The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What is Revelation 22:15 really telling us?

Hm, yes, I seem to recall him doing just that… :mrgreen:

Since his article presentation here is pretty clearly in context of “Discussion Negative” (I expect he intends it to be an answer to some points I was making in my analysis, along with some other people on the forum), I’ve moved it to that category. (I left behind a shadow topic in the other category to easily redirect readers here.)

In case anyone is wondering: no, he still hasn’t put the pieces together as thoroughly as I did. :wink: Leaving out those pieces skews his result. (There are some other more specific problems, too, but I expect they’re pretty obvious to anyone who has been studying the topic on our forum.)

By the by, casting fish outside a boat in no way signifies that people outside of the city will be in some lake of fire somewhere out in space. In fact it implies the opposite, unless you think that they cast their fish a mile away, and we really don’t wanna get into a discussion on Peter’s throwing arm, do we? It says they’re outside the gate, not outside the planet.

But seriously, thank you for being yet another peg in God’s woodwork, A. Now I can boldly proclaim the ever-so good news of salvation for everyone to the world since you reminded me that I ain’t got no one to fear but God and I already done feared him. :mrgreen:

Time to get youtubin’. :smiling_imp:

or you can realize your view is wrong. :smiley:

Well, with such a convincing argument as that, we just all may end up doing that… :wink:

A few observations on Rev. 21:

  1. Is the New Jerusalem on the New Earth? - You know, it occurred to me, after studying Rev. 21 & 22, no where do I find that the New Jerusalem will actually touch down on earth, only that it descended down out of heaven. And this is consistent to what we find in the parallel passage in Isaiah 65 & 66.

*"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.

And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying." - Isaiah 65:17-19*

Notice that the former shall not be remembered nor come to mind. This tells me that a total obliteration of the old heavens and old earth will has occurred. Indeed,there is no need for either sun or moon to shine upon it, rather the Light comes from God and the Lamb, according to Rev. 21:23. Which tells me that whatever this New Jerusalem is, it is not within the normal solar system in which we presently abide.

Back in Isaiah 66:1, we see the LORD declaring, “*The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?” *

So God abides on the throne of the New Jersalem (however figuratively or literally you take that. i.e. the tabernacle of God, the throne of God, etc). I don’t think that it means that there is some anthrophomorphic God on high, but rather the Presence of God is in the New Jerusalem above. John views this from a great and high mountian, but from that view, the NJ is *still descending *. The highest point in Israel is Mount Hermon range in the Golan heights at 9,232 ft above sea level, hardly a ‘great and high mountain’ compared to other structures (even I climbed higher than this). And this is not even near Jerusalem, some 150 miles away. Furthermore, the NJ spans 1500 by 1500 miles (length and width), or 2.25 million square miles. By comparasion, Israel only emcompasses 8019 sq. mi., while Earth is some 197 million sq. mi. The NJ is slightly smaller than Australia (2.97 million sq. mi.) And that doesn’t take into account of the 1500 mile height. So NJ is about the size of a small moon. That much mass would affect the earth significantly if it were to touch earth. So the logical conclusion is that it is above the earth at some considerable distance.

It also piques my interest in that whole Tower of Babel thing. What were those people futilely thinking that they could build a tower that high?

Meanwhile while the light of His Presence is seen by the nations below and the kings of the earth bring glory and honor to it (His footstool). In other words, there is a separation here between the New Heaven (NJ) and the New Earth, apart from a cosmological construct of a solar system. (At present, the current life expectancy of our Sun is about 5 billion years before it goes nova or burns out. Hardly an endless eternity anyway).

  1. Why is there a process going on after the New Heaven and New Earth? - I direct you back to Rev 21:1-7, all which occurs after the New Heavens and New Earth are created. If the Great White Throne Judgement has already occurred at this point in the previous chapter, then why does there seem to be a process going on after the NH and NE are created? The Alpha and Omega is still working on people *“I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely” *(who is thirsty at this point? Is not our salvation already complete?) *“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” * (By this time, aren’t we already overcomers? Or do we still need to oversome some things?)

  2. Why are people still in the Lake of Fire after the New Heavens and New Earth? - And then we come to Rev 21:8, which makes no sense if the GWT judgement is already past. Who in the New Heaven and New Earth are still being judged? And how long is ‘their part’? What happens to them when they are done with “their part”?

Hey Dondi

  1. Yes, because in Rev 21:24-26 It descibes the saved kings and nations having the ability to walk in and out of it’s gates.

  2. You answered your own question. Rev 21:7 " He that overcometh shall inherit these things, and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. There is no process still going on… Jesus is descibing the ones who will have access to the fountain of the water of life…the overcomers…the ones who made it through the judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

  3. Jesus is describing the people who did not make it through the judgment of Rev 20:11-15 at the end of the millenial reign…these people will not inherit these things, ( I will be their God…and be His sons)

God bless,
Aaron

Why on earth (pun intended) would the ‘saved’ kings and nations wish to walk out of the city. Isn’t without full of “dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie”? What do they gain from leaving the safety of the city and hanging out with the likes of such? Do they wish to visit their ‘unsaved’ loved ones? And even if they did, what could they say to them if they are ‘eternally lost’?

