Revelation 21-22

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Revelation 21-22

Postby ScratchCat » Sun Jul 24, 2016 5:45 pm

I have a huge question. What eon is Revelation 21 and 22 talking about? I don't think it could be talking about the 5th eon(New Earth) because it says there is no death(Revelation 21:4)and as far as I know, during the 5th eon, some people are still dead. Also it says "It hath been done!"(Revelation 21:6) which I assume is is referring to the consummation. And remember, how can the consummation be happening if some people are still in the Lake of Fire(Revelation 21:8)? And if it is referring to the consummation then why can't everyone come in(Revelation 21:7, 21:27)? Please check out all the verses I have referenced here.

Please, please help me out. This is the stumbling block for me.

Thanks and many blessings!
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:42 am

John has a noted tendency to jump around a lot by topic instead of sticking to a chronological sequence, which makes interpreting RevJohn a lot harder. I think this can be simplified somewhat (if not totally because, again, we're talking about RevJohn after all ;) ) on a theory that he's mostly (but not in every example, e.g. the flashback comparison to the birth of Jesus, which on many theories he's comparing to the birth of the new church during the tribulation) jumping forward to reveal the end result and then going back to his chronological development.

On that theory, Rev 21-22 are typical. John starts by reassuring readers everything will turn out all right for everyone after all (since he's describing conditions that one way or another cannot be true for the situation of sin and punishment he'll be talking about, along with continuing evangelization, for the rest of the prophecy), and then goes back to talking (however literally or poetically or some combination) about what happens after the general resurrection of the good and the evil and the (start of the) lake of fire judgment. (I'm not sure what you mean by the 5th eon, but on this theory the millennium reign can have already happened before the general resurrection, briefly described in Rev 20, but described in a lot more detail in many OT prophecies.)

In regard to the consummation, the inspired authors have a demonstrable tendency (Paul being the typical demonstrative example) of emphasizing the assurance that something is going to happen by talking about it as though it already has happened in their present or even in their past. In a revelatory vision (or sequence of them in some theories), this tendency would naturally be ramped up. So things aren't actually finished yet, just like there is no more death yet (thus no more sin) and no more pain or sorrow yet (because sin and punishment are both continuing). But it's coming: from God's eternal present, He can see the end result in our future and so in an important way -- because God is omnipresently real at all points of our space-time history -- that future can be presently real to us, too, in God, and through our cooperative contact with God.
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:44 am

(There are of course other theories, and other members may chime in; giving a preteristic interpretation instead for example.)

(Also, welcome to the forum; and don't panic if your posts don't come through immediately at first: all new member posts go to the spamcatcher automatically for a little while. The system will eventually learn you're not a spambot and let you through.)
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby ScratchCat » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:50 am

Thank you JasonPratt. I will think about this :) .
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:21 pm

For a more general Restoration of All take on the book of Revelation, portions of Gregory MacDonald's (i.e. Robin A. Parry's) book The Evangelical Universalist: Second Edition can be read for free online, including chapter 5 re the book of Revelation, starting at page 106:


https://books.google.ca/books?id=cUVJAw ... ne&f=false
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:34 pm

ScratchCat wrote:I have a huge question. What eon is Revelation 21 and 22 talking about? I don't think it could be talking about the 5th eon(New Earth) because it says there is no death(Revelation 21:4)and as far as I know, during the 5th eon, some people are still dead.



Scripture tells of multiple [at least two] future eons in Eph.2:7; Rev.11:15 etc. If the millennial eon is the next eon of human history (following the return of Christ & the end of the present wicked eon), then what i will call the second death eon of the new earth would follow the millennial eon. When death is abolished (1 Cor.15:26), including the 2nd "death", then that eon would come to an end. That "end" (1 Cor.15:24) is when God becomes "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) even in all who were in Adam (1 Cor.15:22a) who will then be "in Christ" (1 Cor.15:22b).

