Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Arguments/positions against Evangelical Universalism.

Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:11 pm

I honestly don't know what to make if Catholicism (ironically "Catholic" literally means "Universal"), but I know they are big on those they consider Saints especially claims of miracles and visions.

What concerns me here is the claim that their canonized Saint Padre Pio saw Martin Luther in Hell being tormented in a vision. You can call
me something of a church hopper but I'm trying to understand and learn as muchas I can, but I want to know your take on the matter.

Link to claim down below.

http://tradcatknight.blogspot.ca/2016/1 ... n.html?m=1

I'd appreciate the help, especially if they're are experts on Catholicism and/or Lutherism here.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:13 pm

I go along with the saints and mystics visions. Pio had the stgmata so his vision is very, very, very, very likely to be true.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:25 pm

Nope, I don't buy it, nor any other 'vision of hell' story told by a nonbinlical author. Our religious beliefs should be based on what the Bible says and metaphysics, not unverifiable claims.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:33 pm

And the Thomist metaphysics of Thomas Aquinas is reality and the Bible confirmed by Pio.


Thomism is the philosophical school that arose as a legacy of the work and thought of Thomas Aquinas (1225–1274), philosopher, theologian, and Doctor of the Church. In philosophy, Aquinas' disputed questions and commentaries on Aristotle are perhaps his most well-known works. In theology, his Summa Theologica is one of the most influential documents in medieval theology and continues to be the central point of reference for the philosophy and theology of the Catholic Church. In the 1914 encyclical Doctoris Angelici[1] Pope Pius X cautioned that the teachings of the Church cannot be understood without the basic philosophical underpinnings of Aquinas' major theses:

The capital theses in the philosophy of St. Thomas are not to be placed in the category of opinions capable of being debated one way or another, but are to be considered as the foundations upon which the whole science of natural and divine things is based; if such principles are once removed or in any way impaired, it must necessarily follow that students of the sacred sciences will ultimately fail to perceive so much as the meaning of the words in which the dogmas of divine revelation are proposed by the magistracy of the Church.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:01 pm

Should it be noted that there is no record on what Padre said on Luther besides this statment which is what another guy says that Padre said ?
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:03 pm

Yes. If he had the vision it was most likely true though. Pio had the stigmata and the RCC is based on Thomist metaphysics. St. Teresa of Avila had a vision of hell she wrote about and she said our words can't capture the reality. This is why the Bible uses metaphor to describe it. The realities of heaven and hell are much greater than the symbols convey.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:05 pm

Here's an answer from a Catholic source.

http://thesplendorofthechurch.com/2017/ ... rk-castor/
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:09 pm

Very true. Catholics consider Protestants and Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ. They are just separate bodies.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:10 pm

That is after second Vatican right ?
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:12 pm

Well they have made statements that seem to exclude all outside the church but they have clarified what they mean by them to categorize them as brothers and sisters. They are just a separate body.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:15 pm

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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:33 pm

Visions can have many meanings. That's what I have learned, from the Lakota, Ute and Ojibwe tribal, medicine men and women.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:34 pm

In any case I lean to doubt on the vision, at least by Catholic standards considering Pio himself doesn't verify the vision.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:36 pm

If Pio didn't claim to have the vision then I wouldn't believe it.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:40 pm

Well considering that this claim comes from a man who claimed to know Pio decades after his death, these claims are murky. As in there's no actual evidence he had the vision beyond what other people say.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:08 pm

ChrisDACase95 wrote:In any case I lean to doubt on the vision, at least by Catholic standards considering Pio himself doesn't verify the vision.


Are you Catholic? I was raised Catholic but 'saw the light' and left that dogma behind years ago and never looked back.

It's prudent to exercise skepticism when someone claims something supernatural. You may want to Google 'padre pio fraud'.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:12 pm

I did look up the fruad, to many people arguing for and against it. Pio has got to be the most muddled up figures I have come come across in my Religous studies. I did judge the vision by Catholic standards, because as you can see, I am talking to a Catholic. I'm trying to get all sides of the argument from an actual theological perspective.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:13 pm

qaz wrote:
ChrisDACase95 wrote:In any case I lean to doubt on the vision, at least by Catholic standards considering Pio himself doesn't verify the vision.


Are you Catholic? I was raised Catholic but 'saw the light' and left that dogma behind years ago and never looked back.

It's prudent to exercise skepticism when someone claims something supernatural. You may want to Google 'padre pio fraud'.


I think Pio Padre was real. But his visions - were subject to interpretation. And BOTH the RC and EO churches, investigate any miracle healings. Both during their lifetime and after their death. And the RC and EO physicians - do their due diligence. Where I differ, is that saints and healers - are present outside the RC and EO churches. And can be found in Eastern, Sufi and Native American gathers. But they normally don't advertise, sell tickets or charge money. They are like the A-Team. They will help you, if you know how to find them.

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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:16 pm

Wow. I wasn't aware of this. Thanks.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:53 pm

ChrisDACase95 wrote:I did look up the fruad, to many people arguing for and against it. Pio has got to be the most muddled up figures I have come come across in my Religous studies. I did judge the vision by Catholic standards, because as you can see, I am talking to a Catholic. I'm trying to get all sides of the argument from an actual theological perspective.


Are YOU Catholic?

Like I said, exercise scrutiny. Don't take things at face value.

https://www.mcgill.ca/newsroom/channels ... ill-212134
Granted unprecedented access to the Vatican archives, Luzzatto unearthed a letter from Padre Pio himself in which the monk asks for a secret delivery of carbolic acid — a discovery which helps explain why two successive popes regarded Padre Pio as a fraud, until pressure from Pio-worshipping pilgrims forced the Vatican to change its views.


And his marks weren't even where Jesus was nailed. Romans crucified people by their wrists, not their hands.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:03 pm

I did some research and Wikipedia says his stigmata was valid.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padre_Pio


They do list controversies but Pope John Paul II canonized him.


Pope Paul VI, in the mid-1960s, firmly dismissed all accusations against Padre Pio of Pietrelcina.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby ChrisDACase95 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:15 pm

Am I a Catholic ? I consider myself betwen chruches at the moment.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:20 pm

St. Michael wrote:I did some research and Wikipedia says his stigmata was valid.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padre_Pio


They do list controversies but Pope John Paul II canonized him.


Pope Paul VI, in the mid-1960s, firmly dismissed all accusations against Padre Pio of Pietrelcina.


Yeah, because we all know the Pope is an unbiased source. :shock: :roll:
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:20 pm

From Wikipedia

Padre Pio became a very well-known priest. Franciscan spirituality is characterized by a life of poverty, love of nature, and giving charity to those in need. Franciscan prayer recognizes God's presence in the wonder of creation. This is seen clearly in St. Francis' Canticle of the Sun. Franciscan spirituality is focused on walking in Christ's footsteps, understanding God by doing what Christ asked, experiencing and sharing God.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:29 pm

St. Michael wrote:From Wikipedia

Padre Pio became a very well-known priest. Franciscan spirituality is characterized by a life of poverty, love of nature, and giving charity to those in need. Franciscan prayer recognizes God's presence in the wonder of creation. This is seen clearly in St. Francis' Canticle of the Sun. Franciscan spirituality is focused on walking in Christ's footsteps, understanding God by doing what Christ asked, experiencing and sharing God.


That's irrelevant to the origin of his marks.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:31 pm

Theologians debate whether the nails of Christ went into the hands or wrists. Given the fruit of Pio's life I would have to say it was valid. What we are seeing is the hatred of qaz against a beloved child of God. MacDonald would be proud.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:07 pm

St. Michael wrote:Theologians debate whether the nails of Christ went into the hands or wrists. Given the fruit of Pio's life I would have to say it was valid. What we are seeing is the hatred of qaz against a beloved child of God. MacDonald would be proud.


It's not "hatred" to suggest that people exercise scrutiny when presented with supernatural claims rather than accepting them at face value.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:10 pm

Pio was a saint. Luther's hatred against people influenced Hitler. MacDonalds loathing of God influences you. Didn't you say you were also Lutheran? All one has to do is go to Wikipedia to learn about Pio.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:14 pm

St. Michael wrote:Pio was a saint. Luther's hatred against people influenced Hitler. MacDonalds loathing of God influences you. Didn't you say you were also Lutheran?


I think Luther, Melanchthon, and the rest of the minds behind the book of Concord did the world a good service by standing up against Roman corruption and errors, but no, I am not Lutheran.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:16 pm

Read Mein Kampf by Adolph Hitler. Luther was one of his heros.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby qaz » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:18 pm

St. Michael wrote:Read Mein Kampf by Adolph Hitler. Luther was one of his heros.


I'll pass. You're taking your trolling to a new level with that kind of guilt by association.

Pio's claims should be taken with a grain of salt.
Of course, not everyone was happy with the canonization of Pio. Historian Sergio Luzzatto wrote a critical biography of Pio called The Other Christ. Luzzatto cited the testimony of a pharmacist recorded in a document in the Vatican’s archive. Maria De Viot wrote: “I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919.” She revealed, “Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid” (Moore 2007). But if the acid was for disinfecting syringes, as Pio had alleged to the pharmacist, why the secrecy? And why did Pio need non-diluted acid?

https://www.csicop.org/si/show/padre_pi ... _charlatan
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:19 pm

I'll stick with Wikipedia and St. John Paul II
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby St. Michael » Mon Dec 04, 2017 4:41 pm

R.C. Sproul has a chapter in "The Holiness Of God" called "The Insanity Of Luther". Says Sproul:

His behavior at times was downright bizarre. He was afflicted by an assortment of phobias. A well known story recalls that Luther was walking in the midst of a severe thunderstorm when a bolt of lightening crashed so close to him that he was thrown to the ground....The fear of violent death as an expression of divine judgment and punishment haunted Luther. He suffered from stomach ailments throughout his life as well as from kidney stones....The lightening bolt seared in his memory a scar that he never forgot....Not everyone reacts the same way to a close brush with death from lightening....page 76.
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby JamesAH81072 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:23 pm

St. Michael wrote:I'll stick with Wikipedia and St. John Paul II


:lol:
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Re: Canonized Saint sees Martin Luther in Hell

Postby DaveB » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:41 pm

Why would God give a vision of a protestant in Hell to a Catholic 'seer'? I just don't believe in the vision, nor in the hell, nor in Martin Luther being there.
We have yet to search out all the glories of God as revealed in Jesus Christ - how does any 'vision' compare to that, or add to that?

Just sayin' - Michael I know you have beliefs about all this, but so do I - just thought I'd add to an already rich stew of ideas in this thread. :lol:
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