Yep. One step: instead of one kind of post-mortem inconvenience for impenitent sinners, there’s another related kind of post-mortem inconvenience for some sinners. There’s no more step inherently involved than for switching to annihilationism.
No step: all penitents cooperating with God still don’t have to go through the disciplinary process (however long or short or intense or soft that may be). The question of whether that includes some non-Christians, or whether some nominal Christians (up to and including apostles) count among the impenitents, is a different topic: a non-universalist (like Lewis) could hold both other ideas; a purgatorial universalist doesn’t necessarily have to hold either.
The extra steps to holding those extra details, in other words, are not extra steps for purga-u per se.
True, but not a step from ECT to purga-u. Basically my answer would be, and is (in effect) when I’m asked: “I’m not stepping there, I’m stepping here.” Explaining that I didn’t step over there when stepping here, is entirely different from actually stepping over there before stepping here.
The Baptists I’ve talked to have had problems, and would need multiple steps to accept any kind of universalism per se, but not multiple steps to arrive at one kind of hell instead of another kind of hell. I didn’t have any extra steps on that: one kind of lake of fire, another kind of lake of fire. Only one step needed – on that topic. Other topics necessarily involve other steps.
For example, there could be any number of steps before someone steps from believing any kind of post-mortem inconvenience is true to believing there is no post-mortem inconveniences or unpleasantnesses for anyone ever at all. But that step itself is only one step. It would be inaccurate of me to treat that step itself as multiple steps. Naturally if someone passed through that first to purga-u, that would be two steps, but the step from no p-m inconvenience to a remedial p-m inconvenience would be itself only one step, just like a step from some kind of hopelessly final p-m inconvenience to any kind of remedial p-m inconvenience would be one step. If someone went beyond ultra-u to, for example, Eastern Orthodoxy, that would probably involve a number of other steps, adjusting for details, but it would be inaccurate of me to treat those further steps as extra steps from ECT to ultra-u.
There is soooo much engrained religiosity within evangelicalism where too many have been trained in fear to where they’ve lost touch with reality and can no longer simply smile for fear of reflecting any degree of humour, or dare I say “FUN”… it’s like they’ve been baptised in lemon juice.
As to Rev 13:16-17… it is NOT talking about us, nor our time, but theirs and then. Consider this from David Chilton:
This last letter of the Hebrew alphabet tav (or taw, depending on who you’re reading) as indicated above was indeed a “+”, a cross; but also shaped like an “X” in the most ancient Hebrew scripts. Again, something probably not lost on the early church, where in Greek the “X” is the first letter of <Χριστός> “Christos”.
That Israel had indeed sold out to Rome is plainly stated here…
I’d say excellent. Technically when he wrote this work he was a partial prêterist i.e., he still expected a future to us ‘return of Christ’… he subsequently embraced full prêterism (he is since deceased). I like the book because it’s a good and thorough introduction into a prêteristic way of understanding biblical prophecy… and given that most folk who enquire into it usually hold to some degree of partial prêterist belief without probably realising it.
Yes, you are misunderstanding me. Let me quote from “The Shack” (loosely). The protagonist says to the Jesus character: “Does that mean that all roads lead to You?” and the Jesus character responds, “No. Most roads lead nowhere at all, but regardless of that, I will find you down whatever road you may have lost yourself.”
That doesn’t say exactly what I was thinking, but it does eloquently describe my position on the “all roads” fallacy.
As I said earlier, scripture clearly describes God revealing Himself to those who have not had the advantage of Abrahamic teachings. That said, the revelation must and will lead them ultimately to the Father through the Son, Jesus Christ. I would liken it to gently leading a horse toward the water by blocking some paths and making other paths more attractive. The horse doesn’t know what you’re doing and no, you’re not giving the horse ultimate truth (ie: ‘the water is that way’) because the horse isn’t able to understand ultimate truth. Nevertheless, you are revealing something to the horse–to whit–you are encouraging it to take perhaps the left path rather than the right. The goal is to get the horse to the water (Jesus). It’s likely that the horse will not take the shortest route nor the traditional route; you can still get it to the water though, if you’re patient and wise.
