God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Arguments/positions against Evangelical Universalism.

God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby SeekingTheTruth » Sat Oct 22, 2016 9:16 pm

For those of you why who don't know, The Wondering Pilgrims YouTube channel (link - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCwfF9tYji7kfImqXjcd2vZw/videos) is back and has released Episode 1 of Season 3 of The Evangelical Universalist Show titled "The One Who Has Authority To Destroy The Soul In Hell" (link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5ecyDQSXPU), at the end of the show, it was mentioned that next weeks episode will be about Sodom and Gomorrah, so I figured that a topic on a commonly quoted (by universalists) verse about Sodom and Gomorrah:

and that verse is Ezekiel 16:53:

    EZEKIEL 16:53:
    -53: When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

    This is from the King James Version, which is my translation of choice (I am NOT KJV-Only, although I used to be), but lets look at what Ezekiel 16:53 says in other translations:

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (New International Version):
    -53: "'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (New Living Translation):
    -53: "But someday I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and Samaria, and I will restore you, too.

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (English Standard Version):
    -53: “I will restore their fortunes, both the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters, and I will restore your own fortunes in their midst,

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (New American Standard Bible ):
    -53: "Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity,

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (Holman Christian Standard Bible):
    -53: I will restore their fortunes, the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and those of Samaria and her daughters. I will also restore your fortunes among them,

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (International Standard Version):
    -53: "I'll bring them back from their captivity—that is, from the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, along with the captivity of Samaria and her daughters and the captivity of your captives among them.

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (NET Bible):
    -53: "'I will restore their fortunes, the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and the fortunes of Samaria and her daughters (along with your fortunes among them),

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (New Heart English Bible):
    -53: "'I will turn again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and the captivity of your captives in their midst;

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (GOD'S WORD® Translation):
    -53: " 'I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters, and Samaria and her daughters. I will also restore your fortune along with theirs.

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (JPS Tanakh 1917):
    -53: And I will turn their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them;

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (New American Standard 1977):
    -53: “Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity,

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (Jubilee Bible 2000):
    -53: When I shall turn their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then I will release the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (King James 2000 Bible):
    -53: When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of your captives in the midst of them:

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (American King James Version):
    -53: When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of your captives in the middle of them:

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (American Standard Version):
    -53: And I will turn again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them;

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (Douay-Rheims Bible):
    -53: And I will bring back and restore them by bringing back Sodom, with her daughters, and by bringing back Samaria, and her daughters: and I will bring those that return of thee in the midst of them.

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (Darby Bible Translation):
    -53: And I will bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them;

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (English Revised Version):
    -53: And I will turn again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (Webster's Bible Translation):
    -53: When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (World English Bible):
    -53: I will turn again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and the captivity of your captives in the midst of them;

    EZEKIEL 16:53 (Young's Literal Translation):
    -53: And I have turned back to their captivity, The captivity of Sodom and her daughters, And the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, And the captivity of thy captives in their midst,

See Ezekiel 16:53 on Bible Hub: http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/16-53.htm


As you can see, quite a few English translations use the word 'captivity' instead of fortunes, but the English translations are just that, translations, that would mean nothing if the inspired Hebrew said 'fortunes', so lets look at the Hebrew:

    -"When I shall bring again" = שׁוּב (Strong's Reference Number: H7725) - Strong's Definition: a primitive root; to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat; often adverbial, again:—((break, build, circumcise, dig, do anything, do evil, feed, lay down, lie down, lodge, make, rejoice, send, take, weep)) again, (cause to) answer ( again), in any case (wise), at all, averse, bring (again, back, home again), call (to mind), carry again (back), cease, certainly, come again (back), consider, continually, convert, deliver (again), deny, draw back, fetch home again, × fro, get (oneself) (back) again, give (again), go again (back, home), (go) out, hinder, let, (see) more, needs, be past, pay, pervert, pull in again, put (again, up again), recall, recompense, recover, refresh, relieve, render (again), requite, rescue, restore, retrieve, (cause to, make to) return, reverse, reward, say nay, send back, set again, slide back, still, × surely, take back (off), (cause to, make to) turn (again, self again, away, back, back again, backward, from, off), withdraw.
    -'their captivity' = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -'↑' = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -"the captivity" = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -'↑' = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -"of Sodom" = סְדֹם (Strong's Reference Number: H5467) - Strong's Definition: from an unused root meaning to scorch; burnt (i.e. volcanic or bituminous) district; Sedom, a place near the Dead Sea:—Sodom.

