ultra universalism

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ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:45 am

I'm becoming ultra universalist in my soteriology. Are there any books by universalists who don't believe in postmortem unpleasantness?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:51 am

There are those who hold to a book called "A Course in Miracles". They're usually Unitary Universalists. The book has some good insights in it.


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They believe in Christ and the Holy Spirit. They say the end of the world is brought in by laughter not apocalyptic imagery. Like Hindus and Buddhists they believe that the only thing real is love or the eternal. That which can be destroyed is unreal or illusion. While I believe the ego is illusion I haven't gotten all the way to saying the physical is illusion. I do believe that the world is insane like the book teaches though and that we are nobody special.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:54 am

Maybe I should have been more specific. CHRISTIAN ultra universalism.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:57 am

Well, they believe in Christ. They're not fundamentalism though.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:03 pm

Here's a metaphysical interpretation of the latter half of the New Testament. It's a Unity classic. "Be Ye Transformed: Acts Through Revelation Metaphysically Interpreted" by Elizabeth Sand Turner



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This third volume of Elizabeth Sand Turner's trilogy of Bible interpretation will bring new meaning to the metaphysical interpretation of Acts, the letters of Paul, and Revelation. Known for her two other classics, Let There Be Light and Your Hope of Glory, Turner will show you how to transform your life by learning to live by Christian principles. This book, based on Charles Fillmore's metaphysical Bible interpretation, covers the early church, the ministry and epistles of Paul, the General Epistles, and the Revelation to John.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:05 pm

Michael, it doesn't sound like that book has anything to do with ultra universalism. Please refrain from promoting books in this thread unless they are ultra universalist books.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:07 pm

I guess I don't know what Ultra-Universalism is then. She doesn't believe in afterlife hell and believes in unity. I'll refrain because I don't know what you are talking about.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Wed Dec 06, 2017 2:19 pm

Hey qaz. I found some on Amazon. Go to Amazon and type in Ultra-Universalism if you haven't already done so. I may look into this myself. I've never heard of it before. Thanks!
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:07 pm

qaz wrote:I'm becoming ultra universalist in my soteriology. Are there any books by universalists who don't believe in postmortem unpleasantness?


Yes, I might have mentioned to read Elisabeth Kübler-Ross 'On Life After Death'... Totally changed the way both my wife and myself viewed the afterlife of Christians. Great stuff short read.

Good luck.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:08 pm

St. Michael wrote:I guess I don't know what Ultra-Universalism is then. She doesn't believe in afterlife hell and believes in unity. I'll refrain because I don't know what you are talking about.


Ultra universalism is the belief that everyone will be immediately ushered into heaven when they die. Most universalists believe in postmortem punishment (or as they say, "correction"). UUs do not. Our forum member Geoffrey was an UU.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:16 pm

I'm going to get a few of the books. I have to wait for my Christmas money though.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Bob Wilson » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:20 pm

As I've said before, the many influential evangelical universalists, including those who inspired this site, appear to find ultra universalism contrary to Scripture. Since it nonetheless has appeared popular here, I too would be interested in a volume defending it by someone who is a student of the Bible and evangelical theology.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:22 pm

Bob Wilson wrote:As I've said before, the many influential evangelical universalists, including those who inspired this site, appear to find ultra universalism contrary to Scripture. Since it nonetheless has appeared popular here, I too would be interested in a volume defending it by someone who is a student of the Bible and evangelical theology.


I keep in touch through email with Geoffrey. He's really helped me believe in UU's plausibility.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Paidion » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:46 pm

My understanding of ultra-universalism is that it promotes the idea that everyone automatically goes to heaven or to God at some point after death, and that no correction of character is necessary in order for that to happen. I strongly oppose this point of view. The whole purpose of Jesus' death was to deliver us from sin itself, that a character change is necessary, though salvation is a life-long process. Paul said that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion in the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6). I hold he position that if that the salvation process has not been completed in the day of Jesus Christ, then it will have to be completed later through God's loving correction.

Most people think all universalists are of the ultra stripe. It is for that very reason that I don't identify myself as a universalist, but as a "reconciliationist." For I don't wish to be identified with ultra-universalism which I consider to be one of the words heresies. If UU were true, then change of character or avoidance of evil behaviour in this life is unnecessary. This negates the teaching of Jesus and the apostles.

