Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Arguments/positions against Evangelical Universalism.

Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Fri Jun 09, 2017 12:40 am

"Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven, but blasphemy
against the Spirit will not.…either in this age or in the age to
come (Mt. 12:31-32; Mk. 3:29-30). This is saying that every sin
and blasphemy will be forgiven in the age to come except this sin.
If not, what is the point of singling out one sin in particular as an
exception? This is powerful testimony from the lips of Christ
Himself for hope after death! Because a particular sin will not be
forgiven at a given time does not require that the penalty be infinite.
Also, God‘s justice in judgment does not change! (Mal. 3:6).
All judgment is measured and with a purpose. Either a just penalty
will be exacted (He. 2:2), or its forgiveness must await a subsequent
age. (Scripture alludes to ―ages to come- Ep. 2:7). We can
rest assured that the Father‘s chastising penalty for this sin will be
just, and righteous, and in character with His loving heart for all."

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Assuming the dead are not conscious & the age to come is a period of 1000 years commencing at Christ's future return, those who committed this sin, if any, after dying would sleep through that future age (the millennium) & be resurrected at the GWT judgement spoken of in Revelation. From that point on they could be pardoned of this sin.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Paidion » Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:49 am

"αφεσις," the word that is sometimes translated as "forgiveness" entails much more than mere pardon.
I want to comment on this more thoroughly in a later post. Meanwhile you might want to consider George MacDonald's chapter on Luke 12:20 from "Unspoken Sermons Volume 1":

It Shall Not Be Forgiven

The following is a paragraph from near the end of the article:

But for him that speaketh against the Spirit of Truth, against the Son of God revealed within him, he is beyond the teaching of that Spirit now. For how shall he be forgiven? The forgiveness would touch him no more than a wall of stone. Let him know what it is to be without the God he hath denied. Away with him to the Outer Darkness! Perhaps that will make him repent.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:24 pm

Paidion wrote:"αφεσις," the word that is sometimes translated as "forgiveness" entails much more than mere pardon.
I want to comment on this more thoroughly in a later post. Meanwhile you might want to consider George MacDonald's chapter on Luke 12:20 from "Unspoken Sermons Volume 1":

It Shall Not Be Forgiven

The following is a paragraph from near the end of the article:

But for him that speaketh against the Spirit of Truth, against the Son of God revealed within him, he is beyond the teaching of that Spirit now. For how shall he be forgiven? The forgiveness would touch him no more than a wall of stone. Let him know what it is to be without the God he hath denied. Away with him to the Outer Darkness! Perhaps that will make him repent.


I'm wondering how this last paragraph would harmonize with the sin not being pardoned or forgiven in this age & the next age. Since it speaks of the possibility of the sinner repenting in outer darkness. That repentance would supposedly lead to forgiveness & the sinner not being punished for two ages. This appears to be an apparent contradiction. Or would the sinner who repented in outer darkness continue to be punished or not forgiven till the end of the 2 ages? Or does the punishment only need to last into the coming eon & not through all of it till its end?
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:11 pm

Are these examples of unpardoned or unforgiven sins:

Isa 22:14
New American Standard Bible
But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.


Matthew 6:15New International Version (NIV)
15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby davo » Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:37 pm

Origen; wrote:Are these examples of unpardoned or unforgiven sins:

Isa 22:14
New American Standard Bible
But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

No not really, at least not according to this rendition… as you can see said forgiveness would take place at death (until you die), but not before. According to Paul… “the wages of sin is death” NOT ECT. Paul further says… “For he who has died has been freed from sin.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:16 pm

Paidion wrote:"αφεσις," the word that is sometimes translated as "forgiveness" entails much more than mere pardon.
I want to comment on this more thoroughly in a later post. Meanwhile you might want to consider George MacDonald's chapter on Luke 12:20 from "Unspoken Sermons Volume 1":

It Shall Not Be Forgiven

The following is a paragraph from near the end of the article:

But for him that speaketh against the Spirit of Truth, against the Son of God revealed within him, he is beyond the teaching of that Spirit now. For how shall he be forgiven? The forgiveness would touch him no more than a wall of stone. Let him know what it is to be without the God he hath denied. Away with him to the Outer Darkness! Perhaps that will make him repent.


hey Paidion, Both you and George are considering these word to be directed to you... Both of you, George in his time and you in your time. It is possible that the writer of Hebrews was talking to..... Well, the Hebrews of his time. :shock: The Hebrews that would not hear and obey Christ's warnings were the ones who would not be forgiven... In the sense that they would realize destruction. As per the prophets. :o

Yep, Christ wanted His kinsmen to repent. He was the last prophet to be sent to Israel before God's judgment. :shock:

You continue to turn away from that historical truth about who Christ was sent to and what his mission was. :D
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby davo » Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:42 pm

maintenanceman wrote:Yep, Christ wanted His kinsmen to repent. He was the last prophet to be sent to Israel before God's judgment. :shock:

And here’s an example of THAT very thing…
Lk 13:3-5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Jesus’ “you” was the audience to whom he spoke, i.e., Israel.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Tue Jul 11, 2017 1:13 am

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Are these examples of unpardoned or unforgiven sins:

Isa 22:14
New American Standard Bible
But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

No not really, at least not according to this rendition… as you can see said forgiveness would take place at death (until you die), but not before. According to Paul… “the wages of sin is death” NOT ECT. Paul further says… “For he who has died has been freed from sin.


What if the resurrected sinner continues sinning & blaspheming upon his resurrection? Will he need to die again for those new sins?

LK.12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

If the Spirit blasphemer will "not be forgiven", how can he ever be saved?
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:19 am

Origen; wrote:
LK.12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

If the Spirit blasphemer will "not be forgiven", how can he ever be saved?


