Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong.

Arguments/positions against Evangelical Universalism.

Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong.

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:35 am

A man by the name Dennis Lopez is a Hell believer and claims to prove without a doubt that the eternal torment view of Hell is true on his blog...using the NLT version of the Bible.

At the end of his post he asks to be proven wrong about what he provides on his blog.

https://www.dennislopez.com/false-messi ... the-blind/

I recently watched a video posted by a YouTuber by the username of “Truth96130,” that is basically telling people Hell is not real and that it is a lie of the Devil that works for his benefit. Yes, seriously, Truth96130 really believes this. In the video a renowned and once respected Pastor by the name of “Carlton Pearson” claimed that God told him Hell is not real. I watched the entire video and gave it the complete chance to convince me that his claim was true. What it did convince me of is what the Bible had already warned me about, thanks to Jesus. I will demonstrate to you, the reader, with Bible verses that you can go look up yourself (not my philosophy), and the words of Jesus himself, how this claim is a full-fledged doctrine of demons.
“Now the Holy Spirit tells us clearly that in the last times some will turn away from the true faith; they will follow deceptive spirits and teachings that come from demons.” (NLT, 1 Timothy 4:1)

This verse by itself should be sufficient evidence for anyone to see that the “Hell doesn’t exist claim” is a trick of the devil to deceive those who are not strong with the Holy Spirit. The Bible warns us of false doctrines, false Prophets, and false Messiah’s. Did Pastor Carlton test the spirits? Did he pray on it and ask God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit for confirmation? I don’t think so, and neither did Truth96130. The devil is known for offering people things (sinful things) for instant gratification and happiness. God on the other hand is always patient and long-suffering, doing things at the right place and time. There is usually a lesson learned through a journey before you receive something from the Lord.
“Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.” (NLT, 1 John 4:1)

Then you have Jesus telling you himself about hell, are the words of Jesus not sufficient? Truth96130 gave no credit to what Jesus said, and said that Jesus spoke in parables which are not historical events. So only the historical things that Jesus spoke about have value and not parables? Are you kidding me? Jesus was teaching lessons about Heaven and Hell, why would it need to be something that happened? Besides, hypothetically it was happening, people were going to Heaven and Hell after death.
It’s these type of people who cherry pick and choose what is convenient to fit their lifestyles, so that they can continue to do what they know is sinful and not feel convicted of it. They are only tricking themselves, but the worst part is they are trying to take others with them! (See Figure 1)
“So ignore them. They are blind guides leading the blind, and if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch.” (NLT, Matthew 15:14)

I refuse to let that happen, God ordered us to be the salt & light of the world.
“You are the salt of the earth. But what good is salt if it has lost its flavor? Can you make it salty again? It will be thrown out and trampled underfoot as worthless. “You are the light of the world—like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden. No one lights a lamp and then puts it under a basket. Instead, a lamp is placed on a stand, where it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your good deeds shine out for all to see, so that everyone will praise your heavenly Father.” (NLT, Matthew 5:13-16)

Here is another lesson about Heaven and Hell from Jesus Christ our Lord and savior.
“Jesus also told them other parables. He said, “The Kingdom of Heaven can be illustrated by the story of a king who prepared a great wedding feast for his son. When the banquet was ready, he sent his servants to notify those who were invited. But they all refused to come! “So he sent other servants to tell them, ‘The feast has been prepared. The bulls and fattened cattle have been killed, and everything is ready. Come to the banquet!’ But the guests he had invited ignored them and went their own way, one to his farm, another to his business. Others seized his messengers and insulted them and killed them. “The king was furious, and he sent out his army to destroy the murderers and burn their town. And he said to his servants, ‘the wedding feast is ready, and the guests I invited aren’t worthy of the honor. Now go out to the street corners and invite everyone you see.’ So the servants brought in everyone they could find, good and bad alike, and the banquet hall was filled with guests. “But when the king came in to meet the guests, he noticed a man who wasn’t wearing the proper clothes for a wedding. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how is it that you are here without wedding clothes?’ But the man had no reply. Then the king said to his aides, ‘Bind his hands and feet and throw him into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are called, but few are chosen.” (NLT, Matthew 22:1-14)

