UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Arguments/positions against Evangelical Universalism.

UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:11 am

This was posted on another site, Christian Forums Dot Com:

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:if you believe in a hell and that people will go there, and yet you also believe in Universalism, I take it that hell is sort of like a purgatory where it is temporal. If such is the case, I would say again that your efforts are wasted. All people will eventually be saved and have the knowledge of God that you are trying to show them. Nothing you do really matters in the long run. Sure, some may suffer for a certain amount of time, but that is a drop in the bucket compared to eternity (if they are going to be saved eventually). In other words, the problem with your belief is that what you do here does not ultimately matter in the grand scheme of eternity. Your belief leads to apathy and indifference to the things of God. That is why I will not debate with you. To me: What your doing is illogical if you believe Universalism is true. For in your book: Everyone is saved! Whooo hooo! You really do not need to care. Move on with your life! That is what Universalism is ultimately teaching here. Believers experience suffering here as being a good thing for God's Kingdom. So if hell is temporary, it does not really matter. All will eventually be saved. Yet, that is not what God's Word teaches (of course).





Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:if you believe in a hell and that people will go there, and yet you also believe in Universalism, I take it that hell is sort of like a purgatory where it is temporal. If such is the case, I would say again that your efforts are wasted.


Why are efforts wasted? If you had a child would it not matter to you if she went to hell first rather than directly to heaven?

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:All people will eventually be saved and have the knowledge of God that you are trying to show them. Nothing you do really matters in the long run.


It matters in the short run. Therefore it matters & what humans do matters.

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:In other words, the problem with your belief is that what you do here does not ultimately matter in the grand scheme of eternity.


The truth is never a "problem". It's to the glory of God. His love doesn't expire like a carton of milk. As in antibiblical Endless Damnationist dogmas (unending torments and endless annihilationism).

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:Your belief leads to apathy and indifference to the things of God.


You've provided no evidence of that. All you see is the negative motive of fear. What you don't see is the powerful positive motivation of love in serving a truly loving God Who is worthy of being loved. Not the false caricature of God that has turned so many Christians & church goers in disgust away from God. That causes many millions of unbelievers to mock and never even consider the gospel (good news, not your horrific news). That's what your belief leads to. Love Omnipotent is not an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who so easily & eternally abandons the beings He created in His own image & likeness & suffered for.

Jason0047, post: 71891398, member: 356113 wrote:That is why I will not debate with you. To me: What your doing is illogical if you believe Universalism is true. For in your book: Everyone is saved! Whooo hooo! You really do not need to care. Move on with your life! That is what Universalism is ultimately teaching here. Believers experience suffering here as being a good thing for God's Kingdom. So if hell is temporary, it does not really matter. All will eventually be saved. Yet, that is not what God's Word teaches (of course).


Everyone is not saved now & you've failed to show anything about universal salvation is illogical. What's illogical is why you deny Love Omnipotent will eventually save all. Is it because He is not powerful enough or because He doesn't want to?

Your fallen human reasoning, however, recalls where many people's hearts are at with regard to Jesus, i.e. only as a fire insurance policy. Or, in the case of others, an endless nonexistence policy. A question could be asked: are such people even saved?

If everyone thought like you, there would be no one arguing against the universal salvation position based on the Scriptures. Clearly all the apologists who argue against universalism using the Bible do not agree with your "logic". You alone are the only one i've ever heard use such an argument. Evidently with good reason.

Universal salvation is the teaching of God's Word. Your fallen human reasonings on this subject don't matter, are illogical & irrelevant:

Isa.55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

1Tim.4:9 This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11 These things command and teach.