    -"and her daughters" = בַּת (Strong's Reference Number: H1323) - Strong's Definition: from H1129 (as feminine of H1121); a daughter (used in the same wide sense as other terms of relationship, literally and figuratively):—apple (of the eye), branch, company, daughter, first, old, owl, town, village.

    -"and the captivity" = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -'↑' = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -"of Samaria" = שֹׁמְרוֹן (Strong's Reference Number: H8111) - Strong's Definition: from the active participle of H8104; watch-station; Shomeron, a place in Palestine:—Samaria.

    -"and her daughters" = בַּת (Strong's Reference Number: H1323) - Strong's Definition: from H1129 (as feminine of H1121); a daughter (used in the same wide sense as other terms of relationship, literally and figuratively):—apple (of the eye), branch, company, daughter, first, old, owl, town, village.

    -"then will I bring again the captivity" = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -'↑' = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -"of thy captives" = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

    -"in the midst" = תָּוֶךְ (Strong's Reference Number: H8432) - Strong's Definition: from an unused root meaning to sever; a bisection, i.e. (by implication) the centre:—among(-st), between, half, (there-, where-), in(-to), middle, mid(-night), midst (among), out (of), through, with(-in).

    -"of them" =

See Ezekiel 16:53 on BlueLetterBible: https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/eze/16/53/t_conc_818053

That is a bit of a mess of text and hard to read, so lets narrow in on the word translated as 'captivity' (or 'fortunes', in some translations):

    "the captivity" = שְׁבוּת (Strong's Reference Number: H7622) - Strong's Definition: from H7617; exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).

The Strong's Definition here is :

    "exile, concretely, prisoners; figuratively, a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity)."

and a simple Google search shows the definition of the word 'captivity' as:

    the condition of being imprisoned or confined.

So this verse can see be seen as the captivity or imprisonment of Sodom being restored, which hints to the two resurrections seen in John 5:29:

JOHN 5:29:
-29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Could the resurrection or damnation involve the restoration of imprisonment for Sodom?

I can't read Hebrew so I can't know anything for sure, and part of the definition for the Hebrew word translated as 'captivity' is "a former state of prosperity:—captive(-ity).", HOWEVER, due to the first part of the Strong's Definition and the standard English definition of the word 'captivity', Ezekiel 16:53 sadly does NOT prove that God will restore Sodom as part of an unfailing plan to save all people.

What are your thoughts on this topic?




God Bless
Christ Be With You All
SeekingTheTruth
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:29 am
Location: Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:23 am

To anticipate the next epsiode: how the term should be interpreted between meanings depends on the context. No one anywhere, to give a pertinent example, thinks God is putting "thy captives" back into captivity, referring to the Jews of Judah in that verse -- the immediate and local (and extended) context definitely means God is restoring their former state of prosperity, both literally and (more importantly) figuratively in reconciling them to God and to their neighbors. But you'd have no idea about that at all if you only focus on prooftexting one verse.

By the same token, what's happening with Sodom, and Samaria (which represents the previously destroyed northern kingdom of Israel), depends on the same immediate and local context. Are they also being reconciled to God and to each other and to Judah (the southern kingdom)? Yes -- as might easily be expected once Samaria is identified as the prior northern kingdom (since God's promises to Abraham apply to those Jews, too). The shocking point is that Sodom is included in just the same contextual promises of reconciliation.

