Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

General posts on Evangelical Universalism.

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Eaglesway » Fri Dec 09, 2016 6:52 pm

Yes LLC, I do believe we can feel it in our conscience, and see it witnessed in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit has come to lead us and guide us into all truth. But the core of that truth is Jesus, the Way, the Truth and the Life, and the mystery of that truth is Christ in me, the hope of glory. So the manifestation of that truth is the expression of the divine nature trhough us.

It is good solid doctrine to focus on that, and imo it is the foundational reason we have confidence in the salvation of all- that is the nature of God, to save all; the testimony of the scriptures is that He is saving all through Christ crucified- the prime evidence that God is love.

So the word of God is that witness, in essence. When it is taken as a source foe jots and tittles of doctrine and focused on knowledge it wanders, in spirit- outside the boundaries of the true knowledge of God. When it is founded on, and focused on that essence, it is living and active.

But "Christians" disagree on so much, and spend so much time on these circular arguments about the same subjects of preipheral doctrine, I wonder at the source of the strife and division.

Who among you is wise and understanding? Let him show by his good behavior his deeds in the gentleness of wisdom. 14 But if you have bitter jealousy and selfish ambition in your heart, do not be arrogant and so lie against the truth. 15 This wisdom is not that which comes down from above, but is earthly, natural, demonic. 16 For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there is disorder and every evil thing. 17 But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, reasonable, full of mercy and good fruits, unwavering, without hypocrisy. 18 And the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.James 3
Eaglesway
 
Posts: 940
Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 7:01 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:49 am

St. Michael wrote:All the mystics I have read, Sufi, Hindu, Roman Catholic all say that union is achieved though meditation and contemplation.


I've enjoyed reading a few that i suppose could be called mystics, including a Mme Guyon & St Francis de Assisi. My favorite might be Benny Hinn:

Benny Hinn - Practices for "Waiting on the Lord":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvL17LQUYpY

Benny Hinn Worship Collection with Lyrics - Atmosphere for Miracles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEiYdeM0ysU

Benny Hinn Crusade India:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfmRYzyq5TI

As for Sufi & Hindus, i'm not sure what Hinn would think. Maybe that they are "devils", as he called people's co-workers in a message re prayer.
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Sep 27, 2017 3:40 am

Origen; wrote:As for Sufi & Hindus, i'm not sure what Hinn would think. Maybe that they are "devils", as he called people's co-workers in a message re prayer.


And I would put more faith, in what Catholic theology says...Regarding other religions and faith traditions - since Vatican II...Then what Benny Hinn has to say - regarding these matters.

Image

Actually, I would put more trust and faith - in authentic Sufi and Hindu mystics - then I would in Benny Hinn :lol:

I think that the summary of this tread - is this

    If no free will and universalism are both true...Then God won't be able to distinguish, between us and the Zombie population... :lol:

    And there will be folks, trying to sell ice cream to Eskimos - during the winter. :lol:

Image

    And God prefers stage shows and stage theatrics - via Benny Hinn...Rather then deal with "real" healers - whether Christian or otherwise. :lol:

Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:10 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Origen; wrote:As for Sufi & Hindus, i'm not sure what Hinn would think. Maybe that they are "devils", as he called people's co-workers in a message re prayer.


And I would put more faith, in what Catholic theology says...Regarding other religions and faith traditions - since Vatican II...Then what Benny Hinn has to say - regarding these matters.



What do the Scriptures & Early Church Fathers have to say about that?

I'm quite sure Benny could back his view with both Scripture & the Early Church Fathers, though i've never heard him refer to the latter.
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:01 pm

Origen; wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
Origen; wrote:As for Sufi & Hindus, i'm not sure what Hinn would think. Maybe that they are "devils", as he called people's co-workers in a message re prayer.


And I would put more faith, in what Catholic theology says...Regarding other religions and faith traditions - since Vatican II...Then what Benny Hinn has to say - regarding these matters.



What do the Scriptures & Early Church Fathers have to say about that?

I'm quite sure Benny could back his view with both Scripture & the Early Church Fathers, though i've never heard him refer to the latter.


Scripture does support the inclusivist position (which we shall see shortly). See


According to inclusivism (sometimes called “the faith principle”), Jesus is the particular savior of the world, but people can benefit from the redemptive work of Christ even though they die never hearing about Christ—if they respond in faith to God based on the revelation God has given them

The inclusivist position has a long and distinguished history in the church. Such widely divergent thinkers as Justin, Thomas Aquinas, John Wesley, C. S. Lewis, and Pope John Paul II have affirmed it.[40] Today, it is the dominant view of the Roman Catholic Church and of mainline Protestants. Though the Eastern Orthodox Church has no officially sanctioned position, the inclusivistic views of Justin and other Greek fathers are widely cited with approval and many of the arguments for inclusivism are employed.[41] Inclusivism represents the closest thing to a consensus among Christians today.