7 Myths About Universalism (by Robin Parry):
https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/
Scholars Corner:
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists:
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:03 am

I think it boils down to, what version of universalism - you are trying to present. And there are different flavors - presented on this forum. Let's look at 2 articles:


I also highly encourage folks, to read the user commentary - in the two articles. :D

The author is perhaps correct, in his criticisms. But if you look at a comment - from the first article:

Mike, I am sure you hate it when people misrepresent inclusivism but you do the same with universalism. Have you read any Christian Universalists? If you had you would know they don’t say preaching the Gospel is unnecessary or that impenitent dictators go to heaven. They say everyone goes to hell until they repent and confess Jesus. I understand your wish to distance yourself from universalism but it doesn’t excuse misrepresenting what they believe. I’m not advocating this doctrine, I just believe in integrity and charity.


Well, this would be a version of universalism - that even traditional / orthodox Christians - might buy into.
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Wed Oct 25, 2017 1:48 pm

Jason0047, post: 71905636, member: 356113 wrote:I said that it is an insult to believers in Christ who suffer for the cause of Christ and endure to the end and be saved if the most evil person is also going to be saved.


Why is that? Shouldn't they rejoice in the goodness, mercy & unfailing love of Love Omnipotent to eventually save all? No one deserves to be saved or even live for one second. Your complaint recalls that of the brother of the prodigal son in Luke. Morever will you not receive your reward or to be with Christ while others are in "hell"?

Also, while we're discussing the topic of reasonings which you introduced, since you don't want to discuss Scripture, why is it that Love Omnipotent doesn't save all? Is it because He is not powerful enough to do so, or because He doesn't want to? Does His love have an expiry date like a carton of milk?
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby sven » Fri Oct 27, 2017 2:19 am

I would go so far to say that those who use this argumentation are no true Christians at all, if they were, they wouldn't want to sin even if it were allowed, otherwise they wouldn't argue that way.

Also it's not a matter what seems fair to them but what is God's will. Also think of the parable when some workers worked all day long and others only a few hours, yet all got the same wages.

Generally I have the impression that universalists are the more sincere Christians, if all people are saved, there sure is some punishment, and who knows what it is? The ideal of everlasting torment is too gross that hardly anybody sincerely believes in it and that creates lukewarm Christians that think to avoid hell and thereby any punishment by some lip service as practiced especially by the Catholic Church.
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:11 pm

Benny Hinn - Not By Might Nor By Power

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4VFFb8MON4

In this message he says Jesus is not a fire escape...nobody is really saved till they meet Him face to face...not by saying a prayer...
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:10 pm

~Anastasia~, post: 72139827, member: 343500 wrote:How can we in conscience reassure people to neglect their salvation, based on the hope they will be saved anyway?


Because there's "hell to pay" if they do. And it is not encouraging people to neglect their salvation, but to have a Biblical, just, loving view of Who God really is.

Because if you don't, there are many millions who have already left the church over what they see as a monstrous hypocritical characterization of a God Who is out of one side of the mouth presented as Love Omnipotent & the other side as something infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Because there are many millions more who refuse to even consider the claims of such a Christ.

~Anastasia~, post: 72139827, member: 343500 wrote: so their blood could ultimately be on our hands.


What of the blood of those i've spoken of above?


Jonathan Leo, post: 72154999, member: 405003 wrote:So should I go out and live my life the way I want??


No, you might end up with HIV, bitterness, liver disease, prison & so forth. The list is endless. There's also the lake of fire.

Jonathan Leo, post: 72154999, member: 405003 wrote:Because it's a lot easier to sin than to lay down my life.


With laying down your life comes also the peaceable fruit of righteousness & the joy of the Lord.

Jonathan Leo, post: 72154999, member: 405003 wrote:I look at a woman lustfully, I feel convicted and I stop. Should I run with it instead because there is multiple chances at salvation? Or how about getting drunk as I used love to do and still do on the odd occasion. Should I enjoy my life to this extent because there are multiple chances at salvation?


See above. And, no, unless you want to join Satan in "hell".
Is that where all your friends will be?

Also, even though there is after death salvation for everyone, it won't be worth it to live in sin for the rest of your life (which could end at any time) . What if you end up in "hell" for 100's, 1000's or millions of years? Or what if one year in hell would be so bad that it would have been far better not to have lived wickedly? Scripture makes it clear that living for God now is the wise choice.