God reveals Himself to all. As John said, " . . . that was the true light, that lights every man that comes into the world . . ." It’s somewhat important to know that scholars believe we ought to have used a sentence structure more like " . . . that was the true light coming into the world, that lights every man . . ." The second makes it clear that it was the Light coming into the world, lighting every human. EVERY human. If Jesus lights you, btw, you are LIT. You don’t get to stay unlit–not because you’ve lost your free will, but just because, well, there’s the Light. It doesn’t take away your freedom just because you can’t avoid seeing the SON, and seeing everything else BY the SON. (I’m comparing the Son with the sun here, and it is, I think, a very apt comparison. Jesus is the light; without Him, we walk in darkness. When the sun rises, anyone with eyesight will become MORE, not LESS free, and WILL see by the light of the sun. It can’t be helped. Likewise when the Son comes into the world and lights all humans, all humans will see BY the light of the Son. He lights EVERY man.
So yes, I stand by my statement. God reveals Himself to everyone sooner or later. Some people get the first glimmers of their understanding without ever hearing the name of Jesus. That light comes FROM Jesus, just as the light they see when they see Him directly also comes from Jesus.
I hope that makes it more and not less clear. Some of the things I want to say are very difficult to express–at least they are for me.
What do you think The Lord Jesus Christ meant when he said:
MATTHEW 5:17-20:
-17: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
-18: For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
-19: Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
-20: For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
That’s a little harsh, people come on the internet all the time doubting their salvation.
Well fear fully prevents me from embracing Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) / Annihilation for that reason.
The Bible makes it clear that there will be a New Earth and a New Heaven:
REVELATION 21:1:
-1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Surely you don’t believe this current Earth will remain literally forever and sin will never be fully destroyed?
Holiness is still God’s essence though, and God’s Holiness is talked about more than God’s love:
LEVITICUS 20:26:
-26: And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
1 PETER 1:16:
-16: Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
And there are verses in Psalms that clearly say God hates people:
PSALM 5:5:
-5: The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
PSALM 10:3:
-3: For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth. (Abhor is another word for hate)
PSALM 11:5:
-5: The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.
Well what does it mean then. Remember:
HEBREWS 9:27:
-27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Honestly, Preterism sounds like an excuse to ignore certain scriptures.
REVELATION 1:7:
-7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Has this happened yet?
[tag]Cindy Skillman[/tag]
So could what you are saying be compared to these testimonies of Muslims having visions of Jesus?
If so, sorry for misreading your earlier comment, it’s fear stemming from the overwhelming number of Universalists denying The Trinity and free will as I fear all Universalits are believing some serious errors, whether it be Unitarianism, Calvinistic Predetermination, Ultra-Universalism (no post-mortem punishement Universalism) or Preterism. Obviously not everyone is going be 100% right on doctrine, but those things I listed above are not just simple doctrnial errors, but are serious issues, in the case of Ultra-Universalism, heretical.
With that being said, after having a vision of The Lord Jesus Christ, the person should abandon all ties to their previous false religion (which is idolatry), so your explanation that someone in a false religion had Jesus revealed to them and that’s why people are finding Universal Salvation in paganism doesn’t hold up there.
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15** who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel**. Romans 2
I think your post communicares very well Cindy, things that are commended in the conscience of every person by the Holy Spirit, that God is just, and that every person has that imprint in their conscience- whether their knowledge is full or in part, or even in ignorance,
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1
Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christis Lord(Phil 2) because “As in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive- but each in his own order”.
Regardless of the time, or the age, in mortal life, or in the age to come, God has a plan for every person to see Jesus Christ, the radiance of the Fathers glory and the exact representation of His nature"(Heb 1)- and bow before Him. We cannot judge because we do not know the secrets of the heart, but God does…
19Nevertheless, God’s firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord must turn away from iniquity. 2 Tim 2
The Lord knows those that are His, He sees the secrets of the heart, and when time is complete, all will have been gathered into one in Christ(Eph 1:9-11) so that God may become “all in all”(1 Cor 15:28)
“For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things to whom be the glry though all the generations of the ages of the ages”(Rom 11:32-36)
As Jesus Himself said, “If I be lifted up I will draw all men unto me” John 12:32
Good point with verses 25-27, but it doesn’t clearly say all will be saved.
True
EZEKIEL 18:23:
-23: Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
But still, how does a universalist explain the verses in Psalms where it says God hates people?
I have heard someone say they are mistranslated and uses the Greek Septuagint to prove it, but it sounds too convenient to me which goes back the the whole “itching ears” thing, it sounds too convenient to me that all the bad things in Christianity (Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT), Fun is a Sin, God Hates People, etc) are all ministrations are false.
What verses do you think Futurists ignore?
Did every eye see that?