This is why other interpreters go the route of expecting Sodom to be a figure for someone or something else that they think God might intend to save from sin or which He can still save from sin instead of Sodom (and her daughters, representing the satellite towns owing allegiance to Sodom's leadership, including Gomorrah and other cities previously destroyed in Sodom's destruction, whether applied literally or figuratively here).
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
Sword To The Heart -- metaphysical argument to orthodox trinitarianism (and thence to universalism)
Trinitarian universalist exegetics, on internet radio, or here in forum posts.
User avatar
JasonPratt
Administrator
 
Posts: 9815
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:08 pm
Location: Dyer, TN

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:26 am

This is also, by the way, related to how a Hebrew word for counting is used in prison contexts. It can and sometimes does mean putting people into prison; but when applied to someone already in prison it means setting them free from prison. (We'll be talking about that in relation to an Isaianic verse in the next lecture, too, which has some bearing on checking what's happening in Jude's reference to Sodom and the rebel spirits imprisoned in the gloom of aidios chains.)
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
Sword To The Heart -- metaphysical argument to orthodox trinitarianism (and thence to universalism)
Trinitarian universalist exegetics, on internet radio, or here in forum posts.
User avatar
JasonPratt
Administrator
 
Posts: 9815
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:08 pm
Location: Dyer, TN

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby Geoffrey » Mon Oct 24, 2016 6:34 am

A totally different word that can mean different (and, indeed, opposite) things according to context is "shalom".

It can mean "peace".
It can mean "hello".
It can mean "good'bye".

Yep, one word meaning "hello" and "good-bye" (opposites!), depending on context.
Nicean Universalism
http://niceanuniversalism.freeforums.net/
a new message board discussing Christian universalism
Geoffrey
 
Posts: 925
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:15 pm

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:40 am

In that case, it's a blessing of peace on the other person, like saying "God be with ye" or slurring that to an abbreviation. ;)

And in fact the primitive root being used here (shuwb) has an absolute ton of meanings by extrapolative analogy from the idea of "turning", some of which are signaled by grammar or spelling, others by context, or by some combination. One of those meanings is to transport, shabah, in the sense of leading walking things somewhere like in herds. That can be used about driving people into exile, or to take people somewhere into enslavement as spoils of war, or to lead them back from somewhere such as from captivity. The noun version can refer to the concept of being herded possessions, or can refer to those being herded as possessions.

Since we're referencing Strong's, they note that H7622 was chiefly used for declaring the liberating power of YHWH in releasing His people from such banishment, whether literally or figuratively.
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
Sword To The Heart -- metaphysical argument to orthodox trinitarianism (and thence to universalism)
Trinitarian universalist exegetics, on internet radio, or here in forum posts.
User avatar
JasonPratt
Administrator
 
Posts: 9815
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:08 pm
Location: Dyer, TN

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby SeekingTheTruth » Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:20 am

@JasonPratt
To anticipate the next epsiode:

When is it coming out?

Anyway, it appears that I was wrong on this verse and that is a GOOD THING!!!!!!!
Thanks for explaining these things.




God Bless
Christ Be With You All
SeekingTheTruth
 
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2016 5:29 am
Location: Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby Paidion » Sun Oct 30, 2016 9:30 am

The meaning of this verse may not be as cut and dried as we think. There are understandings that are opposite to the idea of restoration:

When I shall bring again {e } their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then [will I bring again] the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
(e) This he speaks in comparison seeing that he would restore Jerusalem when Sodom would be restored, that is, never: and this is meant of the greatest part of the Jews. (Geneva Bible Footnotes)


the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters; which some understand as what never will be, as it never yet has been: Sodom remains to this day a dead sea, and the ten tribes are not returned:

then [will I bring again] the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them; that is, it shall never be brought again, according to the above sense; but rather this is to be understood of the calling of the Gentiles, comparable to Sodom for their wickedness, as the great city of Rome is, #Re 11:8; and of the calling of God’s elect among the ten tribes, scattered up and down among the Gentiles, by the preaching of the apostles; and when the fulness of the Gentiles is brought in then will follow the conversion of the Jews, and all Israel will be sawed, #Ro 11:25,26; for it is certain those sisters, Sodom and Samaria, were to be restored, and received into the church, and given to her for daughters, #Eze 16:61; thus the conversion, of the Gentiles is signified by bringing again the captivity of Moab and Ammon, in #Jer 48:47 49:6 (John Gill's Expositor)


Ver. 53. It is disputed whether this be a promise or menace; it is most likely to be a threat; and if you consider the difference between a temporal and spiritual restitution, and the difference between an entire and partial restitution, it will be evident. Sodom and Samaria never were restored to that state they had been in, nor were the two tribes ever made so rich, mighty, and renowned, though God brought some of them out of Babylon; and yet were these words promissory, both Sodom, Samaria, and the two tribes would have been restored. The words seem to confirm irrecoverably a low, afflicted, despised state, as the future condition of the Jews for ever in their temporals.