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby St. Michael » Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:48 pm

Thanks for the warning Paidion.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:03 pm

Paidion, the UU belief is that change of character will occur. It will occur in an instant, but it will occur nonetheless.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Dec 06, 2017 4:10 pm

Bob, read the book I recommended to qaz. I think you will at least start to see a different view.

Thanks

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:00 pm

Chad, is the author of that book an UU?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:30 pm

qaz wrote:Paidion, the UU belief is that change of character will occur. It will occur in an instant, but it will occur nonetheless.


Without any pain or punishment, i presume.

The change or correction could also occur, painlessly & without punishment, over a longer period of time, such as days, years or ages.

But it seems i'm with Paidon & Scripture on this. IOW there will be afterlife correction & it will involve suffering & the wrath of God.

Just as with the correcting in this life with those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, who are walking by the Spirit, taking their crosses daily, crucifying the flesh, & being transformed into His likeness, from glory to glory. Except we do not face His wrath.

UU would make the process of salvation different from how it works in this life.

UU would also, arguably, make the process of salvation in this life pointless. Why bother. Why not instead go & enjoy the "pleasures of sin"? Then at death be instantly transferred to endless heaven. IOW eat your cake & have it too.

UU also seems to require ignoring a ton of Scripture. Well, unless you're a Pantelist or Preterist, perhaps. Even then.

Is UU being believed because it's Scriptural, or because the flesh likes the idea of it, for various reasons, e.g. unsaved family members?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Paidion » Wed Dec 06, 2017 5:54 pm

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:34 pm

Origen, your arguments sound exactly like arguments employed by ETs.

Is UU being believed because it's Scriptural, or because the flesh likes the idea of it


What a rotten thing to say.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Paidion » Wed Dec 06, 2017 7:45 pm

Origen, your arguments sound exactly like arguments employed by ETs.

qaz, could you give an example?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Wed Dec 06, 2017 9:40 pm

As a pantelist… I view “judgement” as pertinent to “rewards” and such pertinent to “works”. *Judgement* has NOTHING to do with one’s access to the presence of God postmortem, i.e., pantelism does not buy into the unbiblical doctrine of purgatory, regardless of whatever shade is being peddled.

In the synoptics Jesus ALWAYS tired judgement to works and their attendant rewards, or the lack thereof.
Mt 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Rev 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.


Origen; wrote:UU would also, arguably, make the process of salvation in this life pointless. Why bother. Why not instead go & enjoy the "pleasures of sin"?

Let me be clear, I’m not making a case either way for the UU under discussion here, though I’d be leaning somewhat that direction. But your statement above is amazing! The ONLY motivation your Christian life has for not considering enjoying “pleasures of sin” is an apparent THREAT of postmortem purgatory… astounding to say the least! So… remove your threat and in your opinion, all bets are off — how shallow a faith!?

Origen; wrote:Then at death be instantly transferred to endless heaven. IOW eat your cake & have it too.

This also demonstrates the self-same sour grapes attitude reflected in Mt 20:10-15. This just makes your ‘crucified flesh’ talk appear like vacuous religious rhetoric.

Origen; wrote:UU also seems to require ignoring a ton of Scripture. Well, unless you're a Pantelist or Preterist, perhaps. Even then.

To what “ton of Scripture” do you refer?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:48 pm

davo wrote:As a pantelist… I view “judgement” as pertinent to “rewards” and such pertinent to “works”. *Judgement* has NOTHING to do with one’s access to the presence of God postmortem, i.e., pantelism does not buy into the unbiblical doctrine of purgatory, regardless of whatever shade is being peddled.

In the synoptics Jesus ALWAYS tired judgement to works and their attendant rewards, or the lack thereof



Obviously i don't subscribe to Pantelism. Neither would i necessarily equate the after death salvation of the lost, their correction & associated sufferings of torments with a "purgatory" which has not been defined.

davo wrote:Let me be clear, I’m not making a case either way for the UU under discussion here, though I’d be leaning somewhat that direction. But your statement above is amazing! The ONLY motivation your Christian life has for not considering enjoying “pleasures of sin” is an apparent THREAT of postmortem purgatory… astounding to say the least! So… remove your threat and in your opinion, all bets are off — how shallow a faith!?