Read Revelation 1:7 again:
REVELATION 1:7:
-7: Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
It says “and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.”
Well… As a historical premillenialist, and NON-preterist, I wouldn’t go so far as to say Preterists ignore particular scriptures. What they do, in my opinion, is to give them a far-out interpretation, while assessing those who take the scriptures for what they say, as “literalists.” So while I agree with you about Revelation 1:7, the full preterist believes Christ returned in 70 A.D., and that every prophecy was fulfilled then. One would think that the words “every eye shall see him” would be sufficient evidence that Christ’s second coming has not yet occurred. Clearly it is not the case that every eye saw him in 70 A.D. or there would be some historical record of Christ having appeared at that time. But that fact doesn’t faze the full preterist. He simply affirms that the expression “every eye shall see him” is figurative. Indeed they seem to use the figurative tack to deal with every prophecy that has not yet occurred, in order to make it fit the “everything happened in 70 A.D” paradigm.
This IMO is too simplistic a besmirching and mischaracterisation of prêterism… ALL fields of eschatological study interpret the prophetic BOTH literally AND figuratively… the ONLY difference is the particular mix of this and the justification as to why, where and how this happens.
Even you are not averse to using “figurative” language when it suits an argument, as is seen HERE…
So again it comes down to the balance as to HOW these are used… and as such my estimation is the a prêteristic rationale does less violence to the text and common sense as it takes into account historical narrative, i.e., Yahweh came in Judgement via external military force, as per the Assyrian Tiglath-Pileser III (1Chron 5:25-26), the Chaldean Nebuchadnezzar (1Chron 6:15; Ezra 5:12) and the Roman Titus (Lk 21:20-24), etc.
Oh okay, still don’t know what do with verses 29-30:
-29: And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
-30: But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
MATTHEW 19:29-30:
-29: And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.
-30: But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
Sounds a little too convenient for me, kind of like how if something tastes really good, it’s usually hot healthy.
As for Matthew 5:43-48, one Christian put it this way about God loving his enemies in this YouTube video: youtube.com/watch?v=1VNJwDjBjAU
This Christian is a Calvinist, and Calvinism is a wicked doctrine, and when hyper-Calvinism comes into the question, it removes all purpose to life, HOWEVER, there is an objection here and in order to destroy every pillar holding up Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) / Annihilationism must be destroyed in order to move to a theology that completely changes the way you view God.
HOWEVER, Robert Morey’s arguments can be refuted with Luke 6:35:
LUKE 6:35:
-35: But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
HOWEVER, I quote from a website called Soulwinning.info (link - soulwinning.info/) “Albeit, God’s longsuffering and patience won’t endure indefinitely.”, well the problem with that quote is that the Bible says the exact opposite for that:
PSALM 136:
-1: O give thanks unto the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy endureth for ever.
-2: O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.
-3: O give thanks to the Lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.
-4: To him who alone doeth great wonders: for his mercy endureth for ever.
-5: To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
-6: To him that stretched out the earth above the waters: for his mercy endureth for ever.
-7: To him that made great lights: for his mercy endureth for ever:
-8: The sun to rule by day: for his mercy endureth for ever:
-9: The moon and stars to rule by night: for his mercy endureth for ever.
HOWEVER, if “everlasting punishment” doesn’t mean everlasting punishment in Matthew 25:46, how can we be sure that “his mercy endureth for eve” means His mercy endures forever in Psalm 136?
These verses about events having soon do not prove Preterism, we are living in the last times and things have to happen soon because it’s the last age prior to judgement, the Church Age, the age between The Lord Jesus Christ walking the earth and the end of the Current Heaven and Current Earth.
How to you interpret “every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him” then?
This sums up why I see Preterism as an excuse to ignore certain scriptures, but Preterism also ignores end times warning, for example, this world is clearly heading towards a cashless society (or physical currencyless society) which will pave the way for the Mark of the Beast that one can’t buy or sell without:
REVELATION 13:16-17:
-16: And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
-17: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Yet to a Preterist, this verse has NO application today.
Your welcome, I was just tagging everyone for consistency though sorry. For those who don’t want to be tagged, just let me know and I will just type @[YOUR NAME] instead of clicking on the ‘Tag’ button.
One could actually argue that “many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first” is talking about Universal Salvation.