To answer my own query:

Lk12:10 says it will not be forgiven/pardoned, just like Isa.22:14 below, though Isa.22 puts a limit to it, i.e. till death.

Isa 22:14 But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven [purged/atoned] you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

Lk 12:10, OTOH, unlike Isa.22:14, does not state the length of time the person will not pardoned/forgiven/let off, whether it is till death, forever, or for this age & the next, etc. We have to look to other Scriptures to determine that, such as the parallel passages (Mk.3:28-29 and Matthew 12:31-32) which limit the penalty for this sin to two ages, "this" age & the coming age.

Since there are Scriptures speaking of multiple future ages to come (Eph.2:7; 1:21; Rev.22:5, etc), there is the possibility that this sin against the Holy Spirit may be pardoned after the coming age.

Also, in light of the following words we may believe that the sin against the Holy Spirit will surely be pardoned:

Mark 3:28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies,
whatsoever they should be blaspheming,

If such a horrific thing as eternal punishment were the idea in Mt.12:31-32 & MK.3:28-29, would Christ have used the ambiguous words aion & aionios? No. He would have used words such as eternal (aidios, Rom.1:20; Jude 6), endless (aperantos, 1 Tim.1:4), no end (Lk.1:33), unlimited (apeiron, by Philo). Since He never used such words, He did not teach endless annihilation or torments.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Fri Jul 14, 2017 12:24 am

Some other verses from the gospel of Luke:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.

Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.

Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35

Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?

Lk. 17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”



https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:33 am

"The Scripture never declares that the punishment imposed upon any sin is that of endless punishment. And, neither in Matthew
12, Mark 3, Luke 12, or any other chapter of Scripture, are we told that penalty which includes unending divine wrath even as
interminable human misery, shall accrue to those who blaspheme the spirit."

"Wherever we read that sin shall not be pardoned, or
forgiven, the sense is simply that whatever the just pen
alty may be for such a misdeed, it will not be remitted, or
let go. It does not follow, however, from the phrase, con
cerning him "that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost,"
that "it shall not be forgiven" him (Luke 12:10, AV), that
that from which he shall not be "forgiven" (i.e., released)
is a penalty consisting of abiding estrangement from God
in the presence of eternal burnings."

"Where we read in this verse, as in the Concordant Ver
sion, that "the one who blasphemes the holy spirit shall
not be pardoned the implicit idea, conveyed through the
figure of ellipsis, is that such a one shall not be pardoned
from the penalty which justly accrues to this sin. From
a literary standpoint, it is simply incorrect to interpret such
texts as if their sense were, "shall not be pardoned," from
a penalty consisting of or incorporating a specific woe,
namely, that of eternal separation from God."

"Such verses say nothing as to the nature of the pen
alty for such disobedience; to claim that they do man
ifests a deficiency of reading comprehension. Or, in the
case of any who are aware that these texts, indeed, do not
reveal the nature of the penalty which accrues to this sin
and yet argue as if these texts did contain such informa
tion, the error then becomes that of circular reasoning,
assuming what is at issue as if it had been proved. Such
an error is exacerbated by making such arguments on the
basis of our texts under consideration (i.e., Matt. 12:31,32;
Mark 3:28-30; Luke 12:8-10), ones which are incapable of
answering such a question."

"The Blasphemy of the Spirit and Overwhelming Grace, and "Unpardonable" Sin" booklet, p.11-12)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchableri ... Spirit.pdf
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby JamesAH81072 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:29 pm

Here is something for @Origen; @Paidion or anyone else.

Matthew 12:31-"Therefore * I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Matthew 12:32-"Whoever * speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever * speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Matthew 12:31 links with verse 32 with the conjunction και(and). Here are some questions:

1.In verse 31 it mentions blasphemy(βλασφημια)against the Spirit and in verse 32 it mentions speaks against(ειπη κατα)are these two different since the conjunction has one verse saying one thing and another verse saying another?
2.Why would Jesus use βλασφημια in verse 31 and ειπη κατα in verse 32 if they mean the same thing? Why not use one or the other? Jesus wouldn't repeat himself if he uses the and(και)conjunction.
3.If they are different types of insults against the Spirit does both verses tie into "in this age or in the age to come"?
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby LLC » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:03 am

JamesAH81072 wrote:Matthew 12:31-"Therefore * I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
Matthew 12:32-"Whoever * speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever * speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.


James, according to the two verses above, whether one blasphemes against the Spirit or speaks against the Holy Spirit, neither will be forgiven. However, "Any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people." Blasphemy is defined as "the offense of speaking sacrilegiously about God or sacred things; desecration." From this definition, blasphemy itself is speaking against God or "against the Spirit" which says it shall be forgiven people.
Again, it says, "Whoever speaks against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him." Considering Jesus was the Son of Man and the Spirit of God was in Him, then blaspheming, or speaking against Him would still be speaking against the Spirit, and according to Matthew,''it shall be forgiven him."
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Paidion » Wed Dec 20, 2017 5:48 am

I am not sure of this one. But I would like to point out that the Greek verb "αφιημι" (aphiāmi) has many different meanings. "Forgive" is only one of them. Another one of the meanings is "allow" or "permit".

I am thinking that the following might have been what Jesus actually said:

Because of this, I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be allowed to people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be allowed. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be allowed to him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be allowed to him, either in this age or in the age to come.


I am not taking any definite position on this, but I am looking at possibilities. I noticed that "people" is in the dative case. That is why I placed the preposition "to" before it. The same with "him" in the following verse.