Straight from the mouth of Jesus! This teaching illustrates how God sends his messengers and prophets to invite us to be saved, and to accept his Son, Jesus. We are constantly being invited to Heaven. The Bible is always referring to us (The Church) as the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, which is why this parable is about a wedding banquet for the King’s Son. The King being (God), the Son being (Jesus), the servants being (The Angels, Prophets, and Messengers), and the banquet representing (Heaven). I will let you guess who the invitees are.
Pay attention to the keywords, the servants were sent to notify “those who were invited.” This means not everyone is invited, so where do the uninvited go? I’m pretty sure they go to Hell. Let’s not forget “For many are called, but few are chosen,” that pretty much proves that some are chosen and some are not; meaning, some will go to Heaven and some will not.
Let’s continue on, the initially invited (The Israelites) rejected Jesus as the Messiah, some (The Pharisees) went as far as to kill him. From the beginning of the Bible all the way up to revelations, everyone that God has sent to warn humanity (His Prophets & Messengers) has been murdered or rejected all the way up to Jesus Christ and beyond. That covers the portion of parable talking about the invitees rejecting the invitation and some going as far as to murder the servants. Well, what about the King sending an army to destroy and burn their town?
I am glad you asked, throughout the Bible God turns his back on his people (The Israelites) when they reject him and rebel against him by doing such things as worshiping idols, breaking the commandments, and basically breaking their covenant with him. God removes his protection from them and even goes as far as to send other nations to attack them, as he did with King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. (The destruction and burning of the town also represents the end times in revelations). Of course, he was merciful and gave his people ample time to turn away from their sins and repent.
Moving on, the king sending his servants to invite everyone good and bad represents how the sacrificial death of Jesus enables everyone to be able to go to Heaven, without having to perfectly follow the Law of Moses. God knew we wouldn’t be able to do it. The Law of Moses was nothing more than just a long-term lesson to show us that even when facing the penalty of death and similar penalties, we would still break the law. He basically showed us that Humanity cannot govern itself without the help of God. We would need more than Laws, we would need a change of heart, and we would need the Holy Spirit.
Finally, the man not properly dressed illustrates how those that accept Jesus Christ (The Invitation), but continue to live in constant Sin, can lose their salvation. Just because you accept Christ does not mean you are guaranteed to go to Heaven, it’s only the start of your salvation. The Bible doesn’t say to run the race and fight the good fight for nothing. Now, Outer darkness, weeping, gnashing of the teeth, does that sound like Heaven to you? I think Jesus was speaking in a gentle fashion instead of being blunt and giving it to us straight; however, there is scripture which is not so nice, and for a good reason.
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.” (NLT, Matthew 25:46)

Eternal means nonstop, no breaks, forever, everlasting. Some people try to claim it’s just the second death, meaning you don’t get eternal life, but clearly the scriptures say different. You get eternal life, but it’s not the type of eternal life anyone would ever want. This is why God designed this life to be experienced in time. Things in time begin and end. This teaches us what eternity is. That is how just and fair God is.
“They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power.” (NLT, 2 Thessalonians 1:9)

If there is no Hell, how can sinners be punished in eternal destruction or separated from the Lord? Where will they go if they can’t go into Heaven?
“Throwing the wicked into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (NLT, Matthew 13:50)

“If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It’s better to enter eternal life with only one hand than to go into the unquenchable fires of hell with two hands.” (NLT, Mark 9:43)

“But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed. For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the Day of Judgment.” (NLT, 2 Peter 2:1-4)

That last verse is just blatantly clear that we will all pay for our sins, and that Hell exist, period! It is true that you can pay for your sins on Earth, but only to a certain extent. God knows that we will not be ultimately perfect without sin,
“Not a single person on earth is always good and never sins.” (NLT, Ecclesiastes 7:20)

“As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous–not even one.” (NLT, Romans 3:10)

But this does not give you the green light to do whatever you want to. God’s mercy, grace, and forgiveness are determined and given accordingly. God knows when you are trying not to sin, compared to when you really don’t care and are trying to fall through the cracks. We should strive to have as little sin as possible, remember God knows what is in our hearts. He can see if your desire is not to sin, but you fall to it not by deliberate will, but by the evil we all inherited from Adam & Eve, there is a difference.

The devil knows this, which is why he uses clever lies to deceive people. Of course he will tell us that our sins are forgiven through Christ, so it doesn’t matter what we do once we accept Jesus, and OH’ yeah by the way, Hell doesn’t exist. That is not what the true Word of God tells us. The “There is no Hell” claim is a doctrine of demons, there is no doubt about it. If Hell isn’t real then why did Jesus go down to Hell for three days to console the spirits that were imprisoned there?

“Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit. So he went and preached to the spirits in prison, those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.” (NLT, 1 Peter 3:18-20)

Truth96130 claimed that I am confusing the time of this verse. The verse above clearly states that Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (Hell) that disobeyed God during the time of Noah, basically all the people who died in the great flood; which by the way, is historically recorded in every culture around the world. If there is no Hell and I am confusing this verse, which I am obviously not, then why didn’t these same spirits go directly to Heaven? Why does the Bible say they are in prison? Why doesn’t the Bible simply say, “Jesus swung by the Prison (Hell) to bail these Spirits out?” Now let’s say there is no Hell, why are these Spirits in prison? What is this prison?
If you go back to (NLT, 2 Peter 2:1-4) which I mentioned earlier, you will see “For God did not spare even the angels who sinned. He threw them into hell, in gloomy pits of darkness, where they are being held until the Day of Judgment.” Key sentence “where they are being held,” doesn’t that coincide perfectly with the spirits in prison! You know, prison, jail, being held captive, I don’t know about you, but it sure makes sense to me. This is the perfect example of scripture backing up scripture. As the saying goes “the writing is on the wall,” and let’s not forget about the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. (See Figure 2)
And his soul went to the place of the dead. There, in torment, he saw Abraham in the far distance with Lazarus at his side. (NLT, Luke 16:23)

When I mentioned this to Truth96130 his response was, “well that’s just a parable, and it’s not a historical event.” That statement does not in no way, shape, or form prove that Hell is not real, in fact it diverts from the fact that Jesus used a parable to teach a lesson about Hell. Keyword, “lesson,” Let’s look at the definition of the word parable.

Parable –
A short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
A statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.

Well there you go, a parable is designed to teach a lesson of truth. Just because it’s not a historical event does not mean it is not true. I recommend reading the entire chapter of Luke 16. All words out of the mouth of Jesus, let me remind you. Over and over again in the Bible Hell is spoken about, illustrated, and re-cautioned to those that would believe, keyword believe. The Devil would love for people to not believe in Hell, that way people would just live how they feel and do what they want without having to worry about the repercussions.
Finally, Pastor Carlton and Truth96130 argue that God is love and he wouldn’t do these things to us. I mean how could an all loving merciful God send his people to eternal torture, right? Well once again, directly from Bible verses and not my philosophy, I will show you how God is justified in everything he does. He is the genuine holder of truth, he sets the standards, and he uses fair scales, weights, and balances. We would like to believe we know more than God, we would like to believe our ways are just, we would like to believe we can replace his laws with our own, but the truth is God is the Creator and we are the created. God set the laws of the universe, not us. Who are we but mere mortals.
“For just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts.” (NLT, Isaiah 55:9)

Do we really expect to have the same mental capacity as the entity that created us and the Universe? Seriously? If that were the case then why would we even need God at all? We would be just like him, which is the exact claim the devil made before he was found with sin and casted out of Heaven. The devil claimed he would be like the most high.
“I will climb to the highest heavens and be like the Most High.” (NLT, Isaiah 14:14)

The created cannot expect to comprehend and know as the creator.
“How foolish can you be? He is the Potter, and he is certainly greater than you, the clay! Should the created thing say of the one who made it, “He didn’t make me”? Does a jar ever say, “The potter who made me is stupid”?” (NLT, Isaiah 29:16)

Furthermore, as I tried to understand why God would send people to Hell for not meeting his qualifications, I learned some important truths. God has a standard, the one and only true balance of justice, and he will not break it for anyone. He will not be a hypocrite and break his word. Anyone who breaks the law is subject to the consequences, even the Angels.
Example of Truth: Anyone that is truly honest with pure integrity would understand that it is justified for their child to go to prison for murdering someone. Only hypocrites and people without standards would argue different.

People that go to Hell choose to go to Hell. People that go to Heaven choose to go to Heaven. (See Figure 3) God did not make us robots, he gave us self-awareness. I ask the reader, what has more value? A living being that was programmed to be righteous, or one that wasn’t but chose to be and now is? (Causality) There is a reason for everything, which is not just a “saying.” You might not agree with the reason, but who are we to tell God what is and is not fair. I am 100% sure if Jesus Christ disobeyed God, God would have sent him to Hell too.

Another misconception is that it doesn’t bother God to send people to Hell. That is a lie of the devil. The same way it hurts parents to discipline their children with the rod, it devastates our Father to sentence us (his children) to Hell. God does not enjoy this which is why he sacrificed his only Son.
“For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.” (NLT, John 3:16)

“The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.” (NLT, 2 Peter 3:9)

There is no excuse, we are warned and given a lifetime to get it right.
Then comes the question? We’ll if God is all loving and merciful then why does he let such suffering happen on Earth? That one is easy. There is suffering on Earth because we have free will to do what we want to, and some of us want to continue to do evil things. Some of us want to follow the devil instead of God. Some of us love sin more than we love our creator.
“And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.” (NLT, John 3:19)

People judge God and they never even get to know him. We’ll what about the good people who have bad things happen to them? Why doesn’t God protect them? First of all, what good people? We are all born evil.
“For I was born a sinner–yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.” (NLT, Psalm 51:5)