Well:
JAMES 2:14-24:
-14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
-15: If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
-16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
-17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
-18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
-19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
-20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
-21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
-22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
-23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
-24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
It gives me little comfort that the two examples here are feeding the homeless (something I would do if I had the faith that God would provide for me, please pray I can get that faith) and offering up your own son on the altar (something I could never see myself doing if I had a son).
I know this is not taking about salvation BY works, but works BECAUSE of salvation, but still, right now I lack the faith to feed every homeless person I see because I am worried about getting detained by US customs even with the money I have now, and I would be even more worried with less money.
I would have to watch it again when I’m not at school, but what I remember can be summed up with the following?
-Loving your enemies is compared being kind to prisoners of war (by feeding them, etc), please don’t quote me here, I need to watch the video again when I’m home.
-The Lord Jesus Christ didn’t love his enemies when he whipped them and called them vipers, full of dead mans bones, etc
I will be honest, I am ready to say that if God doesn’t have a plan to save all, there is no purpose to life.
This isn’t really much of an answer, is there any way to actually know?
Poetically or not, it still has to been something the same as or similar to what it says literally.
STT, you seem to be overly preoccupied with giving to the homeless. I don’t think that God expects one to simply give away all of his/her possessions. This would be totally unreasonable. First and foremost, we must be responsible and be able to provide for ourselves. If not, we end up poor and having to throw ourselves on the mercy of others. The example of the rich young ruler was directed at someone whom I would say, had a love for money. The moral of the story is somewhat similar to " A Christmas Carol" by Charles Dickens, in which the Scrooge had no life because he was a miser, and his love for money consumed him.
On another note, I don’t think God instructed Abraham to kill his son upon an altar. This would be murder. I believe the story may have some spiritual significance to it. However, it should not be taken literally.
AND - speaking of interpretation and such - Bob Wilson’s articles are a huge help - here’s one 'Reading the Bible as Jesus Did". You’ll find Bob at the top of the top of the intro page with the other heavies. I say that with respect.
Well one could argue that I have a love for money because I am holding on to it rather than giving it away and trusting God to provide, something I wish I could do but lack the faith to do so - please pray that I can have that faith.
LUKE 12:31-34:
-31: But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
-32: Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
-33: Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
-34: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
One could argue that the last being first and the first being last is related to all being made alive each in their own order in 1 Corinthians 15:
1 CORINTHIANS 15:22-28:
-22: For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
-23: But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
-24: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
-25: For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
-26: The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
-27: For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
-28: And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
HOWEVER, these verses talks about an enemy being destroyed, granted it’s an entity, but one could see this as the other enemies being put under The Lord Jesus Christ’s feet = the enemies being destroyed (annihilated).
I hope you are not writing off the book of James because of this, James doesn’t contradict Paul, James is not talking about working FOR salvation, but working AS A RESULT OF salvation.
Martin Luther not only tried to remove the Book of James, but also the Book of Hebrews, the Book of Jude and the Book of Revelation, what does the Bible have to say about this:
REVELATION 22:19:
-19: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
2 TIMOTHY 3:16-17:
-16: All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
-17: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
Also, Martin Luther was a Calvinist, believed in limited atonement, and denied free will:
MARTIN LUTHER:
-“This error of free will is a special doctrine of the Antichrist”
I do, but my fiancee lives in the United States and I am going over to visit for 6 weeks and 5 days for Christmas, and I am only taking $600 (which will be fine because accommodation is sorted and the only food I need to pay for is when we go on dates), so I fear that if I give away money, I will be detained by US Customs because they will be suspicious of why I am carrying little money. I should be able to be doing this:
LUKE 12:31-34:
-31: But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
-32: Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
-33: Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
-34: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
…and trust God to take care of it, but I lack the faith - please pray that I get it (sorry I keep repeating that but you never know what new readers there might be).
Well Robert Morey (the Christian in the YouTube video) said The Lord Jesus Christ wasn’t be loving to the people he was whipping, he didn’t say that Jesus clearing the temple wasn’t a loving act.
-God is Holy, not is not just love
-True
-This is compatible with Annihilationism - not so much Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) because chances are people will be cursing God for eternity.
-True
-True
Well we will leave it at that then, HOWEVER, I will put in that God came down on a cherub in David’s mind, and the earth was laid bare because in a poetic sense because God scattered David’s enemies (Psalm 18:14-15).
Yet Preterism can’t give an explanation for “every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him”.
[tag]DaveB[/tag]
Thank you for the link, I can’t look at it right now, but I will when I get a chance.
Read through some Quora Q and A, like:
