we go ‘out there’ or in some non-dimensional form of existence (spiritual) it doesn’t really seem to make strong use of the process of being glorified. The physical resurrection of the dead happens for the saints but they stay on earth. Even after everyone has been saved and glorified, there is no apparent need to ‘escape’ physically. The Bible assures me that “‘all flesh shall come to worship before me’, says the Lord.” Isaiah 66:23 Every person will physically be able to exalt the Lord indicating heaven is on earth.
I think I read somewhere on this discussion about the mansions in heaven. Someone mentioned that the mansions are symbolic of the roles the overcomers play in ‘judging’ the earth. I agree but I also think there is a double meaning. The mansions… well, could literally be mansions for the overcomers to live in. John the revelator could have seen both a inward and outward form of mansions and the whole heavenly realm.
Good thoughts, Nick. Thanks!
I think I mainly agree with you, but I believe I’d emphasize the graduality of the process even more. I’ve begun to notice in the last ten or so years how everything on earth and in the heavens seems to exist in some sort of gradient, and I agree with GMac that the natural creation is a book for us, to teach us who God is. It is, insofar as uncorrupted, or so far as we can to some degree perceive what it might BE, uncorrupted, a portrait for us of our Father and of His manner of working in more distinctly spiritual dimensions. Regarding this gradient idea, an example I think of sometimes is our local white-tail and black-tail (mule) deer. I used to think of them as two separate species, but here in the conflux of the two, they aren’t really. There are white-tail and various mixes, and then mulies. There’s a gradient between the two – no firm dividing line as of pure whitetail --> 1/4:3/4 --> 1/2:1/2 --> 3/4:1/4 --> pure mulie.
To me, thinking of these “steps” of justification, sanctification, glorification is artificial, and not the way we really see things in nature. I think probably these steps are intermingled. Justification (dikaiosune) is a complex word which, as far as I understand, has to do with being together in love and mutual respect with our brothers and sisters and our God or, as Jason has put it, “fair togetherness.” Sanctification (hagiadzo) means to make holy, to purify and consecrate. This is maybe a thing with which we cooperate, but which we can’t really do effectively on our own – maybe like treating a cavity in our own tooth – (move this way, open your mouth a little more, don’t bite the dentist . . . next time don’t forget to brush and floss . . . .) I think these two can and typically do grow simultaneously. And as they grow, we also become more glorious – we display the face of our Lord more and more clearly. It doesn’t seem to me that we’re meant to see this as three different and progressive stages, of which we must complete the one before we can enter into the next in the series. As we grow in the first – as we learn to live together in love and kindness and fairness to one another and with our Lord, we naturally and at the same time become more and more unlike the corruption of the world and more separated out unto God, and as these are happening, well, “from glory to glory He transforms us” – we begin more and more to shine with the glory that is His life and His beauty shining out from us.
Like you, I do think there has to be a “crossing over” beyond which He becomes all in all and the natural world is renewed, the dead all raised, the corruptible puts on incorruption and all is at last one (as we now see that God is one). I wonder though, whether we’ll ever cease to become more like Him. He’s infinite after all, and we’re not. So for us to be changed into His image seems to me likely to be a never-ending, ever more glorious quest. How can we ever fully attain to the fulness of Christ? This to me seems a wonderful thing, always to be exploring Him and His glory to higher heights and profounder depths. What a great adventure!
Anyway, this is my idea of “heaven” (in part). Just me musing. 
I agree Cindy. I never contemplated how the different phases of faith could mingle.
The idea of it is based off of (in my research) the 3 major feast days of the Hebrew calendar: Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles. Each one speaks of a transition point of the Hebrew journey to the Promised Land. In general, the idea of 3’s in the Bible is quite prevalent. Other examples include the days that Christ was dead (Death on the cross, then rest in the grave on Sabbath, and then resurrection) or when Jesus was tempted in the desert. The temptations in the desert represent the 3 levels of faith which I explain below.
The first temptation of stone being turned into bread Jesus did not do which he responds by saying that man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Looking back at the Israelites, they were weak in faith because they did not trust God to feed and protect them yet they had enough faith to trust that God would take them out of Egypt by putting blood on the doorpost. The Israelites tempted God to directly profit them. Thus the first level of faith is a basic belief/trust in God. However, people at this level of faith ask too much of God (much like kids asking for parents to give them everything they want.) If God provided what the Israelites or any people of low level of faith what they want, then they become spoiled and do not mature. They must learn that God’s word is exceedingly more profitable than the world’s riches. That is what I mean by a faith that has only reached a level of justification. My opinion: Sometimes, I think sincere people who settle for the prosperity gospel are at this level of faith.