In my comment i stated what was "arguable". I didn't list any personal "motivations" let alone restrict them to just one as you have, davey. What are your motivations? Do they include a godly fear of after death torments? Or a godly fear of consequences in this life? You didn't rule out either.

davo wrote:To what “ton of Scripture” do you refer?


Dan.12:2, Jn.5:28-29, Rev.20:10-15 & many others.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:12 am

qaz wrote:Origen, your arguments sound exactly like arguments employed by ETs.

Is UU being believed because it's Scriptural, or because the flesh likes the idea of it


What a rotten thing to say.


I apologize if you found that offensive, qaz. Admittedly, ETs have argued much the same against UR in general or even annihilationism. A similar question could be asked of ETers.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:09 am

Origen; wrote:In my comment i stated what was "arguable". I didn't list any personal "motivations" let alone restrict them to just one as you have.

Well yeah you had me scratching my head, as they are the very arguments I’ve seen infernalists use against universalists… so I’m left wondering HOW you see the same working against what you see as UU?

Origen; wrote: Obviously i don't subscribe to Pantelism. Neither would i necessarily equate the after death salvation of the lost, their correction & associated sufferings of torments with a "purgatory" which has not been defined.

Well this below fits right in with views expressed by others here in EU: Purgatory
In Roman Catholic theology, Purgatory (Latin: Purgatorium, via Anglo-Norman and Old French) is an intermediate state after physical death in which some of those ultimately destined for heaven must first "undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," holding that "certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come."

This above pretty much falls right in line and IS in the ballpark of opinions expressed on this forum with regards to an apparent postmortem purification by fire, said to be God’s love, needed to qualify and purify one then for heaven… Catholics have merely given the doctrine a name.

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:To what “ton of Scripture” do you refer?


Dan.12:2, Jn.5:28-29, Rev.20:10-15 & many others.

Not quite the ton… and I’m not sure how you think they somehow stand against a pantelist reading? These were pertinent to Israel’s covenant renewal where SOME would indeed lose their lives in the end of the Mosaic world — BUT that is all it is — these texts don’t suggest any such purgatorial degree (as linked with the fiery purging arguments mooted in EU).
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:07 am

davo wrote:Well yeah you had me scratching my head, as they are the very arguments I’ve seen infernalists use against universalists… so I’m left wondering HOW you see the same working against what you see as UU?


Those arguments against universalism are invalid in light of its doctrine of "hell" as a deterrent against sinning in this life. The same cannot be said about UU which has no "hell". As i said:

UU would also, arguably, make the process of salvation in this life pointless. Why bother. Why not instead go & enjoy the "pleasures of sin"? Then at death be instantly transferred to endless heaven. IOW eat your cake & have it too.

In my comment i stated what was "arguable". I didn't list any personal "motivations" let alone restrict them to just one as you have, davey. What are your motivations? Do they include a godly fear of after death torments? Or a godly fear of consequences in this life? You didn't rule out either.

As for purgatory, how is that defined? Do Christians experience a purging by the fire of God's love in this life? If so, then why can't the same apply to those who spent their mortal lives in rebellion against Christ when they reach the afterlife? Except, due to their rebellion, it will be far worse than if they had surrendered to Him while alive. But there is nothing about the belief in afterlife correction with torments that necessarily implies any of the various definitions & descriptions of purgatory at your wikipedia link.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:22 am

davo wrote:

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:To what “ton of Scripture” do you refer?


Dan.12:2, Jn.5:28-29, Rev.20:10-15 & many others.

Not quite the ton… and I’m not sure how you think they somehow stand against a pantelist reading?


I specifically ruled out the Pantelist view that all Scripture has already been fulfilled, including the resurrections, lake of fire torments, Christ's return, all references to afterlife chastening, etc:

UU also seems to require ignoring a ton of Scripture. Well, unless you're a Pantelist or Preterist, perhaps.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:08 am

Origen; wrote:Those arguments against universalism are invalid in light of its doctrine of "hell" as a deterrent against sinning in this life. The same cannot be said about UU which has no "hell".

They are one and the same argument… your supposed chastening of fire, or however you want to float it, mean nothing to the infernalist, i.e., in their view you may as well have no hell.

Question: how well did your doctrine of hell resonate within you as a deterrent the last time you sinned, and the time before that — did your doctrine save you?