Jonathan Leo, post: 72154999, member: 405003 wrote:As stated, il take it there is only one chance at salvation and when Jesus said those who lose their life shall find it, I'm believing Him, not some clown who has a different theology. If the Spirit of God lives within me, He we lead me in all truth. Sorry bud, you ain't cutting it with me.


I agree the Spirit will lead you into all truth. God bless.
Last edited by Origen; on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby lancia » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:31 pm

I have posted this before on this forum but it fits in well here, so I will repeat it.

In encounters with male non-universalist believers, I have observed a phenomenon I like to call the “Universalism litmus test.” It goes like this. Frustrated with the direction of the argument, they will blurt out something outrageous such as, “If Universalism were true, I would go out every night, get drunk, and have sex with all of the women I could.” That of course deserves the reply, “You are believing for the wrong reasons and thus have failed the Universalism litmus test.”
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby qaz » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:15 pm

lancia wrote:I have posted this before on this forum but it fits in well here, so I will repeat it.

In encounters with male non-universalist believers, I have observed a phenomenon I like to call the “Universalism litmus test.” It goes like this. Frustrated with the direction of the argument, they will blurt out something outrageous such as, “If Universalism were true, I would go out every night, get drunk, and have sex with all of the women I could.” That of course deserves the reply, “You are believing for the wrong reasons and thus have failed the Universalism litmus test.”


Indeed lancia. I think if the only motivation a person has for living righteously is not being punished, then that person's faith is immature.
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:22 pm

lancia wrote:I have posted this before on this forum but it fits in well here, so I will repeat it.

In encounters with male non-universalist believers, I have observed a phenomenon I like to call the “Universalism litmus test.” It goes like this. Frustrated with the direction of the argument, they will blurt out something outrageous such as, “If Universalism were true, I would go out every night, get drunk, and have sex with all of the women I could.” That of course deserves the reply, “You are believing for the wrong reasons and thus have failed the Universalism litmus test.”


Interesting comment, lancia.

What do you consider the right & wrong reasons for believing?

Is "fear" of God a wrong reason?

Do those wrong reasons apply to females too? Or just males?
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby Origen; » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:44 am

AlexDTX, post: 72156589, member: 377834 wrote:It is a pointless doctrine. We already know the salvation of the Lord, so there is no benefit in believing the doctrine.


How do you know that "we", as in everyone posting in this forum, i presume, "knows the salvation of the Lord"? I don't presume that, so i give out the gospel message here, as in for example, posting this:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... e.8027048/

If it is a "pointless doctrine", then is all doctrine aside from that which leads to a knowledge of "the salvation of the Lord" pointless doctrine?

Is the debate re "eternal security" or the "security of the believer" a "pointless doctrine"?

Is it pointless to discuss dozens of other doctrines that are unrelated to "salvation"? Does truth not matter:

"...God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved AND to come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim.2:3b-4)

Does it not matter that there are many millions who have already left the church over what they see as a monstrous hypocritical characterization of a God Who is out of one side of the mouth presented as Love Omnipotent & the other side as something infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

Does it not matter that there are many millions more who refuse to even consider the claims of such a Christ.

Do the negative fruits of the dogma of endless torments not matter:

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

Does the character of God not matter? Does it not matter to Him if His character is slandered and blasphemed as if He were Satan himself?

"What kind of God would call billions of people into being, knowing that was the unimaginably horrible outcome? The words callous, selfish, and unloving came to mind for me. Speaking of love..."

http://www.georgemacdonaldquotes.com/ge ... d-my-life/

According to the Scriptures, God is Love Omnipotent, not a mythical deception infinitely worse than Hitler, Bin Laden & Satan combined.

AlexDTX, post: 72156589, member: 377834 wrote:And for those who do not know, they will be saved anyway, according to your doctrine, so there is no point telling them either.