"Forgiven to people" doesn't seem to make good sense grammatically, but "allowed to people" does.

To allow some one do something doesn't mean that their action is condoned. It may indicate only that you will require no adverse consequences.

If my suggestion is correct, then blasphemy against the Spirit is not allowed and WILL have consequences.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby JamesAH81072 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:03 am

Paidion wrote:I am not sure of this one. But I would like to point out that the Greek verb "αφιημι" (aphiāmi) has many different meanings. "Forgive" is only one of them. Another one of the meanings is "allow" or "permit".

I am thinking that the following might have been what Jesus actually said:

Because of this, I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be allowed to people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be allowed. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be allowed to him, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be allowed to him, either in this age or in the age to come.


I am not taking any definite position on this, but I am looking at possibilities. I noticed that "people" is in the dative case. That is why I placed the preposition "to" before it. The same with "him" in the following verse.

"Forgiven to people" doesn't seem to make good sense grammatically, but "allowed to people" does.

To allow some one do something doesn't mean that their action is condoned. It may indicate only that you will require no adverse consequences.

If my suggestion is correct, then blasphemy against the Spirit is not allowed and WILL have consequences.


Ok but doesn't that beg the question if it's not allowed in this age or the age to come does it mean it's allowed after those ages?

Also "every sin and blasphemy will be allowed to people" so according to this translation every sin and blasphemy is allowed? So we can sin and blasphemy all we want so along as it's not against the Holy Spirit?
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:08 am

Origen; wrote:Assuming the dead are not conscious & the age to come is a period of 1000 years commencing at Christ's future return, those who committed this sin, if any, after dying would sleep through that future age (the millennium) & be resurrected at the GWT judgement spoken of in Revelation. From that point on they could be pardoned of this sin.


Perhaps they might be the ones, who experience the tribulation? And the Zombie Apocalypse, as illustrated in the linked video? All before being pardoned - of course.

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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Paidion » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:29 am

Hi James, you wrote:Ok but doesn't that beg the question if it's not allowed in this age or the age to come does it mean it's allowed after those ages?


It may lead to that question; I don't know whether or not it would imply that it's allowed after those ages.
By the way, "begging the question" has never been used in the way that you used it until relatively recently. In the study of logic, "begging the question" is assuming that the conclusion of an argument is true, and then making that conclusion one of the premises.

Also "every sin and blasphemy will be allowed to people" so according to this translation every sin and blasphemy is allowed? So we can sin and blasphemy all we want so along as it's not against the Holy Spirit?


I think I dealt with that objection in my post that you quoted.

I wrote:To allow some one do something doesn't mean that their action is condoned. It may indicate only that they will require no adverse consequences.


However, as I think about it, that doesn't seem in accordance with God's character. Surely everyone who does any kind of wrong act needs correction—including Christians. Our characters must be changed so that we will choose the good and reject the bad. So it may well be that my suggestion for translating the word as "allowed" is incorrect. Yet, if it is translated as "forgiven" your objection still stands.

If "people are forgiven every sin and blasphemy " then according to THAT translation every sin and blasphemy is forgiven. So we can sin and blaspheme all we want so along as it's not against the Holy Spirit.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby JamesAH81072 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:42 pm

So we are back to forgiven for the correct translation? If so then we still need to figure out why kai is being used. Is it being used:

1.To link the two verses together suggesting that there are two unpardonable sins and if so does both coordinate with the ages to come?
2.As an adverbial conjunction? Such as indeed(since that is one definition of kai)if so then Jesus is repeating Himself as a way to emphasize the action in the previous verse(verse 31).
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby qaz » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:12 pm

James, have you read davo's exposition? http://pantelism.com/other/blasphemy.html
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Paidion » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:21 pm

So we are back to forgiven for the correct translation?


Well... I am not back to anything being the correct translation. I was but offering another possible translation.
The only reason I referred again to "forgiven," is that the objection you raised concerning "allowed" applies equally well to "forgiven."
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Dec 20, 2017 4:39 pm

qaz wrote:James, have you read davo's exposition? http://pantelism.com/other/blasphemy.html


Yep qaz davo's point makes mucho sense but only if you view the context in the proper way. That is the rub, EVERYONE wants to read the gospels (and all of scripture) as if it was written to them. :shock:

Context is everything :lol:
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Paidion » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:20 pm

Hi Chad, you wrote:EVERYONE wants to read the gospels (and all of scripture) as if it was written to them.


Well... I would say that's a very good thing! So much of it seems to be addressed to man universally, especially the teachings of the Anointed One. After Jesus gave his teaching as to how to live (in contrast to the Mosaic laws and those of other Hebrew teachers), He wrapped it up with these words, as are recorded in Matthew 7, ESV:

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

First He speaks of "that day"—some day future to that time. It seem to refer to a day of judgment, since some hope to escape judgment by appealing to the works that they did, such as prophesying in Jesus' name, casting out demons in His name, and doing many mighty works in His name.
Then Jesus says EVERYONE who hears His words and DOES them will be like a wise man who builds his house on a rock—that will be able to withstand rain, floods, and winds. You and I, Chad, by reading Jesus' teachings and DOING them fit into that category.

If Jesus had meant only those who were present at the time, standing their listening to Him, would He have not made it plain? He could have said, "All of you people who are listening to me right now and do as I say is like a wise man, etc." But He said "EVERYONE." Yes, that included those who were standing there hearing Him speak. But it also included EVERYONE who ever would become aware of His teachings.

