Matthew 25:46

Arguments/positions against Evangelical Universalism.

Matthew 25:46

Postby Origen; » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:42 am

"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

"You will note that the SAME Greek word, "αἰώνιος" is used for the English, "eternal". The one is for the "unrighteous", and the other, for the "righteous". BOTH must have the same force and therefore the same duration. There is NO reason, except for one's theological bias, to suppose that the meaning of "αἰώνιος" is different in both places. To say that hell is not "eternal", you must also say that neither is heaven, for the righteous!"


-----------------------------------------


"This popular assertion, however, is fallacious. The fact that such a claim should so long endure and conquer, is proof of the power of deception."

The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.

Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Oncce saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". [Or if it "everlasting", it is only everlasting in its positive effect]. Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/ja ... 30418a/271



"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."

"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."

"In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal." Eternity in the Bible by Gerry Beauchemin – Hope Beyond Hell
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?

Philo was contemporary with Christ & we have this translation of his words which use the same words Christ used at Mt.25:46:

"It is better absolutely never to make any promise at all than not to assist another willingly, for no blame attaches to the one, but great dislike on the part of those who are less powerful, and intense hatred and long enduring punishment [kolasis aiónios] from those who are more powerful, is the result of the other line of conduct." http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book45.html

In the year 544 A.D. the emperor Justinian wrote a letter:

"It is conceded that the half-heathen emperor held to the idea of endless misery, for he proceeds not only to defend, but to define the doctrine.2 He does not merely say, "We believe in aionion kolasin," for that was just what Origen himself taught. Nor does he say "the word aionion has been misunderstood; it denotes endless duration," as he would have said, had there been such a disagreement. But, writing in Greek, with all the words of that abundant language from which to choose, he says: "The holy church of Christ teaches an endless aeonian (ateleutetos aionios) life to the righteous, and endless (ateleutetos) punishment to the wicked." If he supposed aionios denoted endless duration, he would not have added the stronger word to it. The fact that he qualified it by ateleutetos, demonstrated that as late as the sixth century the former word did not signify endless duration. http://www.tentmaker.org/books/prevailing/upd21.html


If Christ meant "endless" punishment at Mt.25:46, why use the ambiguous aionios? Why not instead use the word aperantos ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? The answer seems obvious.

Early Church Father universalists who were Greek scholars & many others of the time did not see Mt.25:46 contradicting their belief:

"The first Christians, it will be seen, said in their creeds, "I believe in the æonian life;" later, they modified the phrase "æonian life," to "the life of the coming æon," showing that the phrases are equivalent. But not a word of endless punishment. "The life of the age to come" was the first Christian creed, and later, Origen himself (an Early Church Father universalist) declares his belief in æonian punishment, and in æonian life beyond. How, then, could æonian punishment have been regarded as endless?"
https://tentmaker.org/forum/word-studie ... n-forever/


"Adolph Deissman gives this account: "Upon a lead tablet found in the Necropolis at Adrumetum in the Roman province of Africa, near Carthage, the following inscription, belonging to the early third century, is scratched in Greek: 'I am adjuring Thee, the great God, the eonian, and more than eonian (epaionion) and almighty...' If by eonian, endless time were meant, then what could be more than endless time?" "

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter9.html

As regards the fate of the Jewish people, early in the gospel of Saint Matthew Jesus' word does correct them re the false teachings of endless torments and annihilation, as follows:

Mt.1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mt.2:6b ...my people Israel.

"Isn't it ironic that the passage most often used to support everlasting punishment is in fact one strongly opposing it when accurately understood?" (Tom Talbott, author of "The Inescapable Love of God").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Talbott
http://www.thomastalbott.com/index.php
Last edited by Origen; on Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Origen; » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:43 am

Bibles translated from the ancient Greek text not the Latin Vulgate.

Translation of the New Testament from the Original Greek Humbly Attempted by Nathaniel Scarlett Assisted by Men of Piety & Literature with notes, 1798:
"And These will go away into onian punishment: but the righteous into onian life."