Then; then, not before: this doth not preclude a future full restitution, but is an argument that concludes against the consequence, but a negation of the antecedent, as if it were said, If ever Sodom and Samaria may hope, then thou mayst hope for a restoring to thy former glory; but Sodom and Samaria never shall, therefore neither thou, O Jerusalem, and deluded Jews. And this may have respect to the false prophets, who deceived this people with promises of deliverance from being made captives, or of sudden restitution of all to them. (Matthew Poole's Commentary)


Ver. 53. When I shall bring again.] Or, If I bring again, which I shall never do. The Jewish doctors indeed would from this verse gather that Sodom and all shall one day be restored again; but that is like to be a long day. The Jews, as they had taken up the opinion of Pythagoras about transanimation, so they had that other of Plato about the great revolution or restitution of all things after certain years.

Then will I bring again the captivity.] The Jews were never perfectly restored, in respect to the glory of the temple, and the state of the kingdom, &c. (John Trapp's Commentary)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 76 years. I am now in my 81st year of life.
User avatar
Paidion
 
Posts: 4283
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:38 pm
Location: The Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby JasonPratt » Tue Nov 01, 2016 5:03 am

It is interesting that Trapp indirectly cites evidence that some "Jewish doctors" appealed to this verse in favor of the eventual salvation of Sodom and Samaria and thus of all people! I wonder who he had in mind?

In all four attempts at getting around the evidence, though, I notice three things:

1.) All four attempts are trying to interpret the meaning against the evident data there on the page by appeal to what they think has been established elsewhere. I acknowledge that this could, in principle, be proper procedure, but considering how strongly God promises this restoration in Ezekiel 16 I can't help but consider the attempt strained by proportion. If God had mentioned the restoration as a brief aside, I would have an easier time considering the promise as an ironic comparison of how hopeless Judah/Jerusalem must be compared to Sodom. But that isn't the shape of the data there at all.

2.) All four attempts, despite the English wording, recognize that the underlying Hebrew phraseology must imply Israel and Sodom being set free, by God, from the captivity into which God has and will send them as punishment for their sins.

3.) The force of that phraseology in this context, which must refer to previously punished captives being set free by God despite the English wording, is so strong, perhaps also the contextual strength of the promise of glad restitution, that all four sample commentaries cast around for some partial fulfillment of the prophecy anyway! -- at least for some Jews in the southern and northern kingdom, if not for Sodom's inhabitants.
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
Sword To The Heart -- metaphysical argument to orthodox trinitarianism (and thence to universalism)
Trinitarian universalist exegetics, on internet radio, or here in forum posts.
User avatar
JasonPratt
Administrator
 
Posts: 9815
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:08 pm
Location: Dyer, TN

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 21, 2017 7:14 pm

I am wondering what ya'll think of this comment:

Doug Melven, post: 72122728, member: 403678 wrote:I wonder why you skip verse 46 of this chapter?

16:46
And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

When we look at this verse we can clearly see that God is not talking about the actual city of Sodom.
But He is saying that Israel in this instance is Sodom and her daughters.


Some translations read like that, but some others as this:

New International Version
Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby davo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:24 pm

Your friend Doug Melven is absolutely correct… this whole chapter (CONTEXT) is about the 10 northern tribes and two southern tribes, i.e., those tribes constituting Israel and Judah. Again the text makes use of metaphor. :shock:

Thus the universalist penchant for claiming these passages speak of the postmortem salvation of Sodom and Gomorrah are sorely wrong… this is the story of Israel’s covenant restoration; just read verses 59-60 — ‘covenant’ belonged to collective Israel.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1933
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby Origen; » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:20 pm

One commentary states:

"The prophet here considers Samaria and Sodom as two cities still subsisting; though Sodom had been long since destroyed, and Samaria had been overthrown one hundred and twenty-seven years before this prophecy of Ezekiel was delivered."