Then there's the passage in John 3 that contains the most well-known verse in the entire New Testament:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


Who was Jesus addressing? He was addressing one man—Nicodemus. Do His words apply only to Nicodemus? He said "WHOEVER." He spoke of God loving THE WORLD. Clearly His words applied to all people. To Nicodemus. To all who lived in the world at that time, and those who have lived in the world every century since that time, right up to and including the present.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby JamesAH81072 » Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:56 pm

I asked about kai in relations to verse 31 and 32 in a language based facebook page that deals mostly in the Biblical languages and here is what he said about it:

George Gunn-It appears to have more of an epexegetical force, clarifying the statement in verse 31.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby LLC » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:56 am

JamesAH81072 wrote:So we can sin and blasphemy all we want so along as it's not against the Holy Spirit


No. Technically speaking, all sin and blasphemy are against the Holy Spirit. I tend to agree with what Davo is saying in his post. It is not just one particular sin per se. It is the sins of the many "piled high to the heavens", or a build up of sin over time( ex. tower of Babel) until it finally comes to a head. When the "bubble bursts" the consequences of it affect many and can last for several generations before healing and restoration take place. This is Isaiah's "punishment unto the third and fourth generations."( Or something like that. I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)

maintenanceman wrote:
qaz wrote:James, have you read davo's exposition? http://pantelism.com/other/blasphemy.html


Yep qaz davo's point makes mucho sense but only if you view the context in the proper way. That is the rub, EVERYONE wants to read the gospels (and all of scripture) as if it was written to them. :shock:

Context is everything :lol:


Yes, I agree with Paidion. This does apply to all mankind. Such destructions occur and reoccur throughout history.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:03 pm

Don said:
Hi Chad, you wrote: EVERYONE wants to read the gospels (and all of scripture) as if it was written to them.


Well... I would say that's a very good thing! So much of it seems to be addressed to man universally, especially the teachings of the Anointed One.


Thanks Don, but I actually said :
Yep qaz, davo's point makes mucho sense but only if you view the context in the proper way. That is the rub, EVERYONE wants to read the gospels (and all of scripture) as if it was written to them. :shock:

Context is everything :lol:


So let's see the context of Christ's own words and the words of the Gospel writers as to who Jesus was talking to. :D

Mat 15:22 And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."
Mat 15:23 But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, "Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us."
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

And:
Mat 10:1 Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.
Mat 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; and James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
Mat 10:3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;
Mat 10:4 Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, the one who betrayed Him.
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans;
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mat 10:7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

And:
Mat 2:4 Gathering together all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Messiah was to be born.
Mat 2:5 They said to him, "In Bethlehem of Judea; for this is what has been written by the prophet:
Mat 2:6 'AND YOU, BETHLEHEM, LAND OF JUDAH, ARE BY NO MEANS LEAST AMONG THE LEADERS OF JUDAH; FOR OUT OF YOU SHALL COME FORTH A RULER WHO WILL SHEPHERD MY PEOPLE ISRAEL.'"

And:
Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Spirit, and prophesied, saying:
Luk 1:68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
Luk 1:69 And has raised up a horn of salvation for us In the house of David His servant--
Luk 1:70 As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old--

Also:
Joh 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to Him, and *said of him, "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no deceit!"
Joh 1:48 Nathanael *said to Him, "How do You know me?" Jesus answered and said to him, "Before Philip called you, when you were under the fig tree, I saw you."
Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

I could go on but I think you catch my idea. Christ was sent specifically to the house of Israel: Though 'mankind' was also the recipient of the blessing that the Messiah brought to his people. :lol:

The point is that from my perspective, the Pantelist view is that Jesus came for God's people Israel, and through that 'happening' all of us were blessed. I am agreeing with the Pantelist view... I was merely commenting to qaz about his comment about the Pantelist view, much to the chagrin about Pantelism by certain folks here. :lol:
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby davo » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:04 pm

Origen; wrote:
davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Are these examples of unpardoned or unforgiven sins:

Isa 22:14
New American Standard Bible
But the LORD of hosts revealed Himself to me, "Surely this iniquity shall not be forgiven you Until you die," says the Lord GOD of hosts.

No not really, at least not according to this rendition… as you can see said forgiveness would take place at death (until you die), but not before. According to Paul… “the wages of sin is death” NOT ECT. Paul further says… “For he who has died has been freed from sin.


What if the resurrected sinner continues sinning & blaspheming upon his resurrection? Will he need to die again for those new sins?

These are two typical questions your wrong-headed thinking naturally raises WHEN…

    1) You ignore the scriptural answers already given, i.e., in light of the text above… what makes you think there is yet more sin to be dealt with beyond the grave that Jesus’ atoning work didn’t FULLY nullify and rectify way back at Calvary?
    2) What does your take on Heb 9:27 do to your question above? Again, is such a scenario you suggest even possible? Given Jesus said… “the Scripture cannot be broken” — in light of the Hebrews passage, what does your suggestion make of Lazarus and those saints seen in Mt 27:52-53?

Origen; wrote:LK.12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

If the Spirit blasphemer will "not be forgiven", how can he ever be saved?

THAT indeed IS the problem your wrong-headed approach raises to which YOU need to supply the answer… from a pantelist perspective, such a loopy proposition does not exist.