Well, maybe Jason can help me, since he is more versed in the Greek than I, on the use of the present tense in the word ‘overcometh’, rather than past tense like ‘overcame’ as one might expect when talking about a past event, especially combined with a future action ‘will inherit’. The voice of this quote is coming from God on the throne at a point when the New Jerusalem has descended, so the voice is present tense in the future vision. The 'I will’s in verse 6 indicate an action that God intends to do in the present time of the vision also.

The 'I will’s in verse 6 indicate actions that God intends to do in the present time of the vision also. The past time of the judgement and the creation of the New Heavens and New Earth is over, “It is done” in the same verse 6. So why after saying “it is done” He is still in the process of giving water freely and making sons (“he *shall be *my son”) in future tense?

Or are you verse in grammatical English?

Does it? I don’t see anything there about walking “in and out of it’s gates.” Is there anywhere in Rev that says that they go “out” of the City?

Rev 3:12, which A37 declined to discuss with me, states that the overcomers will be made into “pillars of the Temple”, and “will go no more out”.

There is the one verse in Is 66 that speaks of going out to look at the corpses, but that’s the only ref I can think of that might be applicable.

Sonia

Sonia

Rev 3:12 represents the overcomer believers position as God’s dwelling place in view of the assurance that “never shall he go out of it.” This would have made sense for those in Philadelphia: although they are expelled from Satan’s synagogue (Rev. 3:9) they find a permanent place in God’s temple in the NJ.

There are many scriptures that describe individual believers and the church as the being the pillars of the temple of God ( 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19; Eph 2:21-22; 1 Peter 2:4-5). See also 1 Tim 3:15 ; Gal 2:9 describing God’s people as “pillars". 1 Kings 7:21 gives imagery of Rev 3:12.

God bless,
Aaron

Whoops, Aaron! You forgot to give a link for your copy-and-paste Google search again! :astonished:

Also, how does the lake of fire still exist with the beginning of the new heavens and earth!? I thought it then ceased to exist, Aaron. :astonished:

Anyways, I always understood the sayings at the end of Revelation to be the Lord speaking just as at the beginning of the book on the Lord’s day. Unless you expect that on the new earth we’ll hear a loud voice telling some ancient Jew to not add anymore words to his scroll? :wink: And that the time for these things to happen is drawing near.

Here, I got it for you, Stellar: enjoyinggodministries.com/ar … on-312-13/ :wink:

Aaron, what I was trying to address was the idea of people walking “in and out” of the city. Most specifically, the ‘out’ part. The reference you listed doesn’t cover that.

Sonia

Bye Sonia, I have let you and this forum waste too much of my time. Lesson learned… Never try to teach the unteachable.

Bye, Aaron!

By the way, a lot of time could have been saved if you had stated plainly in your original intro as “Born Again”, that your intention in coming to this forum was to “teach” us that Universal Reconciliation was wrong–instead of saying you wanted “respectful discussion” (or something like that). Then we could have just told you outright that it wasn’t going to happen! :sunglasses:

Sorry you wasted your time! :wink:

Sonia

Dear Aaron37,

I am really glad that you believe in the authority of Scripture. I am also glad that you profess faith in Jesus Christ. I hope that grace is with your spirit and that you are well.

I think that your intentions would be better served by writing with an attitude that is open to alternative points of view. All of the posts of yours that I have read seem to read something like this: "I’m right. Your wrong. The Bible says I’m right. I hope you will finally see the truth and listen to the Bible someday :wink: "

Even if your reading of Scripture is correct, I can tell you that your attitude is less than persuasive. I cannot say that I believe it is the manner in which Paul wrote.

Ok. Biblical response to being burned alive.

  1. Omnipotence of God.
  2. Love of God.
  3. 1 Corinthians 3:15.
  4. 1 John 2:2.
  5. 1 Timothy 2:4.
  6. Baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
  7. i) Humans bear the image of God. ii) The image of God is a part of God’s creation. iii) God will redeem his whole creation. iv) Therefore, God will redeem all humans.

Basically, your argument depends upon the annihilation/burning being permanent and irreversible. Unless you intend to claim omniscience (I would hope not), you must admit that you are not certain of what God will do with the burned after that. Personally, I believe that it would be blasphemous to claim a limited atonement. If the atonement extends to all, then the foundation of Christ is laid to all (see Romans 5:17-21, 1 John 2:2, 1 Corinthians 3:15). If that is true, then the flames are simply the 1 Corinthians 3:15 process of all the works in a person’s life being judged and burned, but the person, the God-image bearer, the atoned by Christ, will be saved.