One interpretation is "no more death" regards those of the context in Rev.21:1-4, namely the saved [the bride, v.2, 9] who were not cast into the second death [lake of fire] at the end of chapter 20. Rev.21:1-4 also tells us there will be no more pain. If the "no more death" & pain referred to the whole universe, then everyone would be saved after we were just told of those cast into the lake of fire in chapter 20, both human beings, Satan & the two others who were to be tormented "into the ages of the ages" (Rev.20:10-15). If everyone is saved, immortal & incorruptible by Rev.21:4, who are the healing leaves of Rev.22:2 for? And if all are already saved when the New Jerusalem comes down from heaven, why are we told there are the wicked "outside" of it (Rev.22:14-15)?

IMO death is not yet abolished (1 Cor.15:26) in what we see described in Revelation 20-22. Although it is implied by prophesy: "I am making all new" (Rev,21:5). And it is suggested by John's vision of universal salvation in Revelation 5:13. Death cannot be abolished while there is still the 2nd death and those dead in the lake of fire. ""Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

Revelation 22:1-5 says there will be no more curse & no more night [there]. If that were applicable universally, then it would be universal salvation. But the "leaves of the tree...for the healing of the nations" (v.2) may suggest otherwise. And that this "healing" is for those wicked outside the New Jerusalem whose gates are never shut. Thereby the nations, presumably of the unsaved, may be entering (21:24-26).

If no more night (Rev.21:5) were universal, then what does that say of those that were to be tormented "day & night" into "the ages of the ages" (Rev.20:10; 14:11)? That their torment only lasts as long as "night" exists?

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Sun Nov 12, 2017 12:16 am

WebersHome, post: 71978629, member: 398053 wrote:-
There will be no more death after the second death spoken of in Rev 20:11-15. However, according to the prophet Daniel (Dan 12:2) and according to the lord and master of Christianity (John 5:28-29) there is but one end-time resurrection allotted per person. So then, nobody will be coming back from the lake of brimstone seeing as how they will use up their one allotted end-time resurrection in order to face justice at the great white throne event.

The abolition of death simply means that nobody will ever have to die again, but it does not mean that many of those who die prior to the abolition of death won't stay dead; viz: just as those who died in the Flood stayed dead, so those on track to die in the lake of brimstone will also stay dead because death won't be abolished until after all is said and done at the great white throne event. (Rev 21:1-4)


I read Dan.12:2 & Jn.5:28-29, but nothing there spoke of just one, or only one, or "but one" end-time resurrection per person. Some people have been resurrected once already, died twice, will be resurrected a second time, could die a third time in the LOF, & nowhere does Scripture say people cannot be resurrected from the second death/LOF.

The abolishing of death (1 Cor.15:25-26) means an end to the death of those in the second death, which means their resurrection "in Christ" as per 1 Cor.15:22-28.

"Just as surely as the abolition of slavery entails freedom for those formerly enslaved, the abolition of death entails life for those formerly dead."

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign into the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15)

3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be within the city, and His servants will worship Him. 4 They will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of the sun; for the Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign into the ages of ages. (Rev.22:3-5)

The verses above indicate Christ & the saints shall be reigning "into the ages of the ages", including the millenial age & the age when the lake of fire (= the 2nd death) is abolished. But 1 Cor.15:25 says Christ's reign is UNTIL He has put all enemies under His feet. Since He is still reigning at the time of Revelation 20-22, all enemies are not yet under His feet. So neither can God yet be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:28) nor death [e.g. 2nd death] abolished.

So death is not abolished (1 Cor.15:26), since that is associated with the end of Christ's reign (v.25) & will not happen till He quits reigning. Also those humans who died a second death in the lake of fire, which is the second death, are still dead, so death is not yet abolished (v.26). As long as the second death remains & is not abolished, death is not abolished as per v.26.

Neither is "all rule and authority and power" yet nullified (1 Cor.15:24) by Revelation 21-22. There are still kings in the earth (Rev.21:24). There is still the throne of the Lamb & the saints reigning (22:3,5). So neither is death abolished or God "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28).

God cannot be "all in all" (1 Cor.15:28) while there are still those in the second death & those being tormented in the lake of fire (Rev.14:9-11; 19:20; 20:10).