Said ‘blasphemy’ was a generational sin, i.e., pertinent ONLY to those of Israel debasing as demonic Yahweh’s redemptive works in and through Christ ON BEHALF OF all Israel — no more, no less. As such, those committing this offence died or were deported, i.e., exiled (2Thess 1:9; Jer 23:39-40), which in biblical parlance = death; that which occurred under Titus in or subsequent to Jerusalem’s AD70 conflagrations. They did NOT experience IN LIFE the forgiveness that was theirs… thus fulfilling Jesus’ words in Jn 8:21, 24.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby maintenanceman » Thu Dec 21, 2017 5:48 pm

LLC said
No. Technically speaking, all sin and blasphemy are against the Holy Spirit. I tend to agree with what Davo is saying in his post. It is not just one particular sin per se. It is the sins of the many "piled high to the heavens", or a build up of sin over time( ex. tower of Babel) until it finally comes to a head. When the "bubble bursts" the consequences of it affect many and can last for several generations before healing and restoration take place. This is Isaiah's "punishment unto the third and fourth generations."( Or something like that. I'm too lazy to look it up right now.)


Not sure what you are saying. All sin is sin... we either have to acknowledge that Jesus took care of the said sin or you are with the evangelicals saying that we have to do something to receive that said redemption from sin....

Good luck :D
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby LLC » Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:25 pm

davo wrote:1) You ignore the scriptural answers already given, i.e., in light of the text above… what makes you think there is yet more sin to be dealt with beyond the grave that Jesus’ atoning work didn’t FULLY nullify and rectify way back at Calvary?


Davo, The way I see it, Jesus' death had nothing to do with life after we leave this earth, but had everything to do with this life ON EARTH.

maintenanceman wrote:Not sure what you are saying. All sin is sin... we either have to acknowledge that Jesus took care of the said sin or you are with the evangelicals saying that we have to do something to receive that said redemption from sin....


MM, How did Jesus take care of the said sin?
In response to the OP, the verses in question state that any sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven in this age(that present age) or the age to come. What I'm saying is that this does not compute because ALL sin and blasphemy is against the Spirit. However, there is individual sin and collective sin. An ungodly kingdom(collective sin) does not grow overnight, and it doesn't dissolve overnight either.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:04 am

davo wrote:These are two typical questions your wrong-headed thinking naturally raises WHEN…

    1) You ignore the scriptural answers already given, i.e., in light of the text above… what makes you think there is yet more sin to be dealt with beyond the grave that Jesus’ atoning work didn’t FULLY nullify and rectify way back at Calvary?
    2) What does your take on Heb 9:27 do to your question above? Again, is such a scenario you suggest even possible? Given Jesus said… “the Scripture cannot be broken” — in light of the Hebrews passage, what does your suggestion make of Lazarus and those saints seen in Mt 27:52-53?


1) If Jesus atoning work nullified sin, then why is the daily (bad news) newspaper full of it everyday?

As for Romans 6:23, i've previously referred you & others to Jason Pratt's commentary here:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7078#p103119

2) Is there a point being made amidst this flurry of queries?




davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:LK.12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

If the Spirit blasphemer will "not be forgiven", how can he ever be saved?

THAT indeed IS the problem your wrong-headed approach raises to which YOU need to supply the answer… from a pantelist perspective, such a loopy proposition does not exist.

Said ‘blasphemy’ was a generational sin, i.e., pertinent ONLY to those of Israel debasing as demonic Yahweh’s redemptive works in and through Christ ON BEHALF OF all Israel — no more, no less. As such, those committing this offence died or were deported, i.e., exiled (2Thess 1:9; Jer 23:39-40), which in biblical parlance = death; that which occurred under Titus in or subsequent to Jerusalem’s AD70 conflagrations. They did NOT experience IN LIFE the forgiveness that was theirs… thus fulfilling Jesus’ words in Jn 8:21, 24.


AFAIK the BHS is never properly defined in Scripture, so the questions remain as to what it is & has anyone ever committed this sin. In any case it is limited in its penalty to two ages, beyond which there is at least one more age, so this sin tell us nothing about final destiny.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby davo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 6:24 pm

Origen; wrote:In any case it is limited in its penalty to two ages, beyond which there is at least one more age, so this sin tell us nothing about final destiny.

HOW with any confidence can you claim this above WHEN you have already prefaced it with this below? You are being inconsistent!…
Origen; wrote:AFAIK the BHS is never properly defined in Scripture, so the questions remain as to what it is & has anyone ever committed this sin.

IF that be true then your “AFAIK the BHS” claim is false. Which I propose it is, as there is textual evidence to the contrary of your claim, as per…
Mk 3:22, 29-30 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.” …but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

There is your clearly and “properly defined” stated reason as to what constitutes ‘the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’ — attributing Jesus’ works as being those of the master of demons. << there is your definition!
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:47 pm

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:In any case it is limited in its penalty to two ages, beyond which there is at least one more age, so this sin tell us nothing about final destiny.

HOW with any confidence can you claim this above WHEN you have already prefaced it with this below? You are being inconsistent!…
Origen; wrote:AFAIK the BHS is never properly defined in Scripture, so the questions remain as to what it is & has anyone ever committed this sin.

IF that be true then your “AFAIK the BHS” claim is false. Which I propose it is, as there is textual evidence to the contrary of your claim, as per…
Mk 3:22, 29-30 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.” …but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

There is your clearly and “properly defined” stated reason as to what constitutes ‘the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’ — attributing Jesus’ works as being those of the master of demons. << there is your definition!


Mk.3:28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" 30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (CLV)

AFAIK, that's your opinion, that v.30 refers to v.29 rather than v.28, not what the passage says.

As for the rest, there is a difference between the definition of a crime and its penalty.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby davo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:05 pm

Origen; wrote:AFAIK, that's your opinion, that v.30 refers to v.29 rather than v.28, not what the passage says.

I gave NO “rather than” or even either/or, that’s your errant reading, there is NO difference… verse 30 is fully inclusive of 28 AND 29.

