The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What is Revelation 22:15 really telling us?

Everyone

It is important that we understand the time setting of Revelation 22:15. Before discussing the passage in detail, we need to realize that it describes a time AFTER the heavenly Jerusalem has descended to earth. We read earlier, in Revelation 21:1-2: “Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.” Verse 10 continues to explain that “the great city, the holy Jerusalem, [was] descending out of heaven from God.” Verse 27 continues that “there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.”

It is important to understand that the heavenly Jerusalem will descend AFTER the events described in Revelation 20; that is, AFTER “anyone not found in the Book of Life” had been "cast into the lake of fire (verse 15). “Death and Hades,” that is, all physical humans not written in the Book of Life, had already been “cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death” (verse 14).

With this background, let us read Revelation 22:14-15:

“(14) Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. (15) But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.”

Revelation 22:19 adds that “if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.”

Since Revelation 22:15 talks about sinners who will be “outside” the heavenly Jerusalem, is it teaching that the souls of the lost ones are still roaming outside the city? No, because we read in an earlier passage, in Revelation 21:8, that those who have committed the unpardonable sin will have been thrown into the lake of fire, to be burned up . [Revelation 21:8 reads: “But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”]

The lists of sins in Revelation 21:8 and Revelation 22:15 are very similar, indicating that these passages address the same kind of people.

The Commentary on the Whole Bible by Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, states: “As all the filth of the old Jerusalem was carried outside the walls and burnt there, so nothing defiled shall enter the heavenly city, but be burnt outside (cf. ch. 22:15).”

The Broadman Bible Commentary explains Revelation 22:15, as follows:

“The blessedness of the righteous is seen more clearly in John’s contrast with those outside. Outside does not mean that the wicked are milling around the exterior of the walls of the holy city. It means that they will never be inside the city; they are [or better: were cast into] the lake of fire (20:15). The term could have some reference to life in the present world; the righteous already know a habitation with God; the wicked are already outside.”

In fact, the Bible speaks repeatedly about those who are “outside” – who are not a part of the Church. 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 reads: “For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore put away from yourselves the evil person.” Compare, too, Colossians 4:5 and 1 Thessalonians 4:12.

The Greek word for “outside,” “exo,” which is used in those passages and in Revelation 22:15, can also mean “without.” In Matthew 13:47-48, it is translated as, “away”: “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to the shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad AWAY.”

The meaning is clear: Those who are “bad”; that is those who commit the sins, as described in Revelation 22:15, as a way of life, without a willingness to repent, will be “outside” or “without” or “away from” the holy city and the Kingdom of God. Many Scriptures show that those people will not inherit or enter the Kingdom (compare 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21; and Ephesians 5:5). Please note that the lists of sins, as set forth in 1 Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians, are very similar to the sins mentioned in Revelation 21:8 and 22:15, including sexual immorality, idolatry, sorcery, and murders. All these lists address the same kind of people.

Christ said in Luke 13:28: “There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, and yourselves thrust out [and thrown into the lake of fire, compare Matthew 13:41-42].”

Rather than teaching that the souls of the lost ones are “milling around the exterior of the walls of the holy city,” Revelation 22:15 teaches that they won’t be there. Moffat translates Revelation 22:15 in this way: “Begone, you dogs, you sorcerers, you vicious creatures, you murderers, you idolaters, you who love and practice falsehood, every one of you.” Other translations render the Greek word “exo”; i.e., “outside” or “without,” as “excluded.” Those who refuse to repent will be EXCLUDED from access to the Kingdom of God and the holy city. They will be in the lake of fire which is the second and final death, from which there is no resurrection back to life. :wink:

Source: COTEG.

God bless,
Aaron

What’s COTEG? And I’ve never heard of Broadman.

But this is perfect, it plays right into the interpretation of them being just outside. If not, where in outer space is the lake of fire gonna be? :astonished: On the sun?

Anyway, I’ll see your biblical reference to exo and raise you eight. :mrgreen:

It’s clear that they are outside of the gates. They are contrasted with those who have washed their robes, and CAN go through the gates of the city. The “dogs” are outside the gates. The Greek word for outside here is “exō” meaning “without, out of doors” and other references using the same word include: Jesus’ mother and brothers being outside the door as he’s teaching, Jesus going outside of the city, Peter being outside the temple during Jesus’ trial, later going “out” into the porch, Jesus leading the blind man out of town, the servants in the parable killing the heir and taking him outside the vineyard, the donkey Jesus rode on being outside the house, the people being outside the Holy of Holies when Zechariah the eventual father of the Baptist went inside to burn incense, etc, etc.

So you see, the word literally means to be “just outside,” which shows that this verse does mean that those people are sitting outside the gates, which is perfect because it’s a throwback to ancient Israel where the lepers would sit outside the gates and cry out unclean, except this time the people are spiritually unclean rather than physically speaking. Leprosy has always been a really good symbol for sin in the bible. If you don’t believe me, take a good look through it.

I can’t make you accept truth, Justin. I believe this to be true. You must decide that for yourself. Your either going to accept God’s word or your not. :wink:

A,
I didn’t realize you were an annihilationist.
What is COTEG?

Sonia

Or BURRRRNN!

I’m down with that. I could use some more good ol’ eonian purifyin’. :wink: Does a soul right good, t’does.

Hm. This pattern seems familiar.

1.) A37 provides a relatively lengthy (for him) article he cut and pasted from somewhere…

2.) …without having paid enough attention to it himself to notice that the article itself disagrees with him on some important points…

3.) …and then briefly dismisses any attempt at actually discussing his article in any detail, if that attempt somehow disagrees with him…

4.) …while implying that those who disagree with him are doing so for their own irrational and/or unfaithful reasons…

5.) …except of course A37 means that they’re disagreeing with God Himself.

I mean, I could discuss this pretty thoroughly, too; except that I’ve already done so. And A has shown us in detail how he’s going to treat any intelligently argued position that happens to arrive at something other than what he believes. (Not that this is the first time he’s done so.)

So, better things to do with my time elsewhere. Maybe later, if I’m bored. :neutral_face:

Didn’t Aaron37 used to refuse to engage with posters who cut and pasted articles by other people? Saying ‘I don’t want to know what <insert author’s name here> has to say I want to know what YOU have to say on the matter…’?

Hm, yes, I seem to recall him doing just that… :mrgreen:

Since his article presentation here is pretty clearly in context of “Discussion Negative” (I expect he intends it to be an answer to some points I was making in my analysis, along with some other people on the forum), I’ve moved it to that category. (I left behind a shadow topic in the other category to easily redirect readers here.)

In case anyone is wondering: no, he still hasn’t put the pieces together as thoroughly as I did. :wink: Leaving out those pieces skews his result. (There are some other more specific problems, too, but I expect they’re pretty obvious to anyone who has been studying the topic on our forum.)

By the by, casting fish outside a boat in no way signifies that people outside of the city will be in some lake of fire somewhere out in space. In fact it implies the opposite, unless you think that they cast their fish a mile away, and we really don’t wanna get into a discussion on Peter’s throwing arm, do we? It says they’re outside the gate, not outside the planet.

But seriously, thank you for being yet another peg in God’s woodwork, A. Now I can boldly proclaim the ever-so good news of salvation for everyone to the world since you reminded me that I ain’t got no one to fear but God and I already done feared him. :mrgreen:

Time to get youtubin’. :smiling_imp:

or you can realize your view is wrong. :smiley:

Well, with such a convincing argument as that, we just all may end up doing that… :wink:

A few observations on Rev. 21:

  1. Is the New Jerusalem on the New Earth? - You know, it occurred to me, after studying Rev. 21 & 22, no where do I find that the New Jerusalem will actually touch down on earth, only that it descended down out of heaven. And this is consistent to what we find in the parallel passage in Isaiah 65 & 66.

*"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying." - Isaiah 65:17-19*

Notice that the former shall not be remembered nor come to mind. This tells me that a total obliteration of the old heavens and old earth will has occurred. Indeed,there is no need for either sun or moon to shine upon it, rather the Light comes from God and the Lamb, according to Rev. 21:23. Which tells me that whatever this New Jerusalem is, it is not within the normal solar system in which we presently abide.

Back in Isaiah 66:1, we see the LORD declaring, “*The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?” *

So God abides on the throne of the New Jersalem (however figuratively or literally you take that. i.e. the tabernacle of God, the throne of God, etc). I don’t think that it means that there is some anthrophomorphic God on high, but rather the Presence of God is in the New Jerusalem above. John views this from a great and high mountian, but from that view, the NJ is *still descending *. The highest point in Israel is Mount Hermon range in the Golan heights at 9,232 ft above sea level, hardly a ‘great and high mountain’ compared to other structures (even I climbed higher than this). And this is not even near Jerusalem, some 150 miles away. Furthermore, the NJ spans 1500 by 1500 miles (length and width), or 2.25 million square miles. By comparasion, Israel only emcompasses 8019 sq. mi., while Earth is some 197 million sq. mi. The NJ is slightly smaller than Australia (2.97 million sq. mi.) And that doesn’t take into account of the 1500 mile height. So NJ is about the size of a small moon. That much mass would affect the earth significantly if it were to touch earth. So the logical conclusion is that it is above the earth at some considerable distance.

It also piques my interest in that whole Tower of Babel thing. What were those people futilely thinking that they could build a tower that high?

Meanwhile while the light of His Presence is seen by the nations below and the kings of the earth bring glory and honor to it (His footstool). In other words, there is a separation here between the New Heaven (NJ) and the New Earth, apart from a cosmological construct of a solar system. (At present, the current life expectancy of our Sun is about 5 billion years before it goes nova or burns out. Hardly an endless eternity anyway).

  1. Why is there a process going on after the New Heaven and New Earth? - I direct you back to Rev 21:1-7, all which occurs after the New Heavens and New Earth are created. If the Great White Throne Judgement has already occurred at this point in the previous chapter, then why does there seem to be a process going on after the NH and NE are created? The Alpha and Omega is still working on people *“I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely” *(who is thirsty at this point? Is not our salvation already complete?) *“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” * (By this time, aren’t we already overcomers? Or do we still need to oversome some things?)

  2. Why are people still in the Lake of Fire after the New Heavens and New Earth? - And then we come to Rev 21:8, which makes no sense if the GWT judgement is already past. Who in the New Heaven and New Earth are still being judged? And how long is ‘their part’? What happens to them when they are done with “their part”?

Hey Dondi

  1. Yes, because in Rev 21:24-26 It descibes the saved kings and nations having the ability to walk in and out of it’s gates.

  2. You answered your own question. Rev 21:7 " He that overcometh shall inherit these things, and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. There is no process still going on… Jesus is descibing the ones who will have access to the fountain of the water of life…the overcomers…the ones who made it through the judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

  3. Jesus is describing the people who did not make it through the judgment of Rev 20:11-15 at the end of the millenial reign…these people will not inherit these things, ( I will be their God…and be His sons)

God bless,
Aaron

Why on earth (pun intended) would the ‘saved’ kings and nations wish to walk out of the city. Isn’t without full of “dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie”? What do they gain from leaving the safety of the city and hanging out with the likes of such? Do they wish to visit their ‘unsaved’ loved ones? And even if they did, what could they say to them if they are ‘eternally lost’?

Well, maybe Jason can help me, since he is more versed in the Greek than I, on the use of the present tense in the word ‘overcometh’, rather than past tense like ‘overcame’ as one might expect when talking about a past event, especially combined with a future action ‘will inherit’. The voice of this quote is coming from God on the throne at a point when the New Jerusalem has descended, so the voice is present tense in the future vision. The 'I will’s in verse 6 indicate an action that God intends to do in the present time of the vision also.

The 'I will’s in verse 6 indicate actions that God intends to do in the present time of the vision also. The past time of the judgement and the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth is over, “It is done” in the same verse 6. So why after saying “it is done” He is still in the process of giving water freely and making sons (“he *shall be *my son”) in future tense?

Or are you verse in grammatical English?

Does it? I don’t see anything there about walking “in and out of it’s gates.” Is there anywhere in Rev that says that they go “out” of the City?

Rev 3:12, which A37 declined to discuss with me, states that the overcomers will be made into “pillars of the Temple”, and “will go no more out”.

There is the one verse in Is 66 that speaks of going out to look at the corpses, but that’s the only ref I can think of that might be applicable.

Sonia

Sonia

Rev 3:12 represents the overcomer believers position as God’s dwelling place in view of the assurance that “never shall he go out of it.” This would have made sense for those in Philadelphia: although they are expelled from Satan’s synagogue (Rev. 3:9) they find a permanent place in God’s temple in the NJ.

There are many scriptures that describe individual believers and the church as the being the pillars of the temple of God ( 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19; Eph 2:21-22; 1 Peter 2:4-5). See also 1 Tim 3:15 ; Gal 2:9 describing God’s people as “pillars". 1 Kings 7:21 gives imagery of Rev 3:12.

God bless,
Aaron

Whoops, Aaron! You forgot to give a link for your copy-and-paste Google search again! :astonished:

Also, how does the lake of fire still exist with the beginning of the new heavens and earth!? I thought it then ceased to exist, Aaron. :astonished:

Anyways, I always understood the sayings at the end of Revelation to be the Lord speaking just as at the beginning of the book on the Lord’s day. Unless you expect that on the new earth we’ll hear a loud voice telling some ancient Jew to not add anymore words to his scroll? :wink: And that the time for these things to happen is drawing near.

Here, I got it for you, Stellar: enjoyinggodministries.com/ar … on-312-13/ :wink:

Aaron, what I was trying to address was the idea of people walking “in and out” of the city. Most specifically, the ‘out’ part. The reference you listed doesn’t cover that.

Sonia

Bye Sonia, I have let you and this forum waste too much of my time. Lesson learned… Never try to teach the unteachable.

Bye, Aaron!

By the way, a lot of time could have been saved if you had stated plainly in your original intro as “Born Again”, that your intention in coming to this forum was to “teach” us that Universal Reconciliation was wrong–instead of saying you wanted “respectful discussion” (or something like that). Then we could have just told you outright that it wasn’t going to happen! :sunglasses:

Sorry you wasted your time! :wink:

Sonia