I think that you would be better served by admitting that you are not omniscient, that the word of God is not entirely clear as to the fate of the lost, and that you hope with all your heart and soul that all people will be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. To offer less would be to own a kind of pride that I think is less than becoming of a follower of the way.

Hi again, GB!

You wouldn’t have known this, but the ad/mods after a very long period concluded BA/Aaron (without going into the many, many details) was being a troll. So he’s on a quasi-permanent ban until and unless he shows the admins evidence of his improved recent behavior elsewhere.

But the important point is that he’s no longer here to reply to posts, or to challenges, so please don’t count it against him if he doesn’t reply – because he can’t reply due to ongoing admin action.

Relatedly, we’re still watching to make sure people don’t take advantage of his ban to gang up on him while he can’t reply in his defense. You aren’t in trouble for that yet (you weren’t trying to take advantage of his situation, and were being pretty nice in replying to him); that’s just a standard reminder to play fair once the situation is known. :slight_smile:

Nice to see you again, though! You’ll only need to post a few more times for the system to start letting you through the spamcatcher automatically. Don’t be discouraged at the post delay until then.

agreed…gr8 reply !..you know calvinists and many arminianists believe people will burn forever in hell …on top of all the suffering the world gone thru we’re s’posed to believe this ? .no, it cannot be …why dont they read jeremiah where God says He hates molech ?..the god of burning fire ? .so, God hates molech cos he burns folks but will burn folks Himself ?..bahhh !..thats nonsense.

Happily, God disagrees with you.If the Bible didn’t say certain things, I might not have embraced Universal Reconciliation simply because the idea is so stupendous…however. the fact is the Bible does say certain things…

e.g, 2 Peter 3:9 says ( Strong’s definitions included) ,

’ The Lord is not (Gk= ‘ou’= not, none, nothing) slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not (Gk= ‘me’= not, not at all, none at all ) willing ( the Greek word for ‘willing’ is = ‘boúlomai’ =“resolutely plan”,planning for, intending, ) for anyone (Gk= ‘tis’= anyone at all ) to perish, but everyone (Gk =‘pantas’ = all, everyone) to come to repentance’.

The Greek word ‘boulomai’ is a very strong term according to Strongs and means, in the strongest language possible, that God is ‘resolutely planning’ for all to come to repentance. What does repentance lead to ?..it leads to salvation.

Therefore, what Almighty God ‘resolutely plans’, MUST happen.

Therefore ALL will ultimately be redeemed.If they are not all redeemed, God is not capable of getting what He wants to get. Honestly, people who believe millions will be eternally lost,who believe not all will ultimately be saved, are simply not believing what God plainly says in His word.

BTW, If we are going to talk about so called ‘free will’ I must say that the Lord’s will and determination to save somebody is infinitely greater than that persons will to reject Him.

Guys, remember: BAaron isn’t here anymore. I’m not sure he even receives emails for alerts on old threads, but even if he does that’s worse because he can’t reply.

You can talk about the things he talks about, but it isn’t fair to him to address him directly. He can’t defend himself because we admins are keeping him out until he shows (by recent evidence of his behavior elsewhere) that he can be a good opponent (instead of, in essence, a troll.)

the things he talks about, but it isn’t fair to him to address him directly. He can’t defend himself because we admins are keeping him out until he shows (by recent evidence of his behavior elsewhere) that he can be a good opponent (instead of, in essence, a troll.)

agreed… its not fair to address him directly if he’s gone but I didn’t know he was ‘gone’. Actually, I’m not addressing him anyway as I don’t even know the man…never met him/addressed him/talked to him, online …merely quoting and addressing the (false) points he’ s raising because I cant ignore people misrepresenting and maligning God by saying He torments people forever…especially when they do it on a Christian UR website…

I also never knew he was no longer a fully functioning member here …

are we allowed to even address the points he raises by quoting his comments ?..would be nice to know 'cos I see that he was once very active here going by the number of comments he has left in different threads around the forum…

it would be nice to know if we are allowed to click the ‘quote button’ and quote his comments and address his points/ questions/ assertions, or not allowed…

it’s pretty hard not to address him personally when one clicks the ‘quote’ button and quotes his comment 'cos his name automatically appears in the ‘box’ …is there any way to avoid his name automatically appearing in the ‘box’ when his comment is quoted ?.

to be on the safe side maybe we should try and delete his name within the quoted comment box (if that’s possible, I havent tried ) or perhaps better still, to be on the safe side and avoid the hassle, simply ignore his comments altogether till such time as he returns…cheers !. :smiley:

Well, yes, those are are valid tensions. The generally held solution is: talk about his ideas in third person, quoting him like you would an author you’re copy pasting from somewhere else, but avoid personal challenges (since in theory an author somewhere else could be allowed, and even encouraged, to register and reply).