How is it that going to "hell" for God knows how long doesn't matter, so "there is no point" in universalists "telling them" (i.e. unbelievers) the gospel?

If you had a child being tormented in fire, would you say there is no point in saving her, because the fire trucks will be there eventually to save her anyway?

Scripture makes it clear that choosing God in this life is the wise decision & rejecting Him is foolish. So clearly there will be "hell to pay" for the wicked & there is reason to warn them of the wrath of God that is coming upon them if they don't repent & believe the gospel.

7 Myths About Universalism
https://reforminghell.com/7-myths-about-universalism/

Minimal Statement of Faith for Evangelical Universalists
viewtopic.php?f=41&t=57

"But there are those who find this an intolerable state of affairs, sometimes because of an earnest if misguided devotion to what they believe Scripture or tradition demands, sometimes because the idea of the eternal torment of the derelict appeals to some unpleasantly obvious emotional pathologies on their parts." (EO scholar David Bentley Hart) https://www.firstthings.com/article/201 ... int-origen
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby lancia » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:19 am

Origen; wrote:
lancia wrote:I have posted this before on this forum but it fits in well here, so I will repeat it.

In encounters with male non-universalist believers, I have observed a phenomenon I like to call the “Universalism litmus test.” It goes like this. Frustrated with the direction of the argument, they will blurt out something outrageous such as, “If Universalism were true, I would go out every night, get drunk, and have sex with all of the women I could.” That of course deserves the reply, “You are believing for the wrong reasons and thus have failed the Universalism litmus test.”


Interesting comment, lancia.

What do you consider the right & wrong reasons for believing?

Is "fear" of God a wrong reason?


Well, any belief that simply superficially impedes or hides negative things one really wants to do seems wrong to me. It also seems to me that love of God comes a lot closer to the right reason for belief. If one's religious belief were based on love of God, the revelation that Universalism were true would not then make one behave like an unleashed maniac, it seems to me.

So, a right reason for belief is one that WOULD NOT lead to any negative change in behavior should it become apparent that Universalism were true. A wrong reason for belief is one that WOULD lead to a negative change in behavior should it become apparent that Universalism were true.

Do those wrong reasons apply to females too? Or just males?


Indeed they would apply to females, too, if they made a similar response. It's just that I have never heard a female make a similar response to the "specter" of Universalism being true, so I didn’t include them in the story. Perhaps I should get out more!
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby qaz » Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:22 pm

Origen, the people you bring up have immature faith. The mature thing is to see righteousness as ITS OWN reward.
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby maintenanceman » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:55 pm

lancia said
Well, any belief that simply superficially impedes or hides negative things one really wants to do seems wrong to me. It also seems to me that love of God comes a lot closer to the right reason for belief. If one's religious belief were based on love of God, the revelation that Universalism were true would not then make one behave like an unleashed maniac, it seems to me.
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Re: UR is a "license to sin" & "apathy...nothing matters"

Postby davo » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:11 pm

Origen; wrote:If you had a child being tormented in fire, would you say there is no point in saving her, because the fire trucks will be there eventually to save her anyway?

Scripture makes it clear that choosing God in this life is the wise decision & rejecting Him is foolish. So clearly there will be "hell to pay" for the wicked & there is reason to warn them of the wrath of God that is coming upon them if they don't repent & believe the gospel.

I’m always intrigued by where that “being tormented in fire” is so often associated with “the wicked” and this run together with “the wrath of God” and the innocence of children; and that somehow to outplay postmortem IF something hasn’t transpired antemortem to where one must “repent & believe the gospel” — and all this in terms of “Scripture makes it clear…

Invariably in Scripture “the wicked” are in fact covenanted ones in disobedience, and NOT folks in general who have never heard the gospel, or that when they do… reject what they hear according to the hypocrisy of what they have seen. Seldom is God so blithely rejected per sé, but rather… what is rejected is the poor and shameful caricature of God religianity continues to make in His name.

So… when it comes to "license to sin" & "apathy” — therein lays your problem, IMO.
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