We inherited evil from Adam & Eve. We have to be taught to be good. We have the knowledge of good and evil, but without the help of God we will always favor evil. We are self-serving and self-gratifying.
“For they loved human praise more than the praise of God.” (NLT, John 12:43)

Also, remember we are not just facing people with free will that choose to be evil. We are facing our adversary the devil, and we are also facing spiritual battles in the unseen world around us.
“We know that we are children of God and that the world around us is under the control of the evil one.” (NLT, 1 John 5:19)

“Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.” (NLT 1 Peter 5:8)

“For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.” (NLT, Ephesians 6:12)

And that my brother’s and sister’s is why there is pain and suffering in the world. Jesus made it very clear that we will suffer in this world, so why not suffer for him instead? Why not suffer to make it to the pearly gates?
“And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. But everyone who endures to the end will be saved.” (NLT, Matthew 10:22)

“Students are not greater than their teacher, and slaves are not greater than their master. Students are to be like their teacher, and slaves are to be like their master. And since I, the master of the household, have been called the prince of demons, the members of my household will be called by even worse names! (NLT, Matthew 10:24-25)

“Yes, and everyone who wants to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.” (NLT, 2 Timothy 3:12)

Jesus did not promise life without problems once you start following him. He tells no lies and gives it to us straight. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about infinite happiness in this life, but it is about trials and tribulations leading to infinite happiness in the afterlife. Jesus never said we had to be perfect, nor does the Bible. The Bible tells us to turn away from Evil, stride to change; and most importantly, to ask God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit to help us do it. We are incapable of doing it on our own. So make no mistake of misunderstanding that only perfect people make it to Heaven, which is another lie of the devil. Name one person in the Bible, besides Jesus, that didn’t sin. You can’t do it. Do not try to earn your salvation, instead embrace it. Salvation is a gift from God, it is meant to be received and maintained.
“Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.” (NLT, Ephesians 2:9)

Believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who sacrificed himself on the cross so that we can be forgiven for our sins, become reborn and move forward from there, and know that hell is a real place. Fear the Lord of Heaven’s armies and respect who he is.
“Fear of the LORD is the foundation of true knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.” (NLT, Proverbs 1:7)

“Fear of the LORD is the foundation of wisdom. Knowledge of the Holy One results in good judgment.” (NLT, Proverbs 9:10)

God can take our mistakes and help us correct them, he can help anyone, anywhere, anytime get back on the course he designed for them. It is never too late to turn to God through Jesus Christ. Simply lift your hands up to God and repeat “Jesus I repent of my sins and I accept you as my Lord and savior, Amen.” Then seek the kingdom first, read the Bible, continue to pray, and always talk to Jesus looking for guidance and answers, and remember we have the Holy Spirit to help us through it all.

“But when the Father sends the Advocate as my representative–that is, the Holy Spirit–he will teach you everything and will remind you of everything I have told you.” (NLT, John 14:26)

“Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need.” (NLT, Matthew 6:33)

I encourage all my readers to fact check me, go look for yourself and make sure that I am not misleading you. Make sure that I am speaking from the lessons of the word of God and not from my own philosophy. Make sure that I am not twisting the word of God. I also invite my readers to comment and share your opinions down below in the comment section. May the Lord of Heaven’s Armies Bless you all!

I am currently reading and quoting from the New Living Translation version of the Bible.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:03 am

You're asking folks to speculate, on what hell and/or Hades is like. And that's what it is - pure speculation. And when the Bible describes hell or Hades, is it using figurative or direct language? Or in Anglican, New Testament scholar N.T. Wright's words - abstract or concrete language?

Now if I were to speculate,

    I would envision it - like the zombie apocalypse, from the Walking Dead and Fear the Walking Dead. To give this scenario theological plausibility, it's similar to the P-Zombie concept of Anglican Biblical scholar - N.T. Wright - at https://youtu.be/vggzqXzEvZ0. And some will probably, just be evil folks - battling the p-zombies or zombies. No punishment from God. And they might say: "
    I had enough, battling these p-zombies or zombies
    . Or the p-zombies or zombies, might have enough awareness - to say:
    "Gee. Being a p-zombie or zombie, is NOT a whole, lot of fun
    .
    Or it's God's love and our reaction to it - since we are NOT pure. Which is what the Eastern Orthodox envision. Again, no punishment from God.

Either one of the above scenarios, would be acceptable to me. But the Lakota spiritual people I studied with, describe it like the Robin William's movie - What Dreams May Come at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Dreams_May_Come_(film). They may NOT have the Christian concept of redemption, heaven and hell, etc. But they do have good insights - into afterlife purification.
.
[
Perhaps it would be fruitful for you to read Six (or sixteen) views on hell.