The next level of temptation is when Jesus is presented all the kingdoms of this earth and was told to bow down to Satan if He wanted the power. Jesus responds by basically reciting the first commandment. The problem is that Satan had “usurped” authority over earth without really owning it because he got Adam to declare allegiance to him through sin. Satan was offering the easy way out of ruling the earth so Jesus wouldn’t have to die on the cross. Jesus overcame by recognizing and obeying the sovereignty of God. The Israelites faced a similar trial. After they were told they would have to wait 40 years to go the Promised Land because of sin. Some attempted to rebel and lead the Israelites into battle thinking God was on their side and they lost. (Numbers 14:39-45) The question for believers today is do we try to receive God’s promises before we mature or do we wait for signs from God? This is a rather long phase of faith that requires disciplining God’s children until they began to recognize His wisdom. Sanctification is a way of “wising” us up by learning by trial and error that our ways of doing things will ultimately lead us down to a “wide” road of destruction. My opinion: People who are blinded by denominational beliefs and/or don’t read the Bible and pursue God outside of their ‘mental walls’ will likely never really grasp this level of faith quite well even though they believe in God. I learned this from my own experience.
The next temptation is when Jesus is told to commit suicide and let God save him from the attempt while thousands of eyes down below in the temple are watching. Jesus responds by saying “don’t test God.” Satan’s doctrine was to use scripture out of context (Psalms 91) which talks about how angels will prevent ‘your foot from striking a stone’. It comes down to using God’ Word in vain. But how can one know if they are taking His words in vain? If they know the “mind of God” or His intent/will they will not misuse His words. The only Israelites to know God well enough to know that He would protect them was Caleb and Joshua. So in a sense, they knew the “mind of God”. Thus, the faith of glorified believers is so powerful as to bring them to a position of Sonship with God because they do His will with joy and understanding like angels. This level of faith brings glorification. Those at this level of faith are human representatives of Heaven. They truly do live as princes and princesses in the Kingdom of God.
Cindy, you are right when you say that characteristics of justification, sanctification, and glorification mingle in our relationship with Jesus. The Israelites, at times, seemed to fall way backwards in their faith or sometimes they would obey His laws and they would become victorious in battle. While, we as followers of God, fall and overcome in our faith, we must not cower from the straight and narrow path to Heaven.
♪Onward Christian soldiers♪
Hi, Nick
Hey, since you bring up the Temptation in the Wilderness, I’ll bet you’d enjoy this sermon by George MacDonald: The Temptation in the Wilderness. Or here’s an audio version:
I always enjoy hearing new perspectives, and this one has some things I hadn’t thought of or heard before.
Enjoy!
The bible and any intelligent person will know that knowledge is key to everything. That is why it was accentuated so strongly in genesis.
Good and evil apply to almost everything and brings the knowledge of almost everything.
"Love is about relationship - its about responding to the needs of the other. "
You must then have to have knowledge of those needs. Right?
Can you love without that knowledge? No you cannot.
Regards
DL
The thing I like about Gnosticism is that it teaches us to have self-knowledge.
What do you see as Jesus preaching?
For man to free himself from the control systems in place, — or was he telling us to follow what was in place and be either slaves to God or to sin?
I suggest that the churches and bible teach that we are to be slaves to God or to sin. Jesus taught that we should seek the highest form of freedom
that we can attain and that God is to serve us and not us serve him.
Try this.
youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbes … r_embedded
Who is your God?
Regards
DL
That is key and goes with self respect. Know thyself. The good, the bad and the ugly.
You will find that you are not that bad.
If you have a preferred myth or religion then internalizing it will help. It is not required though.
Meditation works for some and did for me.
youtube.com/watch?v=FdSVl_HOo8Y
Regards
DL
Hey Gnostic Bishop,
Yep. One of the things that has also helped me in self-knowledge is writing down my entire life story and reading it to a trusted friend.
Nice.
I can be more honest with myself than others though even when trying to be as honest as possible.
Regards
DL
Moderation note:
The discussion here has drifted far from Kate’s OP. Gnostic Bishop has started at least 3 threads for discussion of his views, so please take the discussion to one of those, or start a new one if appropriate.
Kate summarized her OP as:
Please keep any further posts on topic.
Thanks,
Sonia