In Revelation 22:2 we also have leaves that are for the healing of the nations. Who at this time would need healing? Those in the lake of fire.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

"The Prophets are full of similar teaching. Note Isaiah connecting the words of comfort and pardon to Israel with her having received 'double for all her sins' (Isa 40:1-2). So it is said, 'Zion shall be redeemed with judgment' (Isa 1:27)...this connection of judgment and salvation runs through the Bible....So in Ezekiel 24:13-14, it is said of Israel, 'You shall not be purged of your filthiness any more, till I have satisfied my fury upon you.'"

http://www.worksofmacdonald.com/thomas- ... -scripture

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!” All is not yet new while there are still those dead or suffering in the lake of fire.

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).


Oldmantook, post: 71937600, member: 394310 wrote:In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem.


That recalls some passages in the OT about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby horan » Sat Nov 18, 2017 6:47 am

I know this is not directly related to the original question about the enumeration of the eons, but I'm
looking for an answer. Will this present, current eon be brought to a close by literal fire?

2 Peter 3:10-13

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which
the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements
will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and
its works will be burned up. Since all these things are
to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you
to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening
the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens
will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt
with intense heat! But according to His promise we are
looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which
righteousness dwells."

I very doubtful that the destruction and burning up discussed
here is metaphorical, and it appears that it points to the
2nd coming of Christ and what happens to the balance of
living humanity who are not snatched up to be with Him
at that time.

Between the pouring out of the sixth and seventh plagues,
Jesus reminds us that he comes as thief; as it were, without
warning, unexpectedly, and He cautions us to keep our garments,
a figuration of Himself, lest we be found naked and ashamed.
He's told us:

Mathew 24:37-39

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of
the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the
flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in
marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, And
knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I don't think the "them" in this instance is a reference to
the eight in the ark but those left out of it.

And Paul writes:

1 Thessalonians 5:3

For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction
comes upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they
shall not escape.

I don't think this is a reference to 70 AD, because it wasn't sudden.

So, I think it's generally understood by regular users of this web site that
the Lake of Fire is symbolic of purification and cleansing of sin. But is
the transition between this, present age and the millennium delineated by
a literal destruction of life on earth by fire or some sort? I know that
many believe this, and I also tend in that direction, but I'm simply not
confident enough about it to make an assertion.
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby davo » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:09 pm

horan wrote:I know this is not directly related to the original question about the enumeration of the eons, but I'm
looking for an answer. Will this present, current eon be brought to a close by literal fire?

2 Peter 3:10-13

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which
the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements
will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and
its works will be burned up. Since all these things are
to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you
to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening
the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens
will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt
with intense heat! But according to His promise we are
looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which
righteousness dwells."

Just on this portion here, given it references destructive melting through the burning of intense heat… by my understanding it does indeed speak of the AD70 Parousia of Christ.

The “elements” in view are the vestiges of the old covenant worldpredominately “the law and all that was attached to it in terms of the Temple and priesthood etc. That “elements” were… *the rudimentary or basic principles of the old covenant system*. This understanding is seen in the use of the Greek word <στοιχεῖα> stoicheia and its use elsewhere in the NT of this very thing…
Gal 4:3-5, 9 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. … But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?
Col 2:8, 20 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. … Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations
Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

Clearly this bondage to regulations references Israel’s old covenant law, which as the Galatians passage shows some believers were returning, or as Paul says… “you turn again to” — this is another demonstration of the Hebraic roots of the early church throughout Asia Minor (Acts 15:21; 2:5). Thus Peter’s… “and the elements will melt with fervent heat” was prophetic of the forthcoming conflagrations that was to consume Jerusalem and Temple in AD70, bringing to naught the whole old covenant world mode of existence, as per Heb 8:13.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:18 pm

horan wrote:I know this is not directly related to the original question about the enumeration of the eons, but I'm
looking for an answer. Will this present, current eon be brought to a close by literal fire?

2 Peter 3:10-13

[snip]

I don't think this is a reference to 70 AD, because it wasn't sudden.

So, I think it's generally understood by regular users of this web site that
the Lake of Fire is symbolic of purification and cleansing of sin. But is
the transition between this, present age and the millennium delineated by
a literal destruction of life on earth by fire or some sort? I know that
many believe this, and I also tend in that direction, but I'm simply not
confident enough about it to make an assertion.



You'll get different views from members here on this site, including preterism, pantelism, premillennialism, etc. So some will say most or all prophesy has already been fulfilled, much of it in & near to 70 A.D.. Others will disagree.

The following opinion i offer as a mere opinion. It is commenting on 2 Peter 3 which you referred to above & quoted in your OP. The initial remark is on verse 8 before going on to say a few words about verse 10:

"8 Time, with God, has none of the limitations which it has with us. The events of a day are vivid in our minds for a brief period, then they vanish and are forgotten. We know nothing of the future. But past and future are alike to God. As the psalmist says, " A thousand years in Thy sight are as yesterday when it is past" (Ps.90:4). We can readily recall the record of the previous day. It seems but a brief space of time. So a thousand years seems to Him. Since Peter penned these words nearly two thousand years have passed and His promise to Israel is not yet fulfilled, but there are indications that the time is near."

"10 The day of the Lord, though it lasts for more than a thousand years, is treated as though its arrival is to be immediately followed by its end, in harmony with the preceding paragraph. It will come as a thief (1Thes.5:2). It will close with the great cataclysm (Un.20:11, 21:1) which ushers in the day of God, in the new creation. Two great convulsions divide the history of the heavens and the earth into three grand divisions. One is found at the forefront of revelation, this one is near its finish. The heavens and earth were destroyed by water (Gen.1:2). In the future this will be effected by fire. The past was a physical regeneration. The future will be a chemical re-creation. Water, in the form of seas, is found only on the present earth. It was not on, but about, the previous one. It will be absent in the third earth (Un.21:1). The changing character of the earth on which we live is due largely to the presence of water. It disintegrates the solid rocks. As glaciers, it grinds down the mountains. In streams, it washes the soil into the sea. This is undoubtedly a parable of the impermanent moral processes through which mankind is passing. The new earth will be unchanging, permanent. Having passed through the great crucible of the divine Alchemist, its stones will be precious gems, hard as flint, and indestructible. And this will also be a parable of the moral purity which has been purged by fire and abides. This chapter reveals the fact that the new creation will be the third earth and third heaven (2Co.12:2)."

http://concordant.org/expositions/conco ... persion-2/

I expect the above opinion is expounded upon in much more detail in the 107 volumes of UR magazine at:

http://concordant.org/unsearchable-riches/
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby horan » Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:14 am

Thank you both, davo and Origen for your thoughtful replies. I'll keep them in consideration, but I'm still unconvinced, because the question remains: When the Lord comes again, to fetch His elect from among both the dead and living, what immediately becomes of those who remain, billions of people? As I understand, the millennium ensues at this juncture. What is the status of the vast multitude of unsaved people during that interval? The narrative seems to make more sense if life on earth is destroyed by some sort of literal fire, Satan is bound because there is nobody to deceive until the time of the 2nd resurrection, when he is loosed again to deceive the nations.
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Nov 19, 2017 3:32 pm

horan wrote:Thank you both, davo and Origen for your thoughtful replies. I'll keep them in consideration, but I'm still unconvinced, because the question remains: When the Lord comes again, to fetch His elect from among both the dead and living, what immediately becomes of those who remain, billions of people? As I understand, the millennium ensues at this juncture. What is the status of the vast multitude of unsaved people during that interval? The narrative seems to make more sense if life on earth is destroyed by some sort of literal fire, Satan is bound because there is nobody to deceive until the time of the 2nd resurrection, when he is loosed again to deceive the nations.


Your question remains as you say...
When the Lord comes again, to fetch His elect from among both the dead and living, what immediately becomes of those who remain, billions of people?


If you will take a few moments to look at the Pantelism view, you will understand that that 'when the Lord comes' has already happened. So now the idea of unsaved people, earth destroyed, doom and gloom crap you may understand a different view. Here is the link :D http://www.pantelism.com/

Good luck.
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Sun Nov 19, 2017 4:11 pm

horan wrote:Thank you both, davo and Origen for your thoughtful replies. I'll keep them in consideration, but I'm still unconvinced, because the question remains: When the Lord comes again, to fetch His elect from among both the dead and living, what immediately becomes of those who remain, billions of people? As I understand, the millennium ensues at this juncture. What is the status of the vast multitude of unsaved people during that interval? The narrative seems to make more sense if life on earth is destroyed by some sort of literal fire, Satan is bound because there is nobody to deceive until the time of the 2nd resurrection, when he is loosed again to deceive the nations.


I don't know if this will help, but i found this article was quite reasonable, well written & informative:

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/p ... ndrys-view
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby horan » Sun Nov 19, 2017 6:58 pm

Origen; wrote:
horan wrote:Thank you both, davo and Origen for your thoughtful replies. I'll keep them in consideration, but I'm still unconvinced, because the question remains: When the Lord comes again, to fetch His elect from among both the dead and living, what immediately becomes of those who remain, billions of people? As I understand, the millennium ensues at this juncture. What is the status of the vast multitude of unsaved people during that interval? The narrative seems to make more sense if life on earth is destroyed by some sort of literal fire, Satan is bound because there is nobody to deceive until the time of the 2nd resurrection, when he is loosed again to deceive the nations.


I don't know if this will help, but i found this article was quite reasonable, well written & informative:

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/p ... ndrys-view


Thank you Origen. The author you've referred me to says this at the very end of his argument:

"When Christ comes, the times of the Gentiles will be over, and all the Gentiles will be gathered before Him for judgment. Those found worthy will enter the Davidic, messianic, millennial Kingdom, while those who rejected Christ will be put to death. What an awesome and sobering day that will be!"

I'm going to study his essay more closely, and I don't know if his arguments will settle this issue for me, but that last paragraph might as well be a paraphrase of my concern, though I'm ignoring the Jew/Gentile distinction. No doubt all will be saved, eventually, but I'm doubtful that justifies a laissez-faire attitude toward the matter. I'm quite satisfied to say that I don't know what the experience will be like for those given to the post-millennial lake of fire judgment. I don't believe there is any detail provided except that Satan is loosed again, such that it appears that there's a continued, apparent battle for the hearts and minds of people. And if it can't be nailed down, I may need to be satisfied with saying I don't know about what happens to billions of people who are not raised up at the Lord's 2nd coming. But there does appear to be indication of their immediate fate, albeit scattered and perhaps not delineated with perfect clarity. Doom and gloom? Except for a few exceptions, what else is the story of humanity but this? Why should it surprise anybody if the immediate state of the world on the great and terrible day of the Lord is gloomy? But I'm still unsure. Thanks for the link.
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:53 pm

horan wrote:
Origen; wrote:I don't know if this will help, but i found this article was quite reasonable, well written & informative:

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/p ... ndrys-view


Thank you Origen. The author you've referred me to says this at the very end of his argument:

"When Christ comes, the times of the Gentiles will be over, and all the Gentiles will be gathered before Him for judgment. Those found worthy will enter the Davidic, messianic, millennial Kingdom, while those who rejected Christ will be put to death. What an awesome and sobering day that will be!"



This article appears to concur re the death of unbelievers:

"The judgment consists in putting to death all the rebels or unbelievers, leaving only the believers to enter the promised land."

"...The goats are bereft of this, and speak of the unrepentant, who did not respond to Christ’s messengers.”6 The result of the judgment of the Gentiles is the purging of all unbelievers, with the believers, who are thereby left, granted the privilege of entrance into the kingdom."

https://bible.org/seriespage/premillenn ... -continued

Similarly Waalvord says:

"Jesus declares that the contempt, hatred, and murderous rage people had against his followers (brethren) during the tribulation is justification for the death penalty..."

"...This particular judgment is for death in that they have no role to fulfill in the 1,000 year kingdom."

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/ ... ew-2531-46

"Major proponents: John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, Louis Sperry Chafer, J. Dwight Pentecost, Norman Geisler, Charles Stanley, Chuck Smith, and Chuck Missler."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby horan » Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:49 pm

Origen; wrote:
horan wrote:
Origen; wrote:I don't know if this will help, but i found this article was quite reasonable, well written & informative:

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/p ... ndrys-view


Thank you Origen. The author you've referred me to says this at the very end of his argument:

"When Christ comes, the times of the Gentiles will be over, and all the Gentiles will be gathered before Him for judgment. Those found worthy will enter the Davidic, messianic, millennial Kingdom, while those who rejected Christ will be put to death. What an awesome and sobering day that will be!"



This article appears to concur re the death of unbelievers:

"The judgment consists in putting to death all the rebels or unbelievers, leaving only the believers to enter the promised land."

"...The goats are bereft of this, and speak of the unrepentant, who did not respond to Christ’s messengers.”6 The result of the judgment of the Gentiles is the purging of all unbelievers, with the believers, who are thereby left, granted the privilege of entrance into the kingdom."

https://bible.org/seriespage/premillenn ... -continued

Similarly Waalvord says:

"Jesus declares that the contempt, hatred, and murderous rage people had against his followers (brethren) during the tribulation is justification for the death penalty..."

"...This particular judgment is for death in that they have no role to fulfill in the 1,000 year kingdom."

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/ ... ew-2531-46

"Major proponents: John Walvoord, Charles Ryrie, Louis Sperry Chafer, J. Dwight Pentecost, Norman Geisler, Charles Stanley, Chuck Smith, and Chuck Missler."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm


I wonder if any further justification would be necessary for destruction, death already being our natural destiny. Isn't it a sort of closure, since all who have physically died or will die await a resurrection?

While they certainly play a role in world affairs, I'm very doubtful that the Jews have any particular role to play with regard to end-times events. I think Israel is now a term that applies to the faithful in Christ, Jew or Gentile.

So much of what otherwise very bright people have to say is tainted with eternal damnation. But I think the simplest, most straight forward reading, maintaining gospel integrity, has Jesus coming to fetch His elect just before all else is destroyed. which has already been the fate of all humanity since expulsion from the garden; which is to say, death. And I don't think all those people have a millennial role to play.

I don't know why so many denominations and scholars insist that the 1,000 years transpires on earth. Where does it say this? Or what is used to derive this? It seems more logical to assume otherwise, since after the 1,000 years have passed we see the Holy City descending, which I suspect is symbolic of the elect in Christ. I suspect the elect spend 1,000 years in heaven, or some celestial state, likely preparing, being prepared for their role in the ongoing, post-millennial salvation story, else what is the purpose of this interval? Satan is bound during the 1,000 years, which makes perfect sense if there is nobody alive on earth to deceive, while he is loosed again to deceive the nations once the 1,000 years are over and the rest of the dead resurrected. The story is rendered so simply like this.

I suspect that when the Lord comes again to fetch His faithful to Himself, from among both the dead and the living, the world will subsequently go stark, raving mad, the truth having been plainly revealed to so many being also excluded from its blessing. It would't surprise me if the world destroys itself, with the apparent cause being man himself. Though all will ultimately be reconciled to God, this to me, if true, is nonetheless a very sobering thought and, if true, ought to be an integral part of the Universal Salvation narrative. Ultimately there will be no more tears, which is not to say there won't be a great many between now and then.
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:04 pm

horan wrote: I don't know why so many denominations and scholars insist that the 1,000 years transpires on earth. Where does it say this? Or what is used to derive this? It seems more logical to assume otherwise, since after the 1,000 years have passed we see the Holy City descending, which I suspect is symbolic of the elect in Christ. I suspect the elect spend 1,000 years in heaven, or some celestial state, likely preparing, being prepared for their role in the ongoing, post-millennial salvation story, else what is the purpose of this interval?


Revelation 20:7-9 seems to imply that the earth will be populated with both saints & sinners at the end of the millennium. Revelation 5:10 speaks of saints reigning on earth. There could conceivably also be saints in heaven at the same time.

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev.20:4)

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev.20:6)

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Rev.5:10)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Rev.20:7-9)

Waalvord puts forth his case for a millennial kingdom on earth:

https://bible.org/seriespage/4-millenni ... rnal-state

At the following site his view is called Dispensational Premillennialism which is distinguished from Historical Premillennialism. The former "views [the] church and Israel as two distinct identities with two individual redemptive plans." The latter says the "church is the fulfillment of Israel."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:36 pm

"Question: "Who will occupy the Millennial Kingdom?" ":

https://www.gotquestions.org/millennial-kingdom.html

"What is the purpose of the thousand-year reign of Christ?":

https://www.gotquestions.org/thousand-y ... hrist.html
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby horan » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:34 pm

Origen; wrote:
horan wrote: I don't know why so many denominations and scholars insist that the 1,000 years transpires on earth. Where does it say this? Or what is used to derive this? It seems more logical to assume otherwise, since after the 1,000 years have passed we see the Holy City descending, which I suspect is symbolic of the elect in Christ. I suspect the elect spend 1,000 years in heaven, or some celestial state, likely preparing, being prepared for their role in the ongoing, post-millennial salvation story, else what is the purpose of this interval?


Revelation 20:7-9 seems to imply that the earth will be populated with both saints & sinners at the end of the millennium. Revelation 5:10 speaks of saints reigning on earth. There could conceivably also be saints in heaven at the same time.

And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (Rev.20:4)

Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. (Rev.20:6)

You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." (Rev.5:10)

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (Rev.20:7-9)

Waalvord puts forth his case for a millennial kingdom on earth:

https://bible.org/seriespage/4-millenni ... rnal-state

At the following site his view is called Dispensational Premillennialism which is distinguished from Historical Premillennialism. The former "views [the] church and Israel as two distinct identities with two individual redemptive plans." The latter says the "church is the fulfillment of Israel."

https://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/mill.cfm


Thank you Oregin. At least in part you've answered my question concerning where the assertion comes from that the millennial reign transpires on earth. It does appear to me that post-millennial events transpire on earth, which I believe are described in Revelation 20, but I don't I see how it might be construed that revelation 5:10 describes the state of anything during the millennium. We can just as easily assert that Revelation 5 is a presentation of Christ's victory which will be ultimately consummated on earth, as in Revelation 20. There's nothing in Revelation 5 that indicates any reference to a time frame or a sequence of events in time. Christ's victory is simply presented as fait accompli. Since a new heaven and earth are promised, why should Revaluation 5, and the chapter before it, be read as more than an affirmation of that promise, as else but a formal acknowledgement of Christ's finished work on the cross?

Still, both the faithful dead and living rise to meet the Lord in the air at His 2nd coming, and after the millennium the Holy City descends. To me there seems to be a first up and then down movement suggested by this, with the millennium sandwiched in between, during which time Satan is bound. Whether you agree or not, I'm fairly sure you understand my point such that I needn't belabor it. If all else but the faithful in Christ, His elect, is destroyed with His 2nd coming, Satan would indeed be bound, rendered impotent, until the rest of the dead are raised after the 1,000 years are finished, when Satan is loosed again to deceive.
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Re: Revelation 21-22

Postby Origen; » Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:18 pm

horan wrote:Thank you Oregin. At least in part you've answered my question concerning where the assertion comes from that the millennial reign transpires on earth. It does appear to me that post-millennial events transpire on earth, which I believe are described in Revelation 20, but I don't I see how it might be construed that revelation 5:10 describes the state of anything during the millennium. We can just as easily assert that Revelation 5 is a presentation of Christ's victory which will be ultimately consummated on earth, as in Revelation 20. There's nothing in Revelation 5 that indicates any reference to a time frame or a sequence of events in time. Christ's victory is simply presented as fait accompli. Since a new heaven and earth are promised, why should Revaluation 5, and the chapter before it, be read as more than an affirmation of that promise, as else but a formal acknowledgement of Christ's finished work on the cross?

Still, both the faithful dead and living rise to meet the Lord in the air at His 2nd coming, and after the millennium the Holy City descends. To me there seems to be a first up and then down movement suggested by this, with the millennium sandwiched in between, during which time Satan is bound. Whether you agree or not, I'm fairly sure you understand my point such that I needn't belabor it. If all else but the faithful in Christ, His elect, is destroyed with His 2nd coming, Satan would indeed be bound, rendered impotent, until the rest of the dead are raised after the 1,000 years are finished, when Satan is loosed again to deceive.


Horan, perhaps you would elaborate, as I'm not clear what your point is. If the saints are not on earth during the millennium, & everyone else alive on earth was killed at His second coming, then won't the earth be empty during the 1000 years? Then who will Satan deceive in an empty earth when he is loosed? There will be no one there to deceive. The people of the second resurrection won't be there, since that occurs after Satan is cast into the lake of fire.

One viewpoint is the saints meet/join the Lord in the air. And thereafter together, at His second coming, they arrive on earth. And thereafter follows judgement & His millennial rule on earth together with the saints, who are immortal, & the rest of the saved (converted after the rapture) who are mortal and populate the earth during the 1000 years.

It seems to me that Revelation 5 refers to a future reign of the saints on earth & when we flip to the future & chapter 20 we see the saints reigning during the entire millennium. Apparently on earth. Revelation 22:5 also speaks of them reigning, even for the "eons of the eons". Evidently in the city New Jerusalem which descends down from heaven. Is it stated anywhere whether or not this city lands on, or hovers above, the earth?

Waalvord lists many OT passages he claims refer to a millennial kingdom on earth:


Major Features of the Millennial Kingdom

An earthly kingdom. The premillennial interpretation of the reign of Christ holds that He will reign on earth for one thousand years after His second advent. This is in contrast to the amillennial view which identifies the millennium with the present church age or the intermediate state, and the postmillennial view which views the kingdom as also in the present age and climaxing with the second advent. If the premillennial interpretation is correct and we can understand the Scriptures relating to this kingdom in their normal literal sense, a panorama is unfolded in both the Old and New Testaments which gives us many details of this reign of Christ on earth. Its general characteristics are unfolded in such passages as Isaiah 2:1-4; Isaiah 11; Psalm 72; Jeremiah 23:5-8; 31:31-40 ; Ezekiel 37; Daniel 2:44-45; 7:13-14 ; Micah 4:1-8; 5:2-5 ; Zechariah 14. The outstanding New Testament passage is Revelation 20.

Christ as supreme Ruler of the millennial kingdom. According to Psalm 2:6, God will fulfill His purpose of setting His Son on the throne over the earth, “Yet I have set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.” As king over all the earth, Christ will fulfill hundreds of prophecies that anticipate such a situation.

The Scriptures present Christ in His first coming as a king (Luke 1:32-33; Matt 1:1; 21:1-11 ). It was in His offer to Israel as their king that He was rejected (Mark 15:12-13; Luke 19:14). Even His cross bore the inscription that He was the King of the Jews (Matt 27:37). When He returns to the earth in His second coming, He obviously will be coming as King (Rev 19:16) and will fulfill the promise given to David that of his seed would come one who would reign on the throne forever (2 Sam 7:16; Ps 89:20-37; Isa 11:1-9; Jer 23:5-6; 33:14-26 ).

The evidence in support of the concept that Christ will reign on earth is so abundant that only by wholesale spiritualization can these passages be construed to mean anything other than their ordinary meaning. The characteristics of the reign of Christ are plainly set forth in many passages, such as Isaiah 11, and the New Testament confims the literal interpretation. The announcement to Mary, for instance, concerning the birth of Christ plainly interprets these prophecies in their literal sense. In Luke 1:32-33 the angel announced the birth to Mary in these words: “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Most High: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.” All of the references previously cited in support of the earthly rule of Christ likewise are proof texts for the fact that Christ will reign over the earth. Associated with Him in His reign will be resurrected saints of all ages, some of whom, like David, will have a particular rule (Isa 55:3-4; Jer 30:9; 33:15-17 ; Ezek 34:23-24; 37:24-25 ; Hos 3:5; Amos 9:11). The church likewise will reign with Christ as will also all the tribulation saints who have been martyrd (2 Tim 2:12; Rev 20:4-6). Numerous other passages confirm this concept of Christ’s reigning assisted by other rulers, some of whom may be resurrected saints (Isa 32:1; Ezek 45:8-9; Matt 19:28; Luke 19:12-27.)


continued at:

https://bible.org/seriespage/4-millenni ... rnal-state
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
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