The hell article also pointed to the Eastern Orthodox Wiki article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_hell#Eastern_Orthodox_concept_of_hell, where I agree with their assessment:

The Eastern Orthodox Church teaches that heaven and hell are relations to or experiences of God's just and loving presence.[26][27] There is no created place of divine absence, nor is hell an ontological separation from God.[28] One expression of the Eastern teaching is that hell and heaven are dimensions of God's intensifying presence, as this presence is experienced either as torment or as paradise depending on the spiritual state of a person dwelling with God.[26][29] For one who hates God and by extension hates himself as God's image-bearer, to be encompassed by the divine presence could only result in unspeakable anguish.[30][31][32]


Now for a song, dedicated to some folks - view of hell:

Last edited by Holy-Fool-P-Zombie on Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Cindy Skillman » Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:03 pm

Geez! Will you cut the ugly gifs already, Randy? I have to scroll past your responses as quickly as possible to avoid seeing them. I'm sure I'm not the only person who finds them... disturbing. If it weren't for them I might read what you have to say.

Chris, nobody is going to read a block of text like that, that you just posted above. I'm not going to read it and I'm a moderator. Somewhere in all that is a question you want to know about. Please post your question all by itself and then you'll find people (like me, for example) who will be happy to respond. Looking at that wall of words just makes me wander away and search out pictures of kittens and puppies. (Not really, but I honestly can't face reading that, much less responding to it all.) None of us mind answering questions over and over. We know the search tools here are kind of hard to navigate and besides, we enjoy jabbering and telling all the things we know--or hope we know. Just ask your questions in your own words. And shorter. You'll find you get a lot more satisfactory answers that way.

Blessings (and welcome to the forum)

Cindy
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby JasonPratt » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:09 am

Also, I put this thread on timeout in the moderators area where no one can see it, until Sunday (hopefully, assuming I or another ad/mod like Cindy remembers to come back here), because this was your third thread in four days. Or was it your fourth thread in three days? -- I've slept since then (this is Saturday morning.)

Otherwise the thread is find (disturbing gifs from Randy because he thinks they're funny and somehow part of the Holy Fool tradition, notwithstanding. :roll: ). Just delaying it a bit to spread things out. By the time you see this again, Chris, well, it'll be back up again tautologically! :lol:
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby JasonPratt » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:18 am

Okay, here's your new thread for the week, back out of moderation (and with a post to bump it up on the active topics list, too! 8-) ) Yaay, I remembered!
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby JasonPratt » Sun Dec 10, 2017 8:09 am

ChrisDACase95 wrote:
DennisLopez wrote:I recently watched a video posted by a YouTuber by the username of “Truth96130,” that is basically telling people Hell is not real and that it is a lie of the Devil that works for his benefit. Yes, seriously, Truth96130 really believes this. In the video a renowned and once respected Pastor by the name of “Carlton Pearson” claimed that God told him Hell is not real. I watched the entire video and gave it the complete chance to convince me that his claim was true. What it did convince me of is what the Bible had already warned me about, thanks to Jesus. I will demonstrate to you, the reader, with Bible verses that you can go look up yourself (not my philosophy), and the words of Jesus himself, how this claim is a full-fledged doctrine of demons.


Most Christian universalists have historically believed hell does exist and people do go there, including probably a majority here (although that number fluctuates naturally as people come and go.) My impression is even that most of us "purgatorial" universalists also believe God actively puts people into positions of post-mortem punishment.

Also the vast majority of us, whether 'purga' or 'ultra' universalists (to give some handy nicknames, the latter of which deny there is any punishment after death although they can disagree on whether there's any suffering per se for sinners in the healing process for example), do not think this because we think or feel that God told us this.

I do not however regard it as very logical that demons would be (intentionally anyway) spreading a doctrine that God shall successfully convince them someday to stop their rebellion, repent of their sins, and come back to loyalty to God, trusting in God and in His Christ through the blood of the cross to save them from their sins and reconcile them to Himself and to their fellow creatures, never to do injustice to anyone again. I could perhaps imagine a demon perverting that claim for various purposes. But a demon basically stating that evangelical Christianity is correct would be a self-defeating point. And complaining about such a teaching as being a teaching of devils would be almost literally the same complaint the Pharisees launched at Christ, when complaining that His salvation of a man from demonic domination, whose latter state was worse than his former (because as GosMatt shows earlier in his account this guy had been exorcised and healed by Christ already but had lapsed by his own fault back into a worse state), was due to Christ being a servant of the devil. "Then Satan rises up against Satan and his house is ruined!" Christ mocked them in reply -- before announcing that they were being guilty of the sin against the Holy Spirit thereby, and that their punishment would be to put into the same situation that they insisted God would not save someone from: where their latter state, like that demented man's, would be worse than their former. Whereupon, if we come afterward and deny that God can or would save them from that situation, and denounce such salvation from sin as the work of Satan instead, we're the ones sinning like them (depending on our intention for doing so) and under the same judgment as them unless we repent.