There is a couple good articles, arguing the Protestant Biblical perceptive at:


Also see:

\

Therefore, if God knew our people would live in the North American continent and He knew we would not receive the written Word (Bible) until after 1492 AD, is it reasonable to think He would’ve neglected to reveal Himself to our people for thousands of years? Of course not! Romans 1:19-20 states, “since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – His eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

So, if God knew He would place our people on this continent AND He planned on revealing Himself to us, then we must also agree with Peter when he said “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right” (Acts 10:34-35, NIV). This is confirmed again when John said “after this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb” (Revelation 7:9, NIV).


Notice that inclusivims is NOT puralism. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclusivism and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralism

Just so we are talking apples and apples. Or oranges and oranges. And not confusing apples with oranges. :lol:

More on any "dialogue" tomorrow. As I have a full plate, today and this evening. :D

Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:40 pm

Benny Hinn proclaims Jesus as the only Way to God & chastises an unnamed pastor who appeared on Larry King:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azqoBksweZA

The unnamed pastor is alleged to be Joel Osteen:

http://undeception.com/how-did-i-miss-t ... smackdown/

Comments by Osteen on Larry King show re Jesus & other religions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH4p9CmREls

Critique of Osteen's comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMl2iGKfThY

Osteen says there are many paths to Jesus Who is the Way to God:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weEWl52wevI

Which begs the question, what are these alleged "many paths"? Do they involve His grace & faith in Him & the gospel:

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Are religions that call Christ a false teacher "paths to Jesus"?

Are beliefs that deny or doubt the existence of God a path to God?

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. (Heb.11:6)

The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. (Psa.14:1)

But according to Joel Osteen 99.9% of people are good:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mlhRd3AzR0
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:55 am

Origen; wrote:Benny Hinn proclaims Jesus as the only Way to God & chastises an unnamed pastor who appeared on Larry King:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... -ej7n7Nhns

The unnamed pastor is alleged to be Joel Osteen:

http://undeception.com/how-did-i-miss-t ... smackdown/

Comments by Osteen on Larry King show re Jesus & other religions:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YH4p9CmREls

Critique of Osteen's comments:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMl2iGKfThY

Osteen says there are many paths to Jesus Who is the Way to God:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weEWl52wevI

Which begs the question, what are these alleged "many paths"? Do they involve His grace & faith in Him & the gospel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mlhRd3AzR0


I don't know about Osteen's comments - on these matters. And there are MANY who comment - on Hinn's fake healings and DUBIOUS financial dealings. And Osteen is more, of a Christian motivational speaker. Who lacks a theological training and degree. For that matter, i don't think Benny Hinn has any either. According to Wiki at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn. So BOTH should refrain from speaking on matters - where they lack qualifications.

Inclusivism is an established theological position. And it is only though Christ, that folks are saved. Whether they know if or not. And it is puralism, that says there are "many paths". Actually, there's not too much difference, in the inclusivist and universalist positions. Except for magnitude and number - of those saved.

If folks want to know more - from AUTHENTIC sources. They can go back and read the links - in my prior post. With the apples and oranges GIF.

Should I also provide articles, that call into question - Benny Hinn's fake healings and DUBIOUS financial dealings?

Image
Last edited by Holy-Fool-P-Zombie on Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:48 am

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:And Osteen is more, of a Christian motivational speaker. Who lacks a theological training and degree. For that matter, i don't thank Benny Hinn has any either. According to Wiki at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn. So BOTH should refrain from speaking on matters - where they lack qualifications.



The apostles of Jesus hadn't been to the Pharisees school for "a theological training and degree", but that didn't stop them from preaching & teaching the Christ, doing miracles & healings in His name, and writing the New Testament Scriptures:

Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13, NASB)
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:37 am

Origen; wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:And Osteen is more, of a Christian motivational speaker. Who lacks a theological training and degree. For that matter, i don't think Benny Hinn has any either. According to Wiki at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benny_Hinn. So BOTH should refrain from speaking on matters - where they lack qualifications.



The apostles of Jesus hadn't been to the Pharisees school for "a theological training and degree", but that didn't stop them from preaching & teaching the Christ, doing miracles & healings in His name, and writing the New Testament Scriptures:

Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. (Acts 4:13, NASB)


The apostles are gone. And much has occurred - since that time. Which needs folks trained in theology - to sort out. Or should we look to ordination mills, like the Universal Life Church? Where everyone can get a degree or an ordination? And preach the gospel, preform marriages, etc.? Which they can do legally - in the US - by the way. Like World Christianship Ministries.

And if folks do a Google search on "Benny Hinn fake", they will find plenty of articles - on page 1 alone. Is this someone folks should listen to and follow - as a "man of God"?

Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:20 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:And if folks do a Google search on "Benny Hinn fake", they will find plenty of articles - on page 1 alone. Is this someone folks should listen to and follow - as a "man of God"?

Some would say “folks” are free to spend (waste) their time and money on Benny Hinn… others might conclude they were predestined to. :lol:
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:17 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:
The apostles are gone. And much has occurred - since that time. Which needs folks trained in theology - to sort out.