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/16-46.htm
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby davo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:30 pm

Exactly… that is the historical basis for the prophetic (metaphoric) dirge against the tribes of Israel/Judah… read the WHOLE chapter (context) and this is plain. Further… at your link read Gill’s thoughts on this.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1933
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby Origen; » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:24 am

Another commentary says:

"...Samaria (at the north) was on the left, and Sodom on the right. Sodom is spoken of poetically as if still in existence."

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/ezekiel/16-46.htm

I guess this comment is based on the KJV which has the word "is" in italics, since it isn't in the Hebrew. As noted earlier some versions say "was" (or use the past tense) instead in speaking about Sodom.
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
Origen;
 
Posts: 882
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2016 6:43 pm

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby davo » Fri Dec 22, 2017 4:12 am

Origen; wrote:Another commentary says:

"...Samaria (at the north) was on the left, and Sodom on the right. Sodom is spoken of poetically as if still in existence."

So you are just making my case for me and yet you still can’t see it. The operative word above being “poetically”… NOT needing to be of LITERAL existence though MAKING THE POINT nonetheless “poetically”… dare I say it, metaphorically!!

And just check the words immediately following that quote… “They were both the spiritual sisters of Judah,…” — “spiritual sisters” — this doesn’t allow you to faithfully read the text according to a straight-jacked literalism, at least not an honest reading anyway.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1933
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby JasonPratt » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:14 am

Three sisters, Samaria, Judah, and Sodom.

If Sodom represents Judah, who does Judah represent? If Sodom doesn't represent Judah, and if the prophecy is only about the covenant of Israel, who does Sodom represent? The ten tribes of the northern kingdom? Then who does Samaria represent? (Benjamin?!? -- why the heck would Benjamin not be included in Judah's southern kingdom as usual? -- or is Sodom supposed to represent Benjamin's tribe, of all things, so that Benjamin would be regarded as Judah's older sister, even spiritually??)

If Samaria is only a poetic figure, and thus not the northern ten tribes, who do they represent if the whole thing is only a poetic figure for the twelve tribes of Israel and their covenant? Does Samaria represent Judah instead of the northern ten tribes?

If the whole thing is a poetic figure and nothing other than a poetic figure, who does Judah represent if not Judah? Does Judah represent the ten tribes of the northern kingdom?? -- then who does Samaria poetically represent, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin?!

At some point poeticizing the whole thing leaves nothing of the twelve tribes over; and three sisters leaves one sister unaccounted for if the whole thing is only about the two kingdoms.


The other solution is that Judah represents the southern kingdom (of Judah and Benjamin); Samaria represents the somewhat recently destroyed northern kingdom (of the ten other tribes, splitting off from Judah and thus the younger sister); and Sodom represents the kingdoms of Sodom and its tributary cities, destroyed long ago, but related by family to Abraham through Abraham's brother Lot (and formerly an ally of Abraham's tribe) thus plausibly an older sister.

And yes, I've read the whole chapter, I comment on it in detail. :roll:
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
Sword To The Heart -- metaphysical argument to orthodox trinitarianism (and thence to universalism)
Trinitarian universalist exegetics, on internet radio, or here in forum posts.
User avatar
JasonPratt
Administrator
 
Posts: 9815
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:08 pm
Location: Dyer, TN

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby Agnostic Gabe » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:26 am

Probably looking at this from an overly simplistic level, but "restoring them to their captivity" really feels like, in modern terms, an oxymoron. Typically restore has a positive connotation. In fact, I don't think I have ever heard the term restore used to bring about a negative result.

"I will restore them to their former glory!"
vs
"I will restore them to their former shame!"

The second statement does not follow.

Obviously translating things is very difficult and often imprecise, especially if the same word can be opposite things (that is REALLY hard to wrap my head around, honestly).

Anyhow, I think it is hard sell to bring this meaning. At least, to me.
Agnostic Gabe
 
Posts: 736
Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 4:55 pm

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby davo » Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:13 pm

JasonPratt wrote:The other solution is that Judah represents the southern kingdom (of Judah and Benjamin); Samaria represents the somewhat recently destroyed northern kingdom (of the ten other tribes, splitting off from Judah and thus the younger sister); and Sodom represents the kingdoms of Sodom and its tributary cities, destroyed long ago, but related by family to Abraham through Abraham's brother Lot (and formerly an ally of Abraham's tribe) thus plausibly an older sister.

That seems plausible to me… covenant breach and covenant renewal (vss. 8, 59-51) for Israel / Judah were due to their “abominations” typified, via association / identification with the likes of heathen Samaria and Sodom. There is an example here of the greater picture of what God did for collective Israel, which He then would affect to those beyond… in this case, Samaria and Sodom, although in this instance their restoration signals or is the prelude to Israel’s restoration (vs. 55). As mentioned in a previous post I don’t see this as a future postmortem expectation but rather, an historical reality of the past.
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1933
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby Cindy Skillman » Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:36 pm

I would say (and this is just me, I guess) that "captivity" in this case refers to the actual captives. Just the same way, "the dispersion" or "the diaspora" refers not to the act of dispersing, but rather to those who dispersed (or were dispersed). So the "diaspora" is a group of people who were and are dispersed among the gentile lands. Captivity refers to those who were taken captive in the same way. I think the term for this literary device is "metonymy." When I look it up it seems to be right. If not, anyone who knows, please share, because I can't remember for sure.
. . . we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of everyone, especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10)

http://www.journeyintotheson.com
User avatar
Cindy Skillman
Administrator
 
Posts: 4248
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:11 am
Location: South Dakota, USA

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby davo » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:52 pm

^^^^^^^Yep pretty much^^^^^^^
“...the power and mercy of God’s grace is NOT limited to man’s ability to comprehend it...”
User avatar
davo
 
Posts: 1933
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 6:10 am
Location: Brisbane Australia

Re: God will restore Sodom's CAPTIVITY!!! not fortunes.

Postby JasonPratt » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:52 am

davo wrote:
JasonPratt wrote:The other solution is that Judah represents the southern kingdom (of Judah and Benjamin); Samaria represents the somewhat recently destroyed northern kingdom (of the ten other tribes, splitting off from Judah and thus the younger sister); and Sodom represents the kingdoms of Sodom and its tributary cities, destroyed long ago, but related by family to Abraham through Abraham's brother Lot (and formerly an ally of Abraham's tribe) thus plausibly an older sister.

That seems plausible to me… covenant breach and covenant renewal (vss. 8, 59-51) for Israel / Judah were due to their “abominations” typified, via association / identification with the likes of heathen Samaria and Sodom. There is an example here of the greater picture of what God did for collective Israel, which He then would affect to those beyond… in this case, Samaria and Sodom, although in this instance their restoration signals or is the prelude to Israel’s restoration (vs. 55). As mentioned in a previous post I don’t see this as a future postmortem expectation but rather, an historical reality of the past.


If the restoration of Samaria and Sodom signals or is the prelude to Israel's restoration, and you don't see this as a future post-mortem expectation but rather an historical reality of the past (I suppose you mean our historical past, not Ezekiel's historical past!?), which historical reality of the past did you mention in that previous post for the restoration of Sodom that signaled the prelude to the also-already-historically-past restoration of Israel to their already-historically-past covenant renewal?

Also, since the prophecy (as far as the wording goes) indicates their captivity shall be reversed at the same time, how are you getting the restoration of Samaria and Sodom as a prelude to Israel's restoration?

And if you think it's plausible that (as I argued) Samaria represents the somewhat recently (in Ezekiel's day) destroyed northern kingdom of the ten tribes of Israel (somewhat recently destroyed compared to Sodom), why do you consider the restoration of the ten tribes (already historically past in your account) to be the prelude to the restoration of Judah/Benjamin (already historically past in your account)?
Cry of Justice -- 2008 Novel of the Year (CSPA retailer poll).
Sword To The Heart -- metaphysical argument to orthodox trinitarianism (and thence to universalism)
Trinitarian universalist exegetics, on internet radio, or here in forum posts.
User avatar
JasonPratt
Administrator
 
Posts: 9815
Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:08 pm
Location: Dyer, TN


Return to Discussion Negative

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests