I don’t know about you guys, but I have never come across a persuasive argument against Ultimate Reconciliation. All of them use tired and frankly stupid arguments. So I have decided to try and come up with a reasonable refutation of UR, mainly because I want to see if it can be done. I mean we all want the truth right? I know Luke already tried doing such a thing but, no offence to him, his article was entirely unconvincing. So any thoughts and arguments for or against UR would be much appreciated.

(Btw I completely believe in UR for those that don’t know me yet on here).

I’ve been thinking about this for a while; What are the Best Arguments for ECT? If we can prove ECT then those arguments would be the best ones to refute universalism. I look forward to what you come up with.

A few years ago, while still a staunch Calvinist, I found myself considering UR because of the Scriptures that seem to support it. What kept me believing ECT were “all the places” that say punishment is “eternal.” What opened the door for UR was learning that “aionios” is open to interpretation.

So, from my experience, one of the best ways to keep people from UR is to focus on the finality/eternality inherent in the word “aionios.” Obviously it’s better if an ECT-er can show that aionios MUST mean “eternal,” or failing that, to show that the evidence at least weighs in more heavily on the side of understanding aionios as “eternal” than anything else.

Another argument is just to rest on the preponderance of Christian tradition that is against UR. Therefore, the argument goes that UR is outside the bounds of what we understand “Christianity” today to mean. I’ve heard traditional evangelicals say, “If you want to believe that everyone ends up in heaven, fine–just don’t call yourself a Christian!”

Consequently, this is why it’s important for EUs to show the belief in UR in the early church. (One of the main reasons that this will be an uphill battle for EUs is that most people in institutional traditional churches today show zero interest or awareness that many of the things we associate with “Christian” practice and theology are barely-baptized pagan practices introduced by Greco-Roman background believers hundreds or years after Christ)

“Consequently, this is why it’s important for EUs to show the belief in UR in the early church. (One of the main reasons that this will be an uphill battle for EUs is that most people in institutional traditional churches today show zero interest or awareness that many of the things we associate with “Christian” practice and theology are barely-baptized pagan practices introduced by Greco-Roman background believers hundreds or years after Christ) ” - NealF

So true, NealF! Christianity is littered with Paganism. One huge barrier for me as I looked for a “christian church” after coming out of generations of Paganism was, it really didn’t look all that different. Yes, Christianity had it’s own little twist on it but, the truth is, there are still the rites and passages, the celebrations (Christmas is Sun god worship and Easter is a fertility goddess), etc. Constantine merged the two to control the masses.

Wow that’s crazy Kelly, I’m really curious about your story now. I would also like to hear how you saw the Church as similar to Paganism. I’ve read Pagan Christianity so I have a sense of what’s amiss, but I would love to hear from someone who came out of it explain how close the church is to it.

i don’t have that background, but i noticed paganism in church as well…mainly in the sense of attempting to appease God or manipulate Him into giving you good oracles (prophecies), luck, or blessings.
to me that’s no different to trying to appease the god of rain so that your crops grow, or the goddess of spring so that winter will end, etc etc.
i’m putting it badly, but it seemed like God was being treated like a pagan deity: like an arbitrary, random and petty force of nature.

God is, of course, greater than this…and while i can understand that people need to grow in their understanding of God, and sometimes this can be a stepping stone on the way, it still seems to miss the point of God, and the reason why He is so much better than any pagan god out there!

saying that, there are aspects of paganism that i admire…things which i feel the totalitarian church persecuted out of the common people, but weren’t actually bad when viewed from a Christian point of view. but that’s for another day!

as for refuting Universalism…it’d be interesting to see some less unconvincing arguments. but Robin Parry did include a large number in TEU.

personally, i’ve heard nothing so far that has made me actively doubt UR for very long (since i embraced it only a couple months ago!!!) and indeed, one of the things that convinced me was not only that the counter-arguments were really flawed, but also that they reeked of falseness. they didn’t sound TRUE to me, and universalism, though i’m still sometimes doubtful, really does connect the dots better. there’s loads more to learn, but at least what i’ve learned so far MAKES SENSE in this new light.

but if you can find some real counterarguments for us to consider, that’d be great…it’s good to wrestle with these things.