Pantelism accepts “hell… BUT understands its proper coinage as “gehenna” aka “the lake of fire” which historically speaking was the AD70 fall of Jerusalem. Like the Cross… a very literal event that carried and reflected the greater spiritual reality and significance — one reason why it also went by the moniker “the second death” — from which there was NO resurrection, i.e., the old covenant world breathed its last.

Origen; wrote:I didn't list any personal "motivations" let alone restrict them to just one as you have, davey. What are your motivations? Do they include a godly fear of after death torments? Or a godly fear of consequences in this life? You didn't rule out either.

My understanding is… consequences are pertinent to THIS LIFE to which to use your vernacular… “a ton of Scripture” refer; I’m sure you don’t need me to point them out. I have NO “fear of after death torments” for anyone. IF there be some degree of postmortem redress (which if I were God there would be) in the world to come relative to actions in the world left then the biblical text remains arguably silent, other than the potential for the loss of rewards; but even that is more specific to NT believers.

Origen; wrote:As for purgatory, how is that defined? Do Christians experience a purging by the fire of God's love in this life? If so, then why can't the same apply to those who spent their mortal lives in rebellion against Christ when they reach the afterlife?

Well with regards to postmortem there is NOTHING you can point to in the plain reading of scripture that requires such… any notion thereof has to be read into the text, but that is interpretive eisegesis not textual exegesis.

But let’s run with your scenario…Do Christians experience a purging by the fire of God's love in this life?” Well… to however it is you want to attribute HOW that actually works for believers, THEN to be consistent, just apply the same to those you designate as rebellious. So… how have YOU Origen experienced this “purging by the fire of God's love in this life”? What does it look like? Was it torturous of was it chastening? The SAME must likewise IF you be consistent, play out accordingly postmortem.

Origen; wrote:I specifically ruled out the Pantelist view that all Scripture has already been fulfilled, including the resurrections, lake of fire torments, Christ's return, all references to afterlife chastening, etc:

Well that’s your unproven assertion… fine to have but an assertion nonetheless — that’s not a cogent argument. Pantelism accepts that NOT one of Christ’s prophecies have failed, ALL have been fulfilled… God is all in all.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:44 am

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Those arguments against universalism are invalid in light of its doctrine of "hell" as a deterrent against sinning in this life. The same cannot be said about UU which has no "hell".

They are one and the same argument… your supposed chastening of fire, or however you want to float it, mean nothing to the infernalist, i.e., in their view you may as well have no hell.



How the "infernalist" (ECTers) understand things is irrelevant. The facts aren't changed by someone's opinion:

UU would also, arguably, make the process of salvation in this life pointless. Why bother. Why not instead go & enjoy the "pleasures of sin"? Then at death be instantly transferred to endless heaven. IOW eat your cake & have it too.

In my comment i stated what was "arguable". I didn't list any personal "motivations" let alone restrict them to just one as you have, davey. What are your motivations? Do they include a godly fear of after death torments? Or a godly fear of consequences in this life? You didn't rule out either.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:47 am

qaz wrote:Michael, it doesn't sound like that book has anything to do with ultra universalism. Please refrain from promoting books in this thread unless they are ultra universalist books.



Actually, the Course in Miracles, has some non-Christian concepts in it. That contradicts traditional Christian theology. See http://www.equip.org/article/a-course-in-miracles/. While I hope and pray, that all are saved...I'm agnostic, as to how it would probably be accomplished. So I leave it up to folks here - to formulate theological positions... on how it will be - or has been - accomplished. Which leaves me free, to argue for the upcoming zombie apocalypse - during the tribulation. And that God probably created, a flat earth in Genesis. Maybe a song, perhaps :D

And here's something, for folks to reflect upon. I still can't tie in, ultra-universalsim, Full Preterism and the Zombie apolalypse:


After all, it's a strange, strange world we live in. :lol:

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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:58 am

davo wrote:My understanding is… consequences are pertinent to THIS LIFE to which to use your vernacular… “a ton of Scripture” refer; I’m sure you don’t need me to point them out. I have NO “fear of after death torments” for anyone. IF there be some degree of postmortem redress (which if I were God there would be) in the world to come relative to actions in the world left then the biblical text remains arguably silent, other than the potential for the loss of rewards; but even that is more specific to NT believers.


