UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Arguments/positions against Evangelical Universalism.

UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:11 am

This was posted on another site, Christian Forums Dot Com:

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:if you believe in a hell and that people will go there, and yet you also believe in Universalism, I take it that hell is sort of like a purgatory where it is temporal. If such is the case, I would say again that your efforts are wasted. All people will eventually be saved and have the knowledge of God that you are trying to show them. Nothing you do really matters in the long run. Sure, some may suffer for a certain amount of time, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to eternity (if they are going to be saved eventually). In other words, the problem with your belief is that what you do here does not ultimately matter in the grand scheme of eternity. Your belief leads to apathy and indifference to the things of God. That is why I will not debate with you. To me: What your doing is illogical if you believe Universalism is true. For in your book: Everyone is saved! Whooo hooo! You really do not need to care. Move on with your life! That is what Universalism is ultimately teaching here. Believers experience suffering here as being a good thing for God's Kingdom. So if hell is temporary, it does not really matter. All will eventually be saved. Yet, that is not what God's Word teaches (of course).





Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:if you believe in a hell and that people will go there, and yet you also believe in Universalism, I take it that hell is sort of like a purgatory where it is temporal. If such is the case, I would say again that your efforts are wasted.


Why are efforts wasted? If you had a child would it not matter to you if she went to hell first rather than directly to heaven?

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:All people will eventually be saved and have the knowledge of God that you are trying to show them. Nothing you do really matters in the long run.


It matters in the short run. Therefore it matters & what humans do matters.

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:In other words, the problem with your belief is that what you do here does not ultimately matter in the grand scheme of eternity.


The truth is never a "problem". It's to the glory of God. His love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. As in antibiblical Endless Damnationist dogmas (unending torments and endless annihilationism).

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:Your belief leads to apathy and indifference to the things of God.


You've provided no evidence of that. All you see is the negative motive of fear. What you don't see is the powerful positive motivation of love in serving a truly loving God Who is worthy of being loved. Not the false caricature of God that has turned so many Christians & church goers in disgust away from God. That causes many millions of unbelievers to mock and never even consider the gospel (good news, not your horrific news). That's what your belief leads to. Love Omnipotent is not an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who so easily & eternally abandons the beings He created in His own image & likeness & suffered for.

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:That is why I will not debate with you. To me: What your doing is illogical if you believe Universalism is true. For in your book: Everyone is saved! Whooo hooo! You really do not need to care. Move on with your life! That is what Universalism is ultimately teaching here. Believers experience suffering here as being a good thing for God's Kingdom. So if hell is temporary, it does not really matter. All will eventually be saved. Yet, that is not what God's Word teaches (of course).


Everyone is not saved now & you've failed to show anything about universal salvation is illogical. What's illogical is why you deny Love Omnipotent will eventually save all. Is it because He is not powerful enough or because He doesn't want to?

Your fallen human reasoning, however, recalls where many people's hearts are at with regard to Jesus, i.e. only as a fire insurance policy. Or, in the case of others, an endless nonexistence policy. A question could be asked: are such people even saved?

If everyone thought like you, there would be no one arguing against the universal salvation position based on the Scriptures. Clearly all the apologists who argue against universalism using the Bible do not agree with your "logic". You alone are the only one i've ever heard use such an argument. Evidently with good reason.

Universal salvation is the teaching of God's Word. Your fallen human reasonings on this subject don't matter, are illogical & irrelevant:

Isa.55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

7 Myths About Universalism (by Robin Parry):
https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:03 am

I think it boils down to, what version of universalism - you are trying to present. And there are different flavors - presented on this forum. Let's look at 2 articles:


I also highly encourage folks, to read the user commentary - in the two articles. :D

The author is perhaps correct, in his criticisms. But if you look at a comment - from the first article:

Mike, I am sure you hate it when people misrepresent inclusivism but you do the same with universalism. Have you read any Christian Universalists? If you had you would know they don’t say preaching the Gospel is unnecessary or that impenitent dictators go to heaven. They say everyone goes to hell until they repent and confess Jesus. I understand your wish to distance yourself from universalism but it doesn’t excuse misrepresenting what they believe. I’m not advocating this doctrine, I just believe in integrity and charity.


Well, this would be a version of universalism - that even traditional / orthodox Christians - might buy into.
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:48 pm

Jason0047, post: 71905636, member: 356113 wrote:I said that it is an insult to believers in Christ who suffer for the cause of Christ and endure to the end and be saved if the most evil person is also going to be saved.


Why is that? Shouldn't they rejoice in the goodness, mercy & unfailing love of Love Omnipotent to eventually save all? No one deserves to be saved or even live for one second. Your complaint recalls that of the brother of the prodigal son in Luke. Morever will you not receive your reward or to be with Christ while others are in "hell"?

Also, while we're discussing the topic of reasonings which you introduced, since you don't want to discuss Scripture, why is it that Love Omnipotent doesn't save all? Is it because He is not powerful enough to do so, or because He doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby sven » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:19 am

I would go so far to say that those who use this argumentation are no true Christians at all, if they were, they wouldn't want to sin even if it were allowed, otherwise they wouldn't argue that way.

Also it's not a matter what seems fair to them but what is God's will. Also think of the parable when some workers worked all day long and others only a few hours, yet all got the same wages.

Generally I have the impression that universalists are the more sincere Christians, if all people are saved, there sure is some punishment, and who knows what it is? The ideal of everlasting torment is too gross that hardly anybody sincerely believes in it and that creates lukewarm Christians that think to avoid hell and thereby any punishment by some lip service as practiced especially by the Catholic Church.
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:11 pm

Benny Hinn - Not By Might Nor By Power

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4VFFb8MON4

In this message he says Jesus is not a fire escape...nobody is really saved till they meet Him face to face...not by saying a prayer...
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
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