The best evidence remaining against universalism, in my experience, is that sometimes the scriptures talk about punishment and/or privation without happening to mention any assurance or even hope of salvation from sin beyond it, in immediate or even nearby context.

I say evidence, because to make an argument out of this requires something like:

1.) This is a clear statement which should be taken over against apparent implications otherwise.

2.) This is a clear statement which should be taken over against apparently clear statements otherwise because…

2a.) because we can’t think of any reason to arbitrate between them and risking otherwise is too unsafe.

2b.) because bleep evildoers (except us), that’s why.

2c.) because… I have work elsewhere to do and can’t think about that right now.

(That happens to be literally true for me at the moment, as an excuse for not coming up with a 2c or afterward. But I find it to be a somewhat common if tacit justification, too.)

I’m so sorry, I just noticed your post. Still getting used to how a forum works.
I haven’t read Pagan Christianity so, I can’t really comment on it. If you have a certain question from it, I can answer that. I have seen shocking parallels that I wasn’t looking for and didn’t even want to see between paganism and christianity. After a few years Yehovah showed me things I am not sure how to share. Things that bring weeping, even now. I’m not sure where to start. It is deep and goes back thousands of years, these similarities, and continue to this day. What I mentioned here, Christmas and Easter, are the same “holidays” of my Pagan background which include sun god worship and fertility rites. The worship of false gods. The traditions of C & E that are practiced in christianity are spiritual, they mean something in the spirit, they have spiritual power, especially when the priests of the Almighty are involved. I don’t think christians understand what they do, how spiritual things really work. Their practice of these things sets certain things in motion in the spirit. Not all, but, many Pagans know this working in the spirit (not Yehovah’s Spirit) is powerful to move things in the spiritual and natural realms. Christians say “spiritual things” are true because the Bible says it but, they don’t understand. (Sorry, not all christians. just generalizing). I am going to say here that Yehovah is still Sovereign but, that is no excuse to side with evil. Easter or Ishtar (she has several names and you see her in all societies and time) worship, from ancient times, includes the priests of Easter impregnating virgins on an alter at the sunrise service (this is where the sunrise service in chrisitanity comes from) then, they sacrifice the infants born from the previous year and dye eggs (symbol of fertility) in the blood of those infants (and, christians still dye eggs). Christians, ignorantly partake of Easter worship in the spirit. If we are to worship in the Spirit [of the God of the Bible], this is not the way to do it. Israel did it and God was not pleased with them. He has not changed.
*** “Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them (false gods), after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. Thou shalt not do so unto Yehovah thy God: for every abomination to Yehovah, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.”
(Deu 12:29-32)
The burning of sons and daughters in the fire is part of the worship of Chemosh (also, Moloch/Molech and Baal) who, incidentally, bears extreme resemblance to Santa Claus and pagan traditions spill over into traditions christians observe and do at Christmas. This is not even skimming the surface of just Christmas and Easter. If I wrote to you for days, I’d be barely skimming the surface. In essence, Yehovah has set days He wants us to meet with Him. These should be the days His people observe and celebrate. There will be a thread started soon about this very topic. It is so overlooked yet, so important! See you there? Shalom, son of truth!

I think you are right. Interestingly, Chemosh, (aka Molech) who also disguises himself as Santa. Is the false god that required child sacrifices in exchange for prosperity for another year. The idol was sometimes made of metal and hollow. The priests would start a fire in the belly of the god. When the idol was cherry red, parents would take a list of areas they desired prosperity and give it to the priests then, put their child in the lap of the god.
To me, it looks very much like aborting a baby to rid oneself of the financial burden of raising him/her and ensure the opportunity to get an education, a good job, a successful career, etc. It makes me wonder if there may be a connection between our spiritual beliefs/traditions/practices and abortion.

bleep = ?

Whoa that is fascinating Kelly S, I look forward to your post on it all. And auggybendoggy I think Jason was just alluding to how spiteful and heartless some people who believe in ECT can be (ie Westboro Baptist Church). Yeah i’m still working on a refutation, though I’ve been kinda busy lately, I’ve started it out from an Armenian’s perspective. I might actually have to write 2 papers since both groups have different ways of understanding the scriptures

Concerning your OP awakening, it was studying anti-UR material that was key to me coming to believe in UR. The more I studied anti-UR material, the more I found that their arguments were usually illogical and unscriptural, often completely ignoring what scripture says.

For example, in Mt. 25, sheep and goats passage, much todo is made of “eternal punishment”, but the fact that the judgment in that passage is based on works, how one actually lives, and not on “belief” is completely disregarded. They make the passage about “belief” but the passage was spoken as a warning to believers and apparently meant to encourage believers to treat people rightly, especially the less fortunate.

There are so few passages that can even be interpreted to mean endless punishment, that once one gets past the biasedness of English translations, ECT is very hard to support in scripture. And btw, the reason I studied anti-UR material was because I did not want to believe in UR because deep inside I knew it would cost me.

The biggest thing in favor of ECT is Tradition and Majority. But of course, neither of these is “proof” in and of themselves. I find that the majority is rarely correct. And though I value tradition, I also recognize that tradition often nullifies the power of God and opposes the truth.

HI Sherman,

The biggest thing in favour? Yes but also the biggest support! In my mind I have always doubted the concept of ECT. I cocluded it was simply a useful tool for achieving Power and Privelege, putting the fear of Hell in to the people’s hearts over many centuries. Thus Churches, Cathedrals were always filled to the brim: Divine Right of Kings (off with your head) and the Inquisition (screw yr thumbs) ensured that every knee should bow. Ironically maybe over the last 50 years or so ECT has lost its power thus the reason today why the pews are empty!

I am fortunate to belong to a Church here in Barcelona where relationship thrives, the Church is full, and, though probaly most have not heard the term EU / UR, sermons are directed that way (see the Topic My First Sermon on Evangelical Universalism by Revd Andrew Tweedy on this Forum).

God bless

Hey Michael,
I didn’t mean that tradition and majority were significant factors to me, but to many people. Many people believe things, all manner of things, because that’s what they’ve always been taught. And many people have a much higher respect for the accepted traditions of the church than others do, even though the church does have such a dark side to its history. But mostly, people believe in their own traditions, whatever beliefs and doctrines that they were either born into physically or spiritually. Relatively few believers make radical changes in their theology from the group they are first introduced to the Lord in. Relatively few Calvinists change to see things like an Arminianist, and visa-versa. Relatively few Catholics become Protestants, and fewer still Protestants become Catholics. Once a person is born again into one of these “families” it is very difficult to change, to rethink the values and concepts that are ingrained in them in their early foundational years as believers. And ECT/Hell is a foundational concept that influences to some degree every aspect of their lives. Also, all the people, leaders whom they’ve come to respect believe in ECT.

I’m glad that your fellowship is so grace-based. I thought that the fellowships I’ve been involved in were very grace-based also and open to a wide range of beliefs. But over the last couple of years I have found that ECT is one doctrine that is so foundational, that even these groups have shifted from grace, faith, and inclusion to law, fear, and exclusion.

Hi Sherman and many thanks. Fully understood and appreciated your position. I am myself new to the Forum and to EU. But two things I have pretty clear myself and even more so reading your posts and topics and many others on the Forum, is the belief that God loves everyone whatever their position, and that immediately encourages our love for and understanding of everyone we know whatever their belief or non-belief. But I am very much on a learning curve so need help and the Forum certainly is a great help!

Michael

Here’s a link which may provide some food for thought on arguments against CU …

hopebeyondhell.net/blog/faq-3/