Earlier you said:

davo wrote:Let me be clear, I’m not making a case either way for the UU under discussion here, though I’d be leaning somewhat that direction.


So to put several of your thoughts together:

1] You have no fear of after death torments for anyone, but
2] If you were God there would be postmortem redress, yet
3] You don't lean in that direction but lean against it, although
4] The biblical text remains arguably silent on the matter

Does that about sum it up? Or is there more, while i crunch on my popcorn ;
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:06 am

Origen; wrote:How the "infernalist" (ECTers) understand things is irrelevant. The facts aren't changed by someone's opinion:

UU would also, arguably, make the process of salvation in this life pointless. Why bother. Why not instead go & enjoy the "pleasures of sin"? Then at death be instantly transferred to endless heaven. IOW eat your cake & have it too.

Well clearly you yourself are just expressing an opinion — does it count, as likewise your opinion expressed above might well be wrong too :?:

Origen; wrote:In my comment i stated what was "arguable". I didn't list any personal "motivations" let alone restrict them to just one as you have, davey. What are your motivations? Do they include a godly fear of after death torments? Or a godly fear of consequences in this life? You didn't rule out either.

Given you are just lazily repeating yourself AND I have actually responded to and with pertinent questions… what are you afraid of, what stops you from attempting a genuine answer — are you afraid of committing yourself, or is this a case of… you just don’t know?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:27 am

davo wrote:But let’s run with your scenario…Do Christians experience a purging by the fire of God's love in this life?” Well… to however it is you want to attribute HOW that actually works for believers, THEN to be consistent, just apply the same to those you designate as rebellious. So… how have YOU Origen experienced this “purging by the fire of God's love in this life”? What does it look like? Was it torturous of was it chastening? The SAME must likewise IF you be consistent, play out accordingly postmortem.


You seem to be confounding the way or means of correction with the sufferings of correction which are related to duration & intensity. Clearly the latter varies from individual to individual in this life, as it will also in the life after death.

That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet.1:7)


davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:I specifically ruled out the Pantelist view that all Scripture has already been fulfilled, including the resurrections, lake of fire torments, Christ's return, all references to afterlife chastening, etc:

Well that’s your unproven assertion… fine to have but an assertion nonetheless — that’s not a cogent argument. Pantelism accepts that NOT one of Christ’s prophecies have failed, ALL have been fulfilled… God is all in all.


God is now "in all" (1 Cor.15:28) & this universe is the new heavens & new earth where there is no death or crying (Rev.21:1-4)?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:39 am

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:How the "infernalist" (ECTers) understand things is irrelevant. The facts aren't changed by someone's opinion:

UU would also, arguably, make the process of salvation in this life pointless. Why bother. Why not instead go & enjoy the "pleasures of sin"? Then at death be instantly transferred to endless heaven. IOW eat your cake & have it too.

Well clearly you yourself are just expressing an opinion — does it count, as likewise your opinion expressed above might well be wrong too :?:


The facts aren't a mere opinion:

Those arguments against universalism are invalid in light of its doctrine of "hell" as a deterrent against sinning in this life. The same cannot be said about UU which has no "hell".

davo wrote:Given you are just lazily repeating yourself AND I have actually responded to and with pertinent questions… what are you afraid of, what stops you from attempting a genuine answer — are you afraid of committing yourself, or is this a case of… you just don’t know?


What questions?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby davo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:55 am

Origen; wrote:You seem to be confounding the way or means of correction with the sufferings of correction which are related to duration & intensity. Clearly the latter varies from individual to individual in this life, as it will also in the life after death.

…as it will also in the life after death.And the Scripture/s actually verifying this :?:

Origen; wrote:God is now "in all" (1 Cor.15:28) & this universe is the new heavens & new earth where there is no death or crying (Rev.21:1-4)?

The death (2Cor 3:7, 11), sorrow and crying etc, are relics of the OC age i.e., the old creation… Christ brought in the new creation, i.e., the NC age aka “age to come” wherein righteousness dwells (2Pet 3:13).

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:Given you are just lazily repeating yourself AND I have actually responded to and with pertinent questions… what are you afraid of, what stops you from attempting a genuine answer — are you afraid of committing yourself, or is this a case of… you just don’t know?


What questions?

    1) So… how have YOU Origen experienced this… “purging by the fire of God's love in this life”?
    2) How well did your doctrine of hell resonate within you as a deterrent the last time you sinned, and the time before that — did your doctrine save you?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:35 am

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:You seem to be confounding the way or means of correction with the sufferings of correction which are related to duration & intensity. Clearly the latter varies from individual to individual in this life, as it will also in the life after death.

…as it will also in the life after death.And the Scripture/s actually verifying this :?:


I'm too lazy to look them all up now & about to crash too. So for the moment i'll just give you chapter 7 verse 77 of Common Sense which says regarding the afterlife correction: The sufferings of teenagers will not be as harsh as that of Hitler or Satan.

Edit: One Scripture passage is Mt.11:20-24. See also Heb.10:29, Rom.2:5-6. Compare Lk.12:47-48; James 3:1.


The death (2Cor 3:7, 11), sorrow and crying etc, are relics of the OC age i.e., the old creation… Christ brought in the new creation, i.e., the NC age aka “age to come” wherein righteousness dwells (2Pet 3:13).


So is crying & death over or still happening?


Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:Given you are just lazily repeating yourself AND I have actually responded to and with pertinent questions… what are you afraid of, what stops you from attempting a genuine answer — are you afraid of committing yourself, or is this a case of… you just don’t know?


What questions?

    1) So… how have YOU Origen experienced this… “purging by the fire of God's love in this life”?
    2) How well did your doctrine of hell resonate within you as a deterrent the last time you sinned, and the time before that — did your doctrine save you?

1) What relevance does this have to the topic?
2) God only knows. Are you suggesting that the consequences of breaking laws are not a deterrent? What do children do when there is no "law of the cookie jar"?
Last edited by Origen; on Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:42 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:39 am

Origen:
I apologize if you found that offensive, qaz. Admittedly, ETs have argued much the same against UR in general or even annihilationism. A similar question could be asked of ETers.


I accept your apology, but I still want to elaborate. All universalists are disturbed at the thoughts of people suffering forever. My compassion compels me to go a step further, and be disturbed by the thought of people suffering for any duration postmortem. The idea of someone dying of cancer, or someone being murdered, or dying in a car accident, and then suffering more because they hadn't reached 100% spiritual purity on Earth, is too unpleasant for me to believe. Compassion, not "flesh".
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Bob Wilson » Thu Dec 07, 2017 7:34 am

maintenanceman wrote:Bob, read the book I recommended to qaz. I think you will at least start to see a different view.


Chad, I have read and enjoyed Elizabeth Kubler Ross, but I don't see her as conversant with evangelicalism or the N.T., and she doesn't change my reading of it at all.

qaz wrote:I keep in touch through email with Geoffrey. He's really helped me believe in UU's plausibility.

I don't know him, but would rather not seek an evaluation of the case through emails.

Finding that the making of books on almost any belief, has no end, I am baffled that so many here lay forth numerous contentions for U.U., but apparently know of nothing in print setting forth the case. Why would no one find that desirable or publishable?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:57 am

Bob Wilson wrote:Finding that the making of books on almost any belief, has no end, I am baffled that so many here lay forth numerous contentions for U.U., but apparently know of nothing in print setting forth the case. Why would no one find that desirable or publishable?


I have to agree. When I used to attend the Episcopal church...before it became too liberal...one priest publicly said, he was a universalist. But he also said, he had no idea ... how God would bring it about. If I were a convinced universalist... I would probably be agnostic... as to how , it would take place.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:10 am

Bob, Hosea Ballou might have been an UU. I don't know which book(s) he argues for it though.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Dec 07, 2017 10:42 am

Bob said:
Chad, I have read and enjoyed Elizabeth Kubler Ross, but I don't see her as conversant with evangelicalism or the N.T., and she doesn't change my reading of it at all.
Well, I'm not particularly evangelical in the classic sense and I feel the NT is fairly silent on the matter so her work doesn't change my reading of it at all either. So Ross, who had studied the NDE's and afterlife quite considerably, gives a fresh view of the subject that does bear the weight of science to some extent.

qaz wrote:
Ultra universalism is the belief that everyone will be immediately ushered into heaven when they die. Most universalists believe in postmortem punishment (or as they say, "correction"). UUs do not. Our forum member Geoffrey was an UU.


I would say this fits Ross' description of what happens at death to a 't' though if memory serves, I don't think she uses the word 'heaven' but I could be mistaken.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:02 pm

qaz wrote:
I accept your apology, but I still want to elaborate. All universalists are disturbed at the thoughts of people suffering forever. My compassion compels me to go a step further, and be disturbed by the thought of people suffering for any duration postmortem. The idea of someone dying of cancer, or someone being murdered, or dying in a car accident, and then suffering more because they hadn't reached 100% spiritual purity on Earth, is too unpleasant for me to believe. Compassion, not "flesh".


Compassion is a gift of God. However, as i see it, the amount of sufferings alone, like some sort of a purgatory, don't make anyone deserving of heaven or salvation. There were two suffering sinners on crosses beside Jesus at Golgotha, but only one of them turned to Him & received His salvation. Job suffered but did not turn his back on God, whereas his wife told him to "curse God & die".

If wicked people like Hitler were instantly turned into angels at death, then God is not respecting their free choice & forcing them into heaven by irresistible grace.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:34 pm

Origen:
Compassion is a gift of God. However, as i see it, the amount of sufferings alone, like some sort of a purgatory, don't make anyone deserving of heaven or salvation. There were two suffering sinners on crosses beside Jesus at Golgotha, but only one of them turned to Him & received His salvation. Job suffered but did not turn his back on God, whereas his wife told him to "curse God & die".

I don't think people deserve heaven. That would mean seeing it as something earned through meritorious behavior. Which I don't.

If wicked people like Hitler were instantly turned into angels at death, then God is not respecting their free choice & forcing them into heaven by irresistible grace.


I don't think it's necessarily as simple as God "forcing" people. Paul was converted instantly on the road to Damascus. I imagine God can change all people by imparting the correct knowledge to them, the way he did with Paul.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:17 pm

qaz wrote:
I don't think people deserve heaven. That would mean seeing it as something earned through meritorious behavior. Which I don't.


Yet you feel people who have suffered a certain amount should not have to suffer any more, but be let into heaven. That would imply that those who haven't suffered that much should be allowed to suffer some more, as in post mortem corrective sufferings.

The rich man in Lk.16:19-31 was not sent immediately to paradise, but to Hades' torments. During his life he had no compassion for Lazarus who was "covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores." OTOH the rich man "was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day". If you send him immediately to heaven at death without suffering anything, he gets to eat his cake & have it too. And what is the point to this life?


I don't think it's necessarily as simple as God "forcing" people. Paul was converted instantly on the road to Damascus. I imagine God can change all people by imparting the correct knowledge to them, the way he did with Paul.


Immediately sending people who died, such as the worst butchers in history, into heaven implies it will be done by the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace. Free will is ruled out if merely imparting knowledge is sufficient to save. Why would God use one method (free will) here and a different method (Calvinist grace) in the hereafter?

Paul was acting ignorantly & in unbelief. That's why he received mercy, Scripture says (1 Tim.1:13). OTOH, unlike Paul, many people die not in ignorance & unbelief, but in willful rebellion against God (Heb.10:26-7). Jesus says those who knew what was right & didn't do it will be punished more severely (Lk.12:47-48).

Paul says he was not disobedient to the heavenly vision. So did he have no free will to disobey or question or doubt it? Like the Pharisees did regarding Jesus' miracles, he could have attributed his experience to demons.

Arguably Paul was not saved on the road to Damascus, but later when he was in the city, & instructed to be baptized & call on the Lord, washing away his sins.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Bob Wilson » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:46 pm

Unlike what I sense from some, I tend to focus on U.U. in terms of whether it's exegetically convincing, not NDEs, or whether it's logical or desirable to me. But when considering what makes logical sense of reality, I tend to follow Origen's logic posted above. Years ago on this site, with some brilliant U.U. fellows, I argued that the prevalence of the process in the only existence I know of suffering, and learning and going through choices and consequences, leads me to wonder why a God who arranged this kind of experience would not have some continuity of this, in how he dealt with us beyond the existence we know well. The N.T. eschatological texts seem cryptic, and short of confidence about an existence we can't comprehend, but I think fit the assumption of some measure of continuity as well as the alternatives.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:04 pm

Origen; wrote:Yet you feel people who have suffered a certain amount should not have to suffer any more, but be let into heaven. That would imply that those who haven't suffered that much should be allowed to suffer some more, as in post mortem corrective sufferings.