A lot of Christ's judgement declarations turn out to be reflexive tests of His own followers like that. ;)


Regarding complaining about parables being only parables: yeah, I'm not fond of that either, but that doesn't mean the people complaining that hell judgments are parabolic think the parables have no value. They just think the parables aren't really about hell, similar to various farming parables not really being about farming and being even nonsensical sometimes if pressed to be about farming. They're important for other reasons than their face value topics.

The fact that Dennis doesn't realize this means he's either incompetent at criticizing his opponents, or he doesn't care to be truthful and fair about doing so (which would be much worse than incompetency). At this point you might as well find someone else to argue in favor of ECT hell, because Dennis is going to be too full of spiritual self-importance (at the time he wrote this anyway) to trust to be fair and accurate at analysis. At least he doesn't seem to be asking to be proven wrong, despite the thread title -- that would be a specious request, made in bad faith, from someone so totally convinced of his moral position. As far as I can tell, he actually asks people to look into the matter themselves to see if he is right or not, which is not the same as asking to be proven wrong.

Various other things he talks about have been discussed here a lot by different people (or in some cases even by the same people, where we happen to type a lot ;) ). We're very familiar with his kinds of arguments, often having once held them ourselves, and having "fact checked" various things ourselves from lessons in the authoritative scriptures from the Word of God Himself, to take a position consonant with true theology accepted as our philosophy (trinitarian theism for example is not just "my own philosophy" although I accept and believe it) -- and have come to the conclusion that his position is mistaken, and even sometimes relies on twisting the word of God to fit his conclusion.

We don't always agree among ourselves on various details, just like all other Christians everywhere, but many of us do study the details seriously. I typically find I'm accounting for more of the details than non-universalists when scriptures are cited; and I have always found that I'm being more coherently trinitarian theistic by going with Christian universal salvation instead of some other soteriology.

So I'm not going into details here, because I've already done my work in detail elsewhere and I have other things to be doing. (Also I don't always disagree with his meaning in his scripture quotes, except for him trying to use them against God's reconciliation of all things whether in the heavens or on the earth through the blood of His cross; or against God saving into His life all those He reconciles through the blood of His cross.)
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:05 am

I removed the single disturbing hell GIF in question. Even though I classify it, as a cartoon GIF. As it shows a cartoon head, surrounded by fire. I try to keep any GIF - PG related. But I forgot hell, can be a sensitive topic.

If you read thought the post...it presents information, that the ECT concept of hell...is not the only one...held by Christian scholars and theologians.

But Arthur Brown...did reach the top, of the pop charts...with a song, on an ECT hell. And I don't think, he's trying to convey any theological message. And I have no clue, how it reached the top ten. ;)

In fact, if we view Wiki at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_(Arthur_Brown_song) - it says this:

The single reached no.1 in the United Kingdom (in August 1968)[2] and in Canada. In October, it reached no.2 in the United States Billboard charts and no.19 in Australia. It also reached no.3 in Germany, no.4 in France, no.6 in the Netherlands, no.7 in Austria, no.8 in Ireland, and no.18 in Finland. "Fire" sold over one million copies, and was awarded a gold disc.[3]


The song is an example of the psychedelic rock of the period, though its lack of guitars or bass guitar[4] distinguished it from many of its contemporaries.


From the WIki article, it appears it's not theologically related. But just an artistic expression of music.

But images are a reality in marketing. And marketing research shows, that folks read more content with embedded images (used wisely, mind you)...then content without images. See - for example - this article by Hubspot (a widely respected marketing company):


And we can also view this infographic article - from another company:

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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Cindy Skillman » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:24 pm

Maybe they do, Randy, but I don't--not when there are ugly gifs involved. :shock: The song is dumb--I agree--but not disturbing, and I also have NO idea how it even made it to the radio, let alone to the top of the charts (but I do remember it).
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby St. Michael » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:47 pm

Nirvana also reached the top charts and sang this live unplugged on MTV. "Lake of Fire"





Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go down to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see 'em again till the fourth of July

I knew a lady who came from Duluth
She got bit by a dog with a rabid tooth
She went to her grave just a little too soon
Flew away howling on the yellow moon

Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go down to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see 'em again till the fourth of July

the people cry and the people moan
Look for a dry place to call their home
Try to find some place to rest their bones
While the angels and the devils try to make their own

Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go down to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see 'em again till the fourth of July
Last edited by St. Michael on Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby St. Michael » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:50 pm

And this one called "Dumb". It goes

I think I'm dumb

I think I'm dumb

I think I'm dumb


Maybe just happy

Think I'm just happy.