The 12 are gone, but are apostles gone? And those that prophesy?

When will the divisions between theologians get sorted out?

Many look to those who speak with "power":

and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, (1 Cor.2:4)

18 I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. (Romans 15)

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
Last edited by Origen; on Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:25 pm

davo wrote:Well thanks for that clarification… I can categorically state I’m neither Calvinist nor Arminian. Humanity is able to respond to God BY VIRTUE OF Jesus Christ (Jn 14:6b) wherein the grace of God was wrought for all (Jn 1:14b)… IOW Jesus was the means by which humanity has been reconciled to God. Knowledge of and subsequent acknowledgment of by way of confession does NOT create this reality, i.e., it already is.

Confession and faith do not establish it but rather tap into to it in terms of service to God, aka “election” — something Calvin, in particular, erred in by dragging it out of the biblical context linking it to postmortem realities of apparent ‘heaven or hell’ instead of the antemortem reality of SERVICE to God. Some were called into the service of God, most weren’t. Those that were, were so ON BEHALF OF or for the benefit of the whole. That’s the biblical pattern of “the firstfruits” sanctifying the whole — the very thing Jesus and the apostles did ON BEHALF OF Israel (and those gentiles called into that ministry, as per the NT) which in consequence then led to the ultimate reconciling of the rest of the world.


If everyone is already reconciled to God, why should anyone care about topics like freewill, the moral abilities of unbelievers & how depraved man is? Why evangelize? Why read the Bible, pray, take up your cross & follow Jesus? Why not go live it up & part-ay!
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:51 am

Origen; wrote:Many look to those who speak with "power":

and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, (1 Cor.2:4)

18 I will not presume to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obedience by word and deed, 19 by the power of signs and wonders, and by the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ. (Romans 15)

1 Jn.2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.


And how will the common man, be able to sort out the messages - of those "speaking with power"? Especially if they are preaching contradictory messages? I've turned on many Pentecostal TV preachers (normally, they are black) and witnessed this first hand.

Let's look at an article, describing one of these "men of power" - you like:


Let me quote a bit - in part:

Those who want to make a ‘seed gift’ of £1,000 or more go down to the stage first. A trickle of about 15 people come forward for this first tier of giving. Then those who want to give £100 or more are invited, and a larger number of people start to make their way. Meanwhile, another member of Hinn’s team takes over, animatedly promising promotions, cars, and miracles in return for giving in faith. On Hinn’s command the buckets are passed along rows to take the rest of the offerings, accompanied by a rousing medley of songs about supernatural provision.

Essentially what took place is this: people in financial difficulty were told that if they gave as much as they could, then the magic wand of anointing would solve all their problems. Would there be thousands of debt-free Christians with new cars and better salaries by the next time the ministry came to town? Hinn made it sound like a certainty.


Well, none of the black TV Pentecostal preachers I've watched - said or did that. And I've never seen, TV evangelist Joel Osteen - say or do that.

And I observing an "apparent contradiction", between "men of power"?

Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 5:01 am

Origen; wrote:If everyone is already reconciled to God, why should anyone care about topics like freewill, the moral abilities of unbelievers & how depraved man is? Why evangelize? Why read the Bible, pray, take up your cross & follow Jesus? Why not go live it up & part-ay!

Why not get involved… there might be some chance of freeing some folks from much of the religious bondage that goes with so much of that.

Why evangelize?” — hmm maybe to let people know they’ve been reconciled. :shock:

Why read the Bible, pray, take up your cross & follow Jesus?” — that might be something some people feel let to do, so why not? :mrgreen:

Why not go live it up & part-ay!” — too many Christians live their lives like they’ve been baptised in lemon juice… Christians should be well able to live it up & part-ay! Like why not? 8-)
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:02 am

Davo:
“Why not go live it up & part-ay!” — too many Christians live their lives like they’ve been baptised in lemon juice… Christians should be well able to live it up & part-ay! Like why not? 8-)


What about 1 Corinthians 15:32? You don't see that as a condemnation of partying?
qaz
 
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:55 am

qaz wrote:Davo:
“Why not go live it up & part-ay!” — too many Christians live their lives like they’ve been baptised in lemon juice… Christians should be well able to live it up & part-ay! Like why not? 8-)


What about 1 Corinthians 15:32? You don't see that as a condemnation of partying?


1 Corinthians 15:32 New Living Translation

And what value was there in fighting wild beasts--those people of Ephesus--if there will be no resurrection from the dead? And if there is no resurrection, "Let's feast and drink, for tomorrow we die!"


Let's see what the Calvinist, Got Questions site - has to say:


In 1 Corinthians 15, the apostle Paul addresses those who do not believe in the resurrection of the dead when Christ returns (verse 12). Paul rebukes them, since, if there is no life after death, they may as well live according to “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die” (verse 32). At its root, the philosophy of “eat, drink, and be merry” is an expression of hopelessness. If this world is all there is, “we are of all people most to be pitied” (verse 19). Paul has harsh words for those who deny the raising of the dead: “Wake up from your drunken stupor, as is right, and do not go on sinning. For some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame” (verse 34, ESV).


For the Bible (just like any work of literature), you have to keep asking two questions:

    Who is the audience?
    What is the context, of a quoted portion?
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby qaz » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:12 am

Randy, with all due respect I don't care what the Calvinist site gotquestions has to say about anything.
qaz
 
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sat Oct 17, 2015 10:51 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:23 am

qaz wrote:Randy, with all due respect I don't care what the Calvinist site gotquestions has to say about anything.


Basically, they put the passage you quoted - into context. More often then not, folks here (and elsewhere), quote Bible verses out of context.

See Why is it important to study the Bible in context?

It's important to study Bible passages and stories within their context. Taking verses out of context leads to all kinds of error and misunderstanding. Understanding context begins with four principles: literal meaning (what it says), historical setting (the events of the story, to whom is it addressed, and how it was understood at that time), grammar (the immediate sentence and paragraph within which a word or phrase is found) and synthesis (comparing it with other parts of Scripture for a fuller meaning). Context is crucial to biblical exegesis in that it is one of its most important fundamentals. After we account for the literal, historical, and grammatical nature of a passage, we must then focus on the outline and structure of the book, then the chapter, then the paragraph. All of these things refer to "context." To illustrate, it is like looking at Google Maps and zooming in on one house.

Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:50 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:If everyone is already reconciled to God, why should anyone care about topics like freewill, the moral abilities of unbelievers & how depraved man is? Why evangelize? Why read the Bible, pray, take up your cross & follow Jesus? Why not go live it up & part-ay!

Why not get involved… there might be some chance of freeing some folks from much of the religious bondage that goes with so much of that.

Why evangelize?” — hmm maybe to let people know they’ve been reconciled. :shock:

Why read the Bible, pray, take up your cross & follow Jesus?” — that might be something some people feel let to do, so why not? :mrgreen:

Why not go live it up & part-ay!” — too many Christians live their lives like they’ve been baptised in lemon juice… Christians should be well able to live it up & part-ay! Like why not? 8-)


So it's all about this life, since there is no future or after death punishment?

Is the gospel according to davo: "You are reconciled. But whether or not you believe that in this life won't keep you from eternal life. All will enjoy eternal life anyway. Even serial killers will not be punished for how they've been in this life & get eternal life after they die."? Does that about sum it up?

Is there anything that would motivate people to take up their cross & follow Jesus besides "that might be something some people feel let to do, so why not?" It doesn't sound like that would matter. Does this matter:

1 Cor.6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:19 pm

Image

Tell me if I'm wrong, her lips are not saying 'it's out of context'
User avatar
maintenanceman
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:22 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby DaveB » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:38 pm

She is not saying the word 'Its' with her lips. That particular word does not need lippage.
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful:
The Lord God made them all.
DaveB
 
Posts: 4103
Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 3:07 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:53 pm

DaveB wrote:She is not saying the word 'Its' with her lips. That particular word does not need lippage.


:o
User avatar
maintenanceman
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:22 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:16 pm

Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Well, none of the black TV Pentecostal preachers I've watched - said or did that. And I've never seen, TV evangelist Joel Osteen - say or do that.

And I observing an "apparent contradiction", between "men of power"?



Do these "black TV Pentecostal preachers" teach the doctrine of "prosperity"?

Prosperity preachers like the Copelands, Wommack, the Hinns, Oral Roberts, Joseph Prince & many others claim to base their views on Scripture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:36 pm

You may simply be a troll, like gnostic bishop, to have your fun with us. You do not seem to react to council. :mrgreen:
User avatar
maintenanceman
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:22 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:30 pm

qaz wrote:Davo:
“Why not go live it up & part-ay!” — too many Christians live their lives like they’ve been baptised in lemon juice… Christians should be well able to live it up & part-ay! Like why not? 8-)


What about 1 Corinthians 15:32? You don't see that as a condemnation of partying?

Who’s to say that the partying Paul referred to is the ONLY partying there is. By virtue of the recognition God’s work in Christ i.e., reconciliation, “Christians” should be some of the most overtly “happy” (partying) people on the planet, thereby reflecting “the joy of the Lord” — but unfortunately we’ve learned it’s all about keeping a stiff upper lip and not cracking a smile because “we’re crucifying each day with Christ”. :shock: Give me a break… that’s nothing but false humility and a TOTAL turnoff by way of supposed “witness” — imHo.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:33 pm

Origen; wrote:So it's all about this life, since there is no future or after death punishment?

Salvation certainly is. As to postmortem… there may be some form of recompense (IF I were God there sure would be — lucky for all I’m not) but if there were it wouldn’t/doesn’t involve so-called burning in the “lake of fire”… that was John’s symbolic language equivalent with Jesus’ “gehenna” aka the destruction of Jerusalem of AD70. That was the terminus of the old covenant world, or as John also identifies it… “the second death” — there was to be NO RESURRECTION from Israel’s LoF, i.e., no resurrection of law-righteousness.

Origen; wrote:Is the gospel according to davo: "You are reconciled. But whether or not you believe that in this life won't keep you from eternal life. All will enjoy eternal life anyway. Even serial killers will not be punished for how they've been in this life & get eternal life after they die."? Does that about sum it up?

Well typically no but that pretty much reflect your level of understanding.

“Eternal life” is relational life with God in the HERE AND NOW, as per Jesus’ most distinct definition…
Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Notice with regards to “eternal life” Jesus states… “this isNOT “this will be” — He is speaking of PRESENT life realities.

Origen; wrote:Is there anything that would motivate people to take up their cross & follow Jesus besides "that might be something some people feel let to do, so why not?" It doesn't sound like that would matter. Does this matter:

Everyone has different motivations… what’s yours?

Origen; wrote:1 Cor.6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…

Yeah well, so you’ve quoted that without any comment… AND?
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:48 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:So it's all about this life, since there is no future or after death punishment?

Salvation certainly is. As to postmortem… there may be some form of recompense (IF I were God there sure would be — lucky for all I’m not) but if there were it wouldn’t/doesn’t involve so-called burning in the “lake of fire”… that was John’s symbolic language equivalent with Jesus’ “gehenna” aka the destruction of Jerusalem of AD70. That was the terminus of the old covenant world, or as John also identifies it… “the second death” — there was to be NO RESURRECTION from Israel’s LoF, i.e., no resurrection of law-righteousness.

Origen; wrote:Is the gospel according to davo: "You are reconciled. But whether or not you believe that in this life won't keep you from eternal life. All will enjoy eternal life anyway. Even serial killers will not be punished for how they've been in this life & get eternal life after they die."? Does that about sum it up?

Well typically no but that pretty much reflect your level of understanding.

“Eternal life” is relational life with God in the HERE AND NOW, as per Jesus’ most distinct definition…
Jn 17:3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Notice with regards to “eternal life” Jesus states… “this isNOT “this will be” — He is speaking of PRESENT life realities.

Origen; wrote:Is there anything that would motivate people to take up their cross & follow Jesus besides "that might be something some people feel let to do, so why not?" It doesn't sound like that would matter. Does this matter:

Everyone has different motivations… what’s yours?

Origen; wrote:1 Cor.6:9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.…

Yeah well, so you’ve quoted that without any comment… AND?


The 1 Cor.6 passage came with a question: "Does this matter"?
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:06 pm

Origen; wrote:The 1 Cor.6 passage came with a question: "Does this matter"?

Well, it could possibly matter in terms reigning in life or the lack thereof (Rom 5:17), which is WHAT Paul’s “inherit the kingdom” is all about. Anything that might frustrate the call of God to service could do that. Entering the Kingdom is not about anyone getting to Heaven… Jesus already took care of that, for all.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:18 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:So it's all about this life, since there is no future or after death punishment?

Salvation certainly is. As to postmortem… there may be some form of recompense (IF I were God there sure would be — lucky for all I’m not) but if there were it wouldn’t/doesn’t involve so-called burning in the “lake of fire”… that was John’s symbolic language equivalent with Jesus’ “gehenna” aka the destruction of Jerusalem of AD70. That was the terminus of the old covenant world, or as John also identifies it… “the second death” — there was to be NO RESURRECTION from Israel’s LoF, i.e., no resurrection of law-righteousness.



I suppose it might be hard to know what the future holds if one believes all prophesy has been fulfilled already:

"Pantelism, is a recent term in Christian eschatology that refers to what some see as an extension of Full Preterism. This view maintains that the Scriptures both prophetically and redemptively, were entirely fulfilled in the person and work of Christ and consummated at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. Accordingly, this consummation included not only Christ’s Second Coming, but the final judgment, the resurrection of the just and the unjust, and the reconciliation of all things. The unorthodox aspect of this view is that the reconciliation accomplished in 70 A.D was such that there no longer remains a lost condition in humanity and therefore no present need for conversion -- which reduces to a form of universalism where all are saved and one must simply realize what has been done for all humanity."

http://www.theopedia.com/pantelism

Does that sum up your viewpoint?

Is this your website:

http://pantelism.com/

If all prophesy was fulfilled by 70 A.D., when did the devil go into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)? Have the "ages of the ages" ended already:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

Do you disagree with the article above that there is "therefore no present need for conversion"? Your statement that there "there may be some form of recompense" post mortem seems to be at odds with that.
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:04 am

Origen; wrote:
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie wrote:Well, none of the black TV Pentecostal preachers I've watched - said or did that. And I've never seen, TV evangelist Joel Osteen - say or do that.

And I observing an "apparent contradiction", between "men of power"?



Do these "black TV Pentecostal preachers" teach the doctrine of "prosperity"?

Prosperity preachers like the Copelands, Wommack, the Hinns, Oral Roberts, Joseph Prince & many others claim to base their views on Scripture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology


There are two ways - to preach the prosperity gospel message:

    Give money to my TV ministry. And God will bless you, with health and prosperity.
    Listen to my message, about God blessing you - with health and prosperity.

Which one is the CORRECT" approach? If the health and prosperity gospel is true?

"Maturity is not when we start speaking big things. It is when we start understanding small things."-- Author Unknown


Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:55 pm

Concerning the woman who supposedly is saying, "It's out of context," I emailed the gif file to my sister-in-law who lost her hearing at a very early age. She has learned to read lips with expertise. I remember an older deaf man in our area who could also read lips readily, but there was one word he could not read, namely "taxi" in which not much happens to your face when you say it except your lower jaw drops and then rises again. However, I tried whispering "taxi" to my sister-in-law and she had no trouble at all with it.

Anyway, my sister-in-law said that "It's out of context" is EXACTLY what the woman in the gif file is saying.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
User avatar
Paidion
 
Posts: 4124
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: The Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Oct 16, 2017 2:57 pm

Paidion wrote:Concerning the woman who supposedly is saying, "It's out of context," I emailed the gif file to my sister-in-law who lost her hearing at a very early age. She has learned to read lips with expertise. I remember an older deaf man in our area who could also read lips readily, but there was one word he could not read, namely "taxi" in which not much happens to your face when you say it except your lower jaw drops and then rises again. However, I tried whispering "taxi" to my sister-in-law and she had no trouble at all with it.

Anyway, my sister-in-law said that "It's out of context" is EXACTLY what the woman in the gif file is saying.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
maintenanceman
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:22 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:09 pm

Randy said:
There are two ways - to preach the prosperity gospel message:

Give money to my TV ministry. And God will bless you, with health and prosperity.
Listen to my message, about God blessing you - with health and prosperity.
Which one is the CORRECT" approach? If the health and prosperity gospel is true?


I have to agree with you to a point.... But first of all 'prosperity' (and health) would have to be defined. :?

It comes down to is someone profiting from the gospel, or is the gospel being presented to help humanity. :D
User avatar
maintenanceman
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:22 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby steve7150 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:32 pm

If all prophesy was fulfilled by 70 A.D., when did the devil go into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10)? Have the "ages of the ages" ended already:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

Do you disagree with the article above that there is "therefore no present need for conversion"? Your statement that there "there may be some form of recompense" post mortem seems to be at odds with that.







I'm not Davo or a FP but i bet the Devil was cast into the LOF at the 70AD event. To me it seems clear Satan is quite active and not in the LOF now.
steve7150
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:01 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:21 pm

steve7150 wrote:I'm not Davo or a FP but i bet the Devil was cast into the LOF at the 70AD event. To me it seems clear Satan is quite active and not in the LOF now.


Why do you think the Devil was cast into the LOF in 70 A.D.?

If he's active & not in the LOF now, when did he get out of the LOF?
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby steve7150 » Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:58 pm

Why do you think the Devil was cast into the LOF in 70 A.D.?

If he's active & not in the LOF now, when did he get out of the LOF?










I don't but i think the FP belief is that the LOF is symbolic of 70AD. Personally i think he is as active as ever and the god of world's fastest growing religion.
steve7150
 
Posts: 1052
Joined: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:01 am

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby davo » Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:47 pm

Given that Origen has moved my quote above from this thread to here I’ve decided to move my response to a more appropriate thread over HERE so this thread keeps closer to its theme.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1761
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:42 pm

davo wrote:Given that Origen has moved my quote above from this thread to here I’ve decided to move my response to a more appropriate thread over HERE so this thread keeps closer to its theme.


Good idea.
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Fri Nov 03, 2017 4:09 pm

In the early church, according to Church Father Origen - very many - Christians did not believe in free will:

"7. But, seeing there are found in the sacred Scriptures themselves certain expressions occurring in such a connection, that the opposite of this may appear capable of being understood from them, let us bring them forth before us, and, discussing them according to the rule of piety, let us furnish an explanation of them, in order that from those few passages which we now expound, the solution of those others which resemble them, and by which any power over the will seems to be excluded, may become clear."

"Those expressions, accordingly, make an impression on very many, which are used by God in speaking of Pharaoh, as when He frequently says, I will harden Pharaoh's heart. For if he is hardened by God, and commits sin in consequence of being so hardened, the cause of his sin is not himself. And if so, it will appear that Pharaoh does not possess freedom of will; and it will be maintained, as a consequence, that, agreeably to this illustration, neither do others who perish owe the cause of their destruction to the freedom of their own will."

"That expression, also, in Ezekiel, when he says, I will take away their stony hearts, and will give them hearts of flesh, that they may walk in My precepts, and keep My ways, may impress some, inasmuch as it seems to be a gift of God, either to walk in His ways or to keep His precepts, if He take away that stony heart which is an obstacle to the keeping of His commandments, and bestow and implant a better and more impressible heart, which is called now a heart of flesh."

"Consider also the nature of the answer given in the Gospel by our Lord and Saviour to those who inquired of Him why He spoke to the multitude in parables. His words are: That seeing they may not see; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest they should be converted, and their sins be forgiven them. The words, moreover, used by the Apostle Paul, that it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy; in another passage also, that to will and to do are of God: and again, elsewhere,"

"Therefore has He mercy upon whom He will, and whom He will He hardens. You will say then unto me, Why does He yet find fault? For who shall resist His will? O man, who are you that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him who has formed it, Why have you made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another to dishonour? — these and similar declarations seem to have no small influence in preventing very many from believing that every one is to be considered as having freedom over his own will, and in making it appear to be a consequence of the will of God whether a man is either saved or lost."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/04123.htm
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Paidion » Fri Nov 03, 2017 5:36 pm

Origen, who are these "very many" in the early church who did not believe in free will? If there are very many, you should be able to quote, say, a half dozen of them.

Early in this thread, I posted 18 quotes from early Christian writers, each of whom affirmed that people have free will. Two of these quotes are from Origen! Here they are again:

1. 100-165 AD : Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestinated that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.” (First Apology ch.43 )

2. [About the year 180, Florinus had affirmed that God is the author of sin, which notion was immediately attacked by Irenaeus, who published a discourse entitled: “God, not the Author of Sin.” Florinus’ doctrine reappeared in another form later in Manichaeism, and was always considered to be a dangerous heresy by the early fathers of the church.]

3. 130-200 AD : Irenaeus
“This expression, ‘How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldst not,’ set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free (agent) from the beginning, possessing his own soul to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God...And in man as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice...If then it were not in our power to do or not to do these things, what reason had the apostle, and much more the Lord Himself, to give us counsel to do some things and to abstain from others?” (Against Heresies XXXVII )

4. 150-190 AD : Athenagoras
“men...have freedom of choice as to both virtue and vice (for you would not either honor the good or punish the bad; unless vice and virtue were in their own power, and some are diligent in the matters entrusted to them, and others faithless)...”(Embassy for Christians XXIV )

5. 150-200 AD : Clement of Alexandria
“Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.” (Miscellanies, book 1, ch.17)

6. 154-222 AD : Bardaisan of Syria
“How is it that God did not so make us that we should not sin and incur condemnation? —if man had been made so, he would not have belonged to himself but would have been the instrument of him that moved him...And how in that case, would man differ from a harp, on which another plays; or from a ship, which another guides: where the praise and the blame reside in the hand of the performer or the steersman...they being only instruments made for the use of him in whom is the skill? But God, in His benignity, chose not so to make man; but by freedom He exalted him above many of His creatures.” (Fragments )

7. 155-225 AD : Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was by God constituted free, master of his own will and power; indicating the presence of God’s image and likeness in him by nothing so well as by this constitution of his nature.” (Against Marcion, Book II ch.5 )

8. 185-254 AD : Origen
“This also is clearly defined in the teaching of the church that every rational soul is possessed of free-will and volition.” (De Principiis, Preface )

185-254 AD : Origen
“There are, indeed, innumerable passages in the Scriptures which establish with exceeding clearness the existence of freedom of will.” (De Principiis, Book 3, ch.1 )

9. 250-300 AD : Archelaus
“There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he chooses.” (Disputation with Manes, secs.32,33 )

10. 260-315 AD : Methodius
“Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils.” (The Banquet of the Ten Virgins, discourse 8, chapter 16 )

11. 312-386 AD : Cyril of Jerusalem
“The soul is self-governed: and though the Devil can suggest, he has not the power to compel against the will. He pictures to thee the thought of fornication: if thou wilt, thou rejectest. For if thou wert a fornicator by necessity then for what cause did God prepare hell? If thou wert a doer of righteousness by nature and not by will, wherefore did God prepare crowns of ineffable glory? The sheep is gentle, but never was it crowned for its gentleness; since its gentle quality belongs to it not from choice but by nature.” (Lecture IV 18 )

12. 347-407 AD : John Chrysostom
“All is in God’s power, but so that our free-will is not lost...it depends therefore on us and on Him. We must first choose the good, and then He adds what belongs to Him. He does not precede our willing, that our free-will may not suffer. But when we have chosen, then He affords us much help...It is ours to choose beforehand and to will, but God’s to perfect and bring to the end.” (On Hebrews, Homily 12 )

13. 120-180 AD: Tatian
“We were not created to die. Rather, we die by our own fault. Our free will has destroyed us. We who were free have become slaves. We have been sold through sin. Nothing evil has been created by God. We ourselves have manifested wickedness. But we, who have manifested it, are able again to reject it.” (Address to the Greeks, 11)

14. (died 180 AD):Melito
“There is, therefore, nothing to hinder you from changing your evil manner to life, because you are a free man.” (Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 8, page 754)

15. 163-182 AD:Theophilus
“If, on the other hand, he would turn to the things of death, disobeying God, he would himself be the cause of death to himself. For God made man free, and with power of himself.” (Theophilus to Autolycus, Book 2, Chapter 27)

16. 130-200 AD:Irenaeus
“Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good deeds’…And ‘Why call me, Lord, Lord, and do not do the things that I say?’…All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man…For it is in man’s power to disobey God and to forfeit what is good.” (Against Heresies, Book 4, Chapter 37)

17. 150-200 AD:Clement of Alexandria
“We…have believed and are saved by voluntary choice.” (The Instructor, Book 1, Chapter 6)

18. 155-225: Tertullian
“I find, then, that man was constituted free by God. He was master of his own will and power…For a law would not be imposed upon one who did not have it in his power to render that obedience which is due to law. Nor again, would the penalty of death be threatened against sin, if a contempt of the law were impossible to man in the liberty of his will…Man is free, with a will either for obedience or resistance. (Against Marcion, Book 2, Chapter 5)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 80th year of life.
User avatar
Paidion
 
Posts: 4124
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: The Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Origen; » Fri Nov 03, 2017 11:21 pm

Paidion wrote:Origen, who are these "very many" in the early church who did not believe in free will? If there are very many, you should be able to quote, say, a half dozen of them.

Early in this thread, I posted 18 quotes from early Christian writers, each of whom affirmed that people have free will. Two of these quotes are from Origen! Here they are again:

1. 100-165 AD : Justin Martyr
“We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestinated that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions—whatever they may be.” (First Apology ch.43 )

2. [About the year 180, Florinus had affirmed that God is the author of sin, which notion was immediately attacked by Irenaeus, who published a discourse entitled: “God, not the Author of Sin.” Florinus’ doctrine reappeared in another form later in Manichaeism, and was always considered to be a dangerous heresy by the early fathers of the church.]



I just happened upon the quote while searching for a known Origen reference in De Principiis to aionios punishment (Mt.25:46) being corrective, remedial and finite. It quite shocked me, since Origen appears to be referring to a very large number of Christians within the church who rejected the doctrine of libertarian free will. How long this had been the case is not stated in the bit i posted & i haven't read the entire page.

Reading & researching the church fathers on this topic has not been of great interest to me & something i've left to others who have already done the work, or those who will. So i won't be providing a half dozen names today, but if you look into it you may very well find them yourself via the references i've provided at the linked post below.

At face value the out of context English language quotes may seem to support a belief in freewill by some of the early church fathers. Ideally one would read the remarks in their original languages - usually Latin or Koine Greek - to see if there is any merit to the English translations you've provided. And read everything alleged to be written by all ECF to see if they are consistent or contradict themselves & each other re freewill. That's beyond my capabilities & an endeavor that could take a lifetime.

I would guess that "very many" opponents of freewill would be a number much greater than the small number of 14 different authors you have quoted English renderings of. And therefore would include many of your typical laymen of the day, possibly a church majority.

The church had centuries to delete any references by church fathers to doctrines it didn't approve of. As it is said, the conquerors write history. Although does not number two on your list refer to one such rejecter of freewill & at roughly about the same time as Clement of Alexandria?

AFAIK Origen's concern was that a denial of freewill would lead to sin. Perhaps he would have had a different attitude living in the 21st century after comparing the churches that believe in freewill & those that deny freewill.

See also my previous response to you on this same topic here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3198&p=111262&hilit=essenes#p111262

Re: Poll: Can I be a Calvinist and a Universalist?
by Origen; » Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:12 am

by Paidion » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:52 am

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3198&p=111262&hilit=essenes#p111262
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: Free Willism or God's Soeveignty in Salvation of All

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:40 am

If you want to prove free will doesn't exist, just prove that zombies are theologically and scientifically possible ;)

And let me share this article I've share previously, from the Patheos evangelical newsletter:

Image


Please. This is important! Watch the 15 minute video - by the seminary trained minister. :!:

Let me quote a bit - from the accompanying article

What is a zombie? Is it possible for an evil demon to inhabit a dead body and walk around kind of like a false resurrection?

Are these things real, or just myths like cartoon superheroes? Are these kinds of things an insight into the supernatural battle between God and Satan that is raging on the earth? Or, are concepts like Satan, demons, and zombies primitive myths from a bygone age when people were not well educated and lived in fear of powerful but false cultural myths about the spirit realm?

Have you ever really stopped to think about these things in much detail? If someone asked you these kinds of questions, what would your answer be? Do you know if the Bible says anything about these subjects?


P.S. Some folks here might not like the "Hollywood make-believe", zombie GIF images. So if I can substitute a "cartoon" variation instead, I will do so. :lol:

Image
Charismatic / Eastern Anglo-Catholic / Holy Fool; Inclusivist / Purgatorial Conditionalist / Nicene Creed / ACNA; Zombie Apocalypse;
Contemplation (Celtic, Mindfulness, Yoga, Zen); Holistic Medicine (i.e. Ayurveda, Homeopathy, Kampo, Traditional, Spiritual);
User avatar
Holy-Fool-P-Zombie
 
Posts: 2829
Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:30 pm
Location: Near Chicago or hanging out with Holy Fools, Zombies, P-Zombies, Nerds and Geeks

Previous

Return to General Discussion on Evangelical Universalism

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], qaz and 8 guests