The New Testament by Abner Kneeland, 1823:
"And these shall go away into aionian punishment*: but the righteous into aionian life."
*The word here rendered "punishment," properly signfies correction inflicted for the benefit of the offender. The word "aionian" is explained in the preface : which see.

The New Covenant by Dr. J.W. Hanson, 1884:
"And these shall go away into onian chastisement, and the just into onian life."

Young?s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

The Holy Bible in Modern English, 1903
"And these He will dismiss into a long correction, but the well-doers to an enduring life."

The New Testament in Modern Speech, 1910:
"And these shall go away into the Punishment 1 of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life 1 of the Ages."
1. [Of the Ages] Greek "aeonian."

A Critical Paraphrase of the New Testament by Vincent T. Roth, 1960
"And these shall go away into age-continuing punishment, but the righteous into life age-continuing."

The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, 1976
"And these shall go away into age-abiding *correction, but the righteous into **age-abiding life."

The twentieth Century New Testament, 1900
"And these last will go away ?into onian punishment, but the righteous ?into onian life."

The People?s New Covenant, 1925
"And these will depart into age-continuing correction, but the righteous, into age-continuing life."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

The New Testament of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958
"And these shall go away into agelasting cutting-off and the just into agelasting life."

The New Testament, a Translation, 1938
"And these will go away into eonian correction, but the righteous into eonian life."

The New Testament, A New Translation, 1980
"Then they will begin to serve a new period of suffering; but God?s faithful will enter upon their heavenly life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Origen; » Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:50 am

Matthew 25:41, 46 could be compared to Daniel 12:2-3...

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby JamesAH81072 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:57 am

Origen; wrote:http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf


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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby steve7150 » Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:09 pm

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

"You will note that the SAME Greek word, "αἰώνιος" is used for the English, "eternal". The one is for the "unrighteous", and the other, for the "righteous". BOTH must have the same force and therefore the same duration. There is NO reason, except for one's theological bias, to suppose that the meaning of "αἰώνιος" is different in both places. To say that hell is not "eternal", you must also say that neither is heaven, for the righteous!"







The righteous already have imperishable bodies at the resurrection so by definition they already have eternal life. So for the righteous neither heaven nor eternality depend on this verse so for them "life age abiding" or "life from age to age" or "life enduring" or "life lasting" are just fine.
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Origen; » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:11 am

Origen; wrote:"

The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end.




Sources which say aionios is used of limited duration or speak of it as including the meaning agelong, lasting for an age & similarly:

1. Vine's Expository Dictionary says aionios "describes duration, either undefined but not endless..."

2. Thomas, Robert L., Th.D., General Editor, New American Standard Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries says "166. αιωνιος aionios; from 165; agelong..."http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

3. Liddell, H. G., and Scott, Abridged Greek-English Lexicon, (Oxford: Oxford University Press) 1992: "αιωνιος aionios ", ov and a, ov, lasting for an age"

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon
http://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/166.html
https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... 263/page-2

4. Strong's "age-long...partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting."
http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

5. Helps Word Studies copyright © 1987, 2011 by Helps Ministries, Inc. "properly, "age-like" ("like-an-age"), i.e. an "age-characteristic" (the quality describing a particular age)..." http://biblehub.com/greek/166.htm

6. Abbott-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament: "[in LXX chiefly for H5769;] age-long..."
http://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/166.html

7a. The Vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. Copyright © 1914, 1929, 1930 by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan. Hodder and Stoughton, London. Derivative Copyright © 2015 by Allan Loder. "In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view, whether the horizon be at an infinite distance...or whether it lies no farther than the span of a Cæsar’s life." http://www.studylight.org/lexicons/greek/166.html

7b. In THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan)..."Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16)." http://www.saviourofall.org/Writings/aion.html

7c. The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, by Mounce, says: "indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting".
viewtopic.php?p=25207

8. A. T. Robertson in his "Word Pictures In The New Testament" in commenting on Titus 1:2 explains Paul’s words as signifying “Long ages ago” (vol.4, p.597). http://www.saviourofall.org/Writings/aion.html

9a. In the multivolume THEOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF THE NEW TESTAMENT (begun in German under the editorship of Gerhard Kittel) Hermann Sasse admits, “The concept of eternity [in aionios] is weakened” in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9 and Titus 1:2 (vol.1. p.209). He explains that these passages use “the eternity formulae” which he had previously explained as “the course of the world” perceived as “a series of smaller aiones” (p.203). Sasse also refers to the use of aionios in Philemon 15, which he feels “reminds us of the non-biblical usage” of this word, which he had earlier found to signify “lifelong” or “enduring” (p.208). http://www.saviourofall.org/Writings/aion.html

9b. "TDNT aiwnnios. In later poetry and prose aijwvnio" is also used in the sense of “lifelong” or “enduring,” in accordance with the basic meaning of ® aijwvn: Callim.Hymn., 3, 6; 4, 130; Philodem. De Deis, III, 8, 22, Diels (AAB, 1916, 4); Dion. Hal.Ant. Rom., X, 36; Diod. S., I, 1, 5; IV, 63, 4; Max. Tyr., XLIII, 43, Dübner. Cf. the distinction between nou`so" cronivh and aijwnivh in Aretaios of Cappadocia (181, 7 Ermerins). Inscriptions: hJ aijwvnio" kai; ajqavnato" tou` panto;" fuvsi", Inscr. Brit. Mus. (inscription in honour of Augustus from Halicarnass.); eij" crovnon aijwvnion, Ditt. Or., 383, 11; pro;" dovxan kai; mnhvmhn aijwvnion, ibid., 438, 13 and many similar formulations...In the LXX µl;/[ is often rendered adjectivally by aijwvnio", the sense being thus affected, e.g., in y 23ò7: puvlai aijwvnioi (“everlasting doors”) instead of “ancient doors”;y 76ò5: e[th aijwvnia (“eternal years”) instead of “years long past”...4. The concept of eternity is weakened in crovnoi aijwvnioi, R. 16:25; 2 Tm. 1:9; Tt. 1:2. This expression is simply a variant of aijw`ne" in the eternity formulae. The phrase in Phlm. 15: i{na aijwvnion aujto;n ajpevch/" (“that thou shouldest receive him for ever”) reminds us of the non-biblical usage ((® 208) and of oijkevth" eij" to;n aijw`na –µl;/[ db,[,„“slave for life” in Dt. 15:17..."
http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sho ... 939&page=8

10. Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, by Abbot-Smith, says: "age-long, eternal".
viewtopic.php?p=25207
https://archive.org/details/manualgreeklexic00abborich

11a. "One really ought to read carefully the BDAG (or BAGD, if that's all you have access to) article in its entirety with its listing of passages under the three headings with listings of passages and an attempt at careful differentiation: 1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago..."
http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/lists.ibi ... 31724.html
http://markmayberry.net/wp-content/uplo ... ternal.pdf

11b. "BDAG aiwnios...1. pert. to a long period of time, long ago cro,noij aiv. long ages ago Ro 16:25; pro. cro,nwn aiv. before time began 2 Ti 1:9; Tit 1:2 (in these two last pass. the prep. bears the semantic content of priority; on cro,noj aiv. cp. OGI 248, 54; 383, 10)..."
http://bcharchive.org/2/thearchives/sho ... 939&page=8

12. Dr. Bullinger, author of the King James Companion Bible: "aionios, of or belonging to an age...." From Bullinger's appendix 151...C. Aionios , of or belonging to an age...
https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... 455/page-3
http://www.christianforums.net/Fellowsh ... ell.44997/
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html

Most, if not all, of the above are from non-universalist sources.

Dozens, if not hundreds, more could be added pointing to the same conclusion.
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Paidion » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:09 am

Just because the adjective "αιωνιος" is derived from the noun "αιων" (age) doesn't imply that "αιωνιος" means "age-long" or "lasting for an age."
The expression "an age" often refers to a very long period of time—sometimes thousands of years.

In "The Wars of the Jews," Josephus indicates that Jonathan was imprisoned "αιωνιος." Does that mean that Jonathan's imprisonment lasted for an age?
Actually it lasted for three years.

Paul wrote to Philemon concerning his slave Onesimus:

For this perhaps is why he was parted from you for a while, that you might have him back αιωνιος.


Did Paul write "that he might have him back for an "age-longingly"? Or did Paul write that he would have him back "lastingly"?

My understanding is that "αιωνιος" as an adjective means "lasting" and as an adverb "lastingly."
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby qaz » Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:25 am

Agreed paidion. "age lasting" is a clunky ad hoc term. Nobody actually talks like that.
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Origen; » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:35 pm

Paidion wrote:In "The Wars of the Jews," Josephus indicates that Jonathan was imprisoned "αιωνιος." Does that mean that Jonathan's imprisonment lasted for an age?
Actually it lasted for three years.



The following quote comes from the url below:

" ''...as was Jonathon condemned to perpetual (aionios) imprisonment (for three years). And now the Romans set fire to the extreme
parts of the city, and burnt them down, and entirely demolished its walls.''- From Flavius Josephus, 'The Wars of the Jews, Book 6,
Section 434', trans. William Whiston."

"I haven't been able to confirm if this quote is correct. I'm sure someone here will have a copy of The Wars of the Jews, and can
confirm if Josephus used 'aionios' to denote a term of imprisonment that certainly wasn't endless, if indeed the quote is correct???"

The next post responds to it with, & i quote:

"Josephus says:

ἐφυλάχθη δ᾽ ὁ μὲν [i.e. Simon] τῷ θριάμβῳ σφάγιον, ὁ δ᾽ Ἰωάννης δεσμοῖς αἰωνίοις.

"... the latter [i.e. Simon] was reserved for execution at the triumph, while John was sentenced to perpetual imprisonment." (Tr. by Thackeray, 1926.)"

"This is talking about the capture of Jerusalem by Titus, and the sentencing of John and Simon, the leaders of the revolt. In the next book (7.118), Josephus tells how both John and Simon are taken to Italy for the triumph; he describes the execution of Simon, but as far as I can tell from a quick overview, he doesn't say what happens to John."

"In any case, the source of your quote is a bit misleading. "(for three years)" is an explanatory gloss that your source has added; it's not part of Josephus' text. From other documentation, it may be true that John's imprisonment turned out to last only three years. But as Josephus presents it, at the time of sentencing it was intended to be αἰώνιος, "perpetual." " (end of quote)

http://www.textkit.com/greek-latin-foru ... f=6&t=9602
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Origen; » Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:48 am

aiki, post: 71554046, member: 178791 wrote:No, love does not make God holy. His righteousness does, yes, that is implicit in the term "holy"; but not love. Actually, the direction of effect is quite the other way 'round to what you assert. Love - godly love - is made so by it being holy, that is, morally perfect, anathema to what is dark and evil.


Holy means set apart, different. What makes God set apart & different from fallen man are His being love and light and righteous. His light reveals what His love is which corresponds to His righteousness & righteous standards, e.g. His NT moral laws. The whole law is summed up in one word, love, not holiness, as Jesus implied.

A man can have all knowledge of what is righteous & holy, give all to the poor & his body to be burned, but without love he is nothing, as per 1 Corinthians 13. Likewise without love God would be nothing. That is the core of His being that rules everything He is and does.

In relation to human beings that is a love that came down from heaven, suffered a life in this sinful world, lived perfectly & died for the sins of every person who ever lived. Why? Is the reason He did this stated to be because God is so holy? No, it is because God so "loved" the world that He gave His Son (Jn.3:16).

aiki, post: 71554046, member: 178791 wrote:It is not a fallacious assertion to say that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallelism that is used to make equal the duration of the eternal punishment of the wicked with the eternal life in heaven of the righteous. The parallelism is plainly evident, as is its purpose. What is fallacious is to deny that this is so.


If aionios punishment & life refer to those of Mt.25:46 entering "into" such things in an aion to come, such as for example the millennium eon, there is nothing in that saying that both must be of equal duration. A judge may sentence one to a millennium of corrective punishment, but the president may issue a pardon long before that thousand years ends should this one repent. The unrighteous are said to go "into" this punishment, but there is nothing denying their coming 'out' of it should they repent. Even if they should not repent, the punishment is limited to a coming age or two, e.g. 1000 years.

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):

"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.”
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/ja ... 30418a/271

Jesus Himself spoke of aionios life in the aion to come (Lk.18:30; Mk.10:30), thus limiting it, whereas Scripture speaks of multiple aions/eons/ages to come (Eph.2:7, Rev.11:15, etc).

Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever? No.

If one wishes to teach something clearly, they use words that are definitive or less ambiguous, not words that are full of ambiguity. Therefore Christ did not teach "endless" punishment or torments that have "no end". For if Christ meant to teach "endless" punishment, why use the ambiguous words olam, aion and aionios? Why not instead use the word APERANTOS ("endless"; 1 Timothy 1:4)? Or why not use the words "no end" as in Lk1:33b: "And of His kingdom there will be no end"? Why not use the word "eternal" (AIDIOS) as in Rom.1:20 and Jude 6? Why not use the word His contemporary Philo used, APEIRON, unlimited? The answer seems obvious.

aiki, post: 71554046, member: 178791 wrote:Absolutely not. You have tried here to arrive at an assertion by way of an assumption - and an assumption that ignores the constraints of the verse itself. One must do violence to the parallel of the verse to suggest that the punishment of the wicked is limited and remedial.

Except when constrained in meaning by the sort of parallelism Matthew 25:46 uses. The fact that "kolasis" in other places in Scripture may have a remedial sense does not require that this is so in the verse in question. The everlasting punishment of Matthew 25:46 cannot be remedial if it endures as long as the eternal life of the righteous that has no end which is what the verse asserts.


You have rejected a position that the duration of life & punishment in Matt.25:46 are not necessarily of equal duration. But did not address the argument that they are of equal & temporary duration. See my comments above, including some from my previous post. Also related to this is the passage in Daniel 12:2-3, as in the following:

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

The early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:

καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]

Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.

eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet

εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]

So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further" & similarly.

3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Daniel 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte ... /dan12.pdf

2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; 3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Daniel 12:2-3, Rotherham)

2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf


https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... 795/page-4
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby sven » Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:35 pm

We often debated this passage, you might have a look here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=362
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Paidion » Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:57 am

"In any case, the source of your quote is a bit misleading. "(for three years)" is an explanatory gloss that your source has added; it's not part of Josephus' text. From other documentation, it may be true that John's imprisonment turned out to last only three years. But as Josephus presents it, at the time of sentencing it was intended to be αἰώνιος, "perpetual." " (end of quote)


You are probably right. I am not sure where I got the "three years" info. But in the pdf translation below of "Wars of the Jews" Book 6, Chapter 9, Section 4, it reads, "... as was John condemned to perpetual imprisonment.

http://www.documentacatholicaomnia.eu/03d/0037-0103,_Flavius_Josephus,_De_Bello_Judaico,_EN.pdf

I also possess an very old physical copy of Josephus,and it is written exactly the same as the document above. Not "Jonathan" but "John." And there is no mention of "three years" nor was it inserted in parentheses.
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby horan » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:10 pm

Origen; wrote:"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

"You will note that the SAME Greek word, "αἰώνιος" is used for the English, "eternal". The one is for the "unrighteous", and the other, for the "righteous". BOTH must have the same force and therefore the same duration. There is NO reason, except for one's theological bias, to suppose that the meaning of "αἰώνιος" is different in both places. To say that hell is not "eternal", you must also say that neither is heaven, for the righteous!"


It may be that this particular statement simply doesn't tell the whole, eternal story. If we take the word "eternal" to mean "age-lasting", as we've learned to do, than might not this statement be understood just as it reads? The wages of sin being death, I would take this as a statement pertaining the coming age, which some say is the millennial period, which appears to work nicely enough. In John 5 Jesus speaks of two resurrections, one of life and one of judgement. It seems to me that the Jews of Christ's time, and after them the gentiles who believed, we're always encouraged to strive for the better resurrection. It seems never assumed that any would want else but that. A common criticism of Universal Salvation is the claim that it doesn't encourage people to be better, since all will be saved anyway. I think that's a rather callous position to take, since it ignores the tremendous privilege the Jews of Jesus' day believed they would enjoy, the very great honor Christ is prepared to bestow to those who answer His call, and it also soft-peddles what might not be such a wonderful experience for those who insist on being trodden underfoot in the great wine press of God. There's very little detail provided about that, but I suspect that the better resurrection means actually better, perhaps even much, much better. if a statement such as this does point to the millennial reign of Christ, I hope to not be dead but living in Him during that time, God willing. And then, since I understand now that the salvation story continues, I suspect that those alive in Christ during the millennium will be very intimately involved in great wine press, lake of fire activity, with and in Christ ministering salvation to the great multitude. I suspect the 1000 years will be preparation for that, else what would it be for?
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Paidion » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:18 pm

And these will go away into lasting correction, but the righteous into lasting life. (Matt 25:46)


I think "lasting" is the best translation of the Greek adjective "αιωνιος." It seems to fit every context. The word doesn't refer to any specified period of time, whether temporal or eternal. The word can apply either to a short period of time or to that which is eternal, but doesn't MEAN either "temporal" or "eternal." The word is also used in describing God as "αιωνιος." Yes, God is eternal, although "lasting" may also be used to describe Him. The Greek word for "eternal," namely "αιδιος" is also used to describe God's power and deity (Romans 1:20).

So the word is correctly used of both the "goats" and the "sheep." The "goats" will endure lasting correction, and the "sheep" will experience lasting life. It so happens that the "lasting life" of the sheep will also be eternal, but "eternal" in not inherent in the meaning of "αιωνιος."

The word I translated as "correction" above is "κολασις" a word that was used to describe the pruning of plants to correct their growth. It was later used to describe the correction of children.

It would be impossible for the goats to go into "eternal correction" for then the "correction" would never be completed. Rather they go into lasting correction, and some day, God's correction of them will be completed.
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby horan » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:47 pm

Paidion wrote:
And these will go away into lasting correction, but the righteous into lasting life. (Matt 25:46)


Well, I've omitted quoting you entirely, because it all appears just above this comment. I just couldn't find the "like" button. In the Prodigal Son story, Jesus doesn't really over-dramatize the plight of that young man while he wandered destitute in a far off land. But then I've never gone hungry a day in my life. It would seem Matthew 25:46 describes a fork in the road, the fulfillment of letting the wheat and tares grow up together, and there is much very dramatic language used to describe God's corrective judgment. So, though things will certainly turn out very well for all in the end, it still makes much sense to encourage the desire for a better resurrection, given that faith comes by hearing.
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Paidion » Fri Sep 15, 2017 5:32 pm

Here's a way to "like":

Image
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby Cindy Skillman » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:35 pm

Or there's yet another way to look at it--aionios refers to the sort of punishment that is "of eternity." (for lack of a better word). French wine, Belgian chocolate, Swiss time pieces, Aionios punishment, Aionios life... I can't claim credit for that--Tom Talbot gets the nod. The goats get the sort of punishment/correction God (who alone is eternal) hands out. (That is to say, the sort of correction that succeeds in actually *correcting* the fault.) The sheep get the sort of life God (who IS the life) hands out. Simple.
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Re: Matthew 25:46

Postby horan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:14 pm

Cindy Skillman wrote:Or there's yet another way to look at it--aionios refers to the sort of punishment that is "of eternity." (for lack of a better word). French wine, Belgian chocolate, Swiss time pieces, Aionios punishment, Aionios life... I can't claim credit for that--Tom Talbot gets the nod. The goats get the sort of punishment/correction God (who alone is eternal) hands out. (That is to say, the sort of correction that succeeds in actually *correcting* the fault.) The sheep get the sort of life God (who IS the life) hands out. Simple.


I can live with that, and pray that we shall.
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