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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:51 pm

St. Michael wrote:Nirvana also reached the top charts and sang this live unplugged on MTV. "Lake of Fire"


Just a footnote here. The words in the video - in print - are Portuguese. :D
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby St. Michael » Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:10 pm

I put the lyrics up in English Zombie.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby St. Michael » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:37 pm

God's Gonna Cut You Down

Johnny Cash








You can run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Go tell that long tongue liar
Go and tell that midnight rider
Tell the rambler,
The gambler,
The back biter
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
Well my goodness gracious let me tell you the news
My head's been wet with the midnight dew
I've been down on bended knee talkin' to the man from Galilee
He spoke to me in the voice so sweet
I thought I heard the shuffle of the angel's feet
He called my name and my heart stood still
When he said, "John go do My will!"
Go tell that long tongue liar
Go and tell that midnight rider
Tell the rambler,
The gambler,
The back biter
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
You can run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Well you may throw your rock and hide your hand
Workin' in the dark against your fellow man
But as sure as God made black and white
What's down in the dark will be brought to the light
You can run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Run on for a long time
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Sooner or later God'll cut you down
Go tell that long tongue liar
Go and tell that midnight rider
Tell the rambler,
The gambler,
The back biter
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut 'em down
Tell 'em that God's gonna cut you down
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Paidion » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:17 pm

Well, S Michael, I think the "Nirvana" hell song is off the beam. It's the traditional misunderstanding of hell as the eternal abode of the "lost." But with God, no one is lost forever. The lost, like the prodigal son is found again by the loving Father. All of God's judgments are remedial.

Notwithstanding, I was amused by the song. Perhaps that was possible because of the unreality that it depicts.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby St. Michael » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:25 pm

Paidion,

Kolasis means to cut off or prune. This takes place when the goats are separated from Christ and the sheep. This is the correction that takes place. The body is pruned as the goats are eternally separated from Christ when He says depart from me. They are cut off and thrown into the fire.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:17 am

It's amazing what people regard as helpful and/or pertinent replies to the original post. :roll:
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Cindy Skillman » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:26 pm

LOL I was just about to say that, too. Try to keep on topic, guys. Jason wrote an excellent response to the OP--be sure not to miss it. No more hell songs, please. If you want to comment on the OP, your ideas will be much appreciated.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Origen; » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:08 pm

ChrisDACase95 wrote:“You are the salt of the earth. But what good is salt if it has lost its flavor? Can you make it salty again? It will be thrown out and trampled underfoot as worthless.



Can you make it salty again? Of course, with God all things are possible! He can make children of Abraham from stones. Everyone will be salted:

49 For everyone will be salted with fire.

24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?” 26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Cindy Skillman » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:12 pm

Good points, Origen. :)
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Origen; » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:24 pm

ChrisDACase95 wrote:
Let’s not forget “For many are called, but few are chosen,” that pretty much proves that some are chosen and some are not; meaning, some will go to Heaven and some will not.



If only "few" go to heaven, why does Paul say "many" will be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

Furthermore the "many" saved is parallel to the "many" who were lost. IOW all sinners will be saved, which is universal salvation.

Moreover Jesus says "many are called, but few are chosen", but he doesn't mention heaven or hell. He doesn't say "many are called for heaven, but few chosen for heaven". In fact God has decided to "call" ALL for heaven, not just "many". For it is written He shall draw all to Himself (Jn.12:32).

If Jesus statement was referring to some future destiny, it need not be final destiny, but merely a destiny related to a coming age or ages, such as, for an example, His millennial kingdom age eon, of 1000 years.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Cindy Skillman » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:06 pm

Okay, I'll take the parable of the wedding feast. This, like most of Jesus' parables, was told directly toward the religious leaders. They were supposed to be the friends of the King. They were waiting for the elevation of Israel, the coming of the Messiah, but when the Messiah came (though I insist they knew full well that Jesus WAS the Messiah), they rejected Him. He wasn't what they wanted at all. They wanted an earthly kingdom in which they would be the King's privileged courtiers, administering the kingdom in their "vast wisdom" and naturally, receiving the perks expected and deserved by such important men as they.