Desert has nothing to do with it. I don't think there's anything a person could do to deserve immortality (that is, assuming immortality is a good thing, which I question, as you're aware). My position doesn't imply what you say it implies. The wage of sin is death. As long as that wage has been paid, I think any additional suffering is gratuitous. I don't find postmortem punishment for people who suffered little on earth any more palatable than postmortem punishment for people who suffered a lot on earth.

The rich man in Lk.16:19-31 was not sent immediately to paradise, but to Hades' torments. During his life he had no compassion for Lazarus who was "covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores." OTOH the rich man "was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day". If you send him immediately to heaven at death without suffering anything, he gets to eat his cake & have it too. And what is the point to this life?


I don't think the parable of the rich man and Lazarus has anything to do with teaching what happens when people die. I think it's a parable about the change in status between Jews and Gentiles in the new covenant age, which would occur (has occurred) on earth.

Immediately sending people who died, such as the worst butchers in history, into heaven implies it will be done by the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace.


No it doesn't. I imagine death changes a person's psyche more than anything that might happen during one's lifetime. The idea that death wouldn't have a profound impact on how a person sees himself and others is really quite absurd. You seem to think a person's character is essentially unchanged when he walks through death's doorway, that death doesn't faze a man. I find that premise utterly laughable. A person would realize in an instant how vulnerable he is and dependent on God's mercy.

Free will is ruled out if merely imparting knowledge is sufficient to save. Why would God use one method (free will) here and a different method (Calvinist grace) in the hereafter?


It's not calvinist grace in the hereafter. It's that circumstances alter a person's character. You seem to think postmortem punishment is a necessary circumstance to change a person's character. I think death is sufficient.
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:16 pm

qaz wrote:
I don't think the parable of the rich man and Lazarus has anything to do with teaching what happens when people die. I think it's a parable about the change in status between Jews and Gentiles in the new covenant age, which would occur (has occurred) on earth.



My point wasn't that the parable is literal or not. I had two separate points, as expressed in the last two sentences:

The rich man in Lk.16:19-31 was not sent immediately to paradise, but to Hades' torments. During his life he had no compassion for Lazarus who was "covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores." OTOH the rich man "was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day". If you send him immediately to heaven at death without suffering anything, he gets to eat his cake & have it too. And what is the point to this life?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby qaz » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:49 pm

Origen; wrote:If you send him immediately to heaven at death without suffering anything, he gets to eat his cake & have it too.


So what? Isn't what matters is that his character has become pure, not what he did in the past? You sound concerned about people getting their just deserts. Very infernalist of you.

And what is the point to this life?


It might have been impossible for creation to achieve lasting happiness without most of humanity growing experiencing of separation and death. Talbott says something similar in TILOG. What do YOU think is the point to this life?
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Re: ultra universalism

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:52 pm

qaz wrote:
Origen; wrote:Immediately sending people who died, such as the worst butchers in history, into heaven implies it will be done by the Calvinist doctrine of irresistible grace.


No it doesn't. I imagine death changes a person's psyche more than anything that might happen during one's lifetime. The idea that death wouldn't have a profound impact on how a person sees himself and others is really quite absurd. You seem to think a person's character is essentially unchanged when he walks through death's doorway, that death doesn't faze a man. I find that premise utterly laughable. A person would realize in an instant how vulnerable he is and dependent on God's mercy.



Jesus is the Savior. Not death. Death can't make a person a child of God, born again, or regenerated. Death can't transform the soul, renew the mind, or create a new heart. It can usher one into extreme fear, though, as men generally fear death, & Scripture says it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Men fear death & they fear the unknown, which is exactly what they'll be ushered into at death.

For the worst butchers of history to instantly be turned into perfect angels at death makes all the freewill choices in this life irrelevant.

How does someone who willfully hardened himself all life long in the most vile of sins suddenly do a 180 degree turn in a second?

Why would God even be interested in such a thing, when obviously His ways of working with man in this life are not like that?

Since God is not averse to allowing endless horrific sufferings in this life, evidently for a good purpose, why should anyone assume that the afterlife will not also involve sufferings?

If just entering the spirit world at death were transforming, how is it that the devil & demons remain unchanged in the same realm?
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