HOW with any confidence can you claim this above WHEN you have already prefaced it with this below? You are being inconsistent!…
Origen; wrote:AFAIK the BHS is never properly defined in Scripture, so the questions remain as to what it is & has anyone ever committed this sin.

IF that be true then your “AFAIK the BHS” claim is false. Which I propose it is, as there is textual evidence to the contrary of your claim, as per…
Mk 3:22, 28-30 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.” … “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

There is your clearly and “properly defined” stated reason as to what constitutes ‘the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’ — attributing Jesus’ works as being those of the master of demons. << there is your definition!
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:16 pm

Davo, did you at least grasp the point that there is a difference between the definition of a crime and its penalty?
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby davo » Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:27 pm

Origen; wrote:Davo, did you at least grasp the point that there is a difference between the definition of a crime and its penalty?

There may well be a difference… as you full well know, I wasn’t answering to that. I was answering to your notion THAT… “AFAIK the BHS is never properly defined in Scripture,…” — I have provided textual evidence to the contrary. That you refuse to accept the bleeding obvious, as the text make plain, is fine… but trying to divert away from your error to elsewhere is plain for all to see. :roll:
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:58 am

davo wrote:
Origen; wrote:Davo, did you at least grasp the point that there is a difference between the definition of a crime and its penalty?

There may well be a difference… as you full well know, I wasn’t answering to that. I was answering to your notion THAT… “AFAIK the BHS is never properly defined in Scripture,…” — I have provided textual evidence to the contrary. That you refuse to accept the bleeding obvious, as the text make plain, is fine… but trying to divert away from your error to elsewhere is plain for all to see. :roll:


Earlier you posted:

davo wrote:
Mk 3:22, 28-30 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.” … “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

There is your clearly and “properly defined” stated reason as to what constitutes ‘the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’ — attributing Jesus’ works as being those of the master of demons. << there is your definition!


How is that the - definition - of BHS, as opposed to merely an 'example' (of one of billions of conceivable examples) of BHS? If even that.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Cindy Skillman » Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:15 pm

I started to read all this, but it gets very technical for me, and I'm not sure it needs to be technical.

The Unpardonable Sin (in Mark)
28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.” 30Jesus made this statement because they were claiming, “He has an unclean spirit.”…


The Unpardonable Sin (in Matthew)
30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the one to come.…


Confessing Christ (in Luke)
10And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.


Who?
Jesus (obviously) is speaking--but who is He and for what was He sent? He is the last prophet of Israel the Son of David/the Son of man/the Son of God, and He was sent to the children of Israel. Gabriel said, "...for He shall save His people from their sins." Who were His people? When the woman of Cana asked help for her demon possessed daughter, He said, "I am not sent but to the House of Israel" (or something very like that). It was after Israel (as prophesied) turned away from Him that the torch was passed to the Gentiles--that we might also be saved, yes, but also that by our salvation we should make the sons of the kingdom jealous so that they would also turn to Christ.

To whom was He speaking? To the priests and Pharisees who accused Him of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebul. He was saying, in essence, that the Jews (meaning the religious authorities, which is the way I believe the gospel writers usually used that term) were calling good evil (and the companion of this is to call evil good.) If not directly calling evil good, at the least they were calling Good (the Spirit) evil. We read in the Old Testament "Cursed are they who call good evil and evil good." I think this is a kind of what we'd call Transference today. That sorry state in which the evil-doer accuses the victim of the evil that he himself is doing. Such a person is certainly cursed since he has deceived his own heart. He truly believes his own accusations. IOW, he's nuts.

What?
According to Jason (and I think he's right (you can look it up in his writings if you want his reasoning on this), the demoniac Jesus was performing deliverance on was the same He had earlier delivered from demons. He had left his "house" empty, swept and garnished. Thus the Jews held Jesus to be responsible for the man's further degraded state. It "didn't take" and the man ended up worse than at the start. So they said, "He casts out demons by the finger of Beelzebul." Jesus said to them, "If I cast out demons by the finger of Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges."

Where?
If I recall, this whole thing played out in Jerusalem--but it could have been anywhere in Israel and it doesn't matter so I'm not going to check. The point is, it happened IN ISRAEL and His words were directed at the Jews. Some theologians insist that no one save the Jews to whom He was speaking even had/has the ability to commit the "unpardonable sin," but I disagree. It IS important to note, though, that Jesus was not speaking directly to modern people today.

When?
Obviously--in ancient Israel of Jesus' day. This was not said directly to the person who reads it today. It's important to remember that--even though yes it does have applications to us today. We so often forget that, when we're reading the Bible, we are **reading someone else's mail**.

Why?
I think Jesus said this as a warning. Clearly the Jews (for the most part) didn't heed the warning. They were not forgiven in that age (the age before His death and resurrection?) nor in the age to come (the church age?) They died in their sins. In truth, I believe they weren't able to be forgiven because they had turned their backs on the agent of their reconciliation--the Holy Spirit. They regarded the Spirit as an agent of the devil. They saw themselves as good and Jesus (and the Spirit) as evil. Because of this, how could they possibly be forgiven while in that state?

We can do the same thing today. We can insist that evil is good and that good is evil. I think we see a lot of that in society at large (and no doubt occasionally, to whatever small degree, even in ourselves). To take the classic example, Hitler attributed everything that he saw as evil to the Jews and believed himself to be good and right in his attempted annihilation of not only them, but anyone who supported them and/or opposed him--and also any others who weren't up to his standards of worthiness (the sick, mentally feeble, physically defective, etc.) Hitler called good evil and he believed that the evil things he did were in fact good. He ostensibly did these evil things (at least partly) in order to perfect the genetic pool of the human race. He was even so confused that he didn't seem to recognize or somehow managed to overlook (or justify) the fact that he himself did not meet his own physical standards. He apparently truly believed these delusions of his, so how could he be saved in that state?

Some things are merely childish and petty. Things that can be overlooked because of our immaturity (which we will grow out of and in our maturing process, come to abhor) or our ignorance (which will be amended naturally as we grow.) Some things are so destructive that they cannot be overlooked but must be dealt with. Calling good evil and evil good is one of those things. I believe this is at least partly what Jesus was warning the Pharisees and priests (and anyone listening in, like us for a start) to beware of. We need to recognize the difference between evil and good. That is a really, really important thing. If we fail at it, that can't be overlooked. It won't get better until it is dealt with. Which may take some time and pain. Maybe a LOT of time and pain.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby davo » Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:47 pm

Origen; wrote:Earlier you posted:

davo wrote:
Mk 3:22, 28-30 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, “He has Beelzebub,” and, “By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.” … “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”

There is your clearly and “properly defined” stated reason as to what constitutes ‘the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit’ — attributing Jesus’ works as being those of the master of demons. << there is your definition!


How is that the - definition - of BHS, as opposed to merely an 'example' (of one of billions of conceivable examples) of BHS? If even that.

Well I wouldn’t pedantically separate the two just for arguments’ sake. Jesus said…
Jn 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends.

Here Jesus both ‘defines’ love in words, and then by way of ‘example’ as we know, matches his actions to his words in doing that very thing, i.e., laying down his life. Thus the ‘example’ confirms the ‘definition’.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:05 pm

Jackson Cooper, post: 72125218, member: 402191 wrote:Jesus said that blaspheming the Holy Spirit shall never be forgiven. What does it mean to blaspheme the Holy Spirit? Most protestants believe that it means to literally compare the Holy Spirit to something demonic like what the Pharisees did.


A definition of the sin of BHS does not AFAIK appear anywhere in the Scriptures. Neither is it ever stated that anyone has ever committed this sin, or if it is possible for anyone to do so since Christ was resurrected and went to heaven.

Mk.3:28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming, 29 yet whoever should be blaspheming against the holy spirit is having no pardon for the eon, but is liable to the eonian penalty for the sin-" 30 for they said, "An unclean spirit has he." (CLV)

The NT translation of Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart says:

"But whoever blasphemes against the Spirit, the Holy one, has no excuse throughout the age*, but is answerable for a transgression in the Age**" (Mk.3:29)

* Or "until the Age [to come]"
** An "aeonian transgression": perhaps "answerable for an age-long transgression."

(The New Testament: A Translation, 2017, Yale University Press, p.69)

“And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this AGE, neither in the AGE to come.” (Mt.12:32)

As per the Scripture passages above, the "penalty" for BHS is limited to "this age" & the "age to come". Since there is at least one age beyond those (Eph.1:21; 2:7; Lk.1:33; Rev.22:5, etc), the passages tell us nothing about the final destiny of those who commit such a sin. [Or if anyone ever committed it]. It does, however, inform us as to the final destiny of all others who didn't committ that sin, namely forgiveness, or pardon:

Mk.3:28 Verily, I am saying to you that all shall be pardoned the sons of mankind, the penalties of the sins and the blasphemies, whatsoever they should be blaspheming

BTW, David Burnfield makes an interesting point re Mt. 25:46:

"None of the sins listed in [the context of] Matt.25:46 can be considered blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

He quotes Mt.12:31:

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven." (NASB)

And emphasizes the words "any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people".

He then says "If we can believe what Christ tells us, then the 'only' sin that is 'not' forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which obviously does not include the sins listed in Matt.25:34-44."

Then he quotes from Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God...":

"Verse...46, in particular, has always been cited as undeniable proof that Jesus taught eternal punishment. Yet it is clear that the sins Jesus listed in this passage do not constitute the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Assuming Jesus did not utter this word with the intention of contradicting what he said moments before [Matt 12:31], we must accept that the sins mentioned in this passage [Matt 25:46] will eventually be forgiven. This means, however strange it may sound to us, that this statement of Jesus about eternal punishment is not the final word for those who are condemned."

(Patristic Universalism: An Alternative To The Traditional View of Divine Judgement, 2nd ed, 2016, by David Burnfield, p.220-1)

The aforementioned Bentley Hart translation does not use the words "eternal" or "everlasting" at Mt.25:46, but instead reads "chastening of that Age" & "life of that Age". Many other versions do likewise, as listed here:

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... n.8039822/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... r.8041512/

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7264

---------

https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... t.8041500/
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:46 am

LLC said:


maintenanceman wrote: Not sure what you are saying. All sin is sin... we either have to acknowledge that Jesus took care of the said sin or you are with the evangelicals saying that we have to do something to receive that said redemption from sin....


MM, How did Jesus take care of the said sin?
In response to the OP, the verses in question state that any sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven in this age(that present age) or the age to come. What I'm saying is that this does not compute because ALL sin and blasphemy is against the Spirit. However, there is individual sin and collective sin. An ungodly kingdom(collective sin) does not grow overnight, and it doesn't dissolve overnight either.


I would say that Jesus took care of sin in the sense that Adam caused sin. All were directly effected by Adams misdeed, and all were effected by Christ's cross. But in my opinion, the story of Adam fast forward to Christ, was a historical one. You have said in the past that the gospel message is for the here and now and not the afterlife. I go a bit further and say the gospel message was about the there and then as in that specific time. :D

As for the OP, I think that the BHS was a warning that was time and circumstance relative also. The very fact that there are so many really smart people on this forum and there are so many different opinions just solidifies to my mind that it was something happening at that time and place and has little or nothing to do with us.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Paidion » Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:07 pm

Chad, you wrote:I go a bit further and say the gospel message was about the there and then as in that specific time. :D


Chad, is there ANYTHING in Christianity that applies to people now? If so, what? If not, then in what sense do you profess to be a Christian? Or DO you?
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby maintenanceman » Mon Dec 25, 2017 7:39 pm

Paidion wrote:
Chad, you wrote:I go a bit further and say the gospel message was about the there and then as in that specific time. :D


Chad, is there ANYTHING in Christianity that applies to people now? If so, what? If not, then in what sense do you profess to be a Christian? Or DO you?


Actually that is a good question! I think that God continues to be with and work through people, I just feel that there is no more 'specific' scriptural basis. So as many of you will look at scripture (bible) to guide you in what you think God would want you to do or not do, I think that most the NT is time specific, and meant for a specific audience, though please don't get me wrong, I think much of Jesus' teachings were very special and we would be well served to heed, but we need to discern what is wisdom teaching and what is time appropriate... as in the apocalyptic verses. The savior of the Israel nation was set at the right hand of God. He put all things right between man and God. That works for me. It is Good News :D
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:46 am

Paidion wrote:"αφεσις," the word that is sometimes translated as "forgiveness" entails much more than mere pardon.
I want to comment on this more thoroughly in a later post. Meanwhile you might want to consider George MacDonald's chapter on Luke 12:20 from "Unspoken Sermons Volume 1":

It Shall Not Be Forgiven

The following is a paragraph from near the end of the article:

But for him that speaketh against the Spirit of Truth, against the Son of God revealed within him, he is beyond the teaching of that Spirit now. For how shall he be forgiven? The forgiveness would touch him no more than a wall of stone. Let him know what it is to be without the God he hath denied. Away with him to the Outer Darkness! Perhaps that will make him repent.


@Paidion,

Is the MacDonald interpretation supported by the Greek, e.g. the tense of the word "blaspheme" in the BHS synoptic accounts?

For example, i read one opinion that stated the Greek has "blaspheming" (or, blasphemes) the Spirit, which would imply an ongoing process. So the not being pardoned is only applicable as long as the one continues to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Should the person at any time (in this age or the next) repent & cease blaspheming, then such a sin could be pardoned. Is that a possible interpretation?
Last edited by Origen; on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby qaz » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:47 am

Origen, I've read one non-universalist opinion that blasphemy against the spirit is impenitence at death.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby St. Michael » Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:32 pm

Next, the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire. And the people were scorched by intense heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory.
And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish and blaspheme the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds. ~~ Revelation 16:8-11


God is holy. Holiness when applied to God refers to everything that separates Him from His creation and His creatures. It includes moral purity but it's not limited to that. God is self-sufficient, infinite in wisdom, all-powerful, all knowing, omnipresent. He sees the beginning from the end. We are none of these things. We are finite and limited and imitate God in certain ways but cannot be like Him in every way. He's holy and in a category all by Himself. He cannot be compared to anything or anybody. To do so is to make a categorical error. Universalists compare God to Hitler because of His fiery hell and therefore blaspheme His holiness. If God has morally sufficient and justifiable reasons for hell then hell isn't unjust. His holiness remains intact. Because of God's holiness He's in a privileged position. As finite and limited creatures we are to depend on Him in humbled trust as we walk in mercy and love. God is holy. He's no evil monster.
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Holy-Fool-P-Zombie » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:14 pm

St. Michael wrote:Next, the fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and it was given power to scorch the people with fire. And the people were scorched by intense heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who had authority over these plagues; yet they did not repent and give Him glory.
And the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and its kingdom was plunged into darkness, and men began to gnaw their tongues in anguish and blaspheme the God of heaven for their pains and sores; yet they did not repent of their deeds. ~~ Revelation 16:8-11


God is holy. Holiness when applied to God refers to everything that separates Him from His creation and His creatures. It includes moral purity but it's not limited to that. God is self-sufficient, infinite in wisdom, all-powerful, all knowing, omnipresent. He sees the beginning from the end. We are none of these things. We are finite and limited and imitate God in certain ways but cannot be like Him in every way. He's holy and in a category all by Himself. He cannot be compared to anything or anybody. To do so is to make a categorical error. Universalists compare God to Hitler because of His fiery hell and therefore blaspheme His holiness. If God has morally sufficient and justifiable reasons for hell then hell isn't unjust. His holiness remains intact. Because of God's holiness He's in a privileged position. As finite and limited creatures we are to depend on Him in humbled trust as we walk in mercy and love. God is holy. He's no evil monster.


And we can't really blame God, for the Zombie Apocalypse; - during the tribulation. I would blame it on the Devil. :x

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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby maintenanceman » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:44 pm

qaz wrote:Origen, I've read one non-universalist opinion that blasphemy against the spirit is impenitence at death.


Look qaz you either believe God is Love, or you are going to swim in a continual sea of contradictory opinions. You may be looking at the wrong sources if you think otherwise.
good luck ;)
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby JamesAH81072 » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:49 pm

Origen; wrote:For example, i read one opinion that stated the Greek has "blaspheming" (or, blasphemes) the Spirit, which would imply an ongoing process


Where did you read that at?
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Re: Spirit blasphemy - unpardonable sin

Postby Origen; » Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:34 pm

JamesAH81072 wrote:
Origen; wrote:For example, i read one opinion that stated the Greek has "blaspheming" (or, blasphemes) the Spirit, which would imply an ongoing process


Where did you read that at?


Check out p.4-6 at:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/unsearchableri ... Spirit.pdf
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