The commoners whom they despised were invited in to the feast instead and they, the only people who MATTERED, were displaced. In fact, they were so outraged that they crucified the Bridegroom. And the Kingdom, instead of going to its presumptive noblemen, went to the commoners (and HORRORS! to the GENTILES!) who were delighted to attend the wedding with all the accompanying festivities and feasting. Don't go too fast, though, you don't get to attend the wedding unless you're wearing a wedding garment (typically provided by the host, so not wearing one shows disdain for the king, not ignorance or poverty). If I remember right, the "noblemen" were (in one version) slaughtered by the King. (CI people like to point this sort of thing out.) I don't think we need go so far as to say the Jewish leaders were destroyed beyond recovery, though. God can recover, God can redeem, God can remake ALL of His wayward and rebellious children, and He can certainly, in His good time, woo them back to the family table.

This parable is not about eternal conscious torment. Is it about hell? Well, yes. If you could justly say that the Jews went through hell when Jerusalem was sacked and the whole nation (aside from those who took warning from Jesus's prophecy and fled) were killed or taken as spoils of war. "His blood be upon us, and upon our children." Thus the Jewish elite leaders cursed themselves and their countrymen. Was that the cause of their continuing persecution? I don't know. Maybe the hundreds of years of pain are simply the natural consequence of the choices made. That would be my take on it. But I'm drifting from the main point here--the parable is not about ECT. It's about the Jews' rejection of their heritage as the children of the Kingdom and their subsequent replacement by the "rabble" they despised.
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby JasonPratt » Wed Dec 13, 2017 5:20 am

Origen; wrote:
ChrisDACase95 wrote:
Let’s not forget “For many are called, but few are chosen,” that pretty much proves that some are chosen and some are not; meaning, some will go to Heaven and some will not.



If only "few" go to heaven, why does Paul say "many" will be saved:


For that matter, if the called and chosen referred to many lost-but-called compared to few-chosen-saved, then why does the parable feature vastly many more 'saved' (analogically) than the few who aren't? The king is practically cramming them into the wedding feast; the relative few who don't get in, or the one who gets in on false pretexts and then is thrown out, don't fit the apparent moral.

(Of course the cities of the rebel chief servants are burned, but we aren't told what happens to the people in them. Relatedly, this is another hell-text that involves the most important servants of the king being the ones who get zorched or at least excluded, depending on the version of the parable: it's aimed analogically at Christ's own disciples and apostles, not at random people who aren't even Christians. They get compelled to be crammed into the feast en masse!)
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Cindy Skillman » Wed Dec 13, 2017 8:19 am

Not to get too far afield or too convoluted, but I'd also say that the "many called:few chosen" ratio may very well refer to different groups of people being selected to come into the Kingdom at different times. Paul later will say that he runs the race for the high calling of Jesus Christ, and that he runs to win. This bothered me for decades. Ever since I first heard it as a child. (So..., more decades than I'm willing to admit... :lol: ) I made me feel very insecure--that my salvation was possibly based on my running some sort of race, successfully, and that if I didn't run well enough I could very well end up in ECT hell. In other words, my salvation was based on the quality of my works and whether or not they were acceptable to God. Since all of our righteousness is as filthy rags, that didn't sound promising. If PAUL was unsure whether he would run the race successfully, what hope did I have?

Of course, that's ridiculous. Paul wasn't talking about his salvation. He was talking about the "high calling of God in Christ Jesus." It sounds like that is a different and additional thing to salvation. There are other examples, but I'll spare you that for now. ;) The take-away from this for me is that there are varying positions available for at least a portion of the age to come. Some in positions of 'governance' (for lack of a better term) in which the "High Calling of God in Christ Jesus" possibly consists in going forth to minister, disciple, serve and guide those who were excluded or who excused themselves from the wedding feast. These also must come in, that God might be all in all, every knee bowing and every tongue confessing Jesus Christ as Lord--and Jesus Himself handing over the Kingdom to His Father once ALL have been thus subdued. (And lets not forget, lest we get the fallacious idea that the kneeling are compelled against their own will to submit, that God receives ONLY true worship--not sniveling, contrived, forced obeisance.)
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Re: Claims to prove ECT Hell exists, asks to be proven wrong

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 14, 2017 1:27 am

ChrisDACase95 wrote:There is no excuse, we are warned and given a lifetime to get it right.
Then comes the question? We’ll if God is all loving and merciful then why does he let such suffering happen on Earth? That one is easy. There is suffering on Earth because we have free will to do what we want to, and some of us want to continue to do evil things. Some of us want to follow the devil instead of God. Some of us love sin more than we love our creator.
“And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.” (NLT, John 3:19)



It seems Saul who became Paul had an excuse for being responsible for his crusade to have Christians persecuted, killed & compelling them - both men & women - to blaspheme. (How did he compel them to blaspheme - Inquisition style?). His excuse was that he did these things ignorantly in unbelief. How many people have died in ignorance & unbelief? Shall God not be just & without partiality & grant them also mercy?

12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry; 13Